Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guests today are George Lehman. He is a medical liaison with Novo Nordisk. And Sierra Birch, she's a molecular science liaison with Caris Life Sciences. And we talk about how they collaborated together to land their first MSL roles. So it's their story of partnership and collaboration. We call it why go alone. And I have to tell you, this is amazing, amazing content and advice, from 2 people that both landed their 1st MSL positions.
I think you guys are really gonna love it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn if you don't already. Check us out on MSL talk live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST, and that's on LinkedIn live. And then also check out our episodes on YouTube. So all of the MSL talk podcast go up on YouTube. Check those out as well. And thank you all for joining us. Really appreciate you being here.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hello, guys. Welcome, Sierra, and welcome, George. How are you guys doing? Great. Happy to be here. I'm not a morning person, but for you too, I made it work. I made it work. I love that. Georgie, how you doing, brother? I am excited. I am healthy. I am grateful, and I am really surprised. And with I mean, I'm I'm really excited to be on this podcast today.
Well, let me let me as you guys know, I like to do give you a little history. So I actually know George. I know George both George and Sierra, but I know George Longer, and he is someone that, we he found this podcast, started following. We had connected. We have kept in touch. He's gotten his MSL role, and, he's someone that I consider a friend. I've gotten to meet him live, and, he and Sierra reached out with this amazing idea. And where their story is amazing.
Like, I can't wait to share this story with you guys. I think you'll love it. So that's how this whole thing came about. I also do want to real quick thank everyone. We are just about at a milestone. We're we're getting inching very close to 250,000 listeners to this podcast, and that's in, like, 80 countries. So I just wanna thank everyone for your support, for sharing this podcast, for listening to it, and for making it what it is today.
Couldn't definitely not have done it without all of you and obviously all the great guests. So without further ado, let's do introductions. So, Sierra, let's start with you. You can introduce yourself. Sure. Good morning. I'm really excited to be here. So my name is Sierra Burch. I'm a PhD by training. So I, actually am a Pennsylvania native, was raised by a wonderful mom of 3, and she helped cultivate my love for biology my entire life.
And I followed that passion all throughout school and actually made the brave track from Pennsylvania to Oregon, where I attended Oregon Health and Science to get my doctorate in biochemistry and molecular biology. So got a nice foundation with protein structure function relationships, gene regulations, but then I wanted to switch gears after that. Well, then I convinced my postdoc adviser that I could transition from this system to this mammalian cell signaling, GPCR pharmacology space. Right?
So kinda completely kinda different system, but there, I got to build an additional layer of, you know, basic research, expertise in, again, pharmacology, cell signaling, and those types. So, after my postdoc, which ended late 2021, I actually got an exciting opportunity to join my current team. So for the past year and about 4 months now, I have been in the precision oncology space. So I'm a medical science liaison at a diagnostic company, Caris Life Sciences.
Still trying to get my handle on the role, but, it's been a wonderful journey, very exciting, and I'm just really honored to be here. And one more thing, I'm a good friend of George's, and I'm a great fan of, MSL Talk. You've done a lot for me, and I've always wanted to thank you in this way. So this is just a dream come true. So I really appreciate it, guys. Well, it means a lot.
And and the fact that you are here and the fact that you landed your first role and that you're doing so well is is exactly why, it's why this podcast exists. So, George, tell us everybody knows who George is. That you he's a man that needs no introduction. I don't believe that, and I should have come before Sierra because my background may not be as well painted. I'm George Lehmann. I am a pharmacist by training. I'm originally from Cameroon, so the accent.
I started off as a science teacher after I got my bachelor's degree in physics. I did that for about 5 years in Cameroon. And in the course of doing that, I also qualified as an accountant. And when I was coming to United States in 2013, I was coming to take the CPA exam and decided because of my father's health at the time, decided to to get into health care and and and through through pharmacy.
So I attended University of Maryland School of Pharmacy in Baltimore, where I graduated in 2020, in the middle of a pandemic. So I never really attended a formal graduation. And I went from there to complete a residency in global formation. That was in Morgantown, West Virginia. That was a collaboration with West Virginia University and Viatoris Pharmaceutical.
And I was lucky to transition after that role to joining the wonderful team here at Novo Nordisk, where I support, the South Texas territory of BCDA ML, Medical liaison, we call it ML. And just to put it out there, the views that I expressed here today, strictly mine. I do not represent Novo Nordisk in this conversation. So really excited to be here, and I'm grateful for the journey I've had with Sierra. And thank you guys both for this amazing idea.
