Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Deanna Murray. She's MSL team lead at Sarepta, and we talk about what makes KOLs tick and what makes a more effective MSL. So great conversation. Deanna was awesome. I think you guys are really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube and Instagram, and check us out on MSL talk live on Clubhouse, which is the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 pm Eastern time. Thanks for joining.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Deanna. How are you doing? Thanks for joining me. I'm doing well, Tom. Thank you so much for asking me to join you today. I'm so excited to be here. Well, I'm excited to have you. I think everybody's gonna be really excited about the stuff we're talking about. So you and I had a conversation, and we just went with it, and here we are. And I think it's a really timely topic.
So before we get into it, why don't we do an introduction? Let's get that part of it out of the way, and then we'll, we'll jump into it. Sounds good. Awesome. So, my name is Deanna Murray Tucker, and I am currently at Sarepta Therapeutics. I've been in the pharma world and medical affairs, MSL world for just over 17 years. So I'm a PharmD by education and started as a clinical pharmacist and then made my way over to industry and have loved it ever since. And you're awesome, by the way.
I know you do an amazing job. And, before we go we get started, just quick shout out. Just wanna make a quick announcement that the MSL Talk Podcast is coming close to 100 1,000 unique downloads. That means 100,000 listeners. So I just wanna thank everybody for your support and thank everybody for listening. So just wanted to mention that. Yeah. Hi. Listen. You, Deanna, came up with an amazing topic. What makes KOLs tick? So let's just jump into that.
And in this so we're in this crazy world of limited KOL access. Right? So what advice would you have for MSLs as they approach their KOLs and trying to kinda figure out, you know, what makes them tick? Yeah. But, you know, if even if you you know, I kind of view this in 2 different in 2 different ways. So you can be new to your KOLs. I mean, I've switched therapeutic areas and have had to kind of establish myself with new KOLs, or you can be somebody who's very well established with your KOLs.
Maybe you've been in the therapeutic area for a number of years. I think both of those scenarios, we still look for ways to engage our KOLs even if we've had a long term standing relationship with them. So when I think about establishing that new KOL relationship and understanding them, I think as MSLs, first, we have to listen. We have to ask questions. You know, KOLs love to talk about themselves. They love to talk about things that they're interested in.
And and I think if we hone in on that, like, what are your interests? You know? Do you do more research? You in clinic? You know, I'm in the field of neuromuscular medicine, and while I'm in one very unique aspect of it, it doesn't necessarily mean that that is the KOL's interest. And so I think that just understanding what their interests are. And and, you know, some people really build relationships by understanding interests that are outside of work.
You know, maybe you do an a sporting activity, they're saying. Maybe you're both runners. Maybe you're both avid outdoor people. You know, whatever it is, sometimes you can connect. It doesn't always have to be scientific, but, you know, anything you can do, to just shape that. And then, you know, for for those you know, if you're in the situation where you kind of know your KOLs, known them for a long time, you always have to reinvent, like, how do you how do you reengage them?
You know, maybe there's some new things going on in the therapeutic area. Maybe your company isn't necessarily on that track. But just engaging them from, hey. I was, you know, I was on a virtual conference, and I was really interested in this aspect of neurology. Like, can you kinda help me understand a little bit about that? You know, engaging them in something that isn't necessarily your wheelhouse, but just helps you understand where they're at. Maybe their research has changed.
So starting off with some of those really simple topics. So you wanna make, obviously, you just wanna make it about them. You wanna figure out what it is that is of interest to them, both professionally and personally, and just keep that in your mind so that as you're preparing for that meeting, that's you're trying to work that into the dialogue.
Absolutely. And, you know, I know all of us who work in industry, we have access to all of the, public searches, whether it's PubMed, Embase, or whatever, where you can go and see, have they published something recently in the last year? You know, you can you know, everybody likes acknowledgment of a publication that they were part of. You know, you could read it and brush up on that and just say, hey, you know, doctor, I I noticed you published an article, a couple months ago.
I read it with interest, and I think that's really neat. And then formulate a question based on that. You know, that could be one of their areas of interest. You know, for example, I have a really wonderful who does, he's primarily a research KOL. He does see patients in clinic, but his focus is really research. And so I was tooling around, just kind of looking at some of the stuff he's presenting at a conference coming up.
And then I went and looked at, you know, what has he published in the last 2 or 3 years, and it was all focused on imaging of muscles and looking at the blood flow that comes through to that. And, you know, that was a really fun way to engage him.
