Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Bobby Faizan, executive director, medical affairs at Paratek Pharmaceuticals, and we talk about why and how to build a community MSL team. Bobby's awesome. I love this conversation. I think you guys are gonna enjoy it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and Instagram, and this video will be up on YouTube as well. And check us out on MSL talk live, which is now on LinkedIn live. That's the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Thank you for joining me. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey there, Bobby. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me, my friend. Ah, Tom. Thanks for having me. This is exciting, man. I haven't seen you in a long time. This is actually the first time I'm seeing you. I used to run into you at conferences and all that, but, first time I'm seeing you in a long time. So I'm excited.
Thank you for joining me and for being here, and thank you for bringing up this topic. I'm excited about this. Well, you know what, Tom? It's, it's a great opportunity. It's something that, you know, now my second company that it's come up as a as a, you know, a topic of conversation, and then we've actually, you know, explored what that expansion would look like. So, I'm, you know, excited to kinda share my thoughts and my my learnings along the way.
Hopefully, it helps others that are maybe even, thinking about the same thing. It definitely will. It definitely will. So but before we get into it, why don't we do a quick introduction? Let everyone know who you are, where you're from, and all that good stuff. Yeah. So hi, everyone. Bobby Fason. An executive director of field medical for Paratek Pharmaceuticals. It's a company that, has a an antibiotic, that's indicated community acquired bacterial pneumonia and skin and soft tissue.
I've been in the pharmaceutical industry for a little over 20 years, mostly in oncology, hematology, and now infectious disease, PharmD by by training. And, you know, like I said, I've known Tom a long time and, look forward to the to the interview. Yeah, man. Well, it's a long time coming. And, before I jump in, a quick shout out to our friends in Canada. So the numbers, we get our rankings each week of our listeners, and we've had a huge increase in the number of listeners in Canada.
So I wanna welcome all of you folks that are listening in Canada. Thank you, and thank you for sharing this podcast. That's why it's been one of the fastest growing podcast in pharma. So thank you, guys, and welcome anybody that's a new listener. So, Bobby, you came up with this awesome idea to talk about the community MSL. So let's start with if you could just describe what that is and how a community MSL differs from maybe a traditional or a therapeutic MSL?
Absolutely. So, Tom, before, just a disclaimer that, you know, whatever I say represents my own personal opinion, not those of Paratek. So just want to make sure everyone knows that, these are just my thoughts, my ideas.
Cool. So, you know, specific to the question, you know, as we look into the traditional MSL role, which was largely predicated on engaging top thought leaders, the academicians, educating them on the science so that they would go to the podiums, the major conferences, and, talk about your your product and share their their clinical, and scientific expertise. But now, what, you know, obviously, we're all, facing the same thing, changing health care environment.
You know, it's more, focused on who the end users are. And these are the clinicians that are actually seeing the majority of patients, that are now creating their own formularies, pathways, treatment guidelines in a lot of ways. And so as a field medical team, it's it's engaging that customer segment.
So when I talk about the need to have a community MSL team, it's really having a medical science liaison engaging what we now term as these clinical leaders, that are largely in these, community practices. So it's a little bit of a different slant. So simplistically put, the community MSL is an MSL that that largely engages the community healthcare providers. Makes sense. Totally makes sense. And we're obviously seeing it become more and more popular.
And I know you've had a lot of success in building out teams of community MSLs. So can we talk about that model? Right? Like, how does that model come into being, and how does a company, move forward in that direction? Yeah. So, you know, maybe if you look at what an MSL does in a in a broad sense, engaging, KOLs and how you define that KOL, is probably the driver for this conversation.
But then you think about data generate data generation, whether it be investigator initiated trials or company sponsored trials, insight gathering, meetings, and symposia coverage. So those are, you know, kinda your common, you know, objectives for for a field medical team. And specific to the to the community MSL, they obviously can take part in a number of these things. But it really gets down to how you define the customer segment.