So, guys, we're gonna talk about the title of this episode is why go alone? And we're gonna talk about the story of how George and Sierra teamed up literally to help each other as they were trying to break into their first role as MSLs. So as we get into that story, let's go from the beginning. Like, how do you how did you guys meet? When did you meet? How do you actually know each other? Let's start with you, Sierra. Yes. So, you know, it's it's been so incredible, being a friend of George.
In the short amount of time that we actually got to know each other, it was when I was trying to build my network on LinkedIn, and I had come across all these amazing resources and these professionals, and I had been trying to attend webinars. And, I think there was a particular MSL who is great. I'm still in contact with him. Wonderful person. He was doing a webinar on how to interview and land your first role and so on. And I I think, George, I couldn't get the link.
I didn't have access to this, and I was panicking. I was like, no. No. I need to learn. 18 to learn. So I reached out to him. We had been connected, and he actually helped me out, and he provided the, link to that. So that was just off the bat, me reaching out to someone, and they immediately supported me in helping me further along in my journey. So it was just a really beautiful start and him trying to, support me in that way. So it was in history ever since. I love it.
Yeah. I think George, let's hear your side of the story. Yeah. I think I think it's worth mentioning that super guy, Michael Moore. I'm sure I mean, kudos to him. He does a wonderful job, and I really I'm looking at his journey progressing. I'm sure. Sierra reached out to me. Hey. I did not get the link to this webinar. Do you have it? And I was lucky to be on LinkedIn at the time, and I sent it to her. And her response was lifesaver.
And so since after that response, we've been kind of in the business of saving each other's life, going forward. Then a few weeks after that webinar we attended, I was, going to do a presentation, just, you know, the practicing, trying to show yourself, being out there, be vulnerable. So with Diversity Medical Affairs, it's a group on LinkedIn. I know, Tom, you have presented to that group. So it was my turn to do a presentation, and Sierra offered to do, an introduction.
And it was the most well painted introduction I've ever had in my whole life. I was like, how did this lady know me so much? And in the usual manner of getting feedback, I was like, hey, Sarah. Do you have any feedback for me? I remember in that presentation, I had some issues with some slides. And so when I reached out for feedback, do you have any feedback you can offer me a response with, because I apologized for the issues with the slide?
Sarah's response was anything is forgivable with charm and grace. I was like, okay. Does this lady mean that I had both? Did I have charm? Did I have grace? And so I said to myself, if this is not allyship, what could it be? And so we just started collaborating. She would send me a link to join Clubhouse. These are good rooms on Clubhouse. So she's the one who taught me how to use Clubhouse. And so we would tag team on coming to MSL talk on part, on Clubhouse.
And one of the things we would share before we come in, okay, this is the topic that I'm gonna be discussing. What do you know about this topic? What kind of impactful question can you ask someone? Right? So we would signal back and kiddie chat and have our strategy on how to engage with your audience on Clubhouse, and it worked. And so that's been the the journey, and and it brings me back to a quote I I got from Keith Ferrazzi, in his never eat alone.
It's success equal to people you meet and the things you create together. So my success is at you, Tom, you, Sierra, the people I met, and the things we're creating together. So I'm really excited for where all of this is living. I love it. I love it. Dero's there's another quote that says, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far, go together. And I have to give props to Sarah Snyder on my team. Sarah, actually, I think she posted that quote recently.
I don't know who said it, but, anyway, shout out to Sarah. Alright. So you guys meet and by happenstance, I guess. Right? Now did you plan to do all this together, or did it just happen? I well, let me just continue. I think it just happened. Right? The fact that she reached out, I don't know who else she texted on LinkedIn asking for the link to the webinar. I responded, so we did not plan that encounter. And, honestly, we were in the Dima Diversity Medical Affairs Group.
I didn't reach out to her to ask. I'm sure someone within that group asked for a volunteer who is gonna, introduce our speaker today. So we actually did not plan. We just realized that we had an organic bond to each other, whether we needed to vent, whether we needed to share, some experiences, or share some good people we've met. Right? So we did not. I'm thinking back. I don't know whether there would have been a benefit if we planned it.
