Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Marika Zonkman. She is a medical affairs executive coach from the Medical Affairs Leadership Institute, which is her company, and she talks to us about why MSL should have a personal board of directors. So interesting concept. Hope you guys enjoy the conversation. Don't forget to check us out on MSL talk live, which is on Clubhouse the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Connect with you on LinkedIn, follow us on Instagram, and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Marika. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Hey, Tom. How are you? I'm doing wonderful. Awesome. I'm really glad that you're here and, excited. I think this is an interesting topic, and this was something that you had brought up to me.
So, guys, for you guys listening, I know Marika for a while, and we ran into each other at MAPS. And that's how this whole conversation got started. And we're gonna talk about why it's important for MSLs to have a personal board of directors. But before we do that, why don't we do an intro to everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? It's a, great. Thank you, Tom. So my name is Marieke Yonghmang.
I'm an executive coach at the Medical Affairs Leadership Institute, and I'm also a fellow at Harvard medical school, where I look at the neuroscience of executive coaching through the lens of emotional intelligence basically means I'm looking at a lot of MRIs. Wow. Well, interesting. And, and I know you were an MSL. Right? So you your background tell us a little bit of your background in your career because I know that you came from field medical. Correct?
Yeah. Yeah. So I have a a really nonlinear career in in many, many ways. So when I grew up, I had a childhood friend who passed away from acute lymphoblastic leukemia, and that had such a profound impact on, on me. So I went into pharmacy school, did my PhD in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. I already always said like, you know, give me math and I'm, I'm happy, which is the opposite obviously of what I'm doing at the moment.
But then I went into clinical developments very much into, you know, basket trials, umbrella trials, and you know, how to make those very effective for, patients and get the drug to markets sooner. While I was, in 2015, I was volunteering at Cornell Veterinary School, and they were launching a beta project in the what is now the Johnson Cornell Health Executive MBA. So I did some of their beta courses, and most of them were focused on coaching and leadership development.
And that's really where when kind of the flame started for coaching for me. That was also the time I moved into fields medical because I wasn't quite satisfied. I knew I was making an impact, but I thought in field medical, we could make a much greater impact on, you know, patient outcomes. So that's really what my motivation was to, field medical. I did, you know, I worked for a lot of, not a lot, a couple of small companies.
I love working with small companies because it's very dynamic dynamic. Then the pandemic hits, you know, of course. And that was also the time that I finished my certification. I became first in, ACC with the International Coaching Federation. I'm now a PCC professional certified coach, and I'm working on becoming a master certified coach. And, you know, I'm also at at Harvard looking at their hearts. That's very nonlinear. I just hope I'm smart enough to keep up in this conversation.
Oh, I I mean I know you will. No. I'm kidding. So, but those those are great credentials. I'm glad that you came on. So let's get into this. So I this is a new concept to me is having your own personal board of directors. So can you explain that? Like, what what exactly does that look like? What does that mean? Yeah. That's a a personal board of directors can be incredibly powerful.
Basically, it's like an unofficial group of guides or a team of about, you know, say 5 to 8 people that you can turn to when you have certain questions or concern. You know, this group of people, you know, they're here to help you, but they have a very wide range of insights that is much beyond, you know, what one person, can do. You know, organizations have boards of, directors because they benefit from knowledge and experiences of of, you know, a variety of advisers.
So when you are navigating your career, when you are trying to get into a career or, you know, stay in what is a very rewarding career for you, it's very important that you surround yourself with people who can help you at different aspects. And it's it's sort of, you know, kind of a little bit like having multiple mentors.
So if you're very serious about progressing your career, you kind of have to make sure you you kind of tap into the biggest, broadest, you know, possible base of of experiences and and insights. So say if you're at the beginning of your MSL career, you know, it's really important to have an experienced MSL, you know, that you can turn to with questions.
But also, for instance, somebody who works in medical information, because that's an entirely different perspective or, you know, clinical, because that too has an impact on how you can can do your job. And when you understand a better, you can provide better, insights. So having this broad range of people around you can really, you know, benefit you.
They can give you feedback and, you know, tell you about the pitfalls of of, you know, where your career, you know, where are you, you know, lacking certain certain things they can objectively tell you. Yeah. So, like, as I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about this, I I'm thinking about no different maybe from being a business owner. So as a business owner, I have an accountant. I have a lawyer. I have an insurance guy.
So there's people that I've aligned myself with that support my ability to run my business and be successful in what I do. Is it the same concept? Is that what you're looking to do? You're an MSL and you're trying to find these different experts that can be there to help you navigate through your career? Yeah. Exactly. That's your you hit the nail on the head. Okay. And so would the would you consider these folks mentors? Is is is that like, we say board of directors.
