Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Alison Evans. She's director of medical affairs at Certex Pharmaceuticals. And we discuss why companies should hire aspiring MSLs and how to go about it. So awesome conversation. Allison's great. I think you guys are gonna like this. Don't forget to follow on LinkedIn and Instagram. Check us out on YouTube. We put all the videos up on YouTube, and join us for MSL Talk Live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 p. M. Eastern Time.
And that was switched new format. It's on LinkedIn Live. It's awesome. And we've been having huge turnouts and great conversations. So wanna personally invite everybody to join us on those MSL Talk live discussions. Thank you for listening. Have an awesome day. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey there, Allison. Thanks for joining me. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much.
Good morning, and thank you so much for having me. Yeah. I'm excited. This is an I think this is gonna be a tremendously popular topic. I think a lot of people are gonna listen to this. So thank you for bringing this up and for taking time. I know you're busy. You got a new job. There's a lot going on in your life. We'll talk about that. But let's start with a an introduction. Alright. Great. Well, my name's Allison Evans. Currently, I am the director of medical affairs at Certex.
We are an oncology device company. And, of course, I have to say that the opinions expressed here are mine and not those with Certex. So No. Awesome. No. We appreciate that. Get that out of the way. And I wanna welcome we have actually, a new listener base in Austria, And I want to welcome everybody that's been listening in Austria. We are we finally broke into the charts, so we're in the rankings in Austria. So I'm grateful for that.
So just a quick shout out to all our new listeners in that area. So let's go right into this conversation of why companies should hire aspiring MSLs and how. And, you know, I wanna talk about your experience, but I also would love to have you just explain your background, how you got into industry, and what kind of brought you to where you are now. Sure. Absolutely. So I'm a nurse by training. I have my doctorate in nursing practice.
I'm a perennial student, so I went back and got my MBA in health care management as well as my masters in legal studies with an emphasis in corporate and healthcare compliance. And I am board certified as a medical science liaison through the MSL Society. Awesome. Yeah. That's exciting. So what brought me into industry, I actually started out as a commercial speaker, which is kind of an odd way to start things. Right? And, my MSL at the time mentored me through my doctoral program.
I was very young, and really took an interest in me and saw potential in me that I didn't even know existed. She became our director in 2016 and she called me and said, hey, what do you think about being in MSL? And I said, well, sure. What are those? And what do they do?
And so I was so blessed to just kind of have the opportunity fall in my lap, which I fully recognize is not everyone's journey and that's really what I'm here for, is to help provide some insights on that journey to help everyone be successful, in pursuing their medical affairs career.
Well and I'll tell you, there's gonna be a lot of people that, first of all, are gonna be very jealous about the fact that it just fell into your lap, but that are gonna be very appreciative that you are coming on here and and talking about how you can give back and help people give them the answers to the test, so to speak, and help them in their career journey. But real quick. So, like, how should you get into your MSO role? How did you transition into leadership?
Sure. Absolutely. So I had been in MSO for about 5 years, and I knew that I always wanted to people lead. When I was in my clinical position as an advanced practice registered nurse here in Ohio, I did have managerial responsibilities. I was number 2 in charge of my company and so I had those experiences, you know, in my extracurricular activities. I always had kind of a teaching coaching role and so it's something that I enjoy doing.
So I envisioned, as I got older that I would want to people lead. And I got to about 5 years and decided that, I had experience to start, you know, to kind of throw my hat in the ring. Prior to that, I didn't really feel comfortable, I didn't have the confidence in myself to lead other people, in the way that I felt they deserved to be led. Yeah. Yeah. Did you wind up landing a were you was it a promotion in a current company? Were you able to land a role in leadership at an outside company?
I was able to, be hired by an outside company in international director's position. Yeah. It was, again, it was kind of strange, because, you know, the most logical sense would be would be to have a company mentor you and into a, you know, into a team lead, into a regional director, then into a national director. But given the size of our team, we only had 4 MSLs, at that company and so, so that kinda made sense for the size of the company.