He actually taught me a lot about it, and come to find out, that's a very important aspect of some of our own clinical trials and kind of understanding, you know, that that whole mechanism of muscle movement and what happens with blood flow to the muscle, and that's really a big area of interest. And it's funny because it didn't really come up in a lot of our conversations because we were so focused on the clinical trials he was gonna be participating with us. You know, we kinda missed that.
And so it was a really fun way to engage him. You know, I found that he just really lights up when you talk about that area within neuromuscular. So I think it's a great way to, you know, have a good conversation with your KOLs. Well, and I guess you, you know, you tune in to stuff like that. Like, you figure out what makes KOLs tick because if you see them light up, clearly, you know you've hit a hot button. And you could tell when someone's getting excited about a certain topic.
It just it's one of those things that you have to have that intuitive nature. I know when you and I were first talking about this topic, we were thinking about making the the title of this episode, the proactive versus the reactive MSL. So, like and I know that that could be controversial. Like, when you use the word proactive MSL, like, it makes leaders cringe because they're worried that, like, a proactive MSL is gonna be a compliance nightmare.
But let's let's talk about, like, some of the proactive approaches and things that MSL is really kinda need to do to to really understand their KOLs better. No. I think that you're right. You know, whenever MSLs think about pro proactive and reactive materials, it is based upon product, on label, off label, disease state. So if you work at a company where you really are just able to be, quote, unquote, reactive, then everybody can engage about disease state.
You know, everybody can engage about what is going on in clinic. You know, what type of patients are they seeing? What are their pain points in clinic? You know, even knowing in the back of your mind, you might know the amount of data that's out there in your specific therapeutic area. Where's data gaps? What patient populations haven't been studied? And a lot of that can garner some really great discussions that have nothing to do with product.
You know, and you're you're really tuning into, you know, what are your pain points in clinic? What are those difficult conversations that you have with patients and families? You know, and in your mind as an MSL, knowing, you know, the development programs, knowing where the data is being generated, is there anything there that you can take back? You know, maybe there's a data gap where, you know, you're missing data in a certain patient population or in a certain aspect.
Maybe somebody needs cardiac data. You know, are we looking at cardiac data? You know, especially if you can see those common threads coming through the insights report. You know, KOLs ask all the time, do you have cardiac data? Are we looking at cardiac data? We're gathering it in our trials, but have we analyzed it and reported it? So I think for those MSLs who truly have to be reactive with data, engage in those disease state topics that you can still glean a lot of information from.
And sometimes those really can work their way into the KOL asking you a question about data or about a product. You know, I've certainly seen the door open whenever I've worked in a situation where the, you know, the the most important recent data is only approved for reactive use, and you're trying to get them to ask you a question so you can open the door. And if you can prove enough in that proactive realm, then sometimes that, you know, that question will come your way.
You know, as as you're talking, I can't help but think about the importance of preparation. And so what's your feeling on pre call planning, and how do you recommend your MSLs prepare for meetings? You know, it's funny because every time we've ever gotten together and talked as a team, well, pre COVID when we were doing things in person, I remember distinctly a meeting that we had at Sarepta, back in early 20 19, and we brought a company in to, really talk about that whole process.
And, you know, it's funny because you hear pre call planning and some people will say, well, that sounds kinda sales y. And it's like, no. It's not. But if you if you think about it, and especially in the virtual world where we're not going from car, train, airplane, or whatnot, you really can fit. You know? So if I have an appointment coming up with a KOL, I might run through PubMed or Embase.
I might look through you know, right now, we have a lot of, we have a lot of communication going on between our clinical operations group and our site investigators. So maybe there's an internal group that you need to reach out to and say, hey. I'm getting ready to talk to this physician. Is there any points of follow-up? Anything I can help close the loop on for you? Have you had trouble reaching out? Also just kind of thinking in your mind, like, you we always have our agenda.
This is what we wanna talk about. And then, of course, we've gotta think about the KOL, what's in it for them? You know, what value am I gonna be able to bring? And so, you know, I think if you can just kinda plan out and prioritize, okay, I wanna talk about this, I wanna talk about the recent conference, I wanna ask about clinical trial, you know.
And then also I think one of the most important things, because, you know, sometimes we can get wrapped up in our own agenda, is to ask them, what's going on in your world? You know, what questions do you have for me, for my company, you know, things like that to to understand that their agenda is just as important. And I think if you sit down you know, pre pre call planning doesn't have to be a long, you know, expansive thing.
But if you can just write down some notes, think about what you talked about last time. Was there any follow-up? Was there any issues that they had, you know, that you just need to recall? You know, sometimes, I'll even reach out to my commercial counterparts, and I'll say, you know, hey. I have a I have a call coming up with this physician. Is there anything your from your perspective that I need to be aware of?