Is that is that just another way of saying that? Because it's almost like you have your own posse. Right? So you're developing your people. Right. Right. Right. So was this but is it a collection of mentors? Is that the right way to look at it? Yes. And maybe no. So mentors are, you know, incredibly valuable. That's when you have a good mentor, you know, you really should cherish them very, you know, very much.
But mentors are, you know, it's more singular and it's, you know, they're often not easy to find because it's so time consuming. So it's both time consuming for the mentee, but also for the mentor. Now with a board of directors, the approach is kind of different, because you have a wider range of people. It allows you to make much smaller asks and therefore it can be less daunting on the people that you ask to Say for instance, if somebody comes up to me and say, like, hey.
Will you be my mentor? And can I talk to you for an hour, you know, once a month? It's very different when somebody comes to me and says, like, hey. This is my objective, and I'm having this obstacle. Can I brainstorm with you, you know, once or twice a year? You know, that's a very different, approach. So, requesting, you know, occasional inputs on a specific, you know, area is is just not as intense as a one on one relationship you have with with a mentor.
Now that doesn't mean that this person can can't become a mentor. I have one, one of those that really, you know, when I started out with my career was just, you know, an occasional sound sounding warrant. And now we are talking on a very regular basis, and it's much more, you know, broader.
So even though I have a mentor and even if you have a mentor, having other board of directors, can be very helpful because there's not one person that can exactly, you know, live your life and see exactly all the obstacles. And, you know, we don't all know know it. So Mhmm. Yeah. More people is is more helpful. Okay. So then can you elaborate for us on who MSL should be reaching out to?
Not by not obviously, not people, but types of functional roles and people with different responsibilities and titles. Like, what if you can elaborate, would people really want to have on their board of directors? Yeah. That's a great, great question. And it it it also depends a little bit. It's a little bit, you know, situational and individual, and it also will change over time. And, you know, that's that's okay.
Say if you're, you know, very early career, you're just, starting and you don't really know all the aspects of what it takes to be in be an MSL, you know, getting, you know, a couple experience in the sales may be very, you know, helpful, for you. Whereas when you're progressing to your, through your career and you want to see more options in where you want to be in 3 years or 5 years, you may want to expand to 2 different departments and, and, you know, more leader, leader types.
So the first thing you really have to think about is, you know, where do you wanna go? What what is, you know, what is your goal? That's, and then when you have your goal, think very think about, you know, what are the opportunities you have to reach that goal? But where are your obstacles? You know, where's the knowledge gaps or the skills gaps or, you know, and who can help you fill those particular gaps and maybe, you know, you don't, you don't know what you don't know.
So sometimes it's very helpful to, to just have a person very objectively talk with you about that. And I also want to caution because there's one mistake that we often make, and that's that we are that we rely on close friends and family to give us advice. And they are biased. And that's, you know, your family, your friends, they always want to have, you know, your best interest at heart. And so it can be difficult to see, you know, what you may need.
So having somebody who's a little bit more distance, can more objectively, look at that and see, you know, hey, these are the steps you need to take in your career if you want to advance to what what your goal, goal is. Just like like you said previously, companies seek, you know, different board members. You know, you need somebody for IT or maybe, you know, sales marketing, as as a company. So make make it a mix. So you you spend some time with yourself. You decide, okay. Here are my goals.
Here are where I think my gaps are. Here's where some of the challenges I'm having. Let me go see if I could seek out some folks to to be on my board of directors. So then how do you approach these people? That's a that's a very, very good and and very, you know, tricky question, of of course. And and it can be very hard for for for anybody to just reach out. So the first thing I would do is, like, who in your close environments, who do you already know, and who do you admire for for this?
And and I, again, I wouldn't get too close, but, you know, say, your uncle's best friend is great at, you know, investing, you know, something. That's investing, you know, your your money. That's somebody far enough, but close close enough that you can can reach out to. So, you know, see if you can get get an introduction. A warm lead, of course, is always better than a, you know, cold call. But, you know, sometimes you have to do do that cold call.
So when you have identified, you know, the right person, for you, I usually, you know, send a message in email, or, you know, message on LinkedIn. And I simply ask, you know, I'm very clear about, you know, why I asked them, you know, I say, hey, these are some of my goals. This is where these are my obstacles, and this is what I'm struggling with. And, you know, are you willing to spend some time with me and reflect on this and maybe help me help me forward?
