Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Jeff Vaughn. He is the national MSL director at Ashfield, and we talk about top 10 MSL skills that are not always taught or reinforced by leadership. Awesome conversation. I think you guys are really gonna like it. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube and Instagram, and check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is on Clubhouse the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. And also hit me up on LinkedIn if you haven't connected with me yet.
Would love to connect with you. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for listening. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Jeff. Thanks for joining me. How are you doing? Welcome today. Thanks, Tom. Glad to be here, and, thanks for the opportunity today. Yeah. You know, we were just, so for those of you that are joining us, Jeff and I, we're just catching up. It's late in the day.
It's been a long day, but we're committed to doing this. I can't wait to have this conversation. It's, it's a really interesting topic. We're gonna talk about top 10 skills, MSL skills, that aren't always reinforced or taught by leadership. And this is your baby, man. You came up with this topic. You have some really good stuff to share. So but before we get into that, why don't we, why don't you do a quick introduction? Yeah. Thanks, Tom. And again, appreciate the opportunity.
I'm always, in favor of trying to promote the MSL career field in any way that I can. And this is a great venue that you have started, with just getting the word out. I think these this particular topic is is really interesting because I've seen it develop over time as being, an MSL leader in the field. So, just a little bit about currently what I'm doing. I'm actually Ashfield Healthcare's medical affairs director, nationally.
So, I run programs both in the US and in Canada for various therapeutic areas ranging from ID to women's health and, more or less helping on the business development strategy part of medical affairs as well as kinda not leaving my my comfort zone and still managing MSL teams. So, currently able to do a little bit of this remotely. So I currently live in, Tampa, Florida, Enjoying, the good weather so far.
But, very happy to be here and looking forward to taking a deep dive and discussing some of these important topics. Yeah, man. Me too. Definitely looking forward to it. Before we get started, I have to do a quick shout out 2 quick shout outs. We have some some new listeners in Saudi Arabia. Believe it or not, we were ranked really high in the careers category last week in Saudi Arabia. So first time I've seen us pop up on the charts over there. So welcome, everyone. Thank you for listening.
And another shout out. A lot of people are traveling, getting back out on the road. So anyone that's listening to this podcast in your car, you're traveling somewhere, Thank you for joining us. I'm really grateful for you guys for listening, and be safe. And wherever you're going, if you're going to the KOL meeting, I hope you guys crush it. But thanks again. So, Jeff, let's get into it.
We're gonna talk about some MSL skills that are really important, may not totally be reinforced, by MSL leadership, and you have 10 of them. So let's start with number 1. What's what's your which kind of top on your list? Yeah. I think most of our MSL community can relate to this first topic, and it's really preparation. And what I mean by that specifically is how are you preparing for that first engagement?
I also kind of I wanna highlight this piece of it because right now we're in a virtual world, and we're having to integrate the practices of previously going to a face to face meeting and having to engage virtually through various formats. And I think you can't really put the importance enough on the preparation piece more so now because we're having to sometimes meet that KOL face to face or, excuse me, virtually.
And that impact has to be even more emphasized because there isn't a preexisting relationship that's put in place. Or, you know, nothing can take the the the place of a handshake and a greeting. And I think because we don't have that in some formats, we're really having to do our homework ahead of time. And so this first policy as far as preparation really comes into play of learning to be an expert in the virtual world.
And what I mean by that is preparing the different, formats ahead of time in terms of Zoom, Webex, Microsoft Teams, and becoming more of an expert that previously we weren't accustomed to. So it's that piece of preparation, but also really doing your research on that KOL ahead of time and finding out where those common interests lie before that virtual piece takes place.
So I think that's something that we've learned over the COVID environment, is that we have to become more refined in who we research and learning some commonalities through that research to make that impact, you know, have more oomph, if you will, because we're having to do this in a virtual world. Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's so important, and that's that's such a key thing. And and, to your point, I don't know how reinforced that is.