If it were at a larger company where you have 16, 20 MSLs on a team, I would venture to guess that those mentorship opportunities would be more plentiful. I think it really just depends on the decide on the size and the needs of your company. Right. Alright. So you make this this leap into industry, you make this leap into leadership, and now you're going to hire MSLs. You have a choice. Right? You have a choice of, do I hire experienced MSLs? Do I hire aspiring MSLs and train them?
So how do you make that choice and why would you consider aspiring MSLs? Absolutely. In my experience, I've found that aspiring MSLs are hungry. They they have such a drive that you can't buy. You can't put a salary number on it. And not not that experienced MSLs don't. I don't mean to I don't mean to sound that way, but for me that's what really would make me choose an aspiring MSL over a seasoned MSL.
Somebody who is ready to get in and get in the weeds and show me that they that they want this position and that they're willing to work for it. That they have some humility in understanding that they are an aspiring MSL and that they do want to learn and not, oh well, you know, I I've watched, a couple things on YouTube and so I'm good to go.
I had an aspiring or an aspiring MSL say to me once, well, I've sat through a commercial dinner so I can be an MSL now, and I was like, no friend, no friend. Yeah. That's what I'm not to say. No no no friend. Yeah. And so, so just those kind of things. Like, show me that you're hungry, show me that you're willing to work, and tell me how you're going to leverage your previous experience, in this position. So for example, I started at Retina. I'm not an ophthalmologist.
I'm not a Retina specialist, but I'm a nurse and the product that I was dealing with, had to do with patients with diabetes. I knew diabetes like the back of my hand. And so I had to I had to paint a picture for the people that I interviewed with as to why I could be successful in this position. And that's what I would like to see aspiring MSLs do when they're interviewing. You know, if I'm a pharmacist, I can bring this to your company.
If I'm a PhD, my research is based on, you know, I did research in, you know, take your pick of topics. If you were a clinician, tell me how your clinical experience could fit based on what, based on what you're doing. And and I think that makes a very compelling story, when you're looking to break in. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think you have to separate yourself And you have to be worthy to be able to get that opportunity. There's there's only so many opportunities out there to be MSLs.
And you're competing against typically a market where there might be some experienced MSLs in the candidate pool. So how are you gonna separate yourself? How are you gonna compete with those folks? And when you interview, do you interview I'm sure you interview a diverse pool. Right? I'm sure you have Absolutely. Right. So you look at all candidates, candidates with experience, candidates that don't have experience.
And you and if I'm hearing you correctly, you make your decisions and judge based on feel, on who wants it the most and who might fit the most based upon that interview. Absolutely. Team fit is a really big deal for me, because if I've worked really hard to build a positive culture and a healthy workplace environment and a positive team dynamic where we have a lot, you know, a lot of experience, the last thing that I wanna do is hire somebody who's gonna be a stick in the mud. Right?
So I so I also really hire for team fit and I think that that's important to bring up in the interview as well that that you're a team player. Talk about how you can benefit your teammates, talk about what you can bring to the table that perhaps would be different. I also personally make a point to hire for professional diversity. I don't want all PhDs on my team any more than I want all clinicians on my team.
I like to have a nice mix because then I feel like everybody feels a little bit more vested in the process. And, we kinda help to fill in our own knowledge gaps along the way, and it makes a much more equitable work environment, I find. Yeah. No. That's good. I mean, I think that's great advice for for leaders that are out there looking to build teams.
But it's I think it's also great for job seekers to be able to say, well, okay, I'm a PhD or I'm a farm d or I'm a nurse practitioner, whatever their advanced degree might be. How do I leverage that? How do I, you know, express, my strengths and from my background and how that can can be a great fit for the team? So you decide that you're going to as you're hiring, you're going to consider, aspiring MSLs. And you explain the reasons why. Now what would what would be the advantages of doing that?
