Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Bernadette Mamon. She is a medical science liaison with Norellis, and she shares her best practices for being a successful medical science liaison and talks about how to develop strong KOL relationships. It's awesome. I think you guys are really gonna enjoy this. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. Check us out on Instagram and YouTube. All of our videos of our podcast go up on YouTube.
And then we do MSL Talk Live, which is on the LinkedIn Live platform, and that's the 1st Tuesday of every month typically, and that's at 1:30 PM EST. So be on the lookout for those events as well, and thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Bernadette. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. Hi. Good morning, Tom. Hi. How are you? I'm awesome. I'm awesome.
I'm excited to talk to you. This is gonna be great. And for those of you guys that I always like to tell kinda how these things come about. Bernadette, I've known Bernadette for a while, but we ran into each other in Vegas at the MSL Society meeting. And we started talking about, you know, potential ideas for a podcast. And we just we were in the conversation, I picked up on something she said, and it was like, something like, yeah, it's what I do. It's how I build relationships.
So I'm like, alright. Well, that's the title for the podcast. That's that simple. That's what we're doing. And here we are. So before we get into that, why don't you do an introduction and tell everybody who you are, where you're from, and all that good stuff? Sure. Well, welcome, everyone, and thank you so much for listening to this podcast. My name is Bernadette Ramon, and I'm a medical science liaison almost 8 years now.
I initially started this journey back in, the beginning of 2016 in January of that year. I got this opportunity and I am forever blessed because I truly found the profession. I am so excited about the wake up and just just do the job. And I think that's pretty much what everyone is driving to achieve when they are just trying to become an adult and and figure out what will be their daily work routine. And I'm just very happy to say that I'm in this role for almost 8 years now.
I started in large pharma, then I was in medium and I just recently joined a company, which is a small, and it's all like neurology throughout my career. I represent your Alice, right now. And I just would like to state, for the sake of this podcast that everything you will hear today. It's just my own personal statement and not, anything represented or stated, through my employer. So I just wanted to put the disclaimer out there just here in the beginning.
And yeah. So I'm I'm, PhD in backgrounds. I have a phd in cellular molecular biology, and you probably hear a little bit on accent. And I'm originally from Budapest, Hungary. I transitioned to the US back in 2008. I started my journey with a master's degree first in exercise science, but that led me to get a graduate research assistantship through the Plymouth Clinic. And that opened up a whole, great journey for my, educational as well as my current professional career.
So I'm happy to start, addressing some of your questions. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to jump into it because I know you have a you definitely have a depth and a wealth of experience that I'm gonna tap into right now. And you it's funny you said that, you know, you get up and you get after it every day and, you know, and work at being an adult. I'm still working at that part. I'm still trying to figure out how to be adult because half the time I feel like I'm a kid.
But, so but let's talk about I know you've been doing this a long time. You've had a lot of success. So what would you say some of and just to jump right into it. What are some of your secrets to being a successful MSL? And what advice do you have for others that are in this same journey trying to get ahead as an MSL? It's really starts how we wake up. We have to wake up and be present. It's very important to be comfortable with the uncomfortable.
Just for me starting a new life basically in a completely different country, different culture, different language. And just applying this in my day to day life is just truly, helped me to succeed in this type of profession where you just need various people, various backgrounds, and communication styles as well as situations. And you just have to be comfortable to manage as life kind of puts you through certain challenges and just be very flexible with whatever might happens.
And that's pretty much, the biggest key for a successful MSR just to be very flexible and and know that change happens constantly and just be present and just know how to best manage all these difficult challenges, which might end up being very positive. And that's pretty much my whole kinda life statement and trying to always think of the positive.
And the other thing I I also now truly think it's been very, very supportive for myself, not just for personal, but as best professional that I found a huge passion in running. And I I think I will be bringing the running scenario up a lot because it's been a great journey, and it taught me so much about myself. And it also helps me to connect with people and just be better at what I do.
Well, it's so funny because for those of you who are listening and aren't actually watching this on YouTube, right behind Bernadette's on her wall, right behind her shoulder, there's, it says 26.2 and then there's medals hanging from there. So obviously, Bernadette's an accomplished marathoner, which is amazing. And I'll tell you, it's funny, I you could have answered that question.