Because they have their own business with the physician, and knowing that I've got time with them, is there anything that I need to be mindful of going into the conversation? Yeah. I mean, that's that's just brilliant. Why wouldn't you? I mean, that's that in that's information and insight that you're not gonna get on your own. Or you might get it after the fact. Yeah. And they you know, nobody nobody likes to be caught in the deer in the headlights when it Yeah. Says, yeah.
I just talked to a team at Sarepta. You're like, hey. Exactly. So you could just kind of, you know, gather as much intel from your colleagues as you can. You can pick up on some things, and that might even change the way your your entire agenda was. Yeah. You know?
But and in this world of very limited access, you know, with us being primarily virtual, sometimes it's helpful if one person has the appointment, if if you can just get a sense of what's going on from the company, then that's helpful. It's efficient. Yeah. Without a doubt, that internal collaboration piece is is is important. And I don't think it's utilized enough as much as it should be.
So the funny thing is when I thought about this topic, one of the first things I thought of was, what makes KOLs tick? Well, if it's me, I'm the first thing I'm gonna do is ask questions. I'm gonna try to find out, especially if it's a new relationship. But even if it's an existing relationship, it's always important to ask the right questions on each visit. So you mentioned a couple, but I'm curious. Like, what what do you think are the most important and most relevant questions to ask KOLs?
Real to get some real insight about what, you know, what makes them tick. Okay. I think where we are right now with this pandemic, I always like to know what's going on in their world. Are they still doing telemedicine? Are they half and half? Or they're part hybrid, part in person? I work a lot with the research teams at a given institution. So it's like, okay. What's going on with them? You know, just kinda level setting. Where are things at with your practice? Are your patients coming in?
You know, just understanding, you know, from a COVID perspective, how their world continues to evolve. And that's gonna be very regionally different. You know? We know that there's still places that have a lot of restrictions and places that have less restrictions, but I think understanding where they're at. I think one of the other things that we have to be mindful of since in some ways, we're kind of hitting the reset button on a lot of this. You know, we've just been in this pandemic.
We're trying to find our our path forward. You know, what what life looks like between an MFL and a and a health care provider is, you know, ask them, like, are you able to meet face to face? Do you prefer virtual? How often should we meet? You know, and even even whether you're meeting them for the first time, you know, just, hey. You know, what what topics from my world are you interested in?
You know, I think the MSL the MSL Society did such a wonderful survey recently, and they they surveyed clinicians and asked them, or it's mainly physicians, asked them, you know, do you visit with an MSL? You know, what what are those it's almost like trying to figure out what is the subject that's most likely to elicit a response on an email. And I think it was like a data update, drug update, scientific updates, things like that.
And so I think if we ask our physicians, you know, what's most valuable to you that I can bring you? And I think anytime we're at a place where we've hit a reset button is, you know, what's going on in your practice, How are you seeing patients? Any pain points there? What of value can I bring to you, and how often should we meet? And, you know, face to face, digitally, what works best for you? You can take that conversation kind of anywhere. Yeah. That's no. That's awesome.
That's really good stuff, and I think that that really positions you. I mean, if you don't have if you're not taking that approach and you don't have that basis of knowledge, I really think you're creating a disadvantage for yourself because you don't have an understanding of how that k o l expects you to transact business. Yeah. Yeah. Which leads me to the next question, because I I know that you had mentioned, and I thought that this was really important.
Well, you had mentioned how important it is to really know what information you need to present to the KOL and when. So can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. So I think that, you know, it's interesting because when I look at the landscape of KOL, kind of going back to that example, You know, some KOLs, if you look at their 5 day work week, you know, they might have 4 and a half days dedicated to research. Half a day is dedicated to the clinic, you know, that isn't research based.
So the way that I would engage with that KOL, they're probably not super interested in updates on commercial drugs because it's not what they spend their time in. They do need to kind of know that there's updates, you know, but it doesn't need to be the focus of what you're gonna talk to them about. So with research focused, KOLs, it's really to focus, you know, what are your timeline updates? You know, has the company announced the updates to the timeline?
Because, you know, are they also, are they involved with your research? You know, at at my company, we're very fortunate in that the MSL team is very involved with site selection, study start up, continuing to support the site that they kick off and start enrolling patients. And so, you know, it's important for us to have that open line of communication on, you know, protocol hang ups, protocol changes, you know, things that are important to them on their day to day.