You know, I I try to be as clear as I possibly can from the relationship. Of course, you know, I also bend over backwards to make sure that I add value to to the relationship as well, that we make this a 2 two way, two way streets. Maybe not necessarily at this particular time, but in the future, I will make sure that's, you know, they have value from from this. Yeah. I think that's a really important point.
I think that LinkedIn's first of all, great tool to reach out to folks and break the ice if you don't totally know the person. I think that it's really important, like you said, try to name drop and use someone's name, you know, so and so. Tom Caravella told me to reach out to you. He said you'd be a great person for this, or you're an expert. I think it's always nice to offer a compliment right off the bat. It makes people feel good. But I would I would I agree with what you're saying.
I think it's gotta be a two way street. You can't come in like a steamroller and say, hey, I have all these problems, and I need your help. When can you be available? I think it's more like, hey. You know, got your name from so and so, mutual friend. I'm really impressed with your background. I know you're an expert in this. I was hoping maybe we can have a quick conversation. Perhaps I could be of help to you in the future as well. Whatever. Because I think that that disarms people.
It makes them say, oh, okay. Yeah. And now you now become a part of their personal board of directors or at least a part of their network, for lack of a better word. Does that make sense? Yeah. That makes total sense. And I agree with you too. You know, expect there's a difference between expectations and agreements. You know, when you have expectations, you set yourself up for, disappointment.
Whereas if when you create agreements, you know, with with people, you have a mutual, you know, satisfaction, you know, benefit from Right. Yeah. So let's let's fast forward a second and say that you have been successful in establishing this board of directors, whether it's you're still building it or you have enough people that are on it that you're kind of up and running. What would you say someone's expectations should be? What does that relationship look like?
How often are you talking to them? What what does that look like? Yeah. So that really has to to be that, agreements that you have with your, you know, director, so so to speak. And to just for me, there's some that I only talk with, like, once or twice a year. Sometimes, you know, I just had a particular issue and it was really, you know, taking up a lot of space within in my mind.
And I spoke with my one, you know, director probably, I don't know, 3 times within in 1 week, but then, you know, we hadn't spoken for about a year, you know, be before that. So contrary to, you know, official mentorship where you really have set times that you bring up, things for me, it's really more like, Hey, you know, say for, for instance, Tom, you're, you're part of my board of directors. I would send you a message like, Hey, Tom, any chance we could, catch up?
I have this particular problem. I want to bounce off, with you. And then we find a time that mutual, agrees. So, and I, what's very good about your question too. It's not like everybody has to come together, you know, in an official meeting. You know, you don't even have to necessarily tell them, you know, hey, you're on my board of directors, but more like, oh, well, you know, can we have this conversation, quickly? Yeah. It's like you're building your network of trusted advisers. Right.
Making it reciprocal. And then you keep in touch with those folks over the course of the year. They help you. You help them. I would probably even suggest seeking out ways to try to do favors for these folks and be a good resource for them whenever possible because then you feel better about that reciprocal nature of the relationship.
So that when you do have a problem and you go to reach out to them, there's a sense of indebtedness because you've held up your your end of the bargain in that relationship. Do you agree with that? Yeah. And and I would say if you're in it for all the right reasons, you know, everybody wants to help somebody else. You know? That's our human nature. We're always happy to help, other people. But over time, these relationships really grow into a mutual, you know, relation to a street.
And it's really wonderful, you know, to see. Of course, some relationships, you know, as you're progressing through your career, you know, some may fall off a little bit, others get a little bit stronger. But that's just the nature of most relationships. Right? Well, absolutely. And I think that that it this concept may even start with your manager. And what I mean by that is I think that you'd need to be aware of what your gaps are, like you said before, maybe what your developmental needs are.
And if your manager's clear in their one, you know, 1 on 1 sessions or reviews or whatever, and you realize that there's some areas of improvement. Well, you start with your manager. Your manager can be a good resource. But then as you know what some of these gaps are, and maybe there's blind spots that you have that you'd be All of a sudden, you become aware that you have this blind spot. Well, who might be able to help you with that?
Think about who you admire, who's maybe they're on your team. Maybe they're on another team. Maybe you saw somebody in, on a video or podcast or some somebody at a conference, And that person might be in position to help you with that blind spot or with that gap. That is, I think, how you build up your network. At least, that's what I'm thinking through. Am I oversimplifying this? No. Not not necessarily. I think, you know, your manager and your peers can be very important sources of feedback.