I know that a lot of leaders, they recommend and and they prefer that their MSOs do prequal planning and stuff like that, but I don't know how enforced it is. I don't I don't think it's a metric. It's not so to your point, because of the environment that we're in and the environment that we're going into, I mean, I think it's gonna be like this for a while. And if at the very least, it'll be hybrid, this is just not gonna be any less important in in in the near term. So that's great.
So preparation, what about number 2? What would you say is the second thing? Jason Brett (zero twenty:fifty four): Yeah. When I first took on an MSL position, I really had little idea about how involved it would be to be your own business manager. And what I mean by that is owning your territory. In many aspects, to be successful in the MSL role, you really have to have a business acumen, about you.
It's not just regurgitating the data and the science, but more of territory planning and thinking outside the box. Some companies will provide an initial KOL list or target list.
I think that's great as a general guidance because you know where you can start from, but really to emphasize your value within your company, you need to step out and think beyond what is provided to you initially and say, you know what, I know that for example, I need to talk to rheumatologists, but what other specialty areas can I reach out to that could have some commonalities and expanding and refining and bedding that list?
That really shows your value and that you're not just responding to an initial request and filling, you know, checking the boxes saying, hey, I did this. I think those are attributes that stand out with any MSL, in any therapeutic area. So didn't understand that when I first interviewed for my first job and somebody says, what about your management skills? I think that that that piece of it is as important as knowing your scientific background and knowledge.
Yeah. Yeah. We, reminds me, we did an episode recently on territory mapping. Just kind of another term that you hear a lot. A lot of people are like, well, what is it? Can you talk about it? So, but it it to your point, I mean, you have to take ownership of your territory. You have to go out there and, yeah, you're gonna get a list, or maybe you're not gonna get a list. Whether you do, you don't.
You still have to own your territory, and you have to make sure that you're you're speaking to the right people and and you're handling your territory properly. So awesome insight. What about number 3? So this is probably if I could move this to 3 to maybe even 2 as far as priorities, I would say it's it's high up there as just learning to be an insight expert. And what do I mean by that?
You know, it's always been a struggle in medical affairs to, you know, tug of war with between commercial and medical. You know, commercial drives the ship. That's where the money's at. We all get that. But where do we make the most impact from a strategic level as an MSL? And that's really coming back with, not just competitive information and intel, but also what is the field saying?
And how besides the information that you receive from your engagements, how are you crafting that insight that ultimately will get seen by your leadership? And this is something that I know people have heard of in the field. They know what an insight is. But how do you construct a usable, understandable, relevant, and impactful insight? And you have to do that within 2 to 3 sentences. It's like, being in college and saying, you know, you have an essay to write.
Well, a 1,000 word essay is easier than a 250 word essay because you have to take all the elements of importance and condense that. Right. And I think if you're trying to visualize that into, the medical affairs arena, it's taking the conversation pieces, learning to condense that into impact. But also equally important, as you gauge your conversation with your KOL, how do you pull those insights out from the KOL? So it's not a canned conversation.
It's an art form to say, hey, what about your interest in this? What are your thoughts about this? And it doesn't necessarily even have to be the drug itself. But even the pharmacology, for example, maybe doing the the back interest in preparation and knowing what their, you know, what they publish on, you can pull from their their interest into an insight that's impactful for the company. That's awesome.
Yeah. It's so there's there's it's the the art it's funny you took the word right out of my mouth. The art of insights gathering and then the art of insights reporting. Two different things that go together into the same thing. To be an insights expert, you kinda have to combine those two things. Yeah. And here's what makes it even more difficult, Tom. You have to really take the information and make it into a method that is understandable by someone that isn't from medical.
Because a lot of times, those insights are shared with leadership. It could be someone that's from managed markets. It could be from somebody that is in a global lead position. And those words that come from that insight have to be plain and simple enough where it's universally understood, but you're taking a complex theme sometimes and having to put it into simple language. Yeah. Good stuff. So let's see. We're on number 4. What's next? Working cross collaboratively.