I don't know what you think, Sarah, but we actually did not have kind of an agreement issue that we're gonna be be doing. Well, so you whether it was planned or not, you guys got together. Obviously, you had success. So let's let's dissect that a little bit. Let's talk about that. Tell us some of the things that you guys did together to find success in getting yourselves into this MSL position. Yeah. So I can begin with that.
So, again, it really just started with the mutual support, and it seems so so, not a big deal, so insignificant. But when you're in this space where you are maybe you don't have this experience where you, you know, feel like you have these hurdles. Right? If you have somebody who's in your corner, who has similar goals and who has similar motivations, just having that camaraderie alone was, I think, motivating for me because when I began my journey, I had a very minimal network.
I didn't know any MSLs. I didn't know any other aspiring MSLs. So just trying to build that initial camaraderie and bond and start of our connection, I think was really that. And then with the link to the webinar, that was huge because I think before I even applied to anything, I had been to just over I mean, dozens or dozens of webinars over a span of months before I actually applied to these jobs because it was important to soak up knowledge.
So we made sure that we shared knowledge and opportunities for more knowledge with each other. Right? And then in addition to that, we always made sure that we were introducing each other to others. We were making sure that we were on each other about following up with the professionals that we would learn from all the webinars that we attended. Those are some of the things that I think that we kinda worked towards.
And, again, the feedback and the the ranting, feeling like this is not gonna work. I'm not gonna get to where I need to be, but we did it. So what do you think, George? Do you have anything to add to that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have I always have, something to add when it comes to working with Sierra. So we we we would look at each other's LinkedIn. Oh, Tom said, your LinkedIn needs to look this way. Stella, just look at my LinkedIn and give me feedback as a friend. Right?
It's not one of these stupid, accomplished professional who may be giving me kind of an out of of thought feedback. Like, they are so experienced that their feedback on my on my LinkedIn, I may not be able to translate it. So we are she's a PhD. I have a lot of respect for PhD, but we are kind of at the beginning of new phases in our career. So I could easily get feedback from Sierra, and I understand and, okay, what she's talking about.
Then I connect with someone, maybe Sierra Snyder, who is on your group and one of the best person I I I I met through this journey. I'll I'll I'll be there. I'll say, hey. Do you know Sierra? Have you connected with this lady? She's awesome. She's generous with her time. And just get tips on how how a good connection reflect would be. Right? Because some people are sitting, maybe listening to this podcast. They get on LinkedIn. They want to connect with, But what do I tell Tom?
What is my value proposition? So we would exchange note on how do you reach out to people? Do you just say, hello. I'm George. What what what is that message you'd like? Right? And so having someone who, 1, is validating your concerns and your fears. And then the 2 of you can have an approach to tag team. Okay. This is what a good message to someone is. This is what I send. And this is what worked. Right? It just helped us to really synergize our mentors. We were able to have mutual mentors.
Or I don't need to speak with Tom. If Sarah has already spoken, I'm going to speak her brain. Then I'm looking for another person. So those are some things that really helped us to amplify our presence on LinkedIn. I'm going to repost some of the good posts she makes. I can send her, an idea of a post I'm trying to make and get her thoughts, and she would do the same for me. And that was really coaching each other along the way. So I'm excited it worked. Let me tell you. I think it's brilliant.
I think it's absolutely brilliant. First of all, I love the emotional support that you guys gave each other where it was like, I don't know. You know, feel a little down on myself. This may never happen. And you guys are there to support each other emotionally. And then you're sharing best practices. Hey, check out this, this webinar, check out this, you know, podcaster or, you know, the the clubhouse thing, whatever it is.
And then when you get to asking for honest opinions on, on LinkedIn and social media stuff, that becomes a little more tactical. That's like, Hey, if you see anything that doesn't look right, you know, let me know. That's I you don't really get that. And, George, to your point, you can hire a professional to do that, but the professionals is gonna give you a skewed opinion based upon whatever agenda they might have.
Or and it might be genuine where they're trying to help you, but they may not know your situation. Sierra and vice versa, George, you know each other's situation. You know what you're looking to do. You know the market. I just I love the way you were sharing ideas, helping each other, supporting each other, and making, you know, it's like 2 plus 2 doesn't equal 4. 2 +2 equals 5 equals 10. You guys are compounding your knowledge and sharing it with each other.
