Hey, everyone. My guest today is Kyle Householder, medical science liaison at Teva Pharmaceuticals. And we discussed how he landed his first MSL role and tips for anyone out there looking to do the same. So great information, awesome conversation for you aspiring MSLs out there. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Kyle. How are you doing today? Thanks for joining us.
Hey, Tom. Thanks for having me on here. I'm doing great. It's been, you know, obviously, the COVID has been an interesting time, but other than that, doing great. Good man. Good man. Well, I'm excited to have you here. I could tell you that there are a lot of people that are really interested, in hearing what you have to say. So, let's start with, you know, how are things going? I know you're at Teva now. Is that correct?
Mhmm. Yeah. I've been at Teva for just over or just coming up on a year in June. It's hard to imagine it's already been a year. It feels like just started last month. Wow. But otherwise, you know, things are going great. I absolutely love Teva and my team. I couldn't have asked for a a better opportunity to start my MSL career. That's great. Well, let's you know, I think, you know, there's so many inspiring MSL's, you know, that tune into this podcast and this is really designed for them.
So, you know, tell us a little bit go back to the beginning a little bit. If you could tell us, like, where you started out and about your degree and then, you know, kind of, you know, kind of a high level overview of, like, how you got to where you are. Yeah. Sure. Well, I mean, my love for science and medicine began real early.
And so my initial kinda going into undergrad was actually thinking about med school, but went into biomedical engineering as something that, you know, I could see myself doing if I decided I didn't wanna go on to med school. And during that, got hooked on research, and hooked on the brain, which led me into my graduate work, doing drug delivery to brain tumors.
And by the time I got done with my PhD, you know, I still, you know, have a deep passion for science and and love for medicine, but I I needed a break from the the bench. You know, the thought of my original going to a PhD, you know, industry was always my end goal, but thought it would be in research and development. But by the time I got done, the thought of, you know, another 5 years to work my way up into our management positions as a researcher just wasn't appealing at that time.
So that's when I really branched out and started looking at, you know, what else could industry where else could I fit into that roles? And that's when I came across the medical science liaison role. And, you know, everything that I read about it, you know, really seemed to fit my personality, what I love to do. I used to joke with my adviser that if I could get paid to talk about science all day, that would be amazing. And as an MSL, that's basically what I get to do.
And so, you know, was able to, say, identify that role, started learning everything I could about it, and just felt that it was the right fit. And a year down the road was able to land my first role and started with Teva. Well, I'll tell you. First of all, congratulations because it's not easy to do. You know, and, you know, second of all, like, there's so many people that want to know every detail. So let's, you know, let's kinda go back to that journey.
What's your advice on what are people should like, how does someone how does someone start out on this quest to get their first MSL job? Yeah. You know, I know a lot of people see it and, you know, think, oh, I love to talk about science and obviously the pay can be great for an MSL coming out of, academia. But I think, you know, really firsthand is learn everything you can about the role. You know, whether that's through books, you know, free resources, you know, that you provide.
Your podcast here is a great resource. Thank you. The MSL Society, Cheeky Scientist, you know, they have a lot of free resources. I think I read MSL a to z. You know, basically learning everything I could about the role. And as I was doing that, really evaluating, you know, does this fit me? Is this everything that I think that I can provide and that I'm looking for in a job?
You know, so everything from personality, skills, what experiences I had that you know, whether I can make myself marketable into that role. So that would be my first step is, say, just learning everything you can about the role and truly ask yourself, you know, is this the right role for me, or am I just being drawn in by, you know, a a pay salary or some other factor, but not really considering what it takes to be in the role. Yeah. I I that I'll tell you that's great advice.
I think that it's really, really important if there's anyone out there listening that, that is considering this for the first time or really evaluating, you know, you really need to understand what you're signing on for. How you know, are you willing to do all of the travel? Do you have the scientific background and the acumen? Do you have the communications skills? Do you want to be in a role where you're going toe to toe with key thought leaders and, you know, it's a very dynamic type of role.
