Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Bruno Larval. He's the CEO and founder of Larval. And we talk about virtual reality and medical affairs in the metaverse. Really interesting conversation. I didn't know anything about this topic, so I learned a lot. I think you guys will too. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. Check us out on YouTube and MSL talk live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST, and that's on LinkedIn live. So thanks for joining us.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Bruno. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me, my friend. Yes. Thank you, Tom. Great to be here. I'm excited. I guys, I know Bruno for a long time. We travel in the same circuits, and you guys are in for a treat. He's he's awesome, and, love his story. Love his company. Love what they do.
I'm not gonna say anymore because I want him to be able to to to do all of the, give you all the finer details. So let's Bruno, let's start with an introduction. Why don't you tell everybody who you are and where you're from? Yeah. Absolutely. And, we might actually talk more about how we do things more than precisely our product at level, but I still have, I think, a small, infomercial in a sense. So we are we are SaaS company.
We provide solutions to the health care, especially the pharma industry, in particular, in in medical affairs. So our solutions are along the lines of conference planning, and so not not as a service, not as a as a consulting firm, but really as a as a software platform and and QL tracking. So that's that's our product. That's, that's our engagement in the medical affairs field working with MSL and MSL teams. So it's a great tie in.
And as you guys know, when we do these podcasts, it's we don't do this as a promotional thing. Bruno is gonna give you a download on stuff you guys probably don't even know about. But that being said, Larval is a sponsor for today's episode, and I am really pleased to announce that. And if you're not familiar, the company was founded in 2004.
So they've been in business for a long time, and they combine the best of artificial and human intelligence, to deliver expertly curated and personalized data solutions, as Bruno said, to medical affairs, competitive intelligence, commercial r and d teams. So if you wanna try to find more information, very simple, go to larval.com. Check these guys out. So let's get into it, Bruno.
We're gonna talk about virtual reality, and the metaverse and how that fits into pharma, specifically with medical affairs and MSL. So I'm I'm a novice here. I'm gonna go right from the beginning and ask the most simple question. Would love for you to explain what is the metaverse for those of us that really aren't that familiar? Yes. And, of course, one of the most hyped, topic of the last, 12 months, perhaps. Although it went through a lot of hype.
And then if everybody's making fun of it as well, and and some challenges, and and some, and and in a sense, one of the signs sometimes of something is going to be very big is how easy it is to make fun of it when it starts. That was a case for personal computers, for video games, for many, many things for the internet. The internet. Yeah. So in a sense, the more something like, looks like a game, something not serious at the beginning, that's how these big revolutionary wave comes.
So I'm obviously a little bit of a big believer, in in the metaverse. So what what is a metaverse? Well, you can think about it as a place, a digital place and a digital identity. So here we are meeting on Zoom, so and I can see you on Zoom. And of course, a podcast is recorded that is going to be that is gonna be distributed in various way all over the world. I understand you. You're in 90 countries, and that's really amazing, by the way. Really, really special.
The metaverse is like this, like a digital communication, except we're in the same place. We feel, that we're in the same place. So we're really, in a virtual environment. I'm in your office, or you're in my office, or we're both on the beach, for example. Mhmm. So it's a way to go beyond the screen, and for us to be in sharing the same place.
And what I what I like to to say I mean, there are many definitions of the the metaverse, but, for me, the definition of the metaverse is that, humans, to feel connected, have to be in the same place. Mhmm. This is why we spend so so much effort to fly to, New Orleans for a conference, you and I. I mean, meet our our customers and the MSLs in the field and the KOS and each other.
We spend so much effort to move to move our bodies to be in the same place because, we are we feel connected and we feel trust with people that are sharing the same place. So the the metaverse is a way to recreate that, the sense of proximity, the sense of presence, engagement, and empathy, digitally. It's it's it's the the spatial computer in a sense. The the Internet of, of of presence. And and how that's what I thought. So I I'm I'm I'm proud of the fact that I at least knew that much.
But how does some how does one access the metaverse? Yep. So, I'm gonna show you something. Sure. So this is my my headset. So every day, as I'm getting ready to meet with my colleagues at Lavel, I put this headset on, and for about 5 hours a day, I meet with my team. And now right now, I see an amazing landscape in front of me, but I could shift it to various offices. We have about 15 different offices. I can sit around a, I can sit around a conference table and meet with everybody.
So first, you have to, to get a headset. The Quest 2 is really the standard one. This is the most advanced Quest Pro. And through that headset, you can really meet with with people, with your customers, with your employees, with your friends, with your colleagues. Now, you could also access the metaverse without a headset. You can actually access it directly from the screen of your computer, that's also possible, but it doesn't give you the sense of being immersed into the same place.
