Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Bobby Fasen, and he is executive director of medical affairs at Paratek Pharmaceuticals. And we talk about how to find success after training for MSLs. Awesome conversation. There's really some groundbreaking stuff in this episode. I think you guys are really gonna love it. Don't forget to connect with me and follow on LinkedIn and check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Typically, sometimes those dates change. But thank you as always for joining us and appreciate all your support. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Bobby. Welcome back to the show. How you doing? Hey, Tom. Good to see you again. Yeah, man. I'm excited. So, guys, you may remember Bobby was on this show, previously, and, I said, we have to have you back on, and here we are.
But we have to give a shout out to Paul Ward because our buddy, Paul Ward, who's who's a frequent guest on this show, who's amazing, the best, he came up with this idea. I'm not gonna ruin it right now. I'll let Bobby tell the story, but Bobby Axel I mean, Paul actually told me this story which inspired this episode. But before we get into that, Bobby, why don't you do an intro, tell everybody who you are, and all that good stuff.
Even though you've already been on here, people probably know, but let's, let's do this as we normally do. Thank you, Tom. So hi, everyone. Bobby Fason. I'm actually the executive director of Field Medical for Paratek Pharmaceuticals, Pharm d by Education, and I've been in the pharmaceutical industry little over 20 years, a number of different companies. And, since you mentioned Paul Ward, him and I have worked together off and on a number of companies, and, great guy as you said.
So, glad to be back on the show and, looking forward to sharing some of my learnings along the way. Well, we're gonna jump into it, because I just love this story. So why don't you tell everybody the the story that inspired this episode? And you you tell it however you want as you remember it, and, and then we'll kinda take it from there. Will do. Will do, Tom. So, so everyone, like many of you, I came from a clinical practice into the pharmaceutical industry.
So I was a clinical pharmacist for a number of years, clinical pharmacy coordinator, and, was hired by AstraZeneca as an MSL. And at the time, I really didn't even know what an MSL was, but I was looking forward to just a career change and, the opportunities that that, that come with it. So at that time, you go into headquarters and you go through orientation. And it's the whole week. You learn about your benefits, about the organization, and, you know, you get really excited about the company.
And then, you know, the last day, you know, the the trainer said, okay. And you're gonna be sent the box of books and you're gonna be getting all this literature and data and you're just gonna, you know, go from there. And I, you know, I sat there and thought about it a little bit. And and here was the story that really sparked this, interview was that I raised my hand and I said, alright. So this is great. Learned a lot. What do I do on Monday?
And, the trainer, great lady, she's she said, well, nobody's ever asked that because you gotta understand, I'm I'm new to pharmaceutical industry. I'm coming in. I'm all excited. I learned about my benefits. I learned about the company, but I still had no idea what it was that I was supposed to do. So that's that's really the the the genesis of the story. And and as I told it to Paul, you know, he he he's like, oh my gosh.
That that was that was phenomenal because, you know, many of us have the same thing. We hire a bunch of MSLs. We we think that we're training them. We give them all the content, but we don't necessarily spend enough time teaching them about the role. What is it about the job that, you know, pharmaceutical companies invest a a lot of money and resources to having a field medical team? But what what do they get? What's the what's the return on investment?
I think that I I think that that's such an amazing story, and it's so true. And it it applies to so many different things. Like, you I'm big in the in in personal development and personal growth, and you go to webinars, you go to seminars, you go to conferences, and you get all of this content. And then it's like, okay. Well, how do I apply it? What do I do with it? It's almost the same concept.
I think, though, when when you're talking about a career, a new career move, whether you're a new MSL or or you're at a new job as an MSL, the question always becomes, okay. Well, what do I do with this stuff? How do I become successful? And one of the most popular episodes of this podcast is how to develop a 30, 60, 90 day plan. Because it does give you a little bit more of a a structure and a a road map on what you should be doing, maybe your 1st week, know, your 2nd week, whatever.
So, again, this is no knock on whoever the trainers are or whatever. I think that they're so focused on, hey. We wanna make sure that we put as much into it as we possibly can, but then that leaves people with, I think, probably overwhelmed. So let's take it from there. So in your experience, when there is the content training piece, what should MSLs expect? How can they find success in their territory?
What's your advice to them on taking the learnings, taking what is provided for them, and using it for their success? Yeah. You know, and so much is focused on the content. And and by all means, you have to know the content. I mean, that's that's that's priority 1. But the job, the role is so much bigger than just understanding the content. It's really now about developing relationships. It's around communicating the science.