So you do need to step back and ask yourself, is this definitely the best job for me? And if you could check off all those boxes, then then, yeah, then then go for it. If you have the passion and you're ready to go. So let's let's take it there. So if we're at that point where it, you know, we think that we're a fit Mhmm. So what's next? So what's next in my mind or at least where I started, was networking, networking, and some more networking.
Yeah. You know, I I think you'll hear that from pretty much anybody that's gotten into the MSL role, how key networking is. And, you know, a lot will talk about the inside referrals, which I'll touch on, but that's not the end all be all of networking, by any means. And, also, one thing I'll point out is, you know, sending a connection request is is not networking. You know? You need to start that conversation, and you need to have those conversations with people that you're networking with.
And so, you know, the networking site serves a lot of different, roles. So first and foremost, you know, it's okay to start off broad, connecting with MSLs, and that's your opportunity to really learn, you know, their firsthand accounts of what the role takes, you know, what's most important to in terms of their mind or what's, you know, they've had to rely on the most as they've gotten into the role.
It's also your opportunity to, you know, hear what their story was for breaking into the MSO role. You know, is there anything that you can glean from that to help, you know, revise your strategy, to try to get your first role?
From there then, you know, the suggestion that I give a lot of MSLs that I talk to, or aspiring MSLs, is, you know, really take a look at companies and figure out, you know, based on your expertise, what companies have portfolios and MSO roles that would fit your skills and your scientific background.
And, you know, then as you've, you know, started broad with your networking, kinda start funneling it into, okay, here's the top companies that I think would really fit my skills and expertise, and focus on networking with those people at those companies. You know, you should, by that time, have a pretty good sense of what the MSO role is. So now you get the chance to, you know, understand how do these companies specifically use their MSLs. Is there any differences?
You know, is there any different focus in terms of investigator sponsored studies on, you know, internal projects, just, you know, understanding everything you can, really how that company uses their MSLs. Additionally, you know, you get to learn, you know, what does their training consist of, You know, what does that person love about that company? What drew them to that company?
You know, at the end of the day, you want to both be prepared for, you know, your interview because you're gonna get asked, you know, why this company? Why do you wanna work for us? And just because they have products in your therapeutic expertise or they have an open role, that's not a good enough reason for why that company. So for me, Teva, you know, I had talked to multiple MSLs and, you know, they cited the amazing culture, the amazing teamwork that went on.
You know, I love that we are a big generics company. You know, we're trying to make medicines affordable for everybody. And so, yeah, there's a lot and they also have one of the longest training programs. So as an entry level, that was, you know, a benefit to me and something that really drew me towards Teva that I could get that really good training as starting out as an MSL.
But, you know, whatever the reasons are, identify what is it about that company that really is going to excite you because that's gonna come up in your, interviews. That's what you can display in your cover letters. And so, you know, say, learning everything you can about the companies and the MSL role is definitely first and foremost. And then, you know, I mentioned referrals, and absolutely.
You know, the goal end goal is to, you know, hopefully, leverage these connections in the future into referral. You know, even if they don't have a position open right now, you don't know when that changes. MSLs move all the time. Teams expand all the time. So, you know, it might be a month down the road that there's opened up.
Now you get to reach back out to that connection, really learn about that open position, and there, hopefully, you know, leverage it into that inside referral where now someone on the team is giving you at least that initial nod of, I think this person could be a good MSL. It also lets you kinda bypass some of those automatic tracking systems when you're just submitting your resume, to every open job posting. So I, you know, definitely leverage them into inside referrals if you can.
Yeah. Oh, that's huge. I mean, that's that foot in the door, so to speak, makes all the difference in the world. So, this is I mean, networking is the great equalizer when it comes to the job search and and again, getting your foot in the door. So to recap, you're saying, you know, so connect with individuals, I guess, through LinkedIn, send in, you know, connections and start the process there.
