In this episode, my guest is Vanessa Jacobson, strategic external engagement director for J and J Oncology, and we talk about the top twelve attributes of a great MSL. I think you're gonna enjoy it. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Vanessa. Hi, Tom. How's it going? Good. How are you doing out there, out west? I'm doing great. Happy Friday. How's the, how's life in California?
So tell everybody, so you are where are you in California? I'm based in San Diego, California. San Diego. It is as gray and ugly as you could possibly imagine in New Jersey right now. So let's just what's it like there? Is it like 80 and sunny right now? It's not 80 and sunny, but it's definitely nicer in San Diego than it is in New Jersey. I can guarantee you that. But it's probably low sixties. So Oh my god. Well, good for you. So you are let me see.
You just got your title now is strategic external engagement director. So what tell us what that is. Yeah. So in, July of last year, I started a new role within Oncology Medical Affairs. I am the strategic external engagement director and I do report into the senior director of our medical science liaison team. My position is to oversee our engagement strategy at a pan oncology level.
So that's inclusive of all of our oncology business for our top academic institutions, our key community practices, as well as NCCN and third party pathway developers. So I work very closely with our MSL leadership team and our MSLs as well as our in house therapeutic area leads and our research and development and operations teams. Wow. I love that. Congratulations. So alright. So you're but you came from the the MSL director, MSL leadership side. That's where you were.
Like, how many years did you do that? So I did that for a little over 2 years. I was a field director for the West Coast MSL solid tumor team. And prior to that, I worked on our health economics and clinical outcomes research group where I was the scientific director for UnitedHealthcare. I've been at J and J for 15 years now. Been in oncology medical affairs for a little over 3a half. Wow. Alright. So let me ask you this because this is something people always wanna know.
So how did you break into industry? Like, what was so, obviously, all these fancy schmancy titles and you're a big shot, you did all that stuff. But, like, how did, like, how did you how did you start, and then how did you transition it? Yeah. No. Great question.
So I was actually giving a lecture at the Academy of Managed Care Pharmacy meeting many, many years ago and I was addressing I was at my previous employer and I was addressing formulary clinical development and how we made our P and T decisions.
And at the end of the conversation or presentation, someone came up to me from the audience and introduced themselves and asked if I'd be interested in grabbing a cup cup of coffee with them to talk about a new team that they were developing at Johnson and Johnson. And, a previous mentor of mine told me never turn anyone down when they wanna talk to you about a new opportunity because you just don't know.
So I had a cup of coffee and about a week later, I had an employment offer to come to j and j to be one of the first medical science liaisons on their managed markets MSL team. Wow. Look at you. That's awesome. I love that's cool. So you put yourself out there, you're doing your thing, and people are people came calling. Yep. It was really a fortunate circumstance for sure. Yeah. Well, so alright. We're gonna so but we're gonna talk about that a little bit because not everybody's that fortunate.
So we wanna Mhmm. Provide information that's going to help people that wanna transition or people that are already in the role Mhmm. And want to try to get promoted or advance their career. That's really the whole purpose behind this podcast. So you and I discussed ahead of time. We're gonna talk about the 12 the top 12 attribute attributes that make a great MSL, which I think is an awesome topic. And it was actually, you're right, Dina, so thank you for that. Thanks.
I think it's an awesome topic too. So let's talk about that. So let's start, let's start with number 1. And now are these in specific order? Just curious. Not really. Although I will say I tried to kind of give some perspective when I was kind of organizing my thoughts. The first one though I do think is fundamental, to any, anyone so, perhaps that might be the most important. Okay, so number 1. What do you got? Number 1 is strong scientific acumen.
Okay. You really need to be a reliable source of in-depth product information, not only for your company's products, but the competitor products as well and the disease state landscape. So without that, I think it's very difficult, to be a great MSL.
And if I could just add from a job search perspective for any aspiring MSLs that are listening out there, it is the kind of the foundation that a lot of companies look for is that specific scientific expertise that's going to make you a fit for their company. So if you are an oncology clinician or an expert in a certain therapeutic area, even if you don't have prior MSL experience, you may be very marketable to a company that specializes in oncology. So Absolutely.