So the question just to go back was, you know, what are some of the secrets to your success as a top performing MSO? You could have answered that anyway, and you started with attitude and mindset. And I think that that is so, it's so true that if you don't have the right mindset coming into, not just the MSL profession, but really with any profession, you're almost setting yourself up for failure. So I love your positivity. I love your attitude.
I love the fact that you come in every day getting after it, being present. And that's the second time you mentioned how important it is to get up with the right attitude and wanna get after stuff. So let me ask you this, though. As you were developing and growing in your career, you know, what what resources did you come across that were helpful, and and what were things that you identified along the way that you wanna share with others?
Number 1 is I definitely would like to mention family support because it's key to have the background, have cheerleaders from close to you to help to get that positive mindset on a daily basis and support. And the other thing what I really would like to highlight is having a large network of individuals, either professional or just whoever helped you to to be the person you are today and and you just feel comfortable to ask advice as you, move along and just other areas.
But I also found it extremely supportive for my personal growth and development is number 1, MSR Society, the way we connected. I mean, that's another great organization for keeping the profession, growing. And I I started out as an aspiring MSL, and my journey through that particular organization was quite amazing because at the time, there were not many resources were available, and I'm talking back in 2015 about the MSR role. Now there are a lot more resources.
Thanks to the organizations such as the MSR Society. But at at that time, they just have a very basic website with, and they were the only ones when I was trying to Google who were offering communication skills training because that's key because we are, like, having a PhD background. Some of the problems and challenges that we oftentimes get lost in the data and don't have that, secret sauce to bring the data and package it in a way which resonates with everyone.
And that's really something that, you I feel like for me, especially having English as a second language that I needed support to to get that secret sauce, and they offered it. And after that, I was able to succeed with my that was my second interview because the reason I actually seek out for additional help is because I did not get a callback, at after my first trial to trying to break into the MSL, role, and that was the, presentation.
And I knew that something was missing because I didn't get a callback. And that's another, key element I would like to bring in is to be persistent and just go and never stop achieving your goals. And for me, one of the other success I can, reference is that I never been afraid to ask for help. I know for some people, it could be difficult to admit that there are area which needs to be improved.
For me, I I know that I'm not you know, there's always so much to improve upon, and it's just natural to me to ask for continuous help feedback. I'm that type of person who takes constructive feedback well and, likes to apply it. It may take a little longer to get that application going. But I'm definitely here to listen and try to gather as many constructive feedback I can get. And the society is definitely there, to do that because once I became an MSL, they also offer a mentoring program.
And at the time, I started out as a mentee, and today, I am a 2nd year mentor. It's definitely a process, which a growing process, but it's a great journey to be in and utilizing all these resources. And I mentioned MSL Society and the other organization I'm also trying to now get some additional leadership skills because I'm getting to that point that I'm, actively seeking for additional, leadership opportunities and now a member of the HBA organization as well.
And this year I got the opportunity to attend their conference. And I am very excited and looking forward to it. And just taking it again, additional, I would say podcast or learnings, offerings to still to continuously grow and and get that application going with my day to day job. It's super important. We talk about it on this podcast all the time is you have to continue to develop your skills and be a lifelong learner.
And that's it's important for just to advance your career, but to advance as a person as well. So you mentioned a lot of really good resources in there. For those of you who don't know, HBA is the Healthcare Business Women's Association. So it's a very well known organization, that helps develop women in business and provides a really good platform. You guys know about the MSL Society. Obviously, we talk about a lot on the podcast, and we support those guys that do a great job.
Bernadette is a part of the society. And, you know, obviously, there's so many other things out there as far as resources, but the key is, and and you mentioned is you have to be proactive. You actually have to make it, and you mentioned about being intentional. It has to be your intent and your goal to get better and to improve and to learn. So I wanna go back to something that you said.
You mentioned that you feel like your the presentation portion of the interview is what held you back, from not getting that one job. You also mentioned to me when we talked, about Toastmasters and how important that was for you. So did you seek out Toastmasters as a way to get better at presenting? Yes. And and again, that just came through networking.