I mean, this is this is a job where you have to navigate an organization, an institution, a hospital, a community practice. You have to go through the gatekeeper and you have to, get in it, you know, get an opportunity or a meeting. And then you've got to really have enough knowledge to have an introductory statement.
And this person that's meeting you for the first time, this health care provider, this KOL, they're they're assessing whether they're gonna see you again or not in that first few minutes. So, you you know, there was a a radio talk show, sports guy, Jim Rohn. He used to say, you know, I had a show that said, have a take and don't suck. And that's kind of the same approach here.
You you've gotta go in and you've gotta make a statement, that right away, you're gonna determine, is this somebody I'm gonna see and this is somebody that I bring value to me as a healthcare provider? And that that's what you're up against. So, it's not having all this data in your mind and then thinking you're just gonna go in and then talk all this data. You're really gonna have to probably spend more time understanding about their practice. What are their issues? What are their challenges?
Where do they see your product fit into their treatment decisions? What are the hurdles that you're gonna have to address to see if they are gonna consider using your product? There's a lot to that conversation that goes well beyond the the scientific knowledge and data. And that's not content training. That's that's soft skill training. That's interpersonal, you know, communications and relationship building training.
So let me ask you, do you feel like there's enough emphasis put on that piece of it in the onboarding and training programs that MSLs get? You know what? I I can tell you from from our end and some of my experience, absolutely not. I mean, that's that really is the the genesis for this conversation is that the softer skills oftentimes now outweigh the clinical skills. Because if you can't have if you can't get to that meeting, then it doesn't really matter how much information you have.
And if you can be the smartest person, you know, in the room, but if you can't communicate that, it it's a it's a loss. It's it's really something that the soft skills I mean, even taking a step back, just getting that in just getting that appointment, you know, so much emphasis needs to be placed on writing that appropriate email. And the wording matters, having a catchy phrase in your title and how that email is actually constructed. And and how do you describe yourself?
How do you at the point that the health care provider why do you wanna meet with them? And what's in it for them? I mean, these are things that are important. They get hundreds of emails a day. What's gonna make your email stand out so that you're gonna actually get that appointment? That's step 1. Right? And then step 2 is when you do have that appointment, you know, you're gonna have to make an impact. And that's that's that's a that's a lot more than just knowing all the data.
Well, let's talk about that a little bit more because I feel like this is a common theme. And and so my next obvious question is where would people go to develop that muscle to become better equipped and develop those soft skills that they need to be successful? I know that we've had a bunch of episodes on this podcast, so I will say that that there are episodes dedicated just to that. But aside from that, are there books? Is it mentorship? Is it, internally, externally?
What do you what what advice do you have for people that know they need to develop in that area? You know, Tom, I I think as as leaders of, MSLs, I I think we can definitely look at our team and say, this person does it phenomenally. This person does phenomenally. Those people, you know, you mentioned mentorship. To me, it's see 1, do 1, teach 1. There is significant value to allowing the opportunity for a new hire to see what that interaction looks like, to go through that process.
How do they prepare, you know, for that interaction? What steps do they employ in, you know and I've really spoken to those MSLs that do it really well. And the preparation that they they the time they put in to that interaction, is what separates great from good. You know, you can you can go in thinking, alright. I'm just gonna go in and educate doctor Caravella, on the science.
And you go in there and you can talk science and feel that, man, I just nailed that, and not had any impact at all on that interaction. But those that prepare, those that can go in and have a 2 to 3 minute introduction, maybe have some content, but really focus more on learning and understanding the health care provider and what makes him or her, you know, think and change behavior and determine what medication they're gonna use for these patients. That's a skill that takes practice.
Now, we use a lot of technology and then iPads, many MSOs use iPad. If you don't sit home and practice how you're gonna transition from slide to slide without breaking eye contact, because as soon as you start fumbling with the iPad, as soon as you lose eye contact, you've lost their attention. And that conversation goes right to the time that's been allotted, and they thank you very much for coming, and you will probably never get another appointment. Yeah. Wow. There's so much to unpack there.
First of all, thank you for calling me doctor Caravella. That's nice ring to it. On that. The least qualified guy in the room. But, anyway, I like that. The that's it's amazing that you say that because I think that one of the big differentiators in your your top MSLs versus people that may be in the middle or or on on the bottom, is the amount of time that they put into the preparation piece. I think that that gets lost. And you used the word practice. You know?
