Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Angela Tom. She's a senior director of medical affairs at Orchard Therapeutics. And we talk about the value of management skills and why it's so important for MSLs. It's a great conversation. Very unique. We haven't talked about this before. Hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and check us out. Once a month, we do MSL talk live, and that's typically the 1st Tuesday of the month at 1:30 PM EST.
Times do vary, so follow the announcements and notifications on LinkedIn. And thanks for joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Angela. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm doing well. How's it going, Tom? It's going. It's going great, guys. I'm excited to have Angela here. She's one of my buddies that I see on the road.
So Angela is a frequent conference goer, and we've been talking about this for a while. And here we are. So I'm excited, and we're gonna talk about the importance of management skills. But before we do that and leadership skills. Before we do that, Angela, why don't you do an introduction and tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? Absolutely. My name is Angela Tom.
I am the senior director of medical affairs for the Americas at Orchard Therapeutics, and now wholly owned subsidiary of Kiowa Kirin. And I live in beautiful Tucson, Arizona. So I'm happy to be here, but, as Tom mentioned, on the road frequently. Yeah. And, guys, in just being respectful for Angela's time, they're they're these guys have a million things going on, so I'm just grateful for you being here. And, actually, I saw Angela last year at Mass East. We were able to get together.
So that reminds me to announce that Mass East is coming up. Who is going? Mass East is a great opportunity for you guys to join an ultimate the ultimate event for medical affairs, field medical, medical communications. It's a great chance to network with leaders across pharma for 3 days. There's focused learning, fun networking, elevate your expertise at the fierce medical affairs strategic summit east this year. It's in Jersey City, New Jersey. Dates May 6th through 8th.
And listeners of the MSL talk podcast can receive 25% off on registration by using the code. And there's no space, m s l t a l k. 25 percent off. Use that code, MSL talk. And you have to go to to register. It's medicalaffairsummit.com. So it's medaffairssummit.com. So I hope to see you guys in Jersey City. So, Angela, let's jump right into it. I guess the the first place that we should start is, how did you come up with this topic? So you brought this we talked about it.
You're like, I have a great idea, to talk about the importance and the value of management skills. So where did where did this come about? This has come about in my journey in industry. Right? So my background is in health care, as a nurse practitioner for 20 years, and I came into industry.
And I found that, you know, I've been manager and leader, in the hospital system and a manager and a leader in industry, and I found that they have very similar perspectives about people, being a player while they're a coach and not identifying them as as unique roles. Right? An individual contributor role is unique, and a management leadership role is unique. And, the frustration I found in each of those roles in trying to do both, right, because it's a very different skill set.
So it sort of comes forth through my own individual frustration in many roles that I've had. And when I am able to have an exclusively management role, how how much better I feel about what I'm doing because I I can keep it, top of mind all the time a 100% Mhmm. Versus trying to keep one mind in the, you know, what are my KOLs doing? What do I have next for my territory?
At the same time, I'm trying to look at the broad role and and keep track of what of all of my team doing, how are they integrating internally and bringing insights in, how are they working cross regionally, what, additional skill sets do I need to bring to them, what training is required to take us to the next level, all of those bits and pieces that are management, but not individual contributor roles.
Okay. So let's break that down a little bit because so you use this term, this you say management skills. So what do you mean by that? So the ability to understand each individual's contributor skill set and how to match that within a team to other skill set that will provide synergy. Right? So you don't want a team where everybody on the team has the same skill set because you lose, your ability to reach a full, potential. Right?
If you can bring a diverse skill set into a single team and they learn from each other, the whole team rises. Right? And I think being able to take a look at the whole landscape and what's needed and then the available skill sets in the the marketplace. Right? Who's available, what skill sets do they bring? And how do you bring those in and leverage them across territory, not more of a management view?
So that's a I think that's a great message for leaders, anyone that's listening, not just MSLs themselves. Leaders that are listening to this to be aware of what your team makeup is. Is it diverse? How is it diverse? Or what's lacking? What are the skill lapse, gaps maybe on your team so that when you now have an open position or if you're building a team, you're you're focused on making sure that that team is cohesive, it's diverse, and it has a combination of these skills.