Having really strong scientific acumen and scientific specific scientific expertise is always a very good thing. But it's absolutely mandatory as an MSL. So that's number 1. Mhmm. Awesome. Okay. What about number 2? Well, I think the next critical skill is around communication because everyone who knows about the MSL role knows that MSL spend a lot of their time communicating evidence and talking to healthcare professionals.
So we are looking for folks that are purposeful and persuasive in their communication and there's there's a couple of elements around that and a couple things I want to mention that I think are really kind of critical to keep in your mind. A great MSL knows what matters to their audience, whether it's a nurse, whether it's a physician, whether it's a key opinion leader or a pharmacist. You need to know what that person cares about and that's really how you tailor your communication.
So it's not the same presentation for everyone. It has to be adjusted to the audience. And really, one of the things that's critical, and I've seen great MSLs do this really well, they can have very deep scientific knowledge, but they adjust their content and their delivery to the expertise of the audience.
So if they're talking about the mechanism of action, for example, on a product to a group of nurses, that conversation looks and feels very differently than if they're talking to a pharmacist audience who is very interested in MOA as an example. So just kind of something to keep in mind. Yeah. Okay. So that sounds like 1, 2, for sure. That's the 1, 2 punch. You need strong scientific acumen and expertise and strong communications communication skills. So, I mean, that to me is definitely 1, 2.
So what would be 3? I think a big part of an MSL success is their ability to collaborate and partner. Mhmm. And that's not only internally within the company, within the MSL team, but also with the cross functional partners, whether that be the r and d group or the commercial team, so the sales representatives. And we think about, you know, success, and I'll tell you, in 15 years, I've never seen someone be successful without strong collaboration and partnership skills. Alright.
That's a good point. I love that one. So and does that vary by company, by size? Like, if you have a smaller company, does that look different than, you know, J and J? Yeah. A little bit because in a larger pharmaceutical company, it's more it's it's more staff, more partners, it's more matrixed, it becomes more complicated. In a smaller company with fewer employees, it could be easier or perhaps more streamlined. So there is some variation there.
But I do think that regardless of the size of the company you work for, you wanna make sure that you are seen as a go to resource, whether it's internally, anyone within the company, as well as externally. Yeah. Okay. Alright. So 3, collaboration and partnership. What is number 4? 4, I thought a lot about this, and I have to say credibility is really high up there on the list. So I put credibility as number 4 because, really, if you are not credible, you're dead in the water.
No one will believe anything you say. So credibility and integrity is very important. So that's credibility this is an external, like, more external or is this external and internal credibility? Well, probably both, but even more so important externally with the healthcare professionals that you're speaking to. So part of that is being able to articulate the evidence and being unbiased in the information that you provide.
Because if they see you as a biased source, they might be skeptical of the information that you're providing them. Okay. Alright. I'm not good at counting. I think we're number 5. Yeah. So number 5. Yeah. Number 5. Know your territory better than anyone. Yeah. And so, really, when I when I talk about territory, there's different elements that I'm thinking about. So who are the health care professionals in your territory? What are the key institutions in your territory?
What does the landscape look like in your territory? Okay? And a big part of it that's sometimes hard to uncover is the political dynamics at an institution or within a department, but that's really priceless information that people who are sitting in the home office don't have, necessarily line of sight to, which the MSL can really help inform them, and that would determine how they navigate certain situations, etcetera.
The other piece too is ongoing research, so know what studies are going on in your therapeutic area, not only with your company, of course Mhmm. But the competitors as well. Okay. So know your territory. So what about with, you know, aspiring MSLs, junior MSLs, someone that just comes in? Mhmm. How do how do they jump into it? Obviously, there's gotta be some training. There's some initial training.
But what can they do in the early days of their career to get ramped up really quickly, to be really good at their territory management and understanding how to navigate through their territory? Would you Yeah. So a couple things and recommendations that I have. So first is get out there. You're not gonna learn your territory sitting in your office. I mean, you can do research and find information, but you really need to get out there and meet people.