But also go after companies as you start to look at your own therapeutic area of focus and desires and interests. You go after companies, specific people at companies, get to know them, get to know the company really well so that you're prepared, you know, for an interview. You Mhmm. Know everything that there is to know. You're there for the right reasons. You can answer the question, you know, why do you wanna work at this company?
Mhmm. But then as you have these connections that you've created, you use that to get that, as you say, inside referrals. So that's like the internal referral that, you know, it's you're not you're not just applying to a position, your resume is not going into a big black hole. You actually have somebody that is is is lobbying on your behalf, so to speak. So yeah. At least, hopefully, no. Somebody's gonna look at your resume and cover letter, and it's still up to you. You know?
It's it's your personality, and it's your time to to let everything that you've learned come through. You know, you wanna go into that first interview being able to explain the MSL role as best as you can as someone who hasn't done it. Yep. You know, if you're sitting there fumbling through what is an MSL do or, you know, what would be your responsibilities in this role, You you haven't done enough preparation yet. No doubt.
And I think by doing you know, with, you know, following these steps and getting these connections and starting this dialogue, you hopefully will wind up with a mentor or 2 that can really help you and guide you. I know the Medical Science Liaison Society actually has a mentorship program which is really beneficial. But a lot of times it just becomes making a connection and, somebody that's willing to take the time to to help out.
So, so that's another benefit to, you know, to being really good at the networking game. Yeah. The other thing I'll add with the networking is, you know, it's almost like your your initial pass at the MSO job. Yeah. At the end of the day, the MSO job is networking with KOLs and building those relationships.
So, yeah, if you're dreading this networking process, if you're dreading setting those connection requests, if you're dreading those conversations, again, you know, is the MSL role really right for you? You know, I felt reaffirmed in that, and I loved every connection request that I was, you know, making, and I loved all the conversations that I had. You know, they left me energized, every single day. And so, you know, that again reaffirmed that maybe the MSO role was the right fit for me.
Yeah. No. This is I'll tell you, this is great. I appreciate you bringing this up. What other do you have any other do's and don'ts as it relates to this? I know that this is such an important topic before we go on to something else. What other advice might you have for someone that is really looking to influence on a daily basis, you know, what can I do to help my job search?
Mhmm. Yeah. So, you know, as I mentioned, you know, just setting a connection request, that's not gonna really get you anywhere. You gotta start that conversation. Mhmm. And ideally, you know, customize that conversation. Why is it that you reached out to this this person specifically? You know, is it you're interested in the company? Did you see some piece of content that they had posted? You know, they live in the same area. They go to the same school.
What's, you know, what's that connection to that person, beyond just they're an MSO? And the other thing is, you know, get in 2 ways. 1 is do definitely ask for what you need. You know? So if you're looking to connect to have a conversation about the role, you know, absolutely ask for that. You know, I get a lot of people, they reach out. Hey. Thanks for connecting. You see on their profile that they're, you know, an aspiring MSL or some sort of, you know, title like that.
But then they never follow-up or actually ask for any time. And, you know, most people, they're busy, so they're not gonna go out of their way to ask you, oh, were you trying to talk with me about the MSL role? You know, you have to take that initiative. On the flip side, be cognizant of the person that's giving you time. Too often, I get, requests that say, I'm interested in the MSL role. Let me know when you can talk about it. I'm just like, okay. Hello? Like, doing well. Thank you.
Like, you know, why am I giving you my time? You know, as as much as every MSO has been in that role of trying to break in and, you know, many are happy to pay it forward. You know, at least, personally, that's why I talked to so many aspiring MSLs because, you know, I was in that same boat, and I love to give back. But give me a reason to give back to you. You know? Don't make it seem like you're entitled to my time.
So, I mean, that would be first and foremost as far as kind of, you know, how you connect with that person. You know, the other is, you know, really come with questions. So, you know, just asking, you know, what does the MSL role or how did you break in, that's a great starting point, but you should have some other questions that you're gonna ask. You know, and honestly, be prepared to tell me what you know about the role.