Is that is that accurate? Do does this seep into the hiring process? Absolutely. 100%. And and, you know, it's been Super Bowl weekend, so, the sports analogy comes to mind. Right? So the head coach, he's not the going to be the best football player if you put him on the field. Right? Right. Yeah. But he's gonna know, do I and I don't know football that well, but he's gonna know, do I need a new tight end? Do I need a different quarterback?
In this particular game with this other team that we're playing against? Maybe the 2nd team quarterback makes more sense than the 1st team quarterback. I don't know. But but he's the overall coach being able to identify what the needs and gaps are and fill them with specific talent. Well and and that's a great way to put it.
There's another way I've heard it, and it's like, a lot of times you have a team and you assess the talent and skills of that team, and you just make sure that people know that they're or you make sure that people are on the right seat on the bus. Right. So so that everything is is working and going smoothly. And you're right. And you know what? It's funny. Like, when you look at these coaches, you know, at one point, they probably were the best player on the field, but now they're not.
Now they're best to figure out what the team needs and how the team dynamic needs to work. So you had mentioned that manage these management skills are are important, and used the word valuable. Why like, tell us why it's so valuable to have these skills. Right. So having the ability to, as you said, make a team cohesive.
I'm I'm getting ready to launch, and I, am having to pay attention to where each person is in their, sort of growth and development as an MSL and where they fit appropriately in the launch process, and and sort of not hold their hand, but pull them through. Like, connect the dots and pull them through and communicate to the internal stakeholders that, we've got this. Right? Because there's a lot of anxiety and especially in a small company in biotech around the launch process.
And so it requires both the communication field that says, you know, the east west central MSL has these responsibilities under control. And and going to the senior leadership and says, no problem. We've got it. Our centers are ready. Our MSLs are on target. Education is happening, and I know that because a, b, and c. I know that's because we've provided this skill training, because we've onboarded in this way, because we've provided, you know, these virtual trainings, etcetera.
You've been able to map it out for internal leadership, but also for the field team, making sure that you've acknowledged what their needs are and filled the gaps with whatever training is necessary and pulled it through. Awesome. You know, I'm thinking so when we first started talking, I mentioned I used 2 words. I said management skills and leadership skills, and I guess I'm kinda, you know, conflating the 2. That's the right word. Can you talk about that?
Like, what what is the difference between those two terms? Yeah. So I think they are unique, but not mutually excuse exclusive. Right? You can be a great manager of people without necessarily being a leader in the company. Right? You can pull people together for a specific task. You can identify needs in an individual and what their training is and how great communication skills and not really want that broader leadership skill.
You can also be a great leader in the company without managing individuals. Right? Mhmm. You can take on projects. You can pull them through. You can shine without really having the wants or will or skill set to manage individuals who can pull and tug in different ways. And, you know, I've met a lot of people that say, ah, I don't want that job. I don't wanna manage people. I don't wanna do that, but I love setting an example. I love mentoring individuals without managing them. Right?
There are a lot of great MSLs out there, career MSLs, that are great at what they do, and they love taking on individuals, for mentoring specific skill sets, but they don't wanna do the day to day management. They don't wanna deal with pulling through, you know, reporting up to HR or, you know, sort of the logistics pieces, figuring out how to hire or fire people, all of those things. Those are management skills that, and and it does take sort of a a special attitude towards that.
But they're great leaders. Right? But they're not managers. Right. Yeah. But then looking on on the leadership side, when you look at a team so let's just take any MSL team. Let's just say there's 6 MSLs, 8 MSLs, 10 MSLs. Typically, you might see leaders emerge from that team. Individual contributors, but may emerge as leaders or be seen as leaders.
So let's talk about that a little bit and and how important it is for individuals to be able to kind of flex their muscles if they have the leadership skills. Maybe they could be mentors for others, or maybe they just lead by example. Exactly. Exactly. The great leaders, they inspire and provide vision. Right? And that could be any individual contributor. It doesn't have to be the manager of the day. Right?
They can have long term oversight of skill development for themselves and for their teammates. Right? They can take on special projects. They can, identify, you know, the specialty that they're so interested in. So my company does MPS one.