And one of the key pieces of of advice that I have for a new MSL is get to know every single person in that office. The receptionist at the front desk could be your key to getting into a very difficult to see doctor or practice. So make yourself known, introduce yourself, and get to develop a relationship with everyone. And that's really how you learn a lot of the behind the scenes things. For example, the political dynamics.
No one's going to tell you docs doctor x doesn't like doctor y, necessarily until you get to know them and they can kind of give you those interoffice dynamics, if you will. So that's really important. Get out there. Okay. The other element too is really talking to your partners because they're a great source of information.
So if you have a counterpart on the sales team that's been in the territory for 15 years and you're new to the area or you're new to the company and you don't really have a baseline knowledge, they could be an awesome source of information for you. Mhmm. As well as your counterpart MSLs too. Right? So within j and j, we have several MSL teams.
So it's always good to phone a friend and talk to them about an institution, for example, that they have HCPs at as well and get their perspective and get some intel from them. Got you. Okay. Good stuff. So what about, number 6? Number 6. This is one of my favorite ones, and this is the art of asking questions. And I've seen great MSLs nail this. And really, it's one of the key differentiators in my mind of good versus great.
Because when you're asking people questions and you're trying to extract information from them, you need to do it in a way where they don't feel like they're being interrogated. And I have seen MSLs, both experienced and inexperienced MSLs, fire off a slew of questions, making the healthcare professional feel very uncomfortable.
And so you have to be careful on how you ask questions and how you take that information because not only is there an art to asking questions, but there's an art in distilling that information to really know what's important in terms of information that needs to be shared with your partners or distilled down to kind of the key takeaways and how you're gonna communicate that internally.
Because voice a customer, when you get intel from a key opinion leader, for example, in your territory, that's very valuable information, as an MSL that you can provide internally within your company. So asking questions is kinda part and parcel to getting that intel or voice of customer. So you need to kinda be able to digest it and distill it and know who and when to share it with. Right. So it's not just knowing the questions to ask, it's knowing how to ask the questions.
Mhmm. Yeah. It's almost more important than the questions themselves. Although, I do think that, especially for newer MSLs, it is helpful and one of the things that we do with our team is we do give them listening priorities, things that they want to think about, things that we're interested in, and so we do try to provide a list of topics, not necessarily specific questions, but a list of topics.
And that's helpful, especially if it's an awkward conversation and you're kind of at a, you know, a dull point. You might, you know, decide, hey. I wanna ask this person what they think about x, y, or z. Right. So you hit you a very important word that you mentioned, listening. So obviously listening is a big part of this. Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Definitely. You have to know the right questions to ask.
You have to know how to ask them, and you also have to be a good listener so that you can, you know, carry the dialogue and know what question comes next. Right? Yeah. For sure. Awesome. Alright. We are number 7 now, I think. Yeah. Number 7. So time management. It's so important because an MSL job, you are a multitasker. Yeah. By default, there's so much on your plate.
And so you really need to have excellent time management skills because you will find that, you know, when you're in your office and you're working from home and you're traveling to see different HCPs or accounts, you know, your schedule is very fluid. And the priorities are constantly changing. Right?
We might get an FDA approval earlier than we expected, and that could totally, you know, throw a wrench in our week or even our month in terms of what we're doing and who we're seeing, what our priorities are. So you really need to have time management down to a science because you'll be pulled in a lot of different directions. And there's a lot of self study and and time you need to kinda keep up on the literature and to attend trainings so that you can maintain that scientific acumen.
So that is always kind of competing with the need to be out there meeting with people, talking to them about the data or the trial. Got you. Okay. That's a good one. So, number 8. The rise in an environment of change and ambiguity. And why do I say that? Because there is really no other industry that I could think of that's more dynamic than the pharmaceutical industry. Yeah. I'll give you an example.