I I didn't really I I saw Toastmasters, and it just sounds kinda you you never know what the these organizations, their names, what they really stands for. And it was a little awkward and and I couldn't imagine at the time that, relatable this organization might be for my profession. But, at my one of my journey at the point of my job, I was suggested that maybe that's something I should seek out if they do have an organization close to my home, and and they did.
And I I felt just very related in terms of how they are structured with their, meetings because they they do help with improving your communication style and not to use certain words, the uh-huh, like, ahs and and ends and buts and just just really making it more apparent that how often people get trapped in in those and especially now doing all these virtual meetings. This the way we we speak and, obviously, I need to go back and and just continue with them.
And I tonight, I'm actually joining the new club in my area because how we started talking about it, I realized that I do miss them. It was just great that they have a quick section in the beginning just to have 2 minutes, and they time you just to quickly respond to certain scenarios.
And, obviously, it's not going to be job related, but it's clearly the same thing what you can immediately apply when I I come back to my office and think about all those therapeutic areas and and our frequently asked questions and and understand how I can put those into that 2 minute quick category to to make sure I can be present and very, strategic and and succinct in my interactions with, providers I I see on a daily basis. So it definitely has that.
And then the communication piece, again, is just build you to be a better presenter, both either in a virtual or in an in person setting and and how to relate, engage with your audience. And and you have, again, people who meet the first times there. There's so many things which comes back and and helps you, to get better at at the job. What what everyone is either thriving or currently be doing in medical affairs. So I think it's a good idea to at least check it out. Right?
Maybe just look up and see if there's a Toastmasters near you that you can join or participate in and see what it's all about and take advantage of, you know, just a way or a community that's going to help you grow and develop and develop skills, especially for the position for the MSL position because you do need to be a good presenter. You need to be a good communicator. And that's if if I understand it correctly, that's really what it's all about. So check that out. Right?
And then one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, it's in the title, is, you pride yourself in developing strong relationships with your KOLs and your internal counterparts as well. So let's talk about that. I mean, so far you've mentioned a couple of things about how you look to improve the way you communicate. And, and it sounds like you you really take to heart and get after everything that you do with a lot of zeal.
So I imagine that you take a lot of pride in how you develop relationships. So let's talk about that a little bit. Yes. I, the first thing what I always like to mention, and I understand that we went through a pandemic and we are still in the after effect. Although, I do strongly suggest to try to be out and making those connections in person whenever it is possible because getting in person meetings are so different than just the Zoom.
Obviously, maintaining relationships via the virtual platform, it's it's great.
And I am definitely thankful for this opportunity to develop hybrid, settings and and have that available because most of the meetings with top k wells I can get via Zoom is already defaulted as 30 minutes, which normally when you're trying to get that meeting done and an academic institution, a hospital, those, you know, you may show up for a plan 30 minute in person meeting, but then you arrive and the physician is already, like, behind and and
tells you that, I'm so sorry, but a patient is is, is running late and I have the next one. I only got 5 minutes. So you never know. But for virtual, the way they schedule it, somehow it's been I never had, less than 30 minutes. So that's great for maintenance. But for initial building, just getting those in person opportunities are just key. And, again, like, how you build, it's a gift about attitude and just have that positive mindset.
I feel like a lot of people, utilizing mail merge instead of trying to, take the time and have personalized emails. And I understand that email is becoming challenging over time because everyone is now utilizing that as their primary, outlet for connecting. But making it more personal, I still get responses a lot faster than just sending out a standardized, introductory email. So I highly suggest to take the time.
It is an investment, but we do get office days and just utilize that to be more strategic and and have those initial outreach. And once you start the initial outreach, just making the meeting, and and have it pretty much led by the provider and not really walking in with our agenda is really trying to to be a resource for them. And I I do like to utilize some some books and just show it what helped me, to build relationships.
So, again, I attended the sessions to the MSL Society, and one of the presenter recommended one of Maxwell's book about everyone communicates, but if you connect. It's a great, book highly recommending everyone to read it. And there is a particular, section I really would like to just quote, if you don't mind. Go for it. Because, connection is is really not about me. Connecting is never about me. It's about the person with whom I'm communicating.
