Welcome back, everyone. Thanks for joining me for this podcast. My guest today is Dawn O'Reilly. She is a medical science liaison with BioDeskix, and we talk about why and how clinicians make great MSLs. Think you guys are gonna like this conversation. Dawn's awesome. Please remember to follow us on YouTube and Instagram, and don't forget to reach out to me on LinkedIn. Connect with me if you haven't already, and share this if you find some value in it.
I really appreciate everybody that's sharing the podcast. Last thing, check us out on MSL talk live, which is on Clubhouse, and it's the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM eastern time. Thanks for joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Dawn. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. How are you? Good. How are you, Tom? Awesome. Awesome. This is exciting.
Should we tell everybody how this came into being? Probably. Let's do it. Yeah. So Dawn and I met at the MSL Society conference in Vegas. And it was interesting because it was the very, very last day, and we showed up to this. It was a I thought it was, like, a not a workshop, but it was a build a bike Mhmm. Kinda charity thing where I thought we were just gonna go there and build bikes for kids Mhmm. For the holidays. And it turned out to be, like, a team building thing.
And everybody got broken out into groups, and we had challenges. And it was so much more than that. And I was in Dawn's group, and we had to do this activity. And I don't know. All I know is at before all was said and done, I was the emcee with a microphone, and Dawn was doing cartwheels. That's the gist of That's about right. Yeah. And that's how we met. And we started talking, and and here we are. And Dawn came up with a really good idea for a podcast.
And this is something that we kinda touched on before, but not really the same in the same way. But we're gonna talk about why clinicians make great MSLs.
And the reason this is so relevant is because on my side of the equation, I get we're starting to get a lot of requests from companies for not just PharmDs, MDs, PhDs, but also nurse practitioners, and physician assistants and even, you know, clinical, you know, folks that come from the clinical background in in specific, you know, disease states. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. Before we do that, let's have Dawn do an introduction.
Sure. Well, thank you, Tom, for having me on the show today. It's a pleasure to be here. Really excited to meet you, at the MSL Society meeting. And so, yeah, my name is Donna Riley. I am currently a medical science liaison with BioDeskics. I have a pretty unique background story, not one that you probably heard before, but, you know, I do believe that every step along the way gets you to where you are today. So I currently reside in North Carolina.
I am married with 3 children, and a golden retriever. I grew up in Florida, went to Eckerd College on a soccer scholarship. At the time, I fell in love with research. And I did a dissertation and then I moved up to North Carolina. I did a PhD at the Wake Forest Molecular Medicine Program. It's a translational, research program, and, I spent countless hours in the lab learning every little detail possible. And I, you know, I really did love it.
I defended that in 2008, and, you know, I still keep in touch with some of these people today. There was some parts of that that, you know, were missing. I I had always wanted to do more patient care, and I I I thought, well, you know, what else can I do with that? And I did a postdoc in a biotechnology company and still, felt like, you know, I wanted to get more closer to patients. And so I started looking, and that's when the PA career was introduced to me.
I was 28 at the time, and I was like, okay, let's do this. You know, I applied to Wake Forest. I started there in 2010 and graduated in 2012. And I had just had my baby, my first baby right after graduation and taking my boards, took some time off, and then I started working as the clinical research director at Wake Forest.
And I I worked with I collaborated with all these physicians and worked on their clinical trials and worked with all kinds of people, lab techs, nutritionists, and it was awesome. And I really enjoyed that position too. I was using my PhD, using the PA, and then about 10 months into that, I received a phone call to start this new clinic. And this was from a previous mentor of mine, and he's like, hey. I'm starting a new clinic in family medicine.
Do you wanna, go, you know, open up this clinic by yourself as a solo provider? And I was like, oh my gosh. No. I don't really wanna do that, but I did. And it was great. Great experience. Ran this family medicine clinic for about 5 years. After about 2 years of that, we hired a doctor on-site. So it's me and the doctor for, that time, and I really did enjoy working, in family medicine.
But, you know, during that time, and I say this because I know a lot of other PAs who feel this way, you know, we love taking care of patients. We love that aspect. But during that time, I started, you know, getting tired and seeing patients over and over and over again, and the charting and the charting and the messages and the messages. And it was really hard to find that balance between the work and the life and, you know, the family. I also had a second child, during my family medicine days.
And so I started looking into, you know, what else could I do? And so at that time, I got a call to open up another clinic. It was more of a holistic based clinic, more functional medicine, integrated medicine, which is somewhat down my passion. I've had 2 back surgeries and chronic back pain, so that, modalities have helped me tremendously. So So I started this clinic with another, institution, and, it was going really well.