Sometimes it's hard to then discuss the obstacles that you have, you know, with, you know, having some reservations, some people get a little, you know, defensive. But then to find, you know, once you have that feedback, find others, you know, outside where you can bounce that off and who can give you real, you know, solid additional feedback and how you can overcome those obstacles and turn them into opportunities.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I wanna point out that we recently did I did an episode on informational interviews, which I thought was really good. And it's it ties into this because the I the concept behind inter informational interviews is you're going to somebody, whether it's someone on your board of directors or somebody that's a mentor or somebody that's a, you know, just a colleague.
And you're setting up some time to basically set up this an informational interview to learn about something, whatever it might be, whether it's an opportunity, a specific job, job function, or a part of the job. So that's I, you know, kind of a shameless plug for people to go listen to that episode because I think it really ties into what we're talking about. I'll be honest with you. I wasn't totally aware of the fact that there was a formal word for what that was.
I just thought it was a conversation with a mentor. But I also didn't wasn't aware that there was such a thing as a personal board of directors. So I'm learning through this through this podcast. What else can you tell us, Marika, about this personal board of directors? As you look at your career and you grow your career, what is there a goal? I mean, do you wanna have 6 people, 8 people, 10 people on this personal board of directors at all time? Like, where does this go?
Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, speaking from a personal perspective, like I said, my career was nonlinear, you know, clinical, field medical, you know, coaching. There have been lots of, lots of changes over over the years, which also mean meant that, you know, different people contributed at different times, you know, different amounts, to me. So I think it's very important, that you reevaluate.
We had this conversation, I think maybe a year or so ago where you you said that, you know, you're you should review review your resume on a quarterly basis. Likewise, you should review your goals, on a quarterly basis and and see, you know, where where are you going and trying to find, you know, people to help you in those particular, things. So, yeah, I I have about, you know, I think 7 people that's, contributes, you know, to my career, to my development.
And I'm, of course, very grateful for for them. And, but over time, that also has has changed. And likewise, I have contributed to other people. But now I'm not contributing as much because, you know, I went into a different direction, and I don't have as much to add, you know, to their lives at their at the moment. And do you and I'm just curious, like, with your own personal board of directors. So you have 7 people on your board of directors.
Do you I mean, do you send them, you know, gifts during the holidays? Do you send them cards? Do you keep in touch with them? Like, obviously, you wanna nurture this relationship because it's important. So what advice do you have for people to just stay ahead of that relationship? Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's a great question. So I'm a very big postcard writer. Okay. I really I really enjoy receiving and writing postcards.
So, yes, for, you know, Easter, I send Easter cards, you know, or or, you know, text messages with, you know, a little gift. I don't necessarily send gifts for Christmas, birthdays, of course, if I know anniversaries or, you know, family members when they are, you know, having important, things, I always make sure that I, you know, reach out and say, like, hey, you know, congratulations, or happy birthday, or, you know, happy, whatever the holiday is that they, sell it to celebrate.
Yes. Well, I think in this day and age, it's so easy to do that, because we have text. And there's LinkedIn. So when someone announces that they just got a new job, it's so easy to congratulate them and wish them well through LinkedIn, or through text. And there's bitmojis and there's emojis, and there's all these emo these OGs that you can send to people to put a smile on their face.
And I think that that's just really important because, you know, staying in front of your network, I think, is vital to the success of your career long term, not just with your board of directors, but with anyone in your network. You wanna make sure that you stay relevant to them, and you stay visible to them. So I think it's important to kinda take time each, you know, whether it's each week, each month, but definitely at least a couple of times a year.
Just like you said, you wanna revisit your resume or your CV on a regular basis. You wanna make sure you revisit your network of contacts, board of directors on a regular basis, including and especially I think the holidays are really important. You don't wanna forget people during the holidays. So final thoughts. What other advice do you have for folks as they're developing their career, and they're looking to be successful MSLs. Yeah. Don't hesitate to reach out.
Okay. That's, that's one of the things that I always use. See people have this, you know, a little bit of hesitation about, you know, reaching out to to people. And I just say no is what you already got. And yes, you know, it's something you can can get. That's a and it's a perfectly okay for somebody to say no. But, you know, who knows? Maybe you'll get a yes. So don't don't I think that's great advice. Yeah. Don't hesitate to reach out. Yeah. That's awesome.
Well, I appreciate this was a very interesting conversation. And it's made me think like, oh, geez, I think I gotta up my game with this stuff. So thank you for coming on, Rika. This was awesome. I appreciate you. And we'll have to do it again sometime. Wonderful. Thank you very much for having me. And as always, I love your podcast. Thank you so much. Alright. We'll see you soon. Take care, everybody.
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