So I wanna talk about what else did you guys do or learn or come up with that was really beneficial that you wanna share with with the folks listening? Maybe I can take this first. One of the things we we we worked on so I have my set of mentors. He has our set of mentors. Hey, Sierra. Do you have a list of questions and MSL question because that was something I asked all of my mentors. Is there some way I can go to guide to to to guide myself on what are common MSL interview questions?
And then we can exchange those to see, is there something that is coming up over and over? And then we would agree on, yes. This really looks like a good question. Then, hey, Sierra. Do you know a lot about the STAR format for interviewing? That's one of the things my mentor told me. Well, George, I don't think I'm very good at it, but what can we do?
So we can pick a few of those questions, answer them to see whether when I speak to CRM responding to this question, does it really communicate the star? Right? It's not just for me to sit and think it does, but have a friend who would tell me this line in this response and this line really represent the s and the t and the a and r. And we did that for a number of questions. So that was some of the things we did.
The other thing we did, which I think was very helpful, what is this mythical thing called resume, matching or job description matching? Like, how do you match the resume? Because we hear that all the time. But how can we identify what keywords in a job description are? So we can pull a job description, pull another one, and just look at it. What looks like a keyword? I'm not an expert at it. But looking at it from another person, maybe, hey. Look at this.
We're gonna high highlight I'm gonna highlight mine. You highlight yours. And then when we seek to exchange notes, it's the 1st time I'm seeing the things that are important to you. And we can have a conversation and realize, okay. Something, 1, we agreed on. A majority of them has been matured in the relationship. And there were some things that I would miss. I would think it wasn't a keyword, but we would have a conversation.
So just being able to elevate each other, normalize responses to interview questions, I think that was, really helpful contribution to each other. I love that. I love that. Sierra, you have anything to add? Sure. So the question was, what are some things that worked well for us as soon as we're doing our journey? Yes. So one thing I wanted to, touch back on, I love that you said compounding. Compounding the knowledge, the experience because that's really what we did.
You know, I think about my very first informational interview to maybe my last ones and how I actually had to not ask the same questions over and over again. I had to ask deeper questions. I had to get down to the nuances of the role. I had to figure out what were the goals of those informational interviews. So being more strategic with everything that we had to do, I think, was something that we could build up on with each other. So I think that that was one of the most beneficial things.
Visibility on LinkedIn was huge. Engaging with each other, celebrating each other, and making sure that we knew how to showcase our story and our accomplishments and our background on our LinkedIn, I think that was something that we were able to kinda work out together. So it's it we definitely did a lot of, like, really mutually supportive, efforts. So definitely man. I I I'm so impressed by you too. And and I I was excited about this conversation.
But the more I'm talking to you guys, the more it's like warming my heart to hear how you guys got together, how you found success together, how you supported each other, how you you propped each other up and shared this information. We're only halfway through. We still got a lot more to talk about, but I just wanna stop and just let you guys know just how impressed I am and and how much I appreciate your efforts and what you were able to do.
And and and I'm so glad that we're that we're having this conversation. So let's get back to it. We're talking about a lot of things that worked. We're talking about a lot of things that came together. So what challenges did you face? What didn't work as you guys went through this journey? Well, I would I would say, you know, you really have to be authentic and be genuine when you try to expand your network.
There's, you know, really try to have a genuine attempt to connect with someone, whether it be a commonality, a recent accomplishment of theirs, something. So building your network in a way that's genuine instead of just trying to, you know, click, click, click, and try to, you know, connect with everyone. You know, try to be more meaningful about that, I think, is something that you should do instead of the opposite. Right?
And I think, you know, trying to find a bunch of different therapeutic areas and use the same resume to apply to those, it's not gonna work either. So those are some things that we definitely wanted to avoid to begin with. And the challenges is, you know, the, the background your background. So with our roles now, they worked well for us. You have to find the right fit. Right? Before some of them, you might feel like your experience is just not what they're looking for.
So I guess a huge hurdle was, for me particularly, was the, lack of clinical experience. Right? So trying to, effectively leverage what I did have. When I wasn't doing that before, I could see how that was a challenge. So trying to move towards putting out there my transferable skills and attributes is something that I wanted to move forward to, and it just took time. It took months to mature into this. Our my journey took months months before my first role, before I even applied.
