Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Jay Van Horn. He is a senior director of medical affairs, and we talk about the ultimate guide to an MSL 30, 60, 90 day plan. And Jay crushes this. It's awesome, awesome stuff. I think you guys are really gonna like it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. Check us out on YouTube. All our videos go up on YouTube and join us for MSL talk live, which is the typically, the first Tuesday of the month at 1:30 PM EST.
Check on LinkedIn for times and topics, and that'll be on LinkedIn live. So if you ever wanna go back and watch some of the old ones, all the recordings are up on LinkedIn live. Thanks for joining us. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. What's up, Jay? Welcome to the podcast, man. How you doing? Doing amazing, Tom. Thank you so much for having me on your program. You know, I I I wanted to always tell you this.
It's like you've done an amazing job with providing the MSL podcast, and I probably listened to, like, 75% of them. What? I'm sorry. It hasn't been a a 100%, but, you know, I'm always looking for those opportunities to grow professionally from your guests, because, you know, they they bring some great information. That's kinda what I'm hoping to do today. Well, I gotta tell you, I am so grateful that you're here. Guys, just so you know, I know Jay for a long time.
I've been trying to first of all, I tried to get the guy to listen to the podcast for, like, a year and a half. Finally, he calls you up one day. He goes, hey, man. I listened to your podcast. It's really good. I was like, dude, I've been trying to tell you, and then it took another year and a half to get him on. So, without further ado, Jay, why don't you do an introduction before we jump into this topic that I've been trying to get somebody to do for a long time?
So I'm excited to have you do this, but let's do an intro so that everybody knows who you are. Yeah. Thanks, Tom. I'm a pharmacist. I started my career working as a ambulatory care clinical pharmacist after completing my pharmacy practice residency. You know, I've had an amazing career over the last 25 years. I've worked across multiple therapeutic areas, most recently in hematology oncology. I've worked with both large and small companies. You know, it's just been amazing.
And I've said this to you in the past. I think being an MSL is the best job in the pharmaceutical industry. I I, and the fact, for me, I did that during the first part of my career and over the last 8 years or so. I've been given an opportunity to lead teams, and it's so great to to lead teams and help aspiring MSLs, help MSLs achieve their goals, because there have been so many managers that have done that for me, over my career.
I know you have a lot of aspiring MSLs that listen to your podcast. I'm really excited to try and help them and get get so that they can get one of these great opportunities for themselves. You know? And I know today, we're gonna be discussing that 30, 60, 90 day plan. What does that look like? And and one of the things I'll just start it off with, you know, we have to use that smart format. Right? Specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time bound, and we'll talk about that today.
Yeah. But, you know, it's it's it's not so much important that you put a plan together, but you kinda have to kind of look at what you're doing, how you're doing it, so that you're achieving those goals over over, you know, that first 30, 60, 90 days. Awesome. I can't wait, man. I'm excited. I told you guys this is gonna be good. So, real quick, before we start, I have to do a shout out for our friends in Thailand. So we broke into the top 10 in rankings, in the careers category in Thailand.
So I wanna thank you all for listening. Also wanna wish the MSL Talk Podcast happy anniversary because right about now, it's 3 years since we started this broadcast. So happy anniversary to us. And who better person than Jay Van Horn to be on for the 3 year anniversary? It all it only took me a year and a half to start listening, but like I said, it's there's such valuable information. So you know Better late than never, man. Better late than never. Is is great.
Yeah. And I've had people request this topic. I mean, MSLs, aspiring MSLs, MSL leaders even, will be able to learn from this. So when someone is asked to put together a 30, 60, 90 day plan, whether it's for an interview or maybe it's someone who's in a leadership capacity or it's an MSL that's helping out a a supervisor in some way, where would you say they should start? What's the beginning?
You mentioned the smart format, but, I'll let you, in your own words, talk about if you had to give somebody advice on how to do this, where do they start? Yeah. I mean, I I think it all starts with the job description. You know, I I think by starting with the job description, you're gonna know kind of the the the minimal roles and responsibilities that that that they have to get to.
I have used the and have requested and, actually, I have myself put together a 30, 6, to 90 day, plan together when interviewing or preparing for a position.