I always update them as well on on our FDA approved products because they might still see patients on their clinic days that are eligible. So they need to kinda know some of that too, but I think it goes back to understanding what your clinicians are interested in. So the opposite is true. You know, you might have somebody that doesn't do any research at all. They are primarily a clinic clinician seeing patients all day every day, 5 days a week.
So they're not gonna be as interested in the nuts and bolts of clinical development. So it's important to keep them updated from a timeline standpoint. Like, you might say, you know, for your patients, this drug will be available, we're hoping, in about a year. You know, because you can imagine the conversation that he's having with his patients that have treatment options available to them. What do those treatment options look like?
The ones that are in clinical development, when will they be here? You know? That's really kind of the conversation to have there. So I think it's important to kinda understand what your KOLs do full time, you know, within their 5 day work week, and then really customize the information that you bring to them based on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I thought I I I think that's I think, again, I think it's brilliant.
I think it's a really important piece of the equation, and I think it's gonna I think it makes a big difference because I think a lot of times when MSLs meet their KOLs and they go through whether it's virtual or whether it's live, and they go through kind of a full meeting, you leave. And I know this from being out in the field. You leave and you never truly know. Did I nail it? Did I give him everything I want? It's not like you get a scorecard.
It's not like you get immediate feedback, and it's like, hey. High five to you. You just totally nailed it. So I think that's really insightful. I can't I have to make, like, in before this conversation ends, and I'm gonna ask you now because I think it's time. I'm curious to hear from you, and I know that the listeners are definitely curious. Do you have any creative ways for KOL access?
And, you know, we're talking about women's KOLs tick, but I know that there's a lot of people out there whenever we have these conversations about KOL engagement, it's always like any creative ways to gain access in this day and age. Yeah. And, you know, your podcast has actually given me some ideas that I never think about. Like, I know people have gone to social media. They've looked at Twitter. After I heard that episode, I went to Twitter.
I'm not a common Twitter user, but I started looking at some of the big KOLs in my therapeutic area, and they're they're not as active. I was kind of bummed, but I think that was so innovative, just to kind of look at what the discussions are. I've even looked at LinkedIn to see if, my KOLs are on there, and connected with them through LinkedIn.
In you know, right now, like, with virtual versus face to face, like, for instance, if if an institution isn't allowing, we kinda get grouped under that whole vendor umbrella because we're not hospital employee or we're not a family of a patient. But if the institution doesn't allow vendors then and the and the physician or the health care provider is willing to meet with you, you know, go have coffee together outside of the institution.
You know, that, you know, that's one of the things that I would even use pre COVID is, you know, it was easier to access, you know, the coffee place rather than going through the depths of the basement to try to find their office. You know, I think that even asking, like, how physicians like to be engaged. You know, they like email. Maybe their email inboxes are overflowing. Like, I remember a KOL telling me one day that they get several 100 emails a day.
And so you can imagine yours just kinda goes into the the pot there. And, you know, I've heard people say, well, if you email at a certain time of day, they're more likely to be sitting at their desk, like, in the morning or the late afternoon. Some KOLs really prefer text. You know? That's their that's their easy way.
I think that that sets up you know, first of all, they've given you they have to give you permission to call on their cell phone, and then you also have to be mindful of the working hours and the clinic hours. You don't wanna text, you know, while they're in clinic. You know, I think that a lot of KOLs have time set aside for, like, office hours. You can understand when that might be.
I think once we get back to in person conferences, that's where some of the best relationship building can happen because you're they're gonna come by the booth, you're gonna see them in the posters, you're gonna see them in a session, you might be able to invite them out to dinner, invite them to a company sponsored event. You know, and I think also understanding what brings them value.
Because in the world of limited time, everybody has limited time, if you if you know that something is valuable to a a KOL and that's what you bring them, I think you're more likely to get a response from that email rather than if the KOL doesn't feel you are of value may not get. And that's that's a whole different conversation of itself is how do MSLs bring value to the KOL? But that's the fact understanding kind of what makes them tick, what's of interest to them. Well, it's interesting.
I just saw a video of Mark Cuban. You know, Mark Cuban from Shark Tank and, you know, the bazillionaire. And he said that one of the most important lessons and one of the most important strategies for anyone in a customer facing role or any employee is to figure out how to be a problem solver. If you can figure out how to reduce the stress of your client, of your k o l, of your manager, your employer, you will be perceived at greater value.
So if we think about that, I mean, it's a very simple concept. Try to solve problems. That's there's no better value add than to solve somebody's problems or reduce stress for somebody. So I thought that that was really insightful. How how are things what are you seeing as far as, you know, in like, is it hard for your team to kinda hit their metrics and their goals? You know, are things turning around? Like, where do you see things going?