Sure. Like I said, the aspiring MSLs that I've met are are hungry, and they're so ready to break into the field. The ones who will be successful are the ones who have done their research, are the ones who have attended conferences and symposiums, maybe they've gotten board certified, they've studied the compliance around MSLs. You know, if you're interviewing with me and I say tell me your knowledge of compliance as it relates to pharma or device or whatever and they say well, I don't know.
Yeah. I I don't need you to know any, you know, everything about it because of course there's lots of nuances, but I need to know that you've tried. I need to know that you've thought about it and put the time into it, that you've done your due diligence and that you actually know what you're getting into. Because if I start getting a whole lot of I don't knows, that doesn't tell me that Never a good thing. No. No. It's it's very it's very off putting.
And even and if you don't know, you can say, I've done the research, but I haven't come across that. Can you talk to me about that? There's always a way to reframe it. Yeah. For sure. No. I and I love that. And I think that that's a good lesson for people that are interviewing is, I don't know is never a good answer for anything. And the word can't should never enter into the English language in any way, especially when you're interviewing.
Yeah. But I think, you know, getting back, I think that just by opening up the candidate pool to aspiring MSLs because in my world as a recruiter, a lot of times, clients come to me and they say, well, we only want this, and it's really stringent. So we want somebody with 3 or 5 years of MSO experience. They have to have oncology experience, specifically in metastatic breast cancer. And, oh, by the way, they need to live in this, you know, ZIP code. Like, it could be really stringent.
But by opening the candidate pool and and considering aspiring MSOs, I would imagine that it makes hiring, a lot more efficient or at least gives you more options. Absolutely. It may and and it also makes it more competitive. Right? Like, you don't know who you don't know, and I feel like when they want this super ultra strict environment, for hiring and recruiting, you may be missing out on some really really awesome candidates that you would have missed by having it be so strict.
Now, I by no means am advocating that, you know, that you would hire an, I don't know, an optometrist into something for liver. It it doesn't make sense. You know what I mean? Or or things like that and and nothing against my optoms. I came for my care, so that's but but apply for the jobs where it makes sense. Apply for the jobs where you have the strongest chance. And for the companies that are recruiting, open it up a little bit into what makes sense.
Maybe you're just wanting MDs in your eye care company. I would absolutely advocate for new optometrists or ophthalmologist or, those adjacencies where you met where you might find some highly qualified people. And again, everybody who is applying for these jobs is incredibly smart. Nobody's a dud. So, like, chances are you're gonna be okay regardless.
But then you but then you've given yourself the opportunity to hire for fit, to hire for, passion and drive, and those things that don't come along with academic degrees. Yeah. Well and, I mean, I listen. I I I hear everything you're saying. I think that that this all sounds great. There's gotta be disadvantages, though. You know, do you is it are there challenges with just pure volume? What are the what would be the disadvantages of opening it up the way we're talking about?
Sure. If you have a company that is expecting, your MSLs to hit the ground running in 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and be, like, field deployed with relationships and ready to go, you're setting both of you up for failure. Mhmm. And and as a company, you owe it to your candidates not to set them up for failure, you know, and I genuinely believe that that is the hiring manager's responsibility at that point.
Don't don't hire them and then say, oh, well, you're not what I wanted because you didn't have experience. Well, you you knew that. You knew that coming in, so then why do that? You have to be willing to make the time investment, which may be a little bit more than a seasoned MSL. And and and that's okay. I don't see that as a downside. Again, unless you've got your back on a wall with time with timelines, with launches, you know, things like that, then that could definitely be a problem.
So those are the biggest disadvantages that I found. Sometimes region planning can get a little bit fuzzy, but again, it these aren't things that can't, these are all coachable. They can be successful. So what I would say is they're going to require a little bit more time. Plan the time for them. And if you don't have the time, don't do either one of yourselves a disservice.
Yeah. Yeah. And I I think just from my experience, anytime I'm working with a client or I'm in a situation where they'll consider aspiring MSLs, it's just a much bigger candidate pool. So there's a lot more vetting that needs to happen. There's a lot of legwork up front to make sure that you are finding the right candidates that are the right fit.