So I hired an MSL a couple years ago, and on their first day, this just kinda happened by chance, we had an internal reorganization and a realignment of our MSL territories. So the territory that I hired this person for included 4 states, and after the realignment, it only included 3. So that was very kind of shocking to the person, and, you know, they were like, how am I gonna put my arms around this? And and that is pharma, really. Change is constant.
And there are some people who really struggle in that kind of environment. And and for those people that do, they really have to ask themselves, is this the industry to go in? Because there are a lot of other options out there that are more stable, with less change than the pharmaceutical industry. But with that said, even if you are uncomfortable, at times of change, that is a skill set that can be learned.
And you can really kind of reflect and think about mechanisms that you could put in place to be more comfortable with change and how to navigate the waters, so to speak, as they're changing and as things evolve. Right. So flexibility, you need to be dynamic. It's funny. So when I first I was in the field for 10 years before I accidentally, on purpose, became a recruiter. And, my first manager said to me one of the first things she said to me is, nothing is what it seems.
And I was like, wait, what? What are you talking about? And she's like, you're in the pharmaceutical industry. She's like, and it is volatile and things change, so just roll with it and Yeah. Buckle up your seat belt. And she was right because even back then, a 1000000 years ago, it was it's the same. There's always always changes. So, I love that one. I think that's great. So what are we at? 9? 8? We're at 9. 9. So it's very important that the MSL, the great MSL does this effortlessly.
They they set aside a lot of time to prepare before they actually meet with the physician or the nurse or the pharmacist. So preparation. Yeah. And this is so key, because really, again, another defining moment for a good MSL who does a little bit of research, knows the information, you know, has a strong scientific acumen, but a great MSL is going to, number 1, anticipate questions. That's so key.
You you don't want to get stumped and, you know, everyone gets stumped now and again, but you wanna think about, okay. What are the kind of questions that this person, this physician, this nurse is gonna ask me, and how can I prepare ahead of time? Who do I talk to internally within the company as part of that pre call plan to really make sure I understand or the MSL understands what's going on at the institution at the account. And that is, you know, fundamental to, the success of a great MSL.
Yeah. Having a very firm agenda with goals and objectives is key too because a lot of times you could go to a meeting, and if you have not put a lot of thought into what you wanna get out of it, you leave saying, okay. Well, I'm not really sure that was so successful. So think about what that objective or goals, for that interaction look like. And always think before you go into that appointment, if someone were to ask you, hey. What's new?
What's going on with this product or the competitor product? You have an answer. See, I always wanna be cutting edge, and that does require pretty significant preparation in advance. So when you talk about, like, pre call plan, obviously, we're talking about preparation, readiness, do your homework, but, like, with pre call planning, is that, like, is that a part of your training? Do you actually train like, when someone is onboarded, it goes through training, is is that a part of training?
Or is it something that you just educate them on ride alongs? Like, how do people get better at that? Because some people are planners and they just inherently plan. And other people are just they wing it. Yeah. So, you know, has that more focus. Yeah. So a good training program, especially for someone who's new to industry incorporates how to pre call plan and what does pre call planning look like. So we, as example, at j and j, we have a checklist that we've developed.
And when we're training in oncology MSL, we talk to them about pre call planning. And they get that from various folks within the company, so they everyone is assigned a mentor, and that mentor can talk to them about pre call planning, but their director also talks to them about pre call planning. And so they hear different perspectives around pre call planning. And for a new MSL who's never done the job before, you know, a checklist is helpful.
And so until you kinda get it, you know, on autopilot, we encourage people to refer to that. Got it. Okay. Mhmm. Good. Good. So word number 10. Number 10, follow-up. Oh goodness. This is one that's near and dear to my heart, because I can't tell you how often. When I was a customer, 1000000 of years ago, people would say, oh, I'll follow-up. I don't, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. I'll get back to you, and then I never heard from them.
And to me, that was, like, a deal breaker. If you told me you were gonna get back to me with information and I didn't hear from you, I probably wasn't gonna see you another time because I was like, yeah. This person doesn't say what they're, you know, doesn't do what they say they're gonna do. So you need to follow-up, and make a list of items that require follow-up and make sure you get back to that person in a timely manner.