We happen to have an MSL on our team that has a wealth of experience and knowledge around that specific disease and, is a natural leader when it comes to thinking and talking about how we work in that community, without the, you know, want or need or sort of time at the moment to be a manager. But definitely a leader day 1 in this role. Definitely. Yeah. And you see that. Some people just have it. It comes really naturally to people.
They emerge, and it's just it's a skill set that that comes naturally to them. Some others have to develop that skill, and it and it needs to be nurtured a bit. So what about the opposite? So let's say you had somebody that is an MSL, and they have no desire to get into management or to lead people. They just wanna be a good MSL. How important are the skills, whether it's management or leadership skills, for for those for those MSLs? I like that question. Great question.
So, what comes to mind is the the word of caution if when they're saying, I don't wanna manage, I don't wanna lead, I'm kind of pulling that apart, the why behind that. Right? Because we what you don't want in a team, regardless of management or leadership, is somebody working in a silo. Right?
And and not connecting to the other team members or to the internal stakeholders because, again, you'll miss out on having, you know, the highest performance that the team can have if there's not connection there. So making sure you're identifying and pulling heartless people pieces. Sometimes people are just introverts. Right? Mhmm. I'm naturally an introvert. That's why I can I can really identify with those individuals?
But understanding the why behind and maybe finding opportunities for leadership that match that personality, so that person can grow and develop into that and and avoiding any of those kind of siloed, working styles. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And then, you know, it makes me think of the folks that may be a little bit more on the junior side.
So let's talk about because there's a lot of folks that listen to this podcast that are that are a little more junior in their career, and are starting out and looking at, hopefully, being 6 finding success as an MSL. What What would your advice be to those folks as they start to develop some of these management or leadership skills early in their career so that it they can have a great, you know, trajectory later on?
Yeah. I I think in any role, first identifying what is it that you love, what it is that you love to do, what what topic, what disease state, what space, you know, where are you the happiest? And then sort of really digging into that, because you can become a subject matter expert in anything just by learning. And then you become that person that people naturally wanna come to for information, and that can grow over time and expand into different roles. I think also, bite sized pieces. Right?
Try to not take on the whole ocean, but maybe just take on the little beach that you're in, and then start expanding that into bigger and bigger, pockets of whether it's expertise in a subject matter or a skill set. We always have sort of an IT expert on our team. Mhmm. Right. Like, and and there's a lot of, innovation that can happen in those sorts of IT expertise areas. There doesn't have to be a disease state.
It can be just a a particular, way of doing things or how the team can work together or how you create strategy or, you know but first and foremost, find out what you like to do because then it just naturally will progress. Yeah. I think it's important. We all in our careers and I think whether an MSL or whether you're a CPA or a college professor, I think it's important to have an understanding of what your strengths are.
Yep. And when you have a good understanding of what your you know, what brings you energy? What are you strong in? What comes naturally to you? What's the intrinsic signature skills that you have? That should help you. That those if they come naturally to you, that means that you have the capacity to be a leader in at least those areas. You mentioned, for example, some people are just more organized than others. Some people are more technical than others.
There's always that person that's, like, the go to, you know, like, almost like the team IT guy, if you will, that's like, yeah. I'm really good with the CRM. If you have any questions, come to me. So that's a strength. So I use that as an example because I think it's important for people. It gives I think it's it gives people a lot of satisfaction and self worth, career satisfaction and self worth in knowing that you can be the go to person at something.
So I think that's a really important piece of this equation. Do you agree? I totally agree. And it's also, important to, say yes to opportunities, and expand that comfort zone a little bit, but be willing to ask for help in that process. Right? So some of us get that mindset where we feel like I have to do this. I agreed to do it. I'm gonna do it on my own, that realizing that there's an abundance of of resource available to them for assistance, right, to guide them through. Absolutely.
Yeah. So alright. So now we have an understanding of of the importance and the value of management skills. So what's next? So how do we how how do folks leverage that for their careers? Absolutely. So first of all, know where you are in the spectrum. Right? Are you, individual contributor focused on leadership but not management?