And one of the things that I always tell when I coach aspiring MSLs and talk to aspiring MSLs, one of the most common filters in the process is the question, well, what does an MSL do or why do you want to be an MSL? Those are 2 questions that if you can't answer those with a good answer, you're probably gonna be eliminated right from the beginning. It might be attending an interview. Because if you can't tell the hiring manager what an MSL does, then you're not qualified. Right. Absolutely.
You should have thoroughly read the the job description and I would expect you to to be able to speak to that, you know. I understand, you know, thank you person from company x for interviewing me. I understand that you're looking for fill in the blanks. This is how I can meet those objectives. If you haven't taken the time to match that up, don't waste the company's time in interviewing. You need to show up ready for the job that you want.
I've had people who don't know what an MSL does, who, haven't done their due diligence, haven't done the research, think because they've just been a clinician for so long that they can just, you know, oh, well, I'm sure this would be fine. No. No. No. These things are very very different, and additionally, showing up for the job that you want. I've had people interview and just like tank tops or t shirts or stuff like that, like, that doesn't tell me that you're taking it seriously.
It doesn't it doesn't show the respect or that you value that person's time. So I want you to show up like you got the job, it's your first day and you're standing in front of the CEO, like, that's the kind of, like, laser focused mentality that you should have. And I'll be honest, aspiring MSLs do have to try harder to get these jobs than seasoned MSLs. No doubt. So if you know you have to try harder then then be that.
I gotta tell you, this is such great advice, and I'm I'm sure that there's a lot of people out there feverishly taking notes. Because here's the thing, a lot of people don't they don't really know the expectations. But I can tell you that when you're interviewing for an industry position, it's not an information gathering session. It's not an opportunity for you to go in and ask questions and learn about the role.
In no world is it okay to say, well, I was hoping to learn a little bit more about this in our in this conversation. No. It's you need to prove to everyone that you're speaking to, the hiring team, the hiring manager, everybody involved, HR, whoever's involved in the hiring process, that you're the right fit for the company. And that and that you're coming knowing exactly what value you're gonna bring to the organization.
It's not well, I really, you know, I heard about this MSO role, and it sounds great. But, you know, know, I was hoping to learn a little bit more about it. Can you tell me about it? Def because I and listen. Right. I've had it happen. That's why I'm saying it. I've had it happen, and I just wanna make sure everybody's aware that that's not the right approach. Absolutely.
So what other advice would you let's keep let's talk about the aspiring MSL looking to break in, but then I wanna get back into the hiring side. Sure. What other advice do you have for somebody that's looking to break in and, you know, that you've learned, that you've seen, some something that might help them? Sure. Absolutely. Personally, I always recommend going to the MSL Society website. There's a ton of resources. Going to the annual conference.
Networking is such a big thing because, you know, we all kinda look the same on paper, right? So, but if you, Tom, know me, Allison, because we've had a chance to talk and shake hands live, you're gonna be consciously or subconsciously more like, oh, yeah. I wanna talk to her. Or, you know, conversely maybe you're like, no. She's terrible. I don't wanna talk to her again. But It could happen.
Taking those face to face opportunities where you can network, you know, within those within those professional sites, network on LinkedIn and I can't tell you how many people that I've had just like send me a connect request. Like, I don't know you. Like, take the time to be like, hey, I heard you on the podcast or I heard you speak at the conference or I saw that you've had this and I was wondering if I could have 5 minutes of your time to talk.
Like, there's many of us who have been in industry for years who are very willing to help and mentor, but we need a little bit of background around what your intention is. That's great advice. Yeah. That's really good advice. Don't call. Don't call. Well, it I'll tell you, though, it's and and it's all in the approach. Yeah. If you take a really tactful approach and and you're respectful of the other person and their time, and you send them a really nice note and make it brief.