I I think it's really important for especially, aspiring MSLs, you know, as a hiring manager or potential hiring manager, you know, whether they're asked to do it or they do it independently, I think as they go through the steps and those things that we'll talk about today, it'll help put in the perspective of what they need to do at a minimum, which is a job description, to to be successful in their new position. More recently, just one quick side story.
I did have, we we had a position for a recent company that I worked for, and I had all 3 candidates put together a 30, 6, 90 day plan because I thought it would be good. And this was for a, associate director level position for national and prioritized accounts, and it was great to kind of see how they were gonna approach the position and the things that they were looking to achieve during those 1st 90 days and kind of the steps that they were gonna take to get there. So you asked them to do it?
Well, let me I did for that particular one, but I think, I've done it for myself. I think whether somebody asked you to do it or you do it independently, especially, I would think for an aspiring MSL, if you start if they start to put together their thought process of all the different things that need to be achieved.
I mean, it's really simple to look at the job description, but, you know and we'll talk about kind of what you're gonna be doing in the 1st 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, and how you might go about doing that. So before we get into that, so now you ask people to do it, but you're what you're saying is that people should be proactive in the interview process and say, hey. You know what? In preparation for this interview, I put together a 30, 60, 90 day plan that I wanna share with you.
Is that something that they put together in writing and they bring it? Do they just talk about it, or do they do both? Like, how does that work? Yeah. I probably would not say unless I was asked, I probably wouldn't say that I had done it. But I think as part of the preparation for having the conversation. Yeah. And, you know, you've kind of had that initial conversation with with HR or recruiter. Yeah. So you've kinda got your foot in the door.
But as you prepare to have that conversation with the hiring manager, I think to put something together because if, you know, especially you're talking to aspiring MSLs, you don't know what they do know. They don't know if they've listened to your podcast. You don't know if they've gone to, some some workshops.
You don't know what they what they do know about being an MSL, and I've been in those situations where, you know, it's like you know, I've asked folks, so what what do you think you're you're gonna be doing, you know, during the the first, you know, couple, 2, 3 months that you join the organization? And you you don't wanna respond, well, I'm gonna go through training. Yeah. Right. Of course, you're gonna go through training, but what do you think that looks like? Right.
And and then the other part of that is, you know, what do you think you're going to need to do to transition out into the field? Right? What are some of the things you'd like to do, to to transition and be prepared to go out into the field? No. I think this is great. I think that's awesome advice.
I think that it just shows that you can't lose by putting this together, get it together, and either bring it up and refer to it during the interview or be prepared for somebody to ask you a question where you can throw this in. So let I really I'm dying to get into the nuts and bolts of this. So what does the first 30 days look like? And what should they include so that people will look at that and say, wow. That was a really insightful first 30 day plan or insight into the plan.
Yeah. Actually, the first 30 days is to me is not that big a deal because the first 30 days is simply very structured. Right? Okay. You know, I I know one of the things is like, you know, what do you do? I mean, I it could be put in a Word document. It could be put in an Excel sheet. If I plan on presenting it, I wanna put it in a PowerPoint. So there are different formats, to put together.
But, you know, the other thing I just wanna mention as well is, you know, and and I and I I've said this in the past is is I want MSLs to be the CEO of their regions or their territories. Yep. Well, the only way to be the CEO and take ownership is to have a plan. Right? It's not somebody else's plan because the managers aren't out there every day working with them. Right? They're out there letting their folks do the jobs that they were hired to do.
And when an individual takes ownership of that, territory or region, I mean, that's that's really ultimately what I wanna see. So, really, during that first, you know, 30 day our first, yeah, 30 days, I mean, the 1st week is really a lot of administrative stuff. Right? So, I mean, you don't really necessarily need to go into detail about that because, you know, of course, you're gonna have a conversation with your manager. You're gonna have a conversation with HR.
They're They're gonna be sending you a bunch of documents and things for you to complete and sign off. And, you know, you're gonna get your company email, and you're gonna get access to the corporate portal. And so, really, it's office setup and getting, you know, that setup really the 1st week or 2. The next couple of really, the next, to me, the next 2 to 6 weeks is all about disease state and product training. I mean, at a minimum, you know, everybody should know the package insert. Right.