And that's really where I differentiate, like I said, the community MSL from, let's say, a traditional or the academic KOL or academic MSL. Got you. So you're saying from a strategic standpoint, companies need to first establish where their market is, who they're really ultimately targeting, get into a heavy KOL mapping territory planning type of exercise, and then initiate how they're going to deploy this team, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
You know, it all it all comes down to, you know, resources and how you define the workload. Yeah. And like I said, you know, if you'd if you look at it by customer segment, keeping in mind that the objectives are are very similar, then it's really identifying how many headcount you need to identify how many customers. And just out of curiosity, how did you do that? Were there third party vendors that you leaned on for that? How does that take place?
Yes. So, you know, in the in the beginning when I started this, and this was obviously with another company Mhmm. We used a vendor. And and that vendor obviously provided, KOL mapping, and then, you know, kind of identified how many KOLs per MSL. And that kind of gave you a roundabout number of headcount that you would need, for for that team. You know, now, quite honestly, there are a number of, tools, platforms that you can utilize.
You know, I've I've been a part of, platforms like Monocle or H1 or now VivaLink, which is one of the platforms, we're using that does a lot of that work for you. Yeah. So if you have familiarity with utilizing that, you can save yourself quite a bit of money. Yeah. And it's it's it's funny. You look at the medical affairs space now. It's totally different than it was 5, 10 years ago, where there's all these great, vendors out there that provide such awesome services. Quick shout out to h one.
You mentioned h one. They're a sponsor of this podcast. Aerial cats was on recently. Check out that episode if you haven't already, but, they do an amazing job. Those guys are awesome, so I'm a big fan. So now so getting back to this model, it sounds like the real differentiating factor is who the MSLs will actually call on. So I'm assuming that the engagement strategy differs in what those conversations might look like. So can you talk about that?
Yeah. So even when I say the word community and the community MSL, it's a very complex environment, you know, much like the academic, you know, the academic centers, as well and who those key decision makers are. But in the community, you're largely focusing not only on physicians, but also, the advanced practice providers, the nurse practitioners or PA, which is which is a a huge customer segment that's exploding. Mhmm. And and so you're right, Tom, that the conversation is very different.
When you're if you're used to talking to an academician, you're talking high science, they already know, the basics of the disease state, and probably more in-depth than than the traditional MSL. But when you're in a community environment, you're talking to a mid level, you have to remind yourself to maybe go over the specific sort of the high level disease state, where your drug, fits, and really focus that scientific discussion to that provider.
And each provider, obviously, would look at it a little bit differently based on their level of experience and training. Sure. And this is gonna be an obvious question. The answer is probably really obvious too, but I have to ask it. So when you're hiring for your community MSL team, are you looking for a diverse mix of talent that would include maybe nurse practitioners and, advanced practice nurses and clinicians as you're doing this recruiting? Absolutely.
You know, and so you're going now outside of the traditional MSL role. And if you look at the customer segment, thinking about what that ideal MSL skill set would need to be to engage that customer segment. Yeah. You have to include nurse practitioners or PAs, that are familiar with the community environment. I mean, these are these are, health care providers that are extremely busy. Mhmm. They're they're working, around the clock. They are seeing, you know, more than 20, 30 patients a day.
So you're not gonna get the 45 minutes to an hour sitting in a academic's office talking about the science. You have to be very, very focused, and a lot of times, really high level in your conversation. You know, you know, commercial side, they talk about the elevator pitch. I think in the community setting, the community MSL has to be thinking, you know, what's my 3 minute? What's my 5 minute? Maybe what's my 15 minute conversation look like?
What are the key points that I wanna emphasize in this in this discussion? Because that that mid level or that community health care provider is is busy. And they're, you know, they're right in the middle of seeing patients. So you've gotta be very focused and very, sensitive to to to their time. That makes total sense.