I could tell you, I get these requests for, you know, mentorship requests. And, hey, Tom. Can I, you know, chat with you for a few minutes? And the the it's, like, 17 paragraphs long. You lost me along the way. I don't even know what you're looking for because I didn't get that far. I don't have that much time to read. So just make it really simple and to the point. But I just think it's great advice. And I love the advice of if you can afford it, get to conferences.
Yes. It's just such a game changer. You hit the nail on the head. People migrate to what they're familiar with. So when you see someone, meet someone, shake their hand, get to talk to them, now it's not just a face to the name. You get this feeling from that person. You get to see how they interact. You get to feel an energy level from people, and that resonates. And that stays with people if you handle the conversation the right way. But, but you you have to get up to the plate.
You have to get up to bat in order to do that. That's right. And it also it also gives, you know, aspiring or seasoned MSLs the opportunity to vet companies ahead of time because you have a chance to meet your coworkers. And maybe you're like, oh, I've heard so many good things about this company, and then you meet this team and you're like, mm-mm, not a thing. That's okay too. That's what networking is for. It doesn't mean that they're not gonna be a valuable resource.
It doesn't mean that they can't help you along the way. But if it's not the right fit for you, be honest, and that's okay. You can realize, this is a great team, you know, that I may be able to learn and connect with, but I don't really see myself being at that company. It's too big, it's too small, it's too whatever, and that's alright too. Like don't sell yourself short because the bottom line is our jobs are not just 40 hours a week, they are a ton of time.
As a director I'm constantly responding to calls, texts, emails at all hours, you know, pretty much I and and I tell my team, I'm available from 6 AM to pretty much 9 PM. You know, if it's the weekends, if it's a holiday, I'm not just gonna ignore my team. So you need to consider the jobs that you can work really hard in but also afford you mental peace in that time. And that are not negatively stressful to you. Every job is stressful for whatever reason.
But if it's taking up too much rent space, if you find that you're not that right fit, don't try to make it fit. Because you will be miserable. And I couldn't agree more. I think in this job, when you're in industry, you're an MSO leader, you're an MSO, or you're aspiring to be an MSO, you have to be prepared to be on all the time. Right. And if you're not prepared to be on all the time, you really need to reconsider whether or not it's the right job for you.
And I'm not saying there's a lot of people I know that are introverts and it's it's difficult for them to be on all the time, But they pull it off because they know how to be to find success in turning it on and off when they need to. That's different. But if you really can't turn it on and if it's really an effort for you, and I'll give you an example.
If you go to a conference and you just can't approach people, then you might really wanna consider whether or not you're gonna have the wherewithal to do this because you need to approach people. You need to put yourself out there. You need to get out of your comfort zone. And I will say this. If you're ever at a conference and you see me, please say hello. Please talk to me.
I've had so many situations with people like, oh, Tom, I saw you at x y z conference, but, you know, I, you know, I I felt funny coming over and saying hello. I'm giving you a new super approachable. Well, I mean, of all people, like, honestly, I I help the connect with me on LinkedIn. Say hello. Like, I wanna be a resource. I can't talk to everybody all the time when you want me to talk to you. I wish I could. That's why I did this podcast.
But, like, I will absolutely love to help you be a resource, and I absolutely will if I'm at a conference, I'm gonna talk to you. There's no question. And I'm sure you feel the same way because you're a people person and most MSO leaders are people. Just be tactful about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Just be respectful, be tactful, be a good listener because there's lots of information out there and just be be a good listener. I mean, this is a great profession. It's it's awesome.
And, but, you know, be that awesome person. Show up as that awesome person too. Yeah. So let's get back over to the other side because I wanna get back to hiring for a second because you said something to me when we were on the phone and you said you use this term purposeful diversity hiring. And does that mean you mentioned a little bit about hiring diversity in like different degrees and farm these MDs, PhDs, whatever.