You know, what is the data that supports the package insert? And then you start to learn more about the the clinical trials. You know, you could be also learning about the competitive landscape, if that company has HUR, real world evidence data, they have pipeline. But, you know, if you go back to that job description, what does the job description say you're gonna do? Is it gonna be a focus on KOLs? Is it gonna be, within that spectrum? Are you gonna be focused on institutions?
Do you have any, what I'll call, market access responsibilities? Are you gonna go out and do payer presentations and the IDNs and GPOs and pharmacy directors? Of course, if you might be doing some of that, you're gonna, you know, need to be aware of the HUR rule or the evidence data. You know, are you gonna be supporting, clinical development, doing pipeline presentations?
And so, you know, that's all gonna be somewhat dictated in the job description, but it also starts to get you to think about all the things you can be doing in preparation for that first 30 days. There's a lot to do, but but, really, that's the most structured part of, the the first 30 days is gonna be dictated by the company. And would you say that when someone puts this together, should they be extremely detailed? Does it make sense to go real detailed, or do you they go high level?
I would imagine you have to do some level of detail. Because if you go too high level, it doesn't really doesn't tell them anything. So I would imagine that you're whether it's PowerPoint, Word document, or an Excel spreadsheet, you're gonna have to list out some detail. Is that do you agree with that? I think listing out some deep I mean, I like to list out detail because I like to be very structured in what I do and and and, you know, and make sure I don't forget anything.
You know, the other part of all this is, you know, there's detailed in the in that first 30 days. But the other big part of of this 30, 69 day plan is the the strategy, around how you're gonna communicate across the organization. What are the individuals that you're gonna need to chat with and meet and be introduced? And that's gonna occur during the the kind of the end the I like to do it towards the end of the 1st 30 days and then, you know, as you go into the the the second month.
So you're gonna say things like you're gonna list so get get just unpacking what you just said in the 1st 30 days. You know, don't do this. Don't just say complete training in the 1st 30 days. What you wanna do is you wanna go into more detail, show how you're gonna go above and beyond, and talk about things like, you know, you know, fully understanding and studying and researching the package insert, understanding the competitive landscape through research and whatever else.
And then list all those things that you had mentioned depending on what it says in the job description. And then at the end towards the end of the 30 days, proactively, connect with internal counterparts to introduce myself and develop internal relationships with, you know, commercial counterparts, market whatever it might be, managed care, whatever it might be. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So so, 1st week, administrative. Weeks after that, you you can start to go into disease state.
So if it's a new therapeutic error for you, you start to say, well, you know, I've taken the opportunity to to to read the NCCN guidelines relative to to the management of a particular disease state. You can list off, the number of clinical trials that they've done, you can, that are published, that you've read those. And it's like, you know, I'd love to learn more about these clinical trials.
You can go on clinicaltrials.gov and see the trials that they've completed as well as the ones they're doing. Right? So you kinda have an idea of the of the direction that they're heading in. And so that also gives you a good perspective. It's like, you know, what are you specifically gonna be doing, in your this new position? Because that's always the question. You know, there are there are companies out there that will tell you how to do it, when to do it, and how many times to do it.
But but you want also individuals to be more entrepreneurial and and wanna be, you know, lifelong learners. So they're out there going and getting the information on their own as they consider this opportunity, with this new company. Yep. Got you. Okay. So let's talk about the the the next piece, which would be the from the next 30 days, which would be from 30 to 60.
Yeah. So so that's where, you know, you you as I was mentioned, during the 1st 30 days, you wanna start set up meetings, but during that 2nd month, start to have meetings. So, you know, within medical affairs, you know, you have the VP of medical affairs, you have medical directors, you have medical information.
You could have our operations person who is supporting you, doing investigator sponsored trials, unrestricted educational grants, but they're the person that kind of everything that's nonclinical helps you do your job better. They're a great resource to you, and the majority of companies have individuals like that. Now you could have an HUR liaison. Of course, you wanna, be aware of pharmacovigilance. It's not just AE reporting.
It's it's also, you know, making sure that any untoward effect is reported, of a drug because that that is is reportable. A lot of people don't realize that. You know, if they have a nurse educator team, you wanna chat with them. If they have a medical affairs market access liaison, right, do they have responsibility? Do they have somebody that that does that? So that will also help for you to understand the, kind of, the market that they're in. And then last, you know, clinical operations.