I do you think enough MSLs are actually practicing and maybe role playing or or practicing their presentations and really putting in the prequal planning that's required to be a top performer. Do you think that that's probably one of the biggest things that's missing? You know what? I I think so, Tom. The ones that do it really well are the ones that put the time in.
And you can use a lot of the sports analogies, You know, the ones that differentiate great from good are the ones that put the time in on the court. It's the same in any any role or any function. I mean, you've got to prepare and you've got to put the time in, and you've got to be mentally focused. I mean, even when you're getting ready to give a presentation, you can focus on what it is you're going to say and know your slides, you know, 1 by 1.
But to really make that presentation come alive, how are you gonna transition? What's what, things are you gonna incorporate so that you're just not reading the slides? That's the difference between a good presentation and a great presentation that people go, wow, that was great. You know, it's the same it's the same thing. And, you know what? If there's if there's a message, that I'm trying to convey is you've got to prepare. You've got to prepare mentally. You've got to prepare physically.
And that gets into, you know, getting there on time, getting there early, not rushing in last minute because then your mind is not focused. And having the time to say, hey, What is it that I'm trying to get out of this interaction? You know, what what am I 2 or 3 points that I wanna emphasize? And what do I wanna learn as a result of this interaction? So there there's no substitution for preparation.
Yeah. And, you know, this is as as you're talking on, like, this we're talking about this needs to be a habit. The these are these are habits. The top producers make it a habit to do this stuff. They're not just doing it once. They're not doing it right after training. They're not doing it when they're new. They're doing it all the time. It becomes a habitual part of their career, and it's become second nature to them.
They factor in the amount of time that they need to do the reps, to do the practice, to do the preparation, to to do the prequal plan. Let's shift gears for a second because I'm curious if if your advice is different for newer MSLs as opposed to experienced MSLs. So when it comes to this, this this training and skill development piece, should the approach be different if you're newer versus someone with more experienced?
You know, I would say no. I think the approach needs to be the same, and I'll tell you why. I mean, I've had the the the distinct pleasure of working with a lot of very experienced MSLs over my career. And like most things, you get very complacent, and you go through the motions, sometimes because, you know, you've been doing it for so long. But there are those that really try to change it up. Hey. You know, I'd love for you, Tom, to come ride with me and, you know, just give me some advice.
And this is this is really where I get excited because I get to sit back and watch the interaction unfold. Because when you're in the interaction, it's hard to start thinking about visual cues and body language and, you know, how do I tee off a topic and how do I transition it into a discussion that I really wanna have. All of those soft skills, you know, are in the back of your mind, but you're trying to focus on the content. You're trying to really navigate the conversation.
And I get to sit back and watch it unfold. And, the ones that are very experienced, ask for that information. Hey, give me some thoughts. Just observe. Tell me what you picked up on. I'm having some challenges with this interaction or this particular KOL. Oftentimes, it's something in the interaction that's that's probably not resonating, at the time. And that's why the relationship necessarily isn't progressing. You'd be surprised.
It could be just a soft little a lot of umms or, losing visual contact or just being all over the board with your conversation and not having a point, to anything. And then, you kinda leave a little confusing. And and just being able to see that, you know, you you might not pick that up when you're just doing a 1 on 1. Yeah. Well, when you're on the field and you're in the game, you don't see it the same way as if you if you were on the sidelines.
You know, the old expression, you're too close to the forest to see the trees. That's why it's so important to get outside opinion so that you can learn and pick up on the nuances that you just can't see. You every you know, how many times you you, you know, you do a ride along and someone's like, wow. That went great, didn't it? You're like, what? Yeah. Right. Right? I got my points across. Yeah. That's a name.
So we hear all the time the the the term, you know, be the CEO of your territory or, you know, run your territory like it's your own business. So let's pretend for a second that MSL get out of training and they're setting up shop. Right? They're setting up their their territory, or they're starting they're starting their own their own franchise. What do what do you feel they need to know?
What skills and and what tools and what types of things do they need to set up shop to get their franchise off the ground and really truly be set up for success. Yeah. So, you know, the advantages, today that we didn't have years ago was there's so many different tools. I mean, you know, for example, you can take, like, VivaLink Key People, and you can really identify who your KOLs are within your territory.
And you can have at your fingertips so much data, recent publications, you know, meetings and symposia that they're gonna be presenting at. So you can really pull all this information to help you with your pre call plan. So identifying who these people are very easily and identifying what it is you're gonna go in there and talk about. I mean, there's there's no greater, opportunities than to highlight somebody's recent publication in that interaction.