So, I'll stop there, George. What was what were some challenges for you or what didn't work? Yeah. Thing number 1 that did not work was my 6th page resume. So that's what I started off. So, in pharmacy school, if you're looking to become a clinical pharmacist, so wanna do a residency, our template is, like, 12 pages long. Right? So, initially, that was where I was going. Then I decided, okay. I don't wanna be a clinical pharmacist for combination reasons.
And for me, to cut my resume to apply for pharmacy fellowships, I had to cut from 12 pages to 6 pages, 4 or 5 pages. Then I have gone 1 year in West Virginia. I've done all this project. I've done all this connection. I have owned my interpersonal skills, and I want to apply for an MSL job. I don't want me to cut it further. Like, I'm moving from 12. I'm moving to 6. And then they someone is telling me you need a 2 to 3 page resume for an MSL role. It felt like an amputation. Right?
So one of the things that did not work was my 12 page resume. My 6 page resume did not work. But the shorter version of it worked. The other thing that did not work was applying to all MSL jobs. It didn't work. It was just a good recipe for burnout. Mhmm. When I had a strategy, or I am interviewing or applying for this number of jobs on this particular times of the week, That worked. The other thing that also did not did not work for me was really just trying to connect with people aimlessly.
Right? Yeah. When I was able what worked after? When I connect I was trying to build my network, and I'm connecting here and there. Then I realized I am taking an informational interview, but the questions are not creating the impact. So I did better with fewer informational interviews. That created more impact for me. Yep. So the more whether it's the length of the resume, the number of applications did not work. The less actually worked.
And while for other pharmacists who are out there coming from clinical practice, pharmacists who are working in other areas, or a very accomplished PhD, MD pharmacist, be ready to take that advice. You have to summarize your resume to the relevant thing. I got my job with the 2 page resume and not with the 6 page resume, but it felt like an amputation. I'll stop there. Those are those are very, very good tips.
The thing I love about you guys sharing those tips is that there are a lot of times when people you learn through experience. You learn from mistakes. So everybody that's listening to this, try to learn from those mistakes. Learn from those. Those are just good that's good advice. They're good best practices of what not to do, because it is it is proven.
And and and you I'm sure you've heard probably me talk about resume matching and, you know, the length of of your resume and and how that works and how to be very specific and highlight your strengths, your therapeutic expertise. Don't just apply randomly to everything and anything. The thing is, sometimes you you hear things and you forget, or sometimes it doesn't resonate or whatever. So I think that it's important that you might have to go back and listen to this again and take notes.
That's that's how important this information is. George, you mentioned the word mentors before. So I wanna get back to that for a second. How important would you say mentors are in this game? Did you say important? Or it is a must. A must. You cannot yes. It is mentorship is a must. You cannot figure it out. I mean, prove me wrong. Send me an email or a message on LinkedIn to say, hey. I got it without a mentor.
But I would say for every aspiring MSL out there and even, seasoned MSL, they still need mentors. Mentors and coaches, I think, that they, we we need throughout our careers. So really getting a good let me use, the word tribe of mentors to really support and coach you through is a must. And you need to be strategic. How am I curating my mentors? Right? It's not just because say get out and get a mentor that you want each or everybody you meet to be a mentor. How many mentors do you have?
That is something that's gonna be determined by you. What is the terms of the mentorship? How often do you meet with your mentors? I had mentors who are my interview prep people. Like, I have an interview coming. Can you prep me? I had other people who are the people looking at my resume. Is it well drafted? Right? So I'm not overwhelming one person. And I also don't want to overwhelm myself by asking for the same help from mentor 1, mentor 2, and mentor 3.
So I'm really trying to be light on your time. If you are the person reviewing my, resume, how about the other person gives me interview prep? If you are the person, who looks at my LinkedIn or help with my development, if I'm looking for extra courses, we are thinking about that kind of development. So again, I go back to say mentorship is a must. Identify your own, few mentors, build a tribe, and really use it. Sierra, I think you would agree with me on this. Oh, absolutely.
I couldn't have said that better myself. And also, you know, there can also be opportunities for mentorship, just like just like George said, it doesn't have to be a mentor, but I've most certainly, in addition to mentors I have and coaches I have, the conversations that I've had with people who have helped me along this way has just been so invaluable.
So I believe that every new us MSL the past couple years is basically starting their role based on the time spent by many other people to help them get there. So, I mean, really seek out those mentors, but also simple exchanges of mentorship. So great well said, George. Well, let's not add again. Just go ahead, George. I'm sorry.