Another, very important aspect. I think that a lot of times, you know, you get into situations coming into a new company, you're an MSL, and there's a tendency to think that you're in your own world. And there is a clear division, of course, from a compliance standpoint where, you know, we can't cross the line and vice versa with commercial. And the tendency and mindset is that, hey, we're gonna keep everything from within. We're gonna keep our secrets from within.
But really understanding the role as a whole is very important when you're starting your MSL career because one function cannot survive without the other. So I think from a longevity standpoint, and you're looking at making that impact with medical affairs, it's understanding your partners' roles within the company and finding ways to put the word out that we, you know, you can work as a team member.
It's the team concept can't be looked at as MSL team, but it has to be looked at as a whole, as a company and saying, where can we compliantly work with one another? Where can I pull from the commercial side, manage market side, and make that engagement, that relationship that you're trying to build with that KOL more robust and impactful? Mhmm. And, you know, that's we always hear this the value discussion. You always hear about MSL's bringing value to the organization.
And that's a perfect example if when you work, you know, collaboratively and cross functionally, you're just improving that value, and that message that MSLs bring value back to the organization and within the organization by being a good partner. And Yeah. I agree. And I think sitting sort of like in some of the global leadership talks and talking to partners that aren't from medical affairs, they try to understand where our impact lies.
And I think, in terms of relevance and having those discussion points and best practices, the more that we're able to compliantly share and to gather those resources from other divisions within the company, the value becomes a little bit more clear to those those decision makers that say, hey, you know what? Do we expand our medical affairs budget? Do we limit it? Do we cut the team? It's not going to be always clear cut in terms of what is relayed in even medical insights.
If we're checking the box on meetings, how does that really, come to fruition when someone outside of medical affairs is looking at the value? We have to be able to say, hey, look, we've worked with commercial, we've worked with we've involved, you know, managed markets, HUR, those type of divisions where we've got cheerleaders on our side outside of medical affairs, if that makes sense. Yep. For sure. Awesome. So we're on number 5. So this is just taking, ownership of medical engagement.
And part of that is becoming an active listener. I think this is something that I have had to discover over time because we're so enthusiastic. We have our 1st MSL job. We're ready to come out of the gate charging, and we wanna get the information out to the KOL. But it's very difficult to be a listener. It's easy to be take the platform and say, hey. You know what? I got all this information I wanna share with you, Tom. It's great.
But we oftentimes don't pause to allow the reply or even initiating the conversation doesn't come from the KOL. And I think we're selling ourselves short when we don't take that time to listen and then allow pause for response. And if we don't have the answer, that's great. We all know. Don't make it up. Right? Mhmm. But I think it also provides us with potential insight by being that listener.
And you can have an engagement, and 70% of the time, you're that listener instead of the one that's telling. And it becomes a a great relationship. I don't and, you know, experts in the field, medical field, they like to they like to hear themselves talk a lot of times. So sometimes, you have to lean into that and play into their particular personalities. Of course.
I mean, that's another we talk about the art forms of being a successful MSL, and that's another art form, is being a good listener and asking good questions, which go hand in hand. And that's such an important piece of the equation that I would think would be reinforced, but I can see it being on this list because I think a lot of times leadership leaves it up to the MSL to to do this. But I think it it really is something that people need.
I think I think they need help and practice with it more so than we might think. And I and I know that there's I know a lot of people that I talk to on this podcast are really brilliant and really good at this, But I've also had conversations with people that tell me, I struggle with this. This does not come easy to me. So I think this is a good one for sure. Perspective, and one of the things that I enjoy the most is going out on field rides to evaluate the MSL.
I feel like outside of the metrics, this is where you can really show see the value and impact that your MSLs are making. And oftentimes, what I to your point, you're really good at it or you're a novice and you're learning.