I mean, it shows a lot of, you know, interest in forward thinking on your part. And KOLs pick up on that. When you they love to talk about their work. And, as there's that's a great springboard. I mean, use this. Use these tools that are available, to identify who these people are and what that initial conversation is. And then start thinking about in a broader context, where are you gonna take that relationship? Why are you meeting with this person?
You know, that that sometimes, you know, MSLs like to be told, well, tell me who I'm supposed to meet with. Well, some sometimes it's better that you determine. Like you said, it's it's your business. You determine who these people are that you wanna meet with. But when you're thinking about that, thinking about why you wanna meet with them and where do you wanna take that conversation, that relationship? I mean, that that's goes well beyond just educating KOLs. Right?
Well, there's ownership there, and I think that's the critical piece is and I'm sure it's a little probably easier for an an experienced MSL to do this versus someone that's new. That's like, alright. Well, wait. I'm new. I gotta kinda figure out how this works and, but at some point, the people that true I think that the MSLs that truly take ownership, and work their territory like they are CEO if you're a CEO, you're the boss. You're the boss, and you're responsible for everything.
You're taking ownership of everything, and that's how you ultimately will determine the course of your own success. So maybe there is that, you know, you have to crawl before you walk sort of thing. You get your feet under you. But at some point in time, taking ownership, I think is a critical element. Do you agree with that? I I no. I I I wholeheartedly agree with that. You know, it's something as well. You mentioned the difference between a a new MSL and a seasoned MSL.
You know, in in coming and going to different companies, I've interacted with very experienced MSLs that have been calling on the same KOLs for a number of years. And, you know, one of the biggest challenges that I oftentimes pose is that, are these really the right people?
If you've been calling on this person for all these years and it hasn't generated an outcome or a highlight or something that you could say, this is as a result of my interactions over time, then I'm gonna challenge you to say, is that really the right person to be calling on? Is there someone else? You know, because I talked earlier about complacency. I mean, yeah, maybe that's somebody that you can interact with because you have open access.
But if you're really thinking about the outcome that I'm trying to achieve, maybe then that is not the person that you should be engaging. And then, you know, that's sometimes, the experienced MSLs get caught into that metric mindset, where they're just trying to keep their number of interactions up or whatever. Where the newer MSL is eyes wide open.
They're just they're just going everywhere a 100 miles a minute trying to, you know, talk to as many people as they can, and they're really just trying to figure it out. But that energy that they are putting in is is is having a greater impact than the one that's maybe got the established relationships, but really lost their their mindset around what it is they're trying to achieve. Yeah. I got you. I think that's great advice.
You know, it makes me think of, you know, what what words of caution and warning might you have? As we look at this topic and you have people out there that are eager to develop their territory and take the learnings that they've, you know, that they've just gotten whether it's from training or whatever it might be. What words of question do you have? You know, I talked about the the the the newer MSL that's, you know, going a 100 miles a minute.
You know, sometimes you've gone so far or so fast that you lost your lost sight of what it what your focus is.
So I guess my advice to that caution is to to remain focused, you know, focus one institution at a time because it takes a lot of time and effort to understand the institution, how they operate, what makes them a priority institution over another institution, who those key decision makers are within an institution, who are those key influencers, and how do you how do you navigate that institution to actually meet those people?
And sometimes you can't necessarily meet the the head of the department. So you've got to start with maybe there's a fellow. Maybe there's a, you know, an attending that's trying to build their relationship within the organization. Sometimes you gotta start small and work your way up. And that's that's kind of my my advice, you know, focus. Focus. Build build some confidence there before you move on to the next institution. That's good advice.
Yeah. I think it's great advice, especially since a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast are are, either aspiring in themselves, newer in themselves, or even experienced in themselves. They're like, hey, man. I I need to I I need to learn. I need to to sharpen the ax a little bit better. So let me listen to some of these episodes that that have to do with, developing and growing.
So I think that a lot of times losing sight of of what the the strategic goals are and what your individual goals are and just going through the motions and maybe trying to get too much done without with taking your eye off the ball, I think is really good advice. And one of the things I always like to learn from different guests on the show is the things are moving so fast and things are evolving.
So with all that's going on right now in medical affairs, what do you think is most important for MSLs to do to learn, to develop in order to stand out? Now I know we talked about the preparation piece. We talked about a lot of stuff, but is there anything else that you feel pertains to where we are at this point? It's it's mid 2023. We have the second half of the year ahead of us. You know, what what do what do MSLs need to do to really make an impact? Yeah. You know what?