And I would argue again that in order to create memories, and we in the business will create memories in our life and in our businesses, right? That's all we do. We create memories. To create memories, I would argue you need a shared space. Right. Shared time is not enough. A screen is not enough. You need to share space, and that's what the metaverse I've given to our company at least. Right. So you and for those of you that were listening, Bruno put his headset on.
For those of you watching on YouTube, you'll see it. So you need a virtual reality headset. You mentioned the Quest 2. You access the metaverse. You can meet your clients. Your team, you had mentioned that you spend a lot of time meeting your team in the metaverse. And so it creates an intimate experience in this place where you all get together. So before I get into how that what the application is for MSLs and medical affairs, why is this important, and where do you think this is going?
And I know what you're gonna say because I know you. But I'm I wanna hear your opinion on on, really, what the magnitude of this is. And maybe one way to answer your question is to tell you how it all started. And it all started because at Laval, we have a lot of data, notably oncology data, and we wanted to apply artificial intelligence and data visualization to that data. And we worked with a group out of Caltech called VirtualElytics, and they have these 3 d ways of representing data.
So you could navigate in 3 d, you put a headset on, and you can navigate the cancer data, and use different approaches to find patterns in the white noise of the data. Something really incredible with extremely smart people. It didn't work. We couldn't find patterns yet. We think we will, but so far we did not.
But what we found when we did that experiment is that as a as a company that always has been in our history remote, we found that when we put the headset on, something different is happening in terms of our interactions. So we are 150 people. We've been in business 18 years, and from the beginning, way before the pandemic, we've been completely remote. And so I'm alone in my office in San Francisco. I've got a small office on Mission Street, and I'm by myself.
My VP of Operations and I worked together for 14 years now. We never met in person a single time. So for us, it was nearly a religion to say we don't need physical proximity. And then I realized when we put the headset on that we've been missing something. We've been missing being the moment with someone, not multitasking. Because if you're in the metaverse, if you have a headset on, you cannot check your phone. You cannot be distracted by things around you.
I'm all for multitasking, as I think you know. I tell my colleague, never do 2 things at the same time, minimum 3. So I'm all for multitasking. But sometimes, when you try to build relationship with your colleagues, always your customers, being in the moment is very important. If you've got a headset on, Tom, you're in the moment. You have a choice. You're in the moment. And when you are in the moment, it's you create an avatar of you? Is that how it works?
So, the the the topic of avatar is fascinating because so many companies are building different technologies to allow you to create an avatar of yourself. And so I experimented with a lot of avatars. Some of these look like a cartoon character. And actually, I had a comment on Glassdoor one day saying that someone got interviewed by a cartoon character, and she didn't get the job. So she was upset that she got interviewed by a a cartoon character and didn't get the job.
Because for 1 year, I ran my business completely, as a cartoon character, as an avatar. And it was challenging because, first, well, these avatars didn't have legs initially. And now they have legs. And, one of the, professor that is following me, a psychologist actually, was concerned about body image because he thought, well, that's not too good to be around without a full body. That cannot be too good for your psyche. He still didn't put the plug in the experiment.
So that was still okay by him. But the thing about Avatar is the following. Is that you could have too much reality or not enough. And they're still trying to find the right balance. When they scan your face, you look like a zombie. It's more realistic, but it's not good enough, so you look like a zombie. Most of us, including myself, we don't look good when it's realistic avatars. When it's a cartoon character, it looks better but you're a cartoon character.
And so, it's what I don't know if you heard the term the valet of the uncanny. Yeah. It's like too much reality or not enough, and there's something off that is disturbing in some ways. And quite often, when you move to the main metaverse, you experience that valley of uncanny with your avatar. I really recommend everybody, whether they have a headset or not, to go to one of the metaverses, there are several of them, and experience this. Because I think, of course, it's going to be the future.
Well, yeah. Before, again, before we get into the medical affairs conversation, so if I want to go to one of the metaverses, what do you recommend? Like, how where do I go? Okay. So there are a number first, some people it's like there's there's God and there's the God. Which God are we talking about? It's the same thing with the metaverse. We say the metaverse, but there's not a metaverse. There are multiple metaverses.
Now, of course, the main ones are the ones that Facebook is building, so Meta. And so, if you go to, if you go to Meta Quest, you can find a number of them. They they have 2 or 3 main ones. One is called Venue. The other one is called Workroom. For business, we mostly use Workroom. Okay. And because it's very professional, it's a way to meet and talk about business. And then you've got another one called Spatial, which is one we use as well, which is a very beautiful, a great creative company.