And sometimes it takes a while to get an answer, so what I would recommend in that situation is, you know, within a day or 2, sending an email and say, hey. I haven't forgotten. I'm working on this, and as soon as I have an answer, I'll get back to you. That goes a really, really long way, and that's something that a great MSL does. Right? Mhmm. And the other piece too is, as follow-up not only to that HCP, but also internally.
So if you go in and you meet with a health care professional who's a principal investigator on a trial and you, you know, have a have feedback, who are you gonna share that with? Who do you debrief internally? So it's kind of that voice of customer element again, but sharing that information is really important because that's how, for example, in the case of a clinical trial, that's how amendments happen.
It's that feedback that the MSL hears from an investigator that take, you know, the r and d team will take a second look at the protocol and say, oh, well, we didn't really think about that. We need to amend it. So it's so important. Got it. Mhmm. So, obviously, you guys do you guys track MSL insights? I'm sure you do. Yeah. We do. And most pharmaceutical companies do because it's one of the key, currencies of an MSL team. And does that prompt follow-up?
So, you know, obviously, you're okay with interaction, track the insight, and then use whatever program you use to to record that. But is there is there any kind of follow-up mechanism within that program that will make sure that maybe the person makes a note or is that up to them to be thorough with their follow-up? Yeah. I mean, I would say in most instances, it's usually up to the NFL to keep track of their follow ups. So as an example, I'll give you, you know, kind of a, a real life example.
So let's say that you're meeting with someone and they ask you for data, that you don't have, that the data hasn't been generated yet, but you know that you have a company sponsored trial that's gonna answer that question. It just hasn't cut out yet. Right? So one of the things that I would do is I would make a list of all the people that I needed to follow-up once I had that data. Right? So I would tell the HCP, look.
That is actually the objective of this company sponsored trial that we're doing, and we are expecting it to complete around this time, or we don't know when it that trial is gonna finish enrolling, and we're gonna have results. But as soon as I have that information, I'm gonna come back. So I, in the, dark ages of paper and pencil, would write that down on a little Post it on my desk and keep it there.
Now people are using OneNote and other apps to kinda keep track of that, but, really, the responsibility does fall on the MSL. I don't think there are a lot of internal systems in place within a company to kinda track that for you. You have to figure out the mechanism to do it yourself. Yeah. So it's important. Alright. So that's number 10. Right? And now we're on we're almost done. Number 11. High EQ, emotional intelligence. Self awareness. Oh goodness. This is This is a big one.
This is a big one. And, really, a great MFL has that awareness. And not only externally when they're talking to people and and having an idea of how their message is being received and how they might need to adapt, based on the circumstance or the setting or the individual that they're talking to, but also internally as well within the company, how they're perceived by their peers, how they're perceived by their business partners.
It's just so important and, you know, that's one of the harder things to kinda teach someone. It it can be done, but it's a lot, easier to be successful when that's very inherent and natural for you. And there's there's there's no secret. You know, I think the the secret's out that emotional intelligence is a very important part of being an MSL, and there's so much available. There's books. There's videos.
There's a lot I think that would help that can help MSLs that are looking to for self improvement. Yeah. And I I do believe that you can improve on this. Some people say, well, you know, you can't you can't really teach it. I I don't I don't think I agree with that. I think that you can through practice, and it's funny. So that same manager that I was talking about before, she used to say, you can't teach height, which is true. You either have it or you don't.
And I think to an extent, maybe you could say that about emotional intelligence. Mhmm. But I think through practice and through self, you know, kinda self education, I think you can improve, I think. Well and I think, you know, one of the one of the ways to build emotional intelligence and to enhance your self awareness is to ask people for feedback on you. Right? And then you need to reflect on that feedback and you need to say, is that how I thought it came across? You know, do you agree?
Do you disagree? And, you know, even if you disagree, perception is key. Perception is important. So I've had instances where I thought I was very clear and deliberate in what I was saying and how I was communicating it, and people got a completely different message. And I always ask for feedback. How, you know, how do you think that went? Was there something I could have done better? What do you think? Because that's how, you know, you you get that information.