Similarly, when you are trying to connect with people, it's not about you. It's about them. If you want to connect with others, you have to get over yourself. You have to change the focus from inward to outward off of yourself and onto others. And the great thing is that you can do it. Anyone can. All it takes are the will to change your focus, the determination to follow through, and the acquisition of a handful of skills.
And really the primary purpose of communication, what I also have in my office, pinned up to inform, to influence, to inquire, to inspire. And those are the things, which I truly believe has been helping me to develop as well as maintain relationships. I'm a big John Maxwell fan. I actually read that book. I think it's awesome. And, I'm actually, believe it or not, a certified John Maxwell leadership consultant. So go figure it out. That's great.
Yeah. Then I'd be happy to ask some questions because I keep getting their emails about the course, and I I was wondering what it's like. Yeah. That's awesome. Their materials and their program is amazing, and, took me a while to get through it. I'm still I still, like, utilize it, the platform, and, get a lot out of it. But, you know, something you said that was interesting is how you and there was so much to unpack there. Thank you for all that great information.
But you said you in developing relationships, how important it is to get FaceTime and try to get those live meetings. Now, coincidentally, last week, I was doing I was attended this virtual conference, and I heard a stat that right now, 80 per 87% of KOLs said that they would prefer virtual engagement over live engagement. And I think the reason being, obviously, is because they've gotten used to it, and it's probably just a little easier for them.
So you mentioned using email as a creative way to, personalize and try to get their attention and try to maybe get more appointments. What other ways would you recommend people, you know, utilize in order to gain KOL access? Do you have any other creative strategies? Yes. The other thing that I, I really would have never thought of right away.
Eventually, probably, the focus may have shifted, but the pandemic was again created us to be more creative and and and just pushed us to think more outside of the box. And I brought up MSR Society, human, the HBA, and so the Health Care Business Associations. And now I am, like, it kinda triggered that all these professionals must belong to a professional association, and they do.
And so for instance, with nurse practitioners, I live in Cleveland, Ohio, and each state has their own professional organization. So Ohio has the whole Ohio Association of Advanced Practice Nurses. We are being able to talk about PAs, New York State Society of PAs. Every state has pharmacists.
They all and each of these state organization having their state, like, chapters broke it down more of the regions and counties and so you can get exposed and you will find people who are in your therapeutic area. And that was something which which was really amazing to to realize, and they they meet monthly. You can get on their, educational platform and be a presenter, provide non CME, overview of disease state or the product, whichever they request in a compliant manner.
And, the same thing with the physicians. Through my my career, I have to engage with other professionals, not just neurologists, but with, primary care, internal medicine. They also have their state organization, Ohio Academy of, like, family practitioners.
So they they all have their, professional organizations and chapters and just be a lookout and just just check them out and see if you can get on their, educational, activities and either meet in person or get on their virtual monthly calls and see if you can, be a resource to them and and get exposed to the providers that way. And maybe like a no brainer. It sounds like something that people should be doing. Like, I just think it's almost makes sense to do that as an MSO.
I know it's an extra step, and I know that everybody's so busy, but it just seems like that would make sense. Is does that encouraged by the company to do it, or is that something that you have to seek out on your own? Well, I mean, it's more I I would say, yeah. It sounds like it should be more organic, but I feel like we put a lot of effort to reach out individuals instead of trying to look through an organization and then find them that way.
Yeah. That's just kinda like going backwards or just right, getting to more of a a direct, line. Sometimes getting to a to b is not as simple. You have to go through c, d, e, and then back to b in order to, to get to your point of contact. And that was something that I never immediately thought of until I was kinda enforced to figure out different routes of Right. Outreach.
Well, since you've since you've obviously come up with a lot of different ways, to find success, you're a mentor and you've you're actually second generation mentor or second time being a mentor. And so you've been doing this a while. What mistakes are you seeing MSLs make nowadays? I think what I can bring up is number 1 is just having more emotional intelligence because we all have PhD and the farm b backgrounds.
So people know that the science is there, and a lot of times, they feel like everyone is trying to get into their appointments with high science in mind. And many times, that first meeting, it's not going to end up in in-depth scientific conversation.
That's why it's important to have those other kind of resources and just be aware of of body language, the other situations, self awareness, just to to understand that connecting is not always a simple like, you walk in with with your objective in mind, but there are so many outside environmental factors which can disrupt it.