And there's one from Microsoft called the AltspaceVR. So if you search, you can find 3 or 4 metaverse. You could go there without a headset and already experience it. But I would recommend people to still get a headset because then they really understand what it is by immersing themselves. And also, they can play games, they can do fitness. There's a lot of things they can do beyond, hanging out, meeting people, and so on. Okay. So that leads to my next question.
So what are MSLs doing in the metaverse? What are medical affairs departments doing in the metaverse? Why is that relevant to our our audience? Yes. So initially, I thought I didn't really try to, involve my customers in medical affairs to my my metaverse experience or experiment, if you will. And I was at ASCO a few months ago, and 2 of the big top ten pharma company came to me and say, yes, we want to hear your pitch about your product, Bruno.
But what we really want is get on board into the metaverse. And, I nearly reluctantly went into that direction because, we're not a service company, we don't do consulting, we don't do we sell software. And we're not selling mid level software, we're selling AI software and competitive intelligent software and medical affairs software. But I decided to do it because they wanted 2 things in particular. They wanted to say, can the metaverse help us organize advisory board with key opinion leaders?
And in particular, the tumor boards in the cancer field. And the reason they said that is that, of course, pandemic happened, and a lot of the KOLs now are a little bit more reluctant to take a visit from an MSL. Some do, but many of them say, well, Zoom is fine. Zoom is fine. And same thing with advisory board. And what these farmers were telling me is that the level of engagement and presence from KOL on Zoom is very different.
Mhmm. Because they have the phone nearby, they have the keyboard, they have things going on, they can turn off the screen. So they are like me. They're triple tasking. Yeah. They're busy. They're patient. They have research. They're all kinds of things. So they're not present like they would be in person. And so the thought from these pharma is that if you have the headset on, first, there's a novelty, it's fun, it's interesting, it's a new experience, but also you have to be present.
You have to be present. You have to be in the advisory board. You pay to be in the advisory board. You show up, you put the headset on, your avatar is there, you see Doctor. Judy to the right, you see Doctor. Smith to you say hi, you can give a high five. You're present in a meeting. You just didn't need to get a ticket and fly to New Jersey for that meeting. Right. So this is like the next step past Zoom and Teams and your typical, you know, virtual meeting in front of a 2 d screen.
This immerses you into a whole another level of 3 d virtual reality, uninterrupted engagement with KOLs? Yes. And the benefit, the one I mentioned, meaning sort of the physicality or the near physicality of being present, but also sharing your scientific information can be great because you can actually show molecule in 3Ds. You can show a very engaging and novel type of data visualization, a mechanism of action. You can show molecule. You can show different curves in a dynamic way.
So there's a lot of things that are novel, that are engaging, that are going to be more remembered more vividly, in addition to the sense of being together and having a unique experience together. Right. So you're creating this experience. So let me ask you this. What do you is is there a, is there a real do you think a barrier of entry to this in this set? Not not in the sense that it's, obviously, it's super easy to get a headset. I'm sure. They're not that expensive. I'm sure some can be.
But I mean, a reluctancy where people are like, yeah. No. That's not for me. Or, you know, I don't wanna be in a video game. What's what are you seeing as the objections to this? Yeah. Well, first, the headset is heavy. Okay. It's actually after a while, they are lighter one, but it is it is heavy. 2nd, it takes the time to set it up. Mhmm. We recommend a 45 minute onboarding meeting before for someone who hasn't been in a metaverse experience.
And so, we a couple of days ago, we were with 1 of these 2 big pharma who wanted to do an initial onboarding with their medical affairs team. So we we had a table with 10 medical affairs professionals experiencing this before implementing it with their KOLs. It took 45 minutes separately with each of them to make sure they're comfortable. They understand how it works, and so we took that that role. It takes some time, and especially even more with doctors. We love doctors.
I'm married to a doctor. But sometimes doctors and technology, it's a little bit of, you know, there's a little bit of a gap there. And so, and QoS, especially maybe a little bit, you know, QoS that might be not fresh out of school, they might be a little bit intimidated by the technicality of it. So it takes some time. There's also some compliance issue. For example, it needs to be a loaner rather than a gift, the headset.
So when you invite the KOL to an advisory board, you cannot give them the headset. There will be some issue with sunshine and so on. So under US compliance law, it's a loaner for the purpose of 1 or maybe several participations to Advisory Board. But it does take an investment, and there's also probably some KOLs that are not going to be as receptive to it. So it might not be for every KOL or every MSL either.