And, you know, sometimes you know, okay. I I missed it. Right? I did not hit the mark. That's not how I wanted it to go. But other times, you do have to rely on your peers, to to share that. So Yeah. That's good. Good advice. Yeah. So we're, we're number 12. Last one. Enthusiasm. Energy and passion for what you do. I mean, you you see MSLs that are kind of blah. They don't have a lot of excitement for the data, for the disease state, for the product, and that shows.
But when you're really excited about what you're talking about and what it is you're doing, that comes through and that's so important. And that is one of the things that all of our great MSLs exhibit. They really do love their job and have a lot of passion, not only for the science, but for the patients and for educating other people about, you know, important information that they may not otherwise be informed on. Yeah. Totally agree. I total actually, I agree with all of them.
I think that that is a perfect list. You nailed it. Thanks. No. I think it's great. So because I'm a recruiter and because I always have to relate everything to, you know, the interview process and the job search. Mhmm. So as I as we talk about this list, I think about this list. Like, the question that I can't help but ask is, are these attributes ones that you're looking for when you're interviewing MSLs? Like, is this constantly on your mind?
And if so, like, are your questions centered around, you know, trying to find out if they yeah. Okay. Definitely. And, you know, I actually every time I interview an MSL, I always ask them, what do you think separates a good MSL from a great MSL? Because I wanna hear, number 1, that they appreciate that there are, you know, differences in terms of, being good or great at what you do and what they think those are.
And during an interview, even without asking specific questions on each one of these attributes, you pick up on it. Like, the enthusiasm, for example. You either, you know, see it or you don't. You don't need to ask about, you know, do you have passion for oncology? You see it. You feel it. I mean, really, with enthusiasm, you do feel it. Right? Yeah. So, some of these, yes, we do ask very pointed questions.
As an example, all of our interviews do require a presentation so we can see the scientific acumen and the communication skills very loud and clear during that presentation. So, you know, it's a little kind of a mix of observation versus specific questions versus the presentation component to the interview. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. So for all MSLs that are out there, maybe jot this down, pay attention, listen closely, listen again, and, take some notes before your next interview.
But I think this is great. I think it's great really for anyone, anyone that's in the business, anyone who's currently in MSL, anyone who's an aspiring MSL. I mean, does it differ I guess, last question. Does it differ if you have somebody who's never been in MSL before and they're interviewing for a position? How do they use this information? Yeah. That's a great question.
So I think for people who don't have MSL experience, really doing their homework about the MSL role is so critical because some sometimes people think they understand what an MSL does, but they don't really understand all the facets of the job. So I've interviewed people where, you know, they thought it was purely based on research and company sponsored trials. And, yes, that's a large part of the job but there are other components as well.
So make sure you really understand what it is, particularly at the company that you're interviewing for because there is a little bit of variation out there within the industry of what MSLs do. Right? And then I would say that, you know, make sure you're familiar with these attributes and reflect on yourself and identify those areas of strength that you exhibit. Right?
So you might know you're an awesome communicator and you got that one nailed, but you might have to work on the art of asking questions. Right? And so as you're preparing to get your first industry job, do that reflection and then you could really kind of target your soft skill work and development around that.
So if you know that your scientific acumen is really strong and your communication skills are really strong, but you're uncomfortable asking someone questions, you feel like you're interrogating them, then you might want to take a development course or you might want to read a book about how to do that so that when you get that opportunity to interview, and as we all know, you only get one chance to make a first impression, that you are able to really
kind of articulate that you have these attributes in one way, shape, or form. Yeah. That's amazing. Awesome. You're awesome. How are you? That is great. You're awesome. So Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. You have to come back. We have to do this again Sure. For now. Happy to. It's 37 degrees and raining in New Jersey. It's probably 80 and sunny in Saint Louis. Well, the sun has come out since we've been talking.
So So you enjoy your weekend, and best of luck in your new role and your world domination. And, yeah. And we'll talk soon. Thank you, though. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Alright. Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again. And we look forward to seeing you soon.