No. I just wanted to add that I have grown to agree that it's always a mentor mentor relationship because at the end of the day, you're surprised by what your mentors get back to you to tell you what you contribute to them. So when you go with that mind, I bring I am bringing my problem, hoping you give me a solution. But in the course of that, I help to solve some other people's problem. Or you get other mentors, you mentor other people. You learn in that process. So it's always a two way.
So don't go seeking for people Yeah. Pouring to you, also pouring to other people. Absolutely. Awesome. Great advice. Let's not forget, though, you guys became each other's mentors along the way. So you had other mentors, you had people that maybe have been in the role before, or they're in leadership roles that gave you advice and counsel, coaching, direction as mentors. But along the way, you guys, you mentored each other. You supported each other.
That's that's kind of the same part of this whole equation. It's not just seeking out people that have been in the role, but it's also people that might be able to to help you, but you can help as well. Like you said, George, it's a two way street. Okay. Now I'm gonna put you guys on the spot. It's a big question here. Are you guys ready? Very big question. There's a captive audience of people listening, and they're gonna pay particular attention to this question.
What are the absolute must that people need to do if they're trying to get their 1st MSL role? Well, I could go on and on and on. I will try to keep this short and sweet. Let's see. So some absolute must is that, you know, it it you can just hunker down and just apply, apply, apply, or you you can develop a strategy and be intentional and have a plan and almost be systematic.
I worked at this for every day for months just trying to soak up every bit of knowledge I possibly could with all the webinars, every article I could find. I wrote in a journal every single day. Right? I made a certain amount of connections meaningful and authentic when I tried to reach out to them, so many a week or a month. Right? I've really you must have a a a plan with goals and strategy, maybe some deliverables to get where you wanna be.
You absolutely must, like I said before, curate an engaging, exciting, and, you know, almost colorful LinkedIn profile that tells your story. There is a lot of PhDs out there. There are a lot of MSLs, but who are you, and what have you done? And what about your background can allow you to navigate into this new space, into this new role? So you must be active. You must be present and engaging on LinkedIn. And, also, you must, let's see what else can you do.
I think another must that I had was trying to make connections so they could think of me for internal referrals. Right? You don't always have to do that, but a must is, I think, being able to before you even apply, have people that you can lean on, whether it be other aspiring MSLs like George or mentors or experienced ones. You wanna have someone in your corner.
So for me, I think an MSL saved me from my, disaster, from my job interview because she looked at the presentation and gave me insights that I otherwise would have missed. So must have MSLs reviewing your resumes and your presentations to prepare you for these. So, I could completely keep going, but I will pause and see what George has to say. Yeah. In addition to everything Sarah has said, a must, must, must, you have to have a clear understanding of what the MSR role is.
You cannot go through the interview process without a clear understanding. No matter what your background is, every question is circling around. Do you understand what this job is? Even just being in the role for just over a year now, people have reached out to me. Oh, I really want to become an MSL. And then someone I I I remember well, a few people have said, yeah. I'm looking for a job where I would not have to travel. Like, wait. Did you say MSL?
Yeah. I really want to become an MSL, but I don't want to travel. Or I really want to become an MSL. I'm a little shy. And then I'm sitting here. I'm questioning myself. What job are you really trying to get? So a must. You need to understand what this job is. Whether it's through the MSL talk podcast, whether it's through other free resources, MSL society, other resources out there that talks about it, people writing articles, you need to understand what this job is.
And to add to Sierra's point about being present and active on LinkedIn goes with what they call building your own brand. Right? They commonly they they they say that all squares not rectangles, but not all rectangles or squares. You really need to be able to build your own brand. And I wish I had read, never eat alone earlier because, really highlights the fact that for you to become a brand, you have to become relentlessly focused on what you do that adds value.
So what are what are you doing on LinkedIn? What are you doing that adds value to people? Are you writing an article that someone can learn from? Are you recommending a course? Are you reviewing a course? Right? So those are some musts. Having a clear understanding of the role and having a presence, a brand on LinkedIn, I think those are really 2 I mean, LinkedIn and other professional media. I I mostly use LinkedIn, so that's why you would hear me talk about LinkedIn a lot.