So when you do when you do an advisory board, in the metaverse, do you send like, you had mentioned about them maybe not having a headset and not buying, but do you send it to them as a loaner or as, okay. Here's equipment for the meeting. Just get this thing, and then you do the orientation. You get it set up, and then that's all part of the process? That that's exactly what, what we do. Most of them today do not have a headset. Right. And if they have a headset, it's their kids have it.
And it's not that easy. So it takes really sending them a dedicated headset for the purpose of that meeting. But when you think about the $300 or $400 is much less than flying them anywhere and can be used multiple time. It takes much less time for them, So it's a much lower threshold to accept an invitation. It's not a minimum a day to go somewhere and come back. Here, it's a commitment of a couple of hours. Right. Right. And then so do you have any other examples?
I know you and I had talked and you had mentioned that, you know, there's a lot of interest now from the pharmaceutical and biotech industries, medical affairs departments. So what are you hearing? What are what are some of the requests that you're getting?
The level of interest this year has been very high, but at the same time, we know that our industry is going to be an industry that is going to be very deliberate in trying things, in doing a pilot, in considering the compliance aspects of all of this. So I hear both the enthusiasm and also the deliberate path that the industry is taking.
So I think that right now, first, there are going to be nearly no companies doing what we do, meaning our headquarter is on the metaverse, all of our business is on the metaverse, all of our meetings is on the that's not going to happen for a long, long time. Right. However, the organizing one off meetings with KOLs, or MSL teams doing retreat, the cost of a retreat of MSL is nothing on the metaverse.
And I tell you, the kind of places you can be at, the beaches, the mountains, the fun, the ability to do paintball, right? I mean, we did a retreat with my management team. We did a big two team fighting in the metaverse with paintball. And at the end, I fist bumped my VP, except I fist bumped the wall instead. I mean, there's a lot of fun and things you remember from all of this. So I think all of that is going to happen, but it's going to take a long time. It's going to take a long time.
And I think that before it becomes fully accepted, at least for a couple of years, it's going to continue to be made fun of. And even to be direct with your time, I expect that it will go from being made fun of today to be angering some people. Yeah. And the reason why I think it will anger some people before being accepted is that they will realize at some point that, yes, we are moving to the metaverse in a way.
We might not be in a simulation yet, but we, on our own accord, moving into to a simulation. Yeah. And the impact on our life is actually non trivial, right? Because, if I spend already 5 hours a day in the metaverse, in 20 years, how many hours would I spend and how many hours will everybody spend in the middle of nowhere? So the relationship with your family a little bit, right?
Because the relationship with your neighbor, I mean, the proximity based relationship that are based on just being neighbor, meaning close, as opposed to have affinity Right. Is going to be very different. So I expect that there's going to be a phase of tension and maybe even angering before it becomes accepted later on. Well, it's interesting, though, because in one sense, in hearing what you're saying, this is coming from a novice that doesn't spend any time on the metaverse.
You're saying that it can create a very intimate experience without distractions with people, teams of people, customers, clients, whatever, could be used for team building, training, just having fun meetings, advisory boards, different things. So there's a level of intimacy in that. Yet at the same time, it's not intimate at all because it's a simulation. Right? So I see where there's this conflict of how you perceive this.
And the conflict is going to be interesting to watch in the next few years. But I'm, of course, very optimistic about the technology because I saw what it did in my case. I saw how it even transformed relationships with some people I'm working with, who I've been maybe a little distant with, and now we share moments in the metaverse and the relationship evolved to the next level. I've seen that. I've seen colleagues who said, Bruno, I want to immigrate to the US, a colleague of ours in Pakistan.
And then realizing, oh, Bruno, I think I already immigrated because I'm spending time in the Laravel Manavas office. I might be in Karachi, but I'm actually already immigrated in some ways, right? So there's a lot of very exciting things happening, but at the same time, there are questions there are also questions about the etiquettes of business. How do we show ourselves? I mean, since an avatar is a decision, I pick my appearance. Right. How casual can it be? Can I come in a swimsuit? Right.
Do a business meeting? Some people do. You can shift completely your gender, your anything about you becomes a decision. Yeah. And so there's a lot of super interesting questions about business, about relationship that are going to emerge in the next few years. And I hope that our next meeting, by the way, Tom, is going to be avatar to avatar, in our beach chalet, in one of the metaverses where we have property.