You know, really think of these connections and those conversations that you're having as a two way. If you wanna get that referral down the line, you have to stand out to me as well of why should I refer you to my company. You know, so you're trying to learn as much as you can, and the way that you're gonna show some of your ability is asking those right questions or being inquisitive. You know, it's the same with KOL meetings. You you're asking for that person's input.
You're, you know, you're showing your value by keeping that conversation going and by showing, you know, your depth of knowledge to the questions that you're asking. Yeah. That's I'll tell you, that's great advice, and I'm I'm gonna pick. I'm gonna kinda go back into one thing that you said that's really important is that when you send that connection request, don't just hit the connect button. You know, send a personalized, brief, well written, well thought out note to that person Mhmm.
Just telling them why you're reaching out. And, you know, and be very gracious as you're doing it. Thank the person for their time and thank them in advance and just kind of be very delicate with their time and just, reach out with the hopes of connecting and maybe seeing if if, they might be willing to to help you.
But, that's something that I think you really need to be tactful, and you really need to be gracious with that person and thank them in advance because I'd say just like you, I get a million, requests and it some sometimes they're off putting. Mhmm. So be be tactful, and and be careful. I I get a lot of it's weird. Lately, I've been getting a lot of these these instant messages on LinkedIn or connection requests and the person just says, hi. Hi. How are you? And it and I'm like, wait.
Like, what do I do with this? Do I know this person or not know this person? Do I say hi back? Like, what am I opening up here? So, so I I I think that's really good advice. I think LinkedIn is a great place to go to network. I think it's an a very important part of your job search. I think that you should make sure you spend a lot of time not only in being active in sending out connection requests to network, but make sure that your LinkedIn profile is completely up to date.
It has all of the proper scientific information on there. It actually should completely mirror and match your resume or CV. Both of them need to be exactly the same. So let's talk about that for a second because I think that other than, you know, networking, LinkedIn, and all other stuff that we're talking about, we we it's really important to focus on your resume and what that looks like. That's your weapon.
That's your biggest weapon because that's your brand and your image that you're gonna be portraying. So what advice do you have as far as, you know, resumes and CDs? For sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, if you can leverage your networking as well into getting people to review your CV, you know, absolutely do so. You know, got lots, as you mentioned, mentors that helped, you know, really helped me refine it.
But just to begin with, you know, from ones that I've reviewed, the most common things that come up is, you know, 1st and foremost, is making it easy on the hiring manager or the HR rep who's reviewing your, resume. You know, you don't want them to have to dig through 5 pages of article publication listings and, you know, that you did, you know, western blotz and PCR and everything else in between or in vivo cell culture, in vitro cell culture, you know, whatever it is.
You know, really make sure that you're, say, making the job easy on that hiring manager and that HR rep of, you know, every bullet point that you have on there, ask yourself, so what? What am I trying to portray with this? You know, is it some transferable skill? Is it therapeutic, expertise? You know, what is it that you're trying to portray with each bullet point?
And if it's not related to one of those skills, or that area of expertise that you need for the role that you're applying, get rid of it. You know, don't make them dig through to figure out what actually makes you qualified for that position. You know, personally, I like the professional summary, you know, that kind of broad level here is what experiences and what skills that I think I possess that really fit this role.
And you're really setting that that reader up then as they look through the more, you know, quantifiable and directed, experiences down below. They're now looking for those skills and the evidence to support that you do have those skills. But at the end of the day, you know, say, it's really about hitting what are your transferable skills that are relevant to the MSO role.
An interesting thing that someone mentioned to me was, you know, if you're struggling with that, take a bunch of job descriptions, put them into a word cloud generator, and see what pops up the most. And those are the things that you're gonna wanna be highlighting or showing, on your resume. The other thing that I'll, you know, kind of highlight with this is, you know, be honest with yourself about any gaps that you might have in your resume. You know, do you have the clinical experience?