And, you know, getting back to the you know, these clinicians that are that are, that are in this space as community MSLs, would you say the message one of the messages to medical affairs leaders looking to adopt this model is to be mindful that they need to put that in the hiring plan, in the job description, to be able to say, you know, seeking either experienced MSL professionals or those with these backgrounds, but certainly not just say, oh, we
need PharmDMD PhD, but open it up to these clinicians as well. Yes. I mean, that's, that I think that's very, very well summarized and very well stated. You know, I I think back here again to the traditional MSL and what that ideal candidate looked like. And it was someone that not only had the clinical scientific background, but had the industry experience. Mhmm. So you knew how to navigate an institution, and to develop relationships that were more long term focus.
And quite honestly, those that had existing relationships, You know, now in a in a community setting, you need someone that has the clinical experience, that had, obviously, experience in a community setting, And that can have the conversations with a much broader customer segment of experience, whether it be a nurse practitioner, which, you know, clearly are much more empathetic and much more patient focused. So you have to refine that conversation to what their priorities are.
To the PA, very similar. And to that, the practicing physician that now is overseeing a much larger practice. Right. Probably seeing the more difficult patients. Well, in a message, anyone that's listening to this that's a clinician that's on the job market, you need to now be changing your search when you go on to whether it's Indeed or LinkedIn or SimplyHired or just Google. You need to use the word community medical science liaison now.
Start seeking these positions because you, based on exactly what Bobby's saying, are now a great candidate for those jobs. So keep that in mind. Just a quick public service. No. And and it's it's it's a good reminder. And maybe we'll talk a little bit about this, Tom, but this might be your entry level, MSL. This might be the person that doesn't have that industry experience that we oftentimes sought out, you know, in our traditional MSL role.
This might be the practicing, clinical pharmacist or nurse practitioner or a PA that, had, you know, always wanted to work in the pharmaceutical industry as an MSL, but didn't have that MSL experience. This might be that entry level and just a point for considerations. One of the things I I, you know, I don't have the answer to, but I think about, does this now become part of the career ladder?
Yeah. So a platform so this the community medical science liaison could actually be a really good platform for that aspiring MSL as they're looking to transition into industry. Again, you now need to realize that if you if you're doing your searches, add that word community before MSL or before medical science liaison, take Bobby's advice. I think that's awesome.
I think people are gonna be really excited to hear that there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that are looking to break in. So let's get back to the engagement piece. So I I I like all of that information that you were you were sharing about, these clinical practice leaders and, and the engagement piece, how how would you say access differs for community MSL and a traditional MSL, if it does differ? No. It it it differs in it. And, you know, it differs, in a number of ways.
You know, one one area in particular that I've noticed, and this is a general, observation, is it, it does introduce, the need for for providing a meal. You know, I mentioned that these are, very busy health care providers. So, you know, it's not necessarily traditional that an MSL brings in a breakfast or a lunch. It's oftentimes that's been reserved for the commercial, organization.
But now realizing these are all all very busy people, and the only time that they really have time to sit down and talk with you is over a meal. So you're starting to see or at least I'm starting to see, the need to provide a meal, as a as a way to not only gain access, but to just have the time to to have the conversation. Yeah. Well, that's great advice. I think people need to understand that that's that's an that's like an old school technique.
I mean, I was a rep a 1000000 years ago, and I made a living on bringing in lunches for for docs. But because of the, you know, the Sunshine Act and compliance and, you know, a lot of the restrictions, a lot of people tried to are getting away from any act of kindness that includes having to dip into a budget. But you're saying that that's something that is pretty common and relevant in this space? It is.
And it's something for budgetary consideration if you're exploring, hiring a community based ESL team. That is gonna be one thing that will, you know, will generate a little bit more budget, concern. Just you don't typically don't see their travel, go up quite a bit, but the the meal expenses do go up. Yeah. That's good. That's The other thing with access, in a community is something, Tom, we used to talk about way back when. You navigate the gatekeepers.
Yeah. And that's something that is reintroduced as a as a skill just to be aware. How do you how do you navigate a community practice? Mhmm. And and being aware that the person at the front door at registration is someone that you have to build a relationship with that can help you, meet the people you need to meet with. Oh, absolutely.