But where I've seen the struggle area is just taking time, slowing the roll down, as you say, you know, and allowing that conversation to come to you and allowing the the KOL to speak and actively listen to them, make the eye contact, you know, really show visually and particularly we're going back to the virtual piece of this.
It's very, very important that looking into the camera, looking at knowing where your positioning is on the Zoom call, and really trying to, I would say, relay authenticity and realism where you can't get that, you know, in a as much than a face to face meeting. Sure. Yeah. Awesome. Good stuff. So we'll move on to number 6, I believe. Right. So soft skills training, I think a lot of, MSLs have heard this term.
I think even in spite of it being a very overused term, I still believe that this is even in experienced MSLs, it's something that's rare. It's hard. I interview MSL candidates on a daily basis, and I've seen candidates come from academic institutions, Ivy League backgrounds, and they're really smart even in a clinical setting.
The struggle always has been, hey, can you take what you've learned in school and put it into a conversation piece that's interesting, that's alluring, that's going to elicit good feedback? And, you know, I I have a subset into this soft skills piece and saying, you know, sometimes you're only gonna have a couple minutes. And I I think on I can recall one team that I'm working with now and really great MSL, and she is having to explain her role, what an MSL is.
And a lot of times, unless you're coming from research or academia, you're gonna have to go out and explain who you what you do for the company. You have to dispel sort of the division between you and a rep, and you have to have that nailed down. Sure. Sure. How do you do that in a conversational manner to make that KOL comfortable with giving you information to say, alright. You're a colleague more than you are trying to push anything out.
So the elevator speech really gets down to knowing what you need to say, make it impactful, and maybe sometimes you only have 2 minutes to do it because people are busy. They're seeing patients. They're doing research. You have to compartmentalize your time based on what they're willing to give you and make it like that elevator speech, whether it be 1 minute or 5 minutes, or sometimes you're lucky enough to have an hour. Those those are far and few between. Yeah. No. For sure.
And and, you know, we we talk a lot on this podcast about emotional intelligence and soft skills, and all this stuff goes hand in hand. And it needs to be practiced. It needs to be monitored. It needs to be it doesn't come naturally for everybody. For some people, it comes really naturally. There's an old expression. You can't teach height. And and and and but in this situation, I think you can. I think that there there's definitely a lot of this that can be taught.
There's a lot of finesse that can be taught in someone's interpersonal skill set. Some of it is harder than it's gonna come harder for for some than others, but, you know, it's gotta be something focused on. I think the whole point of this conversation is what needs to be reinforced and focused on more so than maybe it is. So I like that one. I think that's a really good one. What about number 7? Yeah. Just understanding the big picture.
And what I mean by that is sometimes a company will hire an MSL team, maybe after post launch or prelaunch, or it's been the the drug has been out for 5 or 6 years, or they're losing their patent. I think it's really important to understand where you are stepping your feet into when it comes to where the research pipeline is. In other words, do your homework. Know where you're coming into, at the lifecycle of that drug or drugs. So, I think it serves a twofold purpose.
First of all, you know where you're sitting in terms of preparation. So is this a pre launch type of situation where they're bringing on the medical team early enough, you'll eventually have to train speakers and commercial and you're more involved in doing a lot of a setup. When you're coming into a late phase, it's like, okay. What does the company have next? What's the survivability looking like for that medical team? Where can the impact happen?
So a lot of this goes back to point 1 in doing research. Right? That transcends to even the company that you're working for. I mean, you know, we deal, at with a lot of medium to small sized biotech and even big pharma. And I would say, you know, a lot of what we do also involves prelaunch phase development. But I think equally as important is is taking a look and doing your research, even on their stocks, where they're going in terms of investment.
You really just have a have to have a a really good keen, aspect of where they're growing financially, but also where they're growing scientifically in the pipeline. You know, it's funny, someone asked me to help them. They're putting together a presentation for a conference that's coming up. And the question, or I think the focus of this talk is, what future skills what skills are gonna be most important in the future for MSLs.