We were, you know, seeing patients in, you know, really good, ways and holistic manners. And but financially, the clinic wasn't thriving as much as, the institution wanted it to, so I moved on. And so the last two and a half years, I actually went back to cardiology, which is what my PhD dissertation was in, and I spent cardiac, I did cardiac clinic and cardiology inpatient medicine. The last two and a half years, I, you know, had great team of people, doctors I worked with.
And, you know, the hours weren't all that bad. I mean, they were 10 hour days, but there wasn't a whole lot of flexibility. And as a mom, that's hard. And the patient care side is stressful. And, you know, you know, we in healthcare, you know, we get into medicine to save lives. That's why we do this. And it sounds cliche, but it's true.
And I imagined as a healthcare provider, it would be something super rewarding, a stable career, and for my family, and and the learning never stops, and it doesn't. But health care is not for the faint of heart. It's one of the hardest careers out there, and especially with this pandemic, you know, it's very hard because there's so much emotion involved.
So it was starting to take a toll on me, and, you know, there's people you meet along your journey, and those are the people I met that have gotten to me where I am today. And so, you know, I did 10 years of the PhD research. I did 10 years of practicing clinical medicine, and and now here I am as a MSL, and I'm blending both of those, together, with, biodesics. That's been great. That's an awesome story. I mean, you have an awesome clinical background, and here you are.
You wound up in industry. And I hear I do hear this a lot from clinicians that they love what they do. They really love the fact that they're saving lives, and they get to interact with patients. But from a career standpoint, you're like, I this isn't something I wanna do for the rest of my life. Yeah. Right? It's great. So I I know that there are a lot of clinicians out there that would love to know how did you transition into industry? What did that look like?
Yeah. So, you know, like I said, you know, my last job in specialty, it wasn't, you know, entirely I wasn't entirely happy with that, but there was still stuff that was missing. And so, you know, I I I felt like, okay, what can I do? And I started, you know, I met, a really great friend, one of my best friends during my PhD time. Again, take advantage of all these people you meet along your journey because you never know when they're gonna come back and help you.
He started off as medical science liaison several years ago, and now, he's senior director of clinical development of one of the companies and another company. And, I've always gone to him for advice. I'm like, look, you know, you were in medicine before. Look what you're doing now. You know what? I don't know what to do anymore. I'm getting tired. And he said, you know, you really should look into the MSO role. It's the best job I ever had, like, best job.
And, you know, despite his recommendations for years, the thought of leaving medicine full time was terrifying to me. I I just I couldn't grasp that concept yet. And so, you know, I started looking into that. I had some other friends that have also left medicine for MSL. I started talking to them. There's also this amazing Facebook group called PA moms, that has amazing advice.
And I tell you, every week or so, there's at least one person that posts, you know, what else can I do that's not clinical because they were so burned out? And there's a few PAs on there that are MSLs, and they would comment, and, I started connecting with them. I started messaging them on Facebook, messaging them on LinkedIn. Hey. You know, tell me more about this. Tell me more about how you made that transition.
And I met people that are PAs that have PhDs, that are MSLs, that are, you know, that have doctorates that are that are PAs and MSLs, and I'm so grateful for all of them that have taken the time for those informal phone calls. And, you know, this is how I met my amazing manager, doctor Leona Hamrick. She's now our VP of clinical development and medical affairs, and she had just joined, my company, and was in charge of growing the MA team, that was small at the time.
And so we had connected really just a few weeks prior on LinkedIn because of these groups that I just talked about. And she messaged me, and she's like, hey. You know, I have this awesome opportunity that's opening up on the East Coast. And, you know, I said, well, you know, I have been looking more seriously for a few months. I've, you know, had a couple informal interviews here and there. So let's let's let's let's look into this.
And so I went through this formal interview process, 5 or 6 or more interviews on the team. I gave that oral presentation in front of the company, and then she offered me the the position. And so, I mean, she believed in me, And, you know, I'm definitely forever grateful, but it was really, you know, all these people I met along the way and then meeting her and the networking that that had me transition to that. So in a word, basically, networking Oh, yeah. Got you the job? 110%, all networking.
All networking. Mhmm. So with that, what advice would you give to someone who is a clinician looking to become an MSL? What else would you tell them? Yeah, so I mean, it's a really, really good question. And, you know, I get, gosh, now that I'm in the MSL role, I get people messaging me all the time, tell me more, you know, phone calls, and, and, you know, it is very challenging to get into the MSO role. You know that. I mean, you know that clearly. And so, you know, competition is fierce.