That's that's just that's again, that's one of the arts of being a successful field, you know, medical person is to be able to to develop those relationships, know where you're getting your information, who's getting you in the front door, who's scheduling you, or how to get scheduled, all those things. So that just as we're talking about this, just just reminds me of the commercial piece of this. And so is the relationship with commercial very different for a community MSL?
So I'll say yes and no. I mean, I think, you know, and I think every company and product, depending on where they're at in their life cycle, this conversation waxes and wanes. But in a in a kind of a traditional sense, even as an MSL that's focused on academicians, that degree of communication and collaboration between field medical and commercial exists. Does it need to exist more in a community setting? You know, I would say I would say, generally speaking, yes.
And and it goes back to what we just talked about, you know, access. You know, who has the relationship? You know, now you're in a community setting. You know, you might not be the person with the relationship. It might be that, that sales associate that's been calling on that practice for a number of years. Maybe that's the person that has the relationship that, you know, at least can open the door for introduction.
So, yeah, I think communication is very important between the field medical and the and the sales associates. And I think particularly in a community based MSL team, I think that communication collaboration is very, very important. Yeah. So what are the disadvantages to deploying a community MSL team, if there are any? Yes. There are. There are disadvantages, particularly if you have a traditional MSL.
If you have a traditional MSL team and some of the things that I've encountered is that sense that the traditional MSLs are at a different level. And, you know, you always, you know, you have some very smart people, whether they're a community MSL, or a traditional MSL, that take great pride in what they've accomplished clinically, scientifically, professionally, right?
So, you have to create that team environment that they see each other as peers and colleagues, and that emphasizing the need for open communication and collaboration. They have to be able to work together. And it's it's tough. If you've had a team that's been traditional MSLs, that's been focused on academicians, they kinda consider themselves, you know, at a little bit of a higher level than a a community based MSL that just started with the company that may not have the industry experience.
And you can see how that, creates a little bit of a of a challenge, which is why I mentioned, you know, maybe that becomes the opportunity for a career wheel where that becomes a community MSL becomes an entry level, and then can can advance up to, you know, a traditional or academic MSL. It makes sense. It really does make sense.
But I do think that just like anything else, when you're a community MSO or a therapeutic MSO, you have an opportunity to stand out, to shine, and to, you know, to make an impact. So I I think it's important to to make sure that the value of the community MSO, is, you know, equal to in in many ways and shouldn't be looked at as lesser than what a traditional therapeutic MSL is based upon what I'm seeing from my clients and from what you're saying.
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like I said, it's, it's a work in progress, quite honestly, learning as we go. Like I said, this is kind of my second time, building out a community MSL team. Mhmm. And, you know, some of the things that I learned doing it the first time, I've applied it to the 2nd time. But, you know, it's a different environment. And, you know, it's they're not necessarily the same, the same challenges. Right.
So it's just something that I think we, as leaders, have to be open and mindful of. You know, the other thing is, how do you define the territories? Does the community MSL have a smaller territory, therefore, less travel where the traditional or the academic MSL has much larger territories that travel more. That becomes now, something that one might favor more than the other. Maybe I wanna travel more or maybe I don't wanna travel more.
So just different things that, you know, have gone into this conversation, that, you know, you just gotta make those decisions, and what's best for your team and your organization. And I imagine metrics are different too. I would imagine. Well, metrics factor in. Right? You would typically think that a community based MSL can see more people. They go into an office and there's 10 or 12 health care providers practicing in that that community setting.
You know, they should be able to see at least half of them. Right? So then the actual key performance indexes, you're right, the metrics, would favor more quantitative assessments. But, that doesn't necessarily play out, at least what I've seen. And it's, you know, how you how you put that into descriptors when you're hiring the team and assessing the team.