I'm just kinda curious as to as we kinda close out here, you know, your your impression of of where things are where things are and where they're going. So we are very fortunate here in that, a, we don't have a numerical metric that we're held to. And that that kinda goes back to my job of ensuring that MSL insights are reported and that the the the tea the quality of the team's interactions are highlighted above quantity.
And, you know, and I think in the background, we do you know, I I get a report every Friday that shows quantitative measures, and I see that. I think that and we've been fortunate in that we have a continual flow of new data that comes out across our therapeutic programs, so that isn't always the norm. I've worked in places where you're at an advanced life cycle management, and the data well's kinda running dry. You know, there's not anything new.
And so right now, we're really enjoying this period of having a lot of very exciting data come out. That being said, I think a lot of the MSLs on the team haven't haven't had an issue. It has slowed down, you know, and there's certainly months out of the year where things slow down because of vacations and whatnot. But so far, we've been able to maintain a pretty good level of interactions with our KOLs. Now I'll also preface that we're in a rare disease space.
You know, that can be very different than somebody who is not in a rare disease space. You have a lot more people to see. I feel like going forward, I have I'm very cautiously optimistic that by the later half of twenty twenty two, it's gonna look more pre COVID. I tend to be more be very optimistic. That's my hope. Yeah. At least that's what I've planned for. I do feel that we're going to keep our digital tools because they've been very efficient and convenient.
I think the gold standard is still the face to face interaction. There's gonna be situations when you know, I can remember going to a city that was difficult to get to from an airplane, and, you know, it took me all day to get there. I had a 30 or 45 minute appointment, and then sometimes I had to spend the night because there wasn't a flight late enough. And so in that regard, that will be a very wonderful appointment to have on on the on Webex or Zoom. It will be a lot more efficient for me.
So I think that we're definitely gonna have some sort of hybrid mix, but the gold standard's still that face to face interaction. And I think we're just gonna have to be mindful of where people live, what they're comfortable with, what the KOLs are able to do, from their institutional restrictions. But that's my hope. You know, my hope is that late 2022, we will it will be almost like pre COVID times. Can't wait. I can't wait. I'm old school. I like to see people. I like the video thing.
I mean, it's cool. It definitely helps. But I I I know you and I talked about we were both at an actual in person conference recently and how wonderful it was just to see people. It was great. I'm a hugger, man. I like to get in there. You do. You know? I'm old school. Although, in this day and age, between COVID and 6 foot distance and, you know, all the HR rules, you can't touch anybody, you can't look at anybody, you can't you know? I'm like a dinosaur. Hey. Well, listen. This was awesome.
Any, like, last piece of advice for MSLs out there that are looking to, you know, up their performance and just do something really awesome? You know, I think it's just keep keep plugging away. You know? It's you know, we can gather as much information as we can on our KOLs. We can, you know, still try to continue to figure out what makes them tick. And, eventually, it's almost like you break through the shell and it's like, okay. I found it. You know?
I got but don't give up if it doesn't happen. And, I mean, I still have KOLs that I'll send an email to every month, and I I get no no nothing. And it's okay. You know? It happens. The vast majority will respond and we'll have fantastic opportunities, then at some point in time, I'll be able to engage that KOL at conference or or whatnot. You just never know. You never know. And then don't give up. Consistency, persistence, I'm sure it'll all come together. It does. It does.
And then you just awesome. You're the best. Thank you. This was really insightful. I learned a lot. I know everybody else out there learned a lot. So this was really great stuff. You have to come back. We'll have to think of topic 2. Love to. I would love to. Like I said, I love podcasts and I listen to yours every week when the new episode comes out. If I'm walking, I'm learning. And podcasts are great for that. And I was so thankful to find the MSL podcast.
I've learned so much from your previous listeners. So I'm happy to come back. Well, thank you, and thank you all for listening and for participating. It's been a lot of fun. Can't wait to hit that 100,000 listener mark. And so quick question though, Deanna, before I let you go, are you gonna do the high five challenge? Did you listen to that episode? I thought about that.
I was, I finished up listening that this morning, and I thought because I think you had said something about my day 3, you're gonna feel totally different. I thought, okay. I've got 3 days. I'd love to feel more energized. So I'm gonna give it a go. Do it. It works. Take the high five challenge. If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, check out episode 74. It's only 11 minutes, and I explain what the high five habit is and what the high five challenge is. So thanks again, guys.
We'll see you again soon. Deanna, you're the best. Thanks so much. Thanks, Tom. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.