But those are my 2 mosts. Can I add one more thing to that, understanding the role? Because I think when people hear that, they probably think, oh, well, I'll make sure I know everything about the role so I can say how great I would be at it. Right? But I was interviewing someone, while I was being interviewed, and he asked me, he said, you know, can you think of some challenges you would face? Because this is your first role. I can think of a few. You know? He said that to me.
And I was like, well, you know what? Yeah. I I can think of quite a few myself, and I rattled them off with no problem. And you might think, why would she do that? But I knew the challenges because I knew what the role was. I knew the challenges because I knew this was gonna be my first time. But, you know, territory mapping, getting access, all these things, like, you have to know that beforehand.
It's okay that they're gonna be challenges, but at least you foresee the demands of the role and the aspects of role and you're ready to learn. Right? So you the understanding is it's it it's layers to that, and it's really important. Well, I gotta tell you, man, that's great advice from both of you, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go too much further into elaborating. But I will say is that one of the common themes I heard from both of you is you have to immerse yourself into this role.
You have to learn everything that there is to be that there is to learn and get yourself into this community in order to be able to speak about it, to to interview effectively, and to be able to show others that you have a passion for it. So I have an expression. I think you guys have heard me say this before. When all things are equal amongst interview applicants and job seekers, the job always goes to the person that shows they want it the most. You have to show that you want it.
You have to have passion. You have to be prepared. If you don't show that you're going to fall short to the other people that do, because there's somebody else out there like a Sierra, like a George that is totally buttoned up And you might be competing against somebody that has experience. So you have to show up. You have to show up with knowledge, with passion, with excitement, with enthusiasm, preparation, with questions. That's what it takes.
I talk about I'm not gonna go into I talk a lot about that a lot on this podcast, but you guys just summarized it really well, and it's important. So let's get to what happens next. At some point in time, I know this from speaking to a lot of folks that are trying to get into an MSO role. I know this from speaking to both of you guys. There's a frustration point. There's a point where you get discouraged. Right? Everybody that is going fit, it's not just this job search. It's any job search.
I talk to people all the time that are that are discouraged or frustrated. What do you say to those people? I could start. I could start. You know okay. So this is it's interesting because this is gonna come full circle, but I kid you not, Tom. I have a book that I almost exactly 2 years ago when I started writing in with my journaling, and I looked at it for the first time in a long time. And on the 3rd page, it was the 1st MSL talk episode that I had listened to, and it was doctor Chen.
And she said, you know, you need to act like an MSL before you get the role. You need to be the MSL before you get the role. And then it reminds me of this quote is, like, create a vision of who you wanna be, then live in that picture as if it is already true. Amen. And I wish that came from, like, some cool mythical it was from Arnold Schwarzenegger. But No. It's so true, though. It worked. But it's just so things come full circle.
I had people tell me, you know, I'd be at networking event, and I said, oh, you know, I'm interested in this role and learning more. And she's and someone said, oh, well, everybody wants to be that. You know, it just kinda like, you know, shrugged me off. And, but lo and behold, that person ended up giving me an interview because she had had some experiences. She she taught me some things, and then I ended up, you know, being able to thank her for my role now.
I've had some people tell me, oh, well, respectfully and kindly, you should consider these as avenues, which is there's nothing wrong with it. There are many different paths to where you wanna be. Totally okay. But it's just it's interesting because I'm actually reconnecting with this professional now as the MSL that I wasn't before. So you never know how things are gonna come back. You never know, you know, how your connections are going to, your connections are going to evolve.
You just have to keep going. After I called that person who I'm an MSL now. I called the first MSL that I ever talked to, and she said, don't ever let anybody tell you that you are not good enough. Right? So you just have to be hungry and you have to this is a second job to get your 1st MSL role. It's a daily systematic way to get this role. So you just have to fight for it and keep doing this on a daily basis, soaking up knowledge, finding Georges.
You know, I said, you know, why would go to the webinars? And I said, if there's a bow tie in sight, I am in the right place. You are gonna see on LinkedIn the same people at the same webinars. They're engaging on the same post. They're everywhere because they they want these roles. Right?
So position yourself in in interact with the people who you see because the people who you see and who are engaging and you wanna get to know that person, those are the people who are, you know, finding great opportunities. So, I'll I'll stop right there. I'm so fired up. That was so inspiring. Seriously, I love it. You that was amazing, Sierra. You got me so fired up. I love it. George, let's hear it from you, brother. What was the question again?