I'm buying I'm going listen, I am going to get a headset, and I'm gonna meet with you on the metaverse because I'm actually very, very intrigued. I have never been there. I I'm not a big VR guy, and I'm not a big gamer. But I am intrigued by this. I think that there's real applications to this. I really like the idea. So now let me ask you this. You don't have any physical office space. Marvel doesn't have any physical office space. Everybody meets in the metaverse. Correct? Nearly correct.
I have an office, for for for legal reason, and the bank sometimes wants to see that you have a physical office. So I have an office. I go there once a week to pick up mail. Yeah. And that's why I keep all the swag. You gotta get the swag over there. Just so you guys know, Bruno Bruno so their color is purple. So everything is purple. Bruno always wears a purple hat, and I snagged a pair of purple socks at the last conference. Alright. So I have purple larval socks. I should have worn today.
I could have busted those out. I I I totally missed I missed that opportunity. But, yeah. Well, that makes sense. That totally makes sense. And, but I love, you know, I love this concept because I think it's it's a very unique there's an it's a unique business proposition. May not be for everyone, but there are very, very practical applications to this. And one thing to keep in mind, it doesn't compete with meeting in person as much as it competes with Zoom or Teams.
Now it's not going to be as easy as Teams. For a 15 minute call, you're not going to put the headset on Right. Because you're one click away on teams for talking to each other. Right. You cannot beat that. But if you have a meeting, there is a lot of value in finding a role for meeting in the metaverse. And also, there are side benefits. I mean, I might not be a VR guy, but maybe I guess we're into fitness. Well, last night, I downloaded or I used a boxing app, and I did a little bit of boxing.
Right? So there's a lot of things. One of my colleagues likes to see movies with he has he has 10 friends all over the world that he never met. Every Friday night, they do a movie night. They have a big screen in the metaverse. They sit next to each other. They pass fake popcorn, and they see a big movie on a huge screen. Uh-huh. Right?
There's a lot of things, that and friendship and personal relationships that are gonna impact our personal lives, and I believe also professional and and and the MSL world. So the MSLs that are listen, I really recommend and the and the medical affairs managers and directors, and I I recommend if they don't have a headset, they do what you just said you will do, Tom. Get a headset Yeah. And experience it yourself. Yeah. I'm doing it.
And, well, you know, another thing too is there's I don't know if any of you guys have seen the movie Ready Player 1, but that's a very good representation of a fictional representation, a movie based upon what technically is the metaverse, which is very interesting, very well done. You know what I'm talking about. Right, Bruno? You saw that movie? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. So there's your homework. Gotta get you have to watch that movie, and you have to get a headset.
And just a little color on this, actually. One of the metaverse spaces we have is a museum. Okay. A museum of digital art. You might have heard the term NFT, a non fungible token. So these are digital art. And again, for ASCO, the big cancer conference, we had KOLs Mhmm. Attend an event in the museum. Yeah. And they would group and congregate, look at the digital art, talk to each other.
The sound is what's called spatial, meaning if they're close to each other, they can hear, but they cannot hear doctor so and so on the other, side of the room, or they hear just a bruh a a. Right? So it represent the the the the feeling of all being in a space, in a museum together. And so people who like digital art, people who like art in general, that's something else to certainly look at.
And the whole area of what's called now Web 3, now that's another term that people are using, Web 3, which is the link between the metaverse and also nonfungible token and so on and so forth. So that whole world is going to continue to be very relevant in the next few years. So certainly, following all of that, is is, certainly a big part of my interest beyond medical affairs and beyond healthcare. It really interesting stuff, Bruno.
From a non techie kinda guy, who who didn't know much, I feel like I got a really good download part of the expression from you, and I appreciate it. I appreciate you coming on. This is this was a lot of fun. Again, guys, I'll keep you posted. Bruno and I are gonna meet on the on the metaverse, and I'll have to follow-up with you all and let you know how that went. So any final thoughts? Final words, Bruno? Well, thank you very much for, for having me, Tom.
I'm looking forward to seeing you in the metaverse with a headset on. And also seeing you in person. Because at the end of the day, as much as the metaverse is fun, you cannot still beat meeting in person, and having your coffee or meeting you at a conference or having a, having a dinner somewhere in in New Orleans or in Boston or somewhere where we both will meet next time. We will we will meet again soon. I need a I need a purple hat to go with my purple socks. Deal. Alright, my friend.
Guys, check out larval.com. Really interesting stuff. These guys are great. They've been around for a while. And and like I said, I'm a, you know, I'm a fan and a follower, and I've known Bruno a long time. And I wanna thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing your wisdom. Thanks, Bruno. Thanks, Tom. Okay, guys. Take care. See you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.