Because of where things are going, where things are now, are the MSLs gonna be hybrid? Are they gonna be virtual? You know, where are things going to go? And my answer and my, you know, my 2¢ to the equation was MSLs now and more so in the future have to be more proactive than reactive. And it's amazing how all of the so far, we've had this top seven things. All had some proactive element to it. All have some you have to take initiative. You have to do preparation. You have to work at this.
You have to hone certain skills. And I I feel pretty validated that I think I'm on the right track because all of the stuff that you're bringing up shows how important it is to be proactive as an MSL, compliantly. I don't wanna get anybody in trouble, and not just reactive. You really have to take initiative in order to be a successful MSL. Yeah. You know, it used to be years ago, Tom, that MSLs could be they were added on as a complement to commercial for access, you know, issues.
And the MSL could largely become pretty busy in there during the weekday by just responding to commercial requests. Hey, I need you to go in here or I need you to talk to doctor so and so because, you know, you're a doctor or you have this educational background. And and I think that that our environment has shifted us to becoming more of a hybrid if you even leaning on that proactive piece.
Because for years we've wanted to get the notice from pharmaceutical leadership to say, here's our impact. In order to do that, we need to step out of our comfort zone. And that's a common theme that I'm starting to see evolve where the MSL teams are no longer going to be just responding to commercial requests compliantly, but also there is an element of still that occurring. But I would say more now, it's more of a 70% proactive shift and about a 30% responsive to commercial needs.
Totally agree. Totally agree. We're on the same page. So let's go to number 8. 8's great from my perspective because I love development, job development within the medical affairs community. And I've always said, you always have an opportunity to work for and this isn't just in Med Affairs, but in general, you get good bosses and you get bad bosses. And I always say that you either stay with your your current career because of your boss or you leave because of your boss. Right?
A lot of it is culture and environment and nurturing the needs of your team individually. And I put this down here because it's really important for me, personally and professionally to develop my MSLs. It's when you get them in place and you hire the team, of course, you want, continuity, you want great fit. But beyond that, when people are working really hard for you and they want to. And often, 99% of the time, it's like me telling them to slow down instead of, hey.
I need you to pick up the pace because they wanna do it a good job inherently. But we have to think beyond that and say, as a leader, we need to nurture that MSL's career. And I made a point of putting down looking for opportunities for professional growth. I think that starts with leadership and taking the time with your MSL and saying, hey, what are you looking for in the long game here? Yeah. Some some folks are happy and content with staying put and doing what they need to do.
But the teams and the MSLs that I like to work with are the ones that are that proactive, think outside the box, you know, let's get some ideas generated. And part of that is going back and it's the onus on really leadership to say, hey, what do you want? Where do you wanna go next? And realizing that the more diverse of a profile that you can create for yourself outside of the MSL field role, the more valuable you will be to a company, and that's just in general.
I'll I'll actually share a little information or story with you real quickly with someone that I always considered a mentor, to myself that he was a field leadership, director for Novartis and, helped build up their leadership team in cardiology. And I really just gravitated to him. He actually formed their from ground 0, their their leadership team. And he said, you know, Jeff, he says, what I look for when I, you know, promote my leaders is diversity.
I wanna see that not everybody's coming from the field. I wanna get somebody that's got managed market experience, even commercial experience, that has an appreciation of that brat background and that can contribute to our leadership team. And I think about that and it just it just it's a resounding thought because sometimes we are so eager to get in the field. We feel comfortable with that.
And I'm gonna encourage, our audience to think outside the box, investigate what other roles within pharma that they are interested in, and take that dive and take the chance because you're only going to benefit your career in the long run. And I love this one because as a you know, being a recruiter and being, you know, career development and career coach and being on this side of the equation, we're constantly trying to get people to invest in their career progression, invest in their future.