Everyone is so so smart. I mean, you know, you have to go outside your comfort zone. You have to talk to anyone and anyone. You have to build that network. And so, you know, I started off with creating that LinkedIn profile and using those keywords that, you know, recruiters or other people be looking at. So look at other MSL profiles and copy those, you know, to do that. Also, Samuel Dyer has an amazing book called How to break into your 1st MSL role.
Really, really good tips in that book, I'd recommend reading that and using it. The MSL Society meeting. Oh, my gosh. That was amazing meeting. I met so many people. There were so many, presentations that were helpful for, you know, an aspiring MSL or MSLs, already in practice managers MSLs. You know, read, the journal articles that the MSL Society has. They have great tips. And then, of course, your podcast. I mean, they're awesome. You have such amazing tips for people.
I discovered these after I met you at, the meeting, and I listen to them when I'm working out all the time, when I'm in the car, when I'm driving to visit with one of our, key opinion leaders, and they're really, really helpful. And, you know, that network becomes your family.
You know, some of the other advice I've learned, through the, presentations I've heard from managers is that, you know, really work on those soft skills, you know, the critical thinking, the problem solving, work on your public speaking, you know, be able to work in a team, which most health care providers can work in a team because that's really what it's all about. We're working as a team to save lives. Be independent, you know, be open minded too because you never know.
And then the last thing I give advice for, you know, for these people that are looking for their 1st MSL role because, you know, I know that you may be in that position where you're tired and, you know, you're burned out and you're trying to look for something else, but I really recommend being patient. Because when the time is right, it will happen. You know, you don't wanna just settle for anything.
I mean, you really wanna be patient and get the right position at the right time with the right manager and the right team. That's great advice. I mean, you're hired. If you ever wanna be a recruiter, like, you literally nailed it. Those are all the things that I find myself telling folks, aspiring MSLs all the time. So I, I I think that that's that's really, really good. I hope people are taking notes right now. I think that's really good advice.
Yeah. But let's switch let's kind of like, I wanna flip this conversation into I wanna hear your take on why clinicians make good MSLs. If there's hiring managers out there that are listening to this, what can you tell them? Oh, my gosh. I mean, that's it's an awesome question, and I think clinicians make excellent candidates for these positions. You know, it could be an MD, it could be a PA, NP, and even RNs. You know, we all have this extensive medical training and knowledge.
You know, we've worked in the field with patients. We've cared for them under under high stress environments, especially this COVID pandemic. I don't know when it's ever gonna end. And then, you know, we have, you know, we have this ability to really understand what it's like to be on the patient side, the patient care side.
So, you know, we can understand what, you know, our key opinion leaders, you know, these specialists that are working in these high stress environments may be facing on a daily basis. We've experienced that firsthand. We will have empathy if this provider has to cancel. We will have empathy if he has to run late for a meeting, and then we we know what they're going through. And, you know, traditionally, I will say, you know, as you know, the MSL role has been more PharmDs and PhDs in the past.
And I think these people make extremely valuable MSLs. They have detailed pharmacological backgrounds, scientific backgrounds, especially if they're, you know, the expert at that in their therapeutic area. And I think each degree, can offer something unique to the MSL, role. And, you know, having a well balanced team with a variety of those backgrounds would be extremely beneficial for the company.
I mean, what you're saying is validated by the fact that more and more companies are are looking for clinicians. So I think that that's that's very accurate. And now that you've landed into your first role and you've been doing this for a few months now. I know it hasn't been years, but you've been doing it long enough that I'm sure you've learned a few things. So why don't you share, if you can, with with everyone, all the clinicians and folks that are listening.
What have you learned since you've been in MSL, and what is there anything that surprised you? Yeah. So I started this position in, November. So it really only has been a few months, so I'm still, maybe. But I guess the question, what have I learned in the past few months? Oh my goodness. What haven't I learned? I feel like I'm constantly drinking from a fire hose. It is completely different than medicine, but it really is incredible.
You know, the one thing I think that I've learned so much is I have a much greater appreciation for what has to happen behind the scenes. And, you know, from what it be to clinical trials, to sales, to marketing, to getting insurance to cover a test, to meeting with the doctors and more. And I find it it's awesome how all these people work together for the one common goal to help that patient.
It's just a different level than what I've been doing the past 10 years of just direct one on one patient care. But it's it's it's so, so fascinating. You know, the other thing I will say, I've learned, you know, one of the key functions of MSLs is meeting with what we call these key opinion leaders. These are physicians or PAs and Ps. They're in clinical practice in academia or in the community.