So have that, more present versus just and this way, you always have, like, a plan b. And I feel like maybe people not as prepared for a plan b and and they freeze and and they miss out opportunities how to continue with that situation, have a follow-up appointment secured right away. Just just always have those plan b and c in mind before getting in front of, health care professional. The other way is I and I had to work on this to stay succinct and not to put way too many things in an email.
Just trying to be up and just state basic information instead of just having people because, like, we don't have all this time to to go through a chapter book. They're making sure if we can stay sustained via email as well as in our conversations that that goes a long way. And so, yeah, I mentioned not really using mail merge, be more personalized.
And and a lot of people so this is more like preparation during the meeting, but then there's also follow-up and making sure that the follow-up is in place. That I always end the meeting to make sure that there's a reason for me to come back. They have an objective for our next meeting, have an appointment already set up, and make sure that those are in place. And as well as if a question came up during our conversations, I have that addressed.
Even if I had no time to do it while I was there, do it right away when I'm back at my home, have a communication platform ready if the provider wants it via email. So I have that in place and respond in a compliant manner as it as by our companies And make sure that people not just leave the door and thinking I had my meeting. It's not gonna continue unless there is some type of continuum set in place upfront and have that applied. Yeah. Great tips.
And what about, like, digital engagement and social media? We hear so much about that now. I'm curious as to how are you utilizing the digital world? I truly believe, like, you can get so many good information out of LinkedIn. That's kinda like my primary. I try to use Twitter, but I'm not, good at it. And some physicians I think Twitter is really helpful when people are at a conference.
Because at conferences, you do get real time kind of reaction of the KOLs, other health care providers who are attending. I think that's great. But for for instance, with LinkedIn, like, you always get some different, perspective. And I am, trying to connect with someone. That's another thing I also try to do now with my engagement with providers, especially those who I already built a relationship to connect with them via LinkedIn.
Because when I follow them, I also see what they like, what they post, and it helps me to to get a better understanding what is important to them. And I find out about so many local conferences that way, which maybe won't be triggered right away.
So there are so many great opportunities now using LinkedIn for and if there's a specific project, like now, I'm trying to learn more about diversity and just realizing all these different, departments, how they exist in certain hospital settings and just helping with my my project to to move along that way and just realizing, and having that platform informing me what is current. I think they are they are really helpful. And sometimes you can even use them as an outreach.
I mean, sometimes there are no emails or the providers you are trying to get in touch with. I don't pay for LinkedIn. I know some people may get reimbursed to have that another level where you can immediately send messages to to people. For me, I need them to accept, and I can only put a short, brief, outreach message in there.
And sometimes it works, sometimes it's not something that people respond to, but at least it's an opportunity and option to not to let it go when when you really need to get in touch with, with the KOL. Yeah. I think LinkedIn is a no brainer. You guys know I'm big on LinkedIn, and I just think it's a no brainer. I think it's it's right now, it's the de facto business community. That's where everybody kinda winds up, and it's the Facebook for for business.
And it's actually kinda turning into Facebook a little bit. It's it's some of the stuff that people post. It's getting a little more personalized, which, it is what it is. But I think as a platform, it it's so easy to not just engage, but to listen. Meaning, you if you just follow your KOLs and see what it is that their interests are, what are they posting on, what's current to them that gives you information that'll arm you.
So the next time you're sitting in front of them, you know what to talk about. So it's not just about, you know, having to engage per se, but it's it's the important thing is to do your research, and to be a good social listener so you can see what's going on out there. I'm a big believer that you should upgrade your LinkedIn to a premium, subscription. It's not that expensive. And it's an investment. It's an investment in your career, not just now, but in the future.
I highly recommend you build up your LinkedIn connections on a weekly basis. Send out invites regularly, if not daily, definitely weekly. And then at some point in time, if you're looking for a job and you have a job search, if you don't have that premium subscription, you're gonna wind up being at a disadvantage. Because of, as you said, Bernadette, like that messaging feature or not having InMails. So you only get that when you when you sign up for the premium.