Have you interfaced with clinicians before? And really be honest. You know, is there anything that's missing that could potentially stop me from landing this role that maybe I need to look at kind of a a stepping stone or a different, kinda intermediate career before I move on to that MSO role. And if it's something minor, I like the approach of, you know, highlight that in your cover letter. You know?
For me, personally, I highlighted that I didn't have MSO experience, but I listed out and, you know, gave examples of this is what I've done already. Here's what I'm prepared to do to overcome that gap in my skill set or my that lack that gap in my experience. That's great. That's great advice. And, I I really think it's important to spend time on your resume and make sure that you are 100% representing yourself in the perfect way.
This is something that if you are questioning whether or not it's where it needs to be, then you should ask someone to look at it. Another MSL, an MSL recruiter, somebody just, hey, can you take a look at this? Am I missing anything? I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the professional summary is mandatory. I think that that is the first impression that you're setting when you put, a really good well written professional summary. It's like it's like your high level elevator pitch.
So you want that person to see exactly what it is, who you are, and what you're looking to do. One tip and note of caution is make sure you you always write in the 3rd person. Don't write in the first. A lot of people say, I I I I did this, I did that. You wanna write your whole resume or CV in the 3rd person. I think that's really important. I love your idea about the the that word cloud generator based upon job descriptions. I think that the other piece of advice I have is use keywords Mhmm.
And make sure you have keywords on your resume. You want to be searchable and found for the keywords that are equal to the medical science liaison job description. You wanna have the words medical science liaison on your resume somewhere. So, but be careful. Don't say that you're a medical science liaison if you're not. But maybe For the well, I've been in MSL, basically. No. I mean, highlight those transferable skills, but Yeah. Don't don't say you've done the role essentially.
Exactly. But I've seen it too many times. That's why I bring it up. But it's okay. Maybe I don't believe in objectives anymore. I think objectives are outdated. I think it's old school. But I like at the end of the professional summary, you state your objective. Seeking my first position as a neuroscience medical science liaison with a growing pharmaceutical firm. Something along those lines, I think is totally acceptable.
And I think you accomplish that goal of, you know, not only having a really good professional summary, but also you utilizing those keywords and you're incorporating an objective at the same time. So I think that's a really good way to, to incorporate that strategically. I think it's also important, and forgive me for for taking up your time here, Kyle. I'm running off using your podcast. I'm curious to hear your, your input.
Well, you know, I'm so passionate about this because I I I I think that this is really where people need to be perfect. And when when we're talking about medical science liaison positions, what are the two most important things? Science and communication skills. Both of those need to be on your resume. So really highlight your therapeutic area of focus, spell it out and show people I have this many years of oncology clinical research experience, whatever it might be.
And and don't skimp on those details, make sure that that's all in there. And then by the by all means, if you're an expert in oncology or neuroscience, show it and then seek out those positions, apply for those positions. You know, just because you're trying to land your 1st MSO role doesn't mean you should apply for a diabetes position when you're an oncology expert. You know, so and and I I've seen it and that's the only reason I'm saying it.
You know, the last thing is the when I mentioned communication skills and documenting it, I don't mean just the old, you know, excellent written and, you know, and verbal communication skills. You know, that that was the old way of saying that you're a good communicator. People need to see it.
You have to include your presentations, your posters, your, speaking engagements, whatever they might be, your training, that all needs to go that needs to be listed on your CV, publications, anything that you can show, your written and verbal communication skills. Put it on your CV, put it on your resume, make sure that that's on there and then you really have to when it comes time and when you interview, you have to nail it.
Like, that's really, really important because if you can't show you're a good communicator, you're probably not gonna get the job. For sure. For sure. So are you in the camp then of including publications and presentations? I am. Personally, I'm not. And, you know, more so of a I think I had a scientific communication, basically, section. Mhmm. And, you know, listing more of a a number and types that I've done Yeah. Versus listing out every single one.