To me, having a much broader mindset, that it's not all about the science. And I know there's gonna be a number of MSLs that go, Oh, my God. Here we go again. These healthcare providers are also business minded. There's a number of factors that are in their mind when determining what a patient's gonna receive as part of their therapy.
And only part of that is the data or the science specific to their disease or indication, formularies, insurance coverage, tolerability, you know, long term efficacy, all these things that now, you know, really speak to having a much broader, knowledge base than just just the science. And we talked about the softer skills, right, about the interaction and about navigating the discussion, but really getting into the mindset of that healthcare provider. What are they concerned about?
What keeps them up at night? You know, the the political changes, how how they're getting reimbursed, for seeing these patients and treating these patients, you know, spending some time understanding their world, I think, is is another area, that you've just got to be mindful of. You know, I oftentimes, when I go to major meetings and symposia, I don't necessarily go and sit and listen to the new data releases.
I like to listen to the government affairs, what's happening at Capitol Hill, that's gonna impact how these physicians practice medicine. And you'll notice that those sessions are oftentimes greater attended than the keynotes for a new data release. So if you just sit back and watch, you know, follow where the health care providers go at these major meetings and what what sessions they attend, that gives you a lot of insight into, what you need to incorporate into your conversation.
So No. That motherhood. I gotta stop you. I don't mean to interrupt, but no one's ever said that on this show before. You know, follow that's that is so novel. I have to point that out. No one's ever said that on this show. Is follow where the health care providers are going. Where obviously, we've talked about how important it is to understand the interest of and know what makes your KOLs tick. There's a whole episode on that, but also understanding the needs of your KOLs.
But to to actually see what it is that they're most interested in, what what you know, when it's a conference, where are they going? What are they learning about? What's important to them? We talk about how important the patient is. This takes it to a whole another level in really understanding what is is of most critical importance to that KOL at this time. That's that's actually really insightful. Thank you. Well, I that's why I have keep keep having you come back, Bobby.
Yeah. I I have a lot of ideas, Tom. Poor guy interrupted him mid sentence, but I had to interrupt the program just to point that out. Mhmm. What what you know what? Again, I I don't wanna ask keep asking the same questions over and over because it's just it it's but there's so much going on right now, Omnichannel and and AI, you know, all this stuff. I'm curious, where do you see things going? Where do you see the what's the future of the MSO look like? And I'm not asking the same question.
I mean, what do MSOs need to be successful in the future? I just I'm curious. Where are you seeing things going? Because it really is there's such a it's a moving target right now, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. You know, if there's if there's learning, and there's a number of learnings associated with COVID and how that impacted what we do every day, it it really, for the most part, accelerated, AI and, omnichannel.
I mean, we were already thinking along those lines and, you know, the COVID kind of accelerated the process. But, you know, from from my standpoint, very simply is understanding how your KOLs wanna be engaged. Yep. And the time that they wanna be engaged. And you you may find that it's not a Monday through Friday, 8 to 5, that there's there's evenings, there's early mornings that I know a number of KOLs that they get to the office early in the morning.
And if you wanna if you wanna meet with them, you know, 6:30 at Starbucks in the in the hospital lobby is is where you're gonna see these people. But, you know, I I see really understanding the mode of interaction that these head of KOLs prefer and then the time, time and date that they wanna be preferred. And really mapping that out, having that as part of their profile. This person prefers email. This person prefers Zoom or WhatsApp or, you know, a number of other social media platforms.
I see that happening more frequently than just the traditional face to face interaction. You know, I really, I really think time is that is the is the commodity here. And so so few KOLs have so little time that they've gotta maximize the time that they're allowing for that interaction. So you can already think it's gonna be on their terms. What do they need out of the interaction? So having that open communication where they can drop you a note and you can, like, alright, Skype.
You know, you got time now? I can go over this real quick. I I see that happening more than the traditional face to face interactions. Awesome, man. That's great stuff. Let's leave it there because I just think that that's an amazing way to, to cap this whole they're such great advice. I mean, I don't I don't I wish I can go back and summarize this whole thing, which I probably will do when when I when I post the announcement. But, yeah, you're the best, man.
That's why I have to keep coming back. I appreciate you. Thanks again, Paul Ward, for making this happen. I love this story. I couldn't wait to share it. And, again, we're gonna have to do part 3. There you go. I'm looking forward to it, Tom. Thank you again for the opportunity. Thanks, Bobby. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. See you next time. Alright. Take care, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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