And my role as MSL is not all about just helping spread the message of the company, but also equally important to bring that scientific information and that insights back to the company. So important to bring those insights back so we can, you know, move advanced medicine forward. And the other thing, this is quite funny, I've learned and my family has had to learn this too is, yes, mommy is home And but I'm still working.
And so even though my office is literally next door to the toy room, you know, I am working from home. And so they have to learn that. And, you know, the having that work life balance, you know, your office could be home, so you could get sucked into it and work, work, work, work, work all the time and making sure you have that work life balance. My manager is a huge promoter of this. You know, she tells me you have to be balanced in your life.
And so definitely when you are looking for a position, make sure you hire you get hired by someone that, you know, is a really good manager because it's so important. Some other things one other thing I learned you, you're learning every day. There's never a day I'm not learning. There's always diversity in my day. There's one day I could be working from home on multiple projects, helping more clinical trial team or marketing.
Another day I could be spending, you know, a couple days at a scientific conference gathering information and insights, bringing them back to the company. And then like this morning, I gave a presentation to one of the leading doctors at a university virtually, and that could be virtual or in person. So there's so much I've learned. I I know that there's so much more to learn, and I'm excited for what's next. Well, I'll tell you. I talked to I'm sure you probably know. I talked to a lot of MSLs.
I talked to a lot of MSL managers. You've it seems like you've been doing this for a long time. Like, you actually sound like someone who has a lot more years of experience than you do. So hats off to you and to Leona. I thought I I feel like I'm sending a message to Leona and telling her a great job in hiring you. But I don't probably don't have to. Sure he knows that. Yeah. So now, obviously, it it's never as easy as it seems.
So there's gotta be some challenges that you're going through right now. So let's talk about some of the challenges you're facing. Yeah. So, I mean, it's definitely challenging. You know? I mean, gosh. I remember the day I went to tell my old manager I was leaving, and I started having competitions like, oh my gosh. You know? And you get these comments, like, oh, you're going to the dark side, or you're going to the sales side. And so that's a big challenge.
A lot of people will say, oh, you're going to be a salesperson. And that's a big myth of MSL career. And so, you know, when I made this transition, to do this, I had to tell people, this is what I'm doing. I'm gonna be the scientific expert and sharing these insights. And, you know, I'm gonna be working with commercial and with sales and marketing. And my primary purpose is to foster those peer relationships with those key physicians and, KOLs. And we do this with professionalism, integrity.
And so that's been a challenge because you get those comments, you know, from some of the the peers that I that I came from, but that's okay. And then another big challenge, this this this is quite funny. We talked about this before we went on the recording is managing the virtualness and the technology and the constant stream of emails and the meetings and just getting used to that virtual workspace and seeing yourself on camera. It's really hard to get used to.
But, you know, it's definitely getting better. Some other things I've learned, you know, is that you have to be an independent learner. There's no one that's gonna be just babysitting you every minute of the day. You have to be independent. You have to be motivated. You have to schedule. You have to plan. You know, again, you know, working from home, you know, you have to be motivated to stay and get your work done.
Whereas I could be out playing in the snow right now because I'm snowed in my house, but I'm not. Some of the other challenges from the clinical side because, you know, this is more about clinicians trans listening, transitioning to an MSL role is, you know, this is more of a open ended position. So there are no RBUs as we call it in the clinical world where you're seeing 18 to 20 patients a day and you open the chart, you close the chart, you're done.
You know, this is more focused on quality interactions with, you know, your, your peers and with your collaborations, your KOLs, and networking. So you have to understand that that's what this is about, and it's not about just how many patients did you see that day, which is the benefit of it too, I think. That's why I love it.
And, yeah, those are the you know, I will say the other thing, my role as MSL in my company is a diagnostic company, and so it's it is a little different than traditional MSL in the pharma settings that we do, work, you know, together with a lot of our our teams, our marketing team, and sales team as well. So that I will point out that is different. And we are relatively new team. So we are a smaller company. We you know, I have to be motivated.
I have to lean on my team like, team teammates and my manager for the learning process. I've been shadowing other team members, sales reps, and and it's been very beneficial. And the last most important advice that, Leona tells me all the time is you have to give yourself grace because this is a new position, and there's so much to learn out there. And so you have to give yourself grace because you you can't just assume that you know everything right away. It's gonna take time. Good advice.
Love that. That's great. Wow. You know, again, I I feel like you're, you're really far along. So that's that's a credit to whoever's training you and getting you up to speed. So if there's practitioners and clinicians out there that are really interested in in industry Yep. What about, like, what skills do you feel are most important for them to develop? And, obviously, when you're looking to transition into a job, whatever job it is, you have to show that you have transferable skills.