And what does that mean? That means you have to raise your hand sometimes, take on special projects, sign on for different things, and you're building your resume. If you can work on a regular basis, not maybe it's not every day, but let's just say it's weekly, monthly, once a quarter. If you can get involved in other initiatives within your organization, help out your manager on special projects, or take on additional responsibilities and initiatives, you're just investing in your career.
You're growing as a professional, and that's gonna pay dividends because all that stuff can be documented on your CV. And then you become more marketable. And to your point, you know, now all of a sudden, you can bring that diversity that you're that you're you're talking about. You're not just a cookie cutter MSL that has a certain skill set. You have a, b, and c, and x, y, and z, if that makes sense. Yeah. It does. And I'll tell you this.
I as when I build teams, I try to find MSLs that have that diversity of background and educate background because I find that they work in in a big picture. They work the best because everyone has something to bring to the table. And then as a manager, you know, your job is to pull that out. And you talked about the extra projects, the initiatives. People will want to stay and work with you and continue to receive your mentorship when you have a vested interest in the saying, hey. What's next?
And and enabling that MSL to make that next step. Awesome. Love it. So what is we're on number 9 now. Yeah. This goes back to the MSL world being very small. I will say that the earlier that you can recognize the world, the MSL world is really small, the more successful you're going to be. Because, this gets down to reputation management and creating your own brand, if that makes sense. Regardless of what company you work for, start networking.
Don't ever think that one connection is any smaller or less important than the other because you never know when that person's gonna be calling or asking, hey. Are you interested? So I think in terms of, I gave several examples. We talked a little bit about this earlier. Tom was LinkedIn, MSL Society, podcast. There are various, you know, venues to go to, to to seek out that that common theme of, hey. Listen. This is what I do.
I can't tell you even KOLs that I've had conversations with who are one of my top tier guys. We had conversations that were obviously regarding, on the medical educational side, but then I've had several stop me and go, man, you know what? What you do is really cool. You're good at it. I would love to get out of the academic world and trans, you know, transcend into into a medical affairs career. So, through those conversations, through those networks, you you pay it forward.
You give that opportunity to those that have that interest in teaching and education and, help them mentor them along the way and saying, hey. You know what? Maybe you redo it this way or this is the way direction I would start. So I think it's just it's good it's good karma, but also good advice to say, hey, you know what? This is this world is all about who you know, not what you know a lot of times. This is so important. I'm I'm 100% behind you on this, and it's so easy.
We talk about being proactive MSL. This is because of LinkedIn. It it becomes so easy to develop your professional network and to incorporate networking into your everyday life. And I think consistency is the key. Try to send out 5 to 10 invitation connection or connection requests a day. Or if you don't have time to be on LinkedIn every day, maybe you you say I'm gonna do 10 a week where you do it on weekends, and it's just really easy.
Anyone listening to this podcast right now, I challenge you. Send me if we're not if you and I aren't already connected, send me a connection request. Send one to Jeff. Say, hey. I listened to your podcast with Jeff. Thought it was great. We'd love to connect with you. I'm sure we're gonna accept it. I'm sure we have. Absolutely. So that's a perfect example right there. We're gonna I'm gonna make it easy for you. So let's move on to our last one, number 10.
Yeah. I alluded to this earlier, Tom, when we talked about creating your own identity. I don't mean necessarily even in the networking space, but really just relating vulnerability in the conversation. People wanna know you're authentic for real. They they my first trainer actually for as an MSL always told me, do not regurgitate the science and then spit it out. Right? Because you're not gonna last long in this business.
And I had to go through my lessons of hard knocks, you know, with some pretty tough KOLs, and then I got it. You know, I didn't immediately get it. And then it registered for me. And I think having, been in a leadership role, a lot of that is passing on my mistakes that I made in the field and saying, you know, I'm not perfect. And and people, I guess, just as a human race that we we all wanna know that there's there's a there are some kinks, and people don't have all the answers all the time.