But is that where it ends, or is there more to your diversity hiring strategy? Sure. I mean, of course, I I like to hire a diverse, group professionally as I've said, but also I and within that I I found that that the diversity has naturally come, but I believe in that.
I I want men on my team, I want women on my team, I want different backgrounds, I want different ages, I want different I I wanna mix it up as much as possible because my experience and and my life that has gotten me here is not gonna be the same as yours, is not going to be the same as as someone who perhaps is here on a visa, you know, all of those things matter. And I think the more diverse a team is, you are going to exponentially grow your opportunities.
And I tell the candidates that because if they're not on board with that, then then this isn't the right team for you. I believe in in in creating a very equitable teamwork. I also believe in creating a very safe and affirming team that everyone is respectful, that everyone is valued, that everybody knows that they are chosen and wanted for this team, that that it that it's not it's not a handout or a, oh, well, we only had one candidate.
Like, I chose you because I believe that you are the best person for this team, and I value what you are bringing to it. And so I I will say I do expect homogeneity in that. Like, I expect all of our team members to be on board with that, because you truly get the best results, when you're embracing, DEI initiatives. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, again, that's why I wanted to ask because I kinda figured I thought I knew what you meant, but that was an interesting term, purposeful diversity hiring.
And I'm sure you have a great team, and I know how careful you were with putting it together. And obviously, even just by considering aspiring MSLs, you're diversifying because you're bringing it you're not just saying, okay, it has to look like this. Right. So I think a lot of people appreciate that. I I I hope so. I mean, I I don't think that there's one way that good looks. Right?
Like, with all of the MSLs, seasoned or aspiring, the leaders that I've had the opportunity to meet, good, good and great comes in all forms. And so the question is, are you going to be that great individual? That's what I'm hiring for. I'm hiring for great, and, diversity, I believe in my absolute soul as part of that. Yeah. That's great. I love it. So let's talk about the future because the the role of the MSO is constantly evolving. We know that.
Yes. What do you think the MSL of the future looks like? Personally, being a a licensed clinician, I would like to see the board certification become standard in industry. That we all are coming in on on a level playing field that every company knows that there is like a, you know, a minimum standard, and I do think that that's healthy.
Now whether it'll actually go that way, I don't know, but personally for standardization's sake, with our job being fairly nebulous and really different between companies, I do think that that's important. I see MSLs becoming even more important part of, clinical trials and research and patient outreach because we are at a really cool spot when it comes to patient care.
And so I would like to see more, compliant interactions and programs having to do with patients and really keeping our solutions very patient centric. I know that probably makes some of some commercial colleagues cringe that, you know, well, Allison, it's still a business. Yeah. I get that. But if we always are keeping our patients at the forefront of what we're doing, we're not going to lose. Yeah. And and that's my my nurse training is showing. But Spoken like a true nurse.
So that's what I would say. So I would say you need to be ready for that. And part of that is gonna look like an expansion in HEOR focused MSLs.
Because, particularly for the American healthcare system, I I know our international colleagues who are listening probably have a different, dependent on the company, excuse me, country, in which they live, but at least in the US, our insurance companies are extremely value based, and so I see MSL's really working, in that HEOR space and having, really an expanded role there to make sure that patients have access to our therapies and that we're
proving that, that we are being, fiscally responsible in the process. Right. Right. Awesome. That's great. And listen, this was such an awesome conversation. I wish we can go for another hour. But, you know, I wanna give you one, you know, final thoughts, final words, final piece of advice for anybody out there looking to get into industry. Be the teammate that you want to have. Be the person that you would want to lead. And do not be afraid to show that you care.
I I recognize that we are an industry. I recognize that we all work for businesses, but show somebody what gets you up in the morning and, be be willing to show some heart. Allison, you're awesome. Thank you. Great way to you. To everyone. I really appreciate you for coming on. I appreciate all you guys for listening and for sharing this podcast, one of the fast growing podcasts in pharma. Thank you guys, and, we'll see you next time. Allison, we'll have to do this again. Sounds great.
Have a good one. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.