Well and I I think it's it's commonplace, and I think it's okay to have 2 different versions of your your resume or your CV. Like, people have CDs, they have resumes, they have different versions. I think a lot of people ask me, well, should I keep it to 2 pages, or 1 page? Well and I think it's all relative. If you have 15 years of MSL experience, you shouldn't be trying to cram everything into 1 page or 2 pages. By the same token, no one really wants to read a 10 page resume or CV anymore.
So I think it's important to be tactful. Put everything that you really want the person to see on the first two pages. And then you can list some publications and some presentations and things like that, in either an addendum or another version. But we're talking about and I I wanna be clear. We're talking about someone who's trying to land their 1st MSO role.
Yeah. So for that reason, I think it's important to include as much as you can to show who you are and what you've been able to already accomplish in probably your short career, if that makes sense. Yeah. No. I absolutely agree. Yeah. So alright. Well, Kyle, let's last question here and I I I you've been great and and I I know a lot of people are going to appreciate this info.
So what do you say to someone who is getting frustrated and they're they're they've been doing it, they've been at it for a while, and and they've been looking and they're they're, you know, maybe losing a little hope. You know, what's your advice to those folks? Yeah. You know, been there for sure.
It it's definitely a frustrating process, especially when it's, largely rejection after rejection, and potentially not even getting any interviews yet, You know, especially early on as you're still really, you know, again, focusing in that resume, that cover letter, and really building that network. You know, at the beginning, it's really can be really frustrating with all those rejections. You know, one thing that I share with people is it's definitely going to take time.
Ask pretty much anybody across the industry. I think the fastest I've heard is about 6 months from starting to apply, and not all on that common for, you know, a year to 2 years of applying for MSL position before they land the first one. Because at the end of the day, it takes a little bit of luck, which, you know, the right position in the right territory in the right therapeutic area with a hiring manager open to an entry level MSL.
You know, things that we've talked about here help increase that luck, especially through the networking, but, you know, it it's a it is gonna take time. My advice to, you know, staying at it is find ways to quantify the progress that you are making.
So whether that's keeping track of how many people you've been networking with on LinkedIn, you know, how many drafts of your resume that you've done, how many times you've gotten it revised by people, whether that's the number of jobs that you've been applying to. You know, keep track of those things. Try to find a way to to keep yourself motivated. And at the end of the day, you know, I think it just has to be an eye on the prize.
If you truly believe the MSO role is that right fit for you, you know, trust the process, trust what you're doing, and, eventually, you'll find yourself in it. And, yeah, kids, keep yourself your eye on that prize of of where you wanna get to in life. Well, you're living proof, man. You did it. You know? You're sitting in that seat and and you did all of these things and it paid off for you and and I agree a 1000%.
I think you have to stay really positive and focused on the process and really, you know, make every effort to work at this. This is this is like it's like having another full time job. It's something that you need to work at every single day. Mhmm. Be tactful, be patient, and you're right.
It does take, takes a little bit of luck, takes a little bit of timing, it takes a little bit of who you know, but it's it's not, it's not impossible and the the jobs are out there and I think things are gonna really get better now. I think we're coming towards hopefully, we're coming towards the end of this COVID thing. I think it's it's a great time to be in medical affairs. It's a great time to be an MSL.
And I I think that there's gonna there's gonna be a lot of success stories like you coming out of this podcast. I hope so. Yeah. And so at the end of the day, think of it as a experiment, you know? Yeah. Well If things aren't working, then keep tweaking and eventually you'll find that positive result. And I'm hoping that a lot of people are gonna send you messages on LinkedIn thanking you for your advice because you helped them land their first role. That's what I'm hoping the goal is from this.
I hope some people find some, some useful tidbits out of this for sure. They will. And and thank you so much for coming on and and taking time and and, sharing this this knowledge and this information and your story. And congratulations, man. I'll tell you. You know, good for you and I wish you all the best. You're a good guy. Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on here. You got it, man. Alright. We'll talk soon. Alright. Have a good one. Take care, pal.
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