So that's just my public service announcement and advice for those that are out there because I'm a big fan. So last question. What other advice do you have for the MSL community that, you know, do you think something that they should be aware of? Something that's working for you or just kinda last tips of, you know, an advice? Yes. Networking. You just, you know, hit on with LinkedIn. Just don't stop utilizing networking, whenever the opportunity comes up.
And it's either requires an upgrade, but it still works with the free, version to to send, connection inquiries and just try to connect with people and the medical affairs, profession. And so now just thinking about aspiring MSLs there are so much more information available than back in the days when I was trying to apply, but still, there are so many acronyms are used in a job description.
So having someone who's currently in this role and just help, again, guide through those acronyms and make it more relatable. Also, seek out societies. Like, I'm only familiar with the medical, you know, affairs society, but there's also, additional, medical affairs, organizations out there which may offer similar, resources. So just make sure that, you know, you're open.
And just having time and, a recruiter, just not to forget about our, key representatives of connecting us with the company where, we find our dreams to thrive. And and just having what you're doing is just truly amazing, and it has so many resources. And I know you and your team are also extremely open to give personal advices and not just, what is on recordings already. But, again, it's just just happens with in person, connections. Now they met at the conference.
I've been going there for 5 years now, and it's just always nice to nurture these relationships even if just for a day or 2 people can make these times. It just goes a long way. And, again, just going back to my whole running theme that, you know, running kind of taught me that I'm capable of doing so much more than I ever imagined. And just kinda that no great achievement is possible without persistent work. But definitely be diligent and persistent and, you know, anything can happen.
Awesome advice. I love that. And I think it's, there are just so much great stuff there. And, you know, it you know, it's funny. I'm I I love to run. I'm not like a huge runner like you, But I do love to run. I ran this morning and actually listened to one of my podcasts this morning. I had to do it for academic purposes. But, anyway, I think that exercise running, getting doing something to clear your head, I think it's more mental than it is physical.
It's just so important to your career, not just the MSO career, but any career. That's just, you know, a piece of advice. But you mentioned networking, I think that it's mandatory. There are certain things that are kind of optional. I think it's mandatory to be a lifelong networker to help establish your career and help position yourself, not just now, but for the future. I think it's just really important.
And I think that if you're not doing it, it's something that you should try to incorporate into your either weekly or monthly routine and schedule. If you could do it live, great. If not, there's so many virtual platforms. You know, you talk about the MSL Society, you can network through the MSL Society, even online, even on their platform. They have a great way to engage with others on the platform. MAPS is the Medical Affairs Professional Society is another group that's really, really great.
That's out there doing the similar type of work and there, it's a great platform for engaging with folks. So I wanna encourage you guys to do it. I appreciate the community that we've established here. The MSL Talk Podcast has been a tremendous community. We're up to almost 200,000 listeners in 60 different countries, And it's become a place where people have connected with so many of our guests and and speakers.
And, so I appreciate the community that we've built, and I think it's important to reach out to folks and network and be present, as you said, Bernadette. So thank you. So last one last 10 second piece of advice. What is it? Well, I just well, let me just dial back for one quick comment just to get about I was kidding.
Just with regard to platform because I'm we only talked about LinkedIn and Bitter, but I also wanted to add because, you know, with running, you never know the settings which might connect you with professionals. I do have top KOLs who am I connected to Strava, which is more of a running app. And it's interesting, but many times, finding that common ground, that's again a great basis for building long lasting relationships. And I do have connected with, KOLs through running.
And, societies, like, conferences, but I attend, just one example, the academy, the a n American Academy of Neurology Conference. They do have annual 5 k races to benefit brain research. And so those races, I made numerous connections with KOS from, like, Mayo Clinic. Like, there there's just a a nice list which are known to be hard access institutions. But because we just showed up to run a 5 k race, now we do have something to to talk about. So just just another interesting Yes.
Tips what people might won't think of. So that's kinda like my little 10 second quick tip. I love it. No. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. That's a new one too. That's totally novel. I haven't heard that before. So Mhmm. That's a good one. Bernadette, you're awesome. I'm so glad you came out and did this with me today, early on a Monday morning. I appreciate you. And, and I appreciate you guys for listening. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.
Alrighty. Take care. Talk soon. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.