He just made me just sitting here and soaking it up. I got George Shook. What advice do you have for folks that are frustrated right now and discouraged in their job search? What do you tell them? Yes. 1, I would tell them it's worth it. You just need to keep at it. Right?
So most often, I tell people that looking at myself as the scientist I thought I was in Cameroon, the accountant, AKA business acumen, and the pharmacist, what is that one role that has been able to capture and absorb all the skill that I've learned in life? It is this role. Right? So and it speaks true for many people. The one benefit of being an MSL is that it captures almost everything that you made efforts to learn in your life or that life fostered you. Right?
So you would really find satisfaction. Yeah. There are other opportunities after MSL. But for now, I tell everybody, if you have set a goal to become an MSL, be at it until, you get it. So keep working and keep working. It's going to happen. Don't get discouraged. There are other people who would tell you about their stories of their struggles, how it took them 10, 5 years to be in the role. For me, I go with my own story. Right? It didn't take me 5 years.
It might have taken someone else 5 years for a combination of reasons. So when I speak to people, I tell them, as you go seeking and shopping for advice, go with advice that gives you motivation. Did I thank the person who told me I needed years of clinical experience before I ever think of becoming an eye? So I did. I thanked them for all the things they said. But I focused not on the lack of clinical experience as a pharmacist, but what other skills. I'm an educator. I'm a communicator.
I have a good business acumen. What else do I need to show? Right? So as you go out there, teaching yourself what the role is, you need to sit yourself down too and ask, do I actually understand this role at this point? Because there are people who passively consume the resources that are available. I actually had a notebook for MSL talk. I had a OneNote for informational interviews. And I'm sure all the people I spoke with can say I never asked them the same question twice.
The only way I could do that was to have a systematic way. Right? I want to use your 5 minutes correctly. So I think anyone, first, it is a worthwhile investment becoming an MSO, either to stay as an MSO or number of opportunities it opens up for you. And 2, to be able to filter the good in every advice that you get and what you can really act on. So keep at it. Everyone out there, keep at it. Good stuff. Good stuff. Alright, guys. We are getting a little long here.
So we're gonna do final speed round. Just last piece of advice that you guys have to offer folk for folks out there that are trying to break into the role. Let's go 60 seconds. Sierra, you go first. You put yourself out there. You be confident. You be brave. You tell them why you are different. Don't someone said you don't have to be good or even great. You have to stand out. You know, let people understand who you are and tell them what your transferable skills and attributes are.
Keep working hard and reach out to us, and, we'll we'll help you, figure out things and help encourage you and motivate you and, just keep at it. Awesome. George, last words of advice. Last words of advice. Build a brand, be present on, on professional platforms.
And and one of the things to have in mind as you're doing all of this, I think it's, from Dale Carnegie Carnegie who said, you can be more successful in 2 months by becoming, interested in people's success, than you can in 2 years trying to, have others get interested in your own success. So I say this to mean, if someone has a new role, you're interested in their sectors, hey. Congratulations. If someone sends out a good post, write a good post.
Sometimes it's worth it's very important I reach out to someone who posts important stuff on LinkedIn, even outside of the comment I make. Like, I really appreciate this free education. Because sometimes, I'll not even remember that you commented. But I get to their inbox and tell them, you know what? I admire you for this level of engagement, and I really enjoy this. That's how to build your presence, not by elevating yourself, but by elevating others who are already doing great.
So be yourself, build your brand, and be present. Awesome, guys. Good, Tom. He's good. He's good, man. You guys were amazing. I am I think we broke the Internet. I think this is gonna be the most downloaded episode we've ever had. I can't I can't thank you guys enough. Like I said before, I'm so impressed by both of you. I wanna wish you all the success in the world.
Thank you for everything that you guys have done today to to pay it forward and help people who were once in a position that you were in. I appreciate you coming on this podcast and giving back. And I appreciate everyone. That's all the listeners, everybody that has supported this podcast. Once again, we're getting up on that milestone of 250,000 listeners. So I love you guys. Thank you guys. Keep up the effort. Stay strong in your faith.
Stay strong in your attitude, and good things will happen. Take all this advice. Listen to this episode again. Take good notes. And I'm I guarantee you guys are gonna get to your goal. Alright? Thanks again. You too. Thanks so much. This is an honor to be. Alright. Y'all see you soon. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.