I think as a general rule, MSLs, whether they be community or academic, don't necessarily want to see, you know, quantitative metrics as part of their performance. Yeah. Well, that's true. It's a tough one. It's another. It's probably another podcast. That's a whole another discussion. Yeah. You know, then they get into the, you know, we're not super reps. Right? So thinking about this model and thank you. Like, I really learned a lot. There's this is some really great information.
I think this is gonna be a very pop popular episode. Is this is this model for everyone? I don't believe so. But you know what? I say that, and then I start thinking about the changing health care providers, and the changing health care landscape. And and maybe it it it it does provide at least the argument for consideration. And here again, I think about if I had a product that's, let's say, 1 year prior to launch, and typically that's when your MSL team's kinda ramping up.
They're they're talking to the academic thought leaders. They're really making sure that the awareness of the disease state and reactively about the data that's, you know, being, pulled together for for submission to the FDA. That's that's what we traditionally did. But the community, the clinical leaders that I talk about, these are the ones that are gonna be using your product at launch. So they need to be aware. They need to inform their formularies.
They need to incorporate where they're gonna put this into their treatment guidelines, and their clinical pathways. So I you know what? I think they they need to be as were aware the same time the academicians need to be aware. Because they they have to prepare, for how they're gonna use the product. Because the patients now are gonna, you know, now with social media and, in the digital space, patients are gonna find out that your product's available.
So as a healthcare provider, you need to be informed. Yeah. So, I, you know, I think it creates the argument that, you know, you can't forget about the community space. You know? Oh, no doubt. Yeah. I mean, the more we talk about it, the more obvious it seems. So I think that there's there's gonna be a lot more of this that we're gonna see out there.
And because of that, as a as a leader in this space, what advice do you have for another leader that's about to embark on this type of, you know, building out this type of model within their organization? Yeah. You know what? I think you've got to know the space and know it, extremely well. And then think about clearly defining what your field medical team is going to do and how it's going to contribute to the, to the priorities of the product and the organization.
And I think based on that, will help you define or just decide, do I have an academic MSL team? Do I have an academic and community MSL team? Or do I have an MSL team that maybe calls on academicians and clinical leaders? You know, kind of, I hate to use the term hybrid role because that takes on a whole another connotation, but one that is nontraditional, that's not just on the top academicians.
Because we've we've now introduced, which we used to call the KOLs, and I'll use that term broadly, the key opinion leader. And we've included now key decision maker Mhmm. Into that mix. We've, you know, now, defined the digital opinion leader, that one that's on Twitter, and has a number of followers that, you know, talks about their clinical experience. So, we've really now defined a much broader, scope for a field medical team.
And I think each product, each disease state may be in a little bit different. And therefore, really defining what that customer segment is for your field medical team will better define what MSL team you need to, put together. Great advice, man. This whole this whole conversation was amazing. Thank you for joining me. That was the fastest 30 minutes I think I've had in this podcast in a long time. That was such an easy conversation. So, yeah, man. We gotta do this again.
We have I'm sure there's there's part 2 coming. So, any last piece of advice for the MSLs out there that might be looking to forge ahead in their careers? You know what, Mike? And thank you for that opportunity as well to to the MSLs out there. And I, you know, I follow a number of them. You know, I meet them at your meetings and other MSL society meetings. You know, think about where these opportunities are.
I mean, you've got to do your own home homework and, you know, follow these companies where they're investing, and think about what your opportunities if you're really looking to position yourself, to to take advantage of these opportunities, you have to really focus on who's who's, who's really growing in those spaces. And, you know, get out, meet people. I mean, that's I think that's the the call to, you know, let's get back to attending these meetings and meeting people face to face.
That's there's there's just really no substitute to the face to face interactions for sure. No doubt. I totally agree. But good stuff. We'll leave it at that, Bobby. Thank you again for for joining, and thanks everyone for listening. Thank you guys for sharing this. If you found value in it, tell some friends and and share it online, or just make some comments on LinkedIn. But I appreciate you all. And, Bob, thanks again. We'll come back to do this again. Thank you, Tom. Take care.
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