There is an expectation by whatever company, whoever company you work for, that you should know the basic science. You should be able to go out there, communicate the data, get all that part. But there's gonna be times during that conversation where you're not going to have that answer. And they you know, one of the golden rules is never make it up. Right? You're gonna get called out. But part of that goes into just being vulnerable and and saying, you know what? Hey. I'm human.
I even when you're making a mistake, be upfront about it. Own own that mistake. You know? Because I think people by nature wanna know that they wanna know that person behind the title, if that makes sense. Sure. And this is this is one. You're right. This isn't taught. This isn't something that you're gonna hear people talk a lot about. But if if you can embrace your vulnerability and and to your to what you were saying, be authentic. That's when you really start to make connections with people.
That's when people start to see you as they don't necessarily see you as a title. They don't see you as a representative from a company that's there for whatever reason. They're starting to see you as a partner, as an advocate, as as a as a real person. So that this I know isn't it's not an easy one. No. This is not an easy one. This one definitely takes some effort, but I appreciate you bringing this into the equation because I think that this isn't talked about a lot.
Jason Callahan (zero zero six:fifty four): No. And you know, this can actually, you can put this into relationship with even starting your career as an MSL. And I actually, when I screen candidates for potential openings in pharma, One of the things that I like to do is I'll have the conversation virtually occur, but I'll tell the candidate upfront, hey. I want this to be an informal setting per se. You know, if it's between 1 on 1, and they're not doing a presentation or anything like that.
Because I want some of the nervousness to get lifted off, and I wanna find out where the character lies Yep. Within. And oftentimes, when I can premise that initial sentence and say, let's let's just get to know one another. Some of these questions that I'm going to ask you are not canned questions, but I just want to know where you're coming from. What's your end game? Where do you wanna why did you apply for this position? And and see if they can verbally talk me through that.
But without having all the fanfare of it being super formal because then sometimes nerves get in and you really don't get a chance to know that person. But I think if I can gauge the authenticity piece early on, even as early as your first MSL career, it will serve subsequently when you move down to further interviews. You can get to the formal part later when you're doing the presentation. But it you you wanna hold part of that in authenticity even when you're doing your presentation.
Some of the best presentations I've ever seen, Tom, you can probably agree with me on this is the ones that will go through a set of slides and will have a conversation with me and not read from those slides. Sure. I that's when I know that candidates in in a fair running, a good shot of making getting an offer. Yeah. I like your style, Jeff. I like your style. This is really, really good stuff.
You know, we've done these top 10 MSL skill list to different degrees in various types of ways, but this was a different angle. And I think that this really, you know, shined a spotlight on areas where I don't know I I know that they're the the spotlight is not often shined on.
Some, you know, obviously, I I don't think there's any real surprises on here, but I think that there's some real meat to all of this that people should take a look at and hopefully take some notes and write down and say, you know what? I I need to hone these skills. I need to focus on these things. I need to get better at this. And I think it's just gonna make people a lot better. But I I I love this, and I love your style. I love I love what you just brought to this conversation.
You're awesome. Thanks, Tom. And this is a great opportunity. I'm, again, a big advocate fan of yours and MSL talk. So, you know, I I again, a lot of these points, I've kinda learned over the school of hard knocks and time served, so to speak. But I hope that this becomes a valuable sort of, mantra to kinda take these 10 points and say, hey. You know what? We're always in a continual learning process. Nobody does this perfectly. Not not even myself after all these years.
There's always something that I can take away from someone else that's maybe doing it a little bit better and just optimize that piece to make it a fluent, great engagement. So thank you. Listen, man. You just gave some great takeaways. I learned a lot. I know a lot of other people did too. So I wanna thank you for coming on. You're the man, Jeff. I appreciate it, and we're gonna have to do this again sometime. Alright. Sounds great, Tom, and thank you for having me. Bye, man.
Thanks again, buddy. Alright. You bet. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.