Are you a manager, who prefers to be sort of managing their team, but not growing and, you know, never gonna be a chief of whatever because they just don't wanna be at that level of leadership? Or are they somewhere in the middle where they like the leadership and management combined roles? So still figure out where you fit in this space and continue to develop that skill set where you've identified yourself, as being a natural fit.
And then moving forward, making sure in each role that you take on, and this is something where I'm working consistently at, Being really able to differentiate the roles and responsibilities. Right? You know, reviewing job descriptions to make sure well, ask questions around there. What is the responsibility here? What is the specific role? Small biotech, there's a lot of hybrid roles. So okay. Great. We we've got a couple of hybrid roles. Are they all leadership level?
Are they individual contributor and leadership level? How do we differentiate those, and and where do we wanna refine that a little bit? Yeah. And where do you see things going? You know, obviously, there's been so many changes post COVID. There's new technologies that are that are emerging. AI access is is becoming a challenge or has become a challenge over the course of the last couple years. And and we're talking about MSL skills and how to develop and grow.
So what do you think when you look at where we are now and where the MSL of the future is going? What advice do you have for them? Continuously building those new skills. Right? They're the virtual world, allows for a lot of efficiencies and and maybe time that otherwise providers won't won't give us. Right? They don't wanna meet us in person, but they'll maybe establish a virtual meeting. And how do you bridge that to a live meeting?
Because we also know that in person engagement provides something that virtual engagement can't provide with regard to connection, individual connection. I've seen in in maybe in a bigger pharma, I'm not sure it's true, but in smaller pharma, the KOLC much more willing to engage at conferences, and and use the conferences to move projects forward, collaborations forward, etcetera, more than allowing people to come into their offices.
So, leveraging the time virtually, approaching a conference, and then pulling through with some live meetings That is one, way to manage those relationships. Persistence is key, but understanding what the limitations are. Right?
And I've made the mistake of, you know, asking one too many times and and getting kinda shut down in my early in my career and and learning that, you know, you just have to respect people's boundaries and and that people that want to collaborate will meet you in the middle. And and there are just some people that don't wanna collaborate, and that's okay. You you have to allow for that in your in your space.
Well and it's you know, you you're making me think of another piece of this equation, which is emotional intelligence and and reading the room and understanding your place. How much does that play into it? Because I know that that people that have IIQ or develop that muscle and are really good, a lot of times have matured in their career a bit or have, a decent amount or a significant amount of field experience where they're able to draw upon that.
So would that fall under do you feel like that falls under this heading of leadership and management type skills? Absolutely. Emotional intelligence because it works through all of those internal stakeholder engagement, team engagement, and external stakeholder engagements for management and leadership. So it's it's very important to intentionally develop that EQ emotional quotient, through reading and activity and practice, all the way around. And that's a whole another conversation.
I didn't mean to bring that up at the very end. We're gonna start throwing it. I do plug in for my favorite book. It's called Quiet, and it's about sort of introverts and their ability to be leaders. But there's this misperception that introverts can't be leaders and, one of my favorite books. I love that. So the book is called Quiet. Do you know who the author is? I could pull it off my shelf, but Ah, no. No. I'm good to you. Check out the book Quiet, guys. And I I love that.
I appreciate, I appreciate that recommend. That happens all the time. People always ask, Tom, what book are you reading or any recommendations? So if you're an introvert, you read that book. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'll I'll tell you, there's there's actually a bunch of really good books as it relates to, that emotional intelligence, and people skills. So one of my favorites and I've spoken about it before is a book called Captivate by Vanessa Von Edwards.
I love the book, and and I've been meaning to do a podcast, book review on this. It's called never split the difference by Chris Voss. And that's a book on negotiation. He's a FBI negotiator, but it's really it's really not a negotiation book. It's a a people book.
It's it's really a good book that helps you understand how to be successful in relationships, and talks even about, practical advice for relationships, not just from a business standpoint, but a lot of the the information that I was able to get from that. But I read it, like, 3 times. I've been able to use in a lot of different capacities. So I would recommend you guys checking that out. Angela, thank you. Thanks for for, you know, taking time out of your incredibly busy schedule to talk to us.
I appreciate you you being here. Always a pleasure. Thanks, Tom. Alright, guys. Thanks for listening. Join us next time, and, appreciate all your support. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.