So what do you think is most important for those people to know and to develop so that they can get noticed by people in industry? Yeah. So we briefly touched on this earlier. You know, we talked about the soft skills.
I heard this so much at the MSL Society meeting when the managers were talking about what recruiters are talking about, what they're looking for, you know, critical thinking, problem solving, public speaking, writing, teamwork, things like that, you know, being able to collaborate on a team, be okay to call for help, stay open minded, have the emotional intelligence as well.
And but I will say, you know, for those clinicians that are looking to be an MSL, don't undervalue your experience as a clinician. I mean, you've had this ability to listen and understand the patient and the provider perspective. I mean, you've trained extremely hard. You've learned how to take care of patients' lives. You've saved lives. You prescribed complicated medications, you've ran ACLS, you've, you know, held people's hands that are dying.
And so you provide, you know, such great value to the whole of MSL just because of your background. I mean, for sure, I would not underestimate. And then, again, the last thing, and I think this over and over, but be patient, because when the time will happen, it will happen, and it'll be the right position for you. Yeah. It's a competitive field. If you don't have patience, you're trying to break into this, you're gonna get burnt out quick.
Mhmm. Sure. Really, it's it's it's definitely a marathon. It's not a sprint. So if anybody's out there and you're looking to make a transition, just realize it's not you. It just takes time. And a lot of it happens to be the networking piece, right place, right time. I don't like to use the word luck because I don't think that I don't believe in luck. I believe that luck happens when hard work meets opportunity. Exactly. Something that I just truly believe in. So keep working hard.
Yep. Keep networking. Keep putting yourself in the right place, and then good things are gonna happen. Exactly. Let's talk a little bit about so you entered into this into industry, into an MSO role in a difficult time? Because we're still in the pandemic. Things are still in this hybrid virtual kind of thing. How difficult has that been for you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, virtual is different. I used to go to work at 6 AM every morning and face to face with people until 5, 6 PM at night.
So, you know, in person meetings and in person interactions are always the goal. Right? I mean, it creates more personal interaction with people. But, now so what I've been doing is more of a hybrid. I do some virtual, some in person. I've had a couple trips and conferences and things like that. And so the challenge of the virtual, you know, is, you know, it's gauging the audience. Right?
So you can't if you're giving an oral presentation and it's really hard with the Zoom, you can't see everybody there to see, are they really engaged? Are they listening? Are they really confused? Whereas in person, you can actually do that.
Virtually, again, we talked about this as you have to be independent about, you know, structuring your day and structuring your time because, you know, you could get carried away with something else and and playing in the snow or whatever maybe and not focused on it. But the other flip side is virtual creates so many opportunities to get more done in a little time.
So instead of spending a whole day traveling to New York for a visit, I could get that done within an hour and then accomplish maybe 5 other things that day. Right? So that's been that's been an advantage. And so, you know, just taking the time and staying motivated, and staying connected, with your with your team as well. We do a lot of team meetings, and and I feel like even though I've never well, I've only met a few of them. I've only met some of them in person.
But even though I haven't met a lot of them in person, I feel like I know them very well, because of all the meetings we've had virtually, and it's it's been good. Well, it sounds like you're doing great. What's so what's next for you? What I know it's a little early to be asking this, but where do you see yourself in 5 years from now? Or what's, like, next for you on your radar? You know, I I don't know. I have this you know, I always have, like you said, a hard work. Right?
You work hard and it'll pay off. And so I just wanna continue to work hard. And to me, I believe, let God lead that whatever next step for me, keep networking with people. I love my manager, Leona, and she's an inspiration. So, you know, whatever she can do to help me and mentor me. And I joined the, MSL or apply for the MSL mentorship program. So whatever they can offer advice to me too, and I'm just looking to grow, to continue to learn, and also to continue to give back.
So if there are clinicians out there that are looking to get into this role, like, I want to be that person to help you because there was people that helped me. So I want to, contribute back to them as well. So definitely anybody that has questions can reach out to me, through LinkedIn or or whatever. I'm sure you'll hear from folks. That's what we do here. You definitely will. So that's really nice of you to offer, and thanks for coming on. This has been great. Thank you. I appreciate it.
I know you're just come getting over a cold, and you, you rocked it. You totally rocked it. Thank you. So we'll have you having me. Again. Oh, no doubt. No doubt. Well, best of luck to you. Keep in touch. Okay. And keep cranking, man. I'm a big fan. I think you're gonna do some great things. Great. Thank you. No cartwheels today, though. Okay? No cartwheels today. There's video. Go on LinkedIn. There's video of the cartwheels. Just saying. Yep. Thank you. Have a good day. Thanks so much.
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