You know? Probably 75% of the companies I've worked for in the past, I have not worked directly with clinical operations. About about 25% of the companies I have, and so, you know, will you be supporting clinical operations, doing site evaluations, and things like that? But a lot of that's gonna be within the the job description. And then the other part I'll just briefly mention is the commercials. So interaction with commercial are strictly dependent on a company. Right?
And we know how to do things. Right? But, you know, regional sales director. I mean, I I think meeting the regional sales director, maybe jumping on their team call and being introduced, But, you know, you need to follow whatever the corporate guidance is as far as, as it relates to to working with commercial, as well as the market access team. You know, you've got regional account managers and key account managers and field reimbursement managers.
But, you know, that's a great time during that 2nd month to to build this relationship and then also start to figure out your territory plan. So you've kind of been the through the disease state and product, information, you're kinda wrapping that up, and now you're starting to look at KOLs. Right? You know? A lot of companies will provide a list and, you know, to but if they don't provide a list, a lot of that information, you can go out and get on your own as well Yeah.
To to start to transition into that because that second month is where you're focusing on, you know, who are the KOLs? You know, are they a tier 1? Are they a tier 2? What are the key institutions? What are the key, national and regional meetings? And so you're starting to to start to figure out your plan so that, usually, by the end of the second month, start of the 3rd month, you're starting to think about setting up a, a plan to get out into the field.
Yep. Yeah. Well and that's what it's that's really kinda what we're getting at. Right? So the 1st 30 days is a lot of administrative, a lot of research. You're figuring a way around. You're getting through onboarding. You you're getting through training, scientific. You know, you're getting all that science down. And then you're getting familiar with the players, so you start to develop a strategy. And then after that, I'm assuming that the next step is to get out into the field.
So would you say that after the 1st 60 days, people be should be prepared to and need to document in this plan the KOL engagement piece, or am I jumping too far ahead? Yeah. I mean, I I think research in the KOLs, I mean, before you as as anybody evaluates a a new opportunity, I I think, you could easily put together a list of 20 of the top individuals within your area. Right?
You look at the publications, you look at, you know, the folks that have, that are part of the guidelines, for that therapeutic area. You look at clinicaltrials.gov, You look at national and regional conferences, kind of the the information from the past to see who's presented on a particular topic. Then you start to go to the major institutions within your geography. You go to the department website, and then you start to look at, you know, who focuses on what within that department.
And then at the end of the day, you're starting to formulate, okay. As I've learned about the strategy for that company, how do I execute on that strategy, and who do I do it with? You know, whether it's a KOL, whether it's an institution, whether it's a a conference. You know, those are the big buckets, initially, because, ultimately, it's about executing on a strategy and the clinical insights that you either reinforce. Hey. Here's the strategy.
Here's the insight that supports that strategy, or are you finding out new insights that maybe you need to change the strategy? Because, ultimately, it's about bringing value to not only the the KOL, but it's also bringing value back to the organization, and that's through clinical insights.
Right. So I'm gonna take a pause here for a second because I'm assuming that before you get to the interview where you would be in a situation where you need to either discuss this or present this, there's gonna be interviews beforehand. Maybe it's an initial phone interview with with you, or with HR. What questions would you say people need to ask in early interviews to help prepare them to put this together? Well, I mean, there's a lot of questions there. It's like, is it a new company?
Is it is it a new company who's launched a product? Is it an older company? There's a lot of information, that you can can get on your own. I think the, you obviously have the job description. And so to me, it's asking insightful questions. Yep. Around, the expectations of the position and, actually leveraging some of the research that you've done beforehand and share with them, how you might be an asset for the organization. Right?
Yeah. You know, is you know, I've been in situations where I've talked to candidates and it's like you asked us, like, so why do you wanna join the the company that, that that I'm currently working for, and do you have a position? Yeah. Well, you know, I need a job. Yeah. I I need a job.
And if you you start to you know, if they've taken the time to read the the their their financial statements to look at how the company is doing, the direction that the company is headed in from a from a product as well as a pipeline presentation. It's really, gaining some insights into what they, are looking to do over the next, 1 to 2 years. Yeah. I think that that's, you know, I think that's kinda what I'm getting at.
Like, I think it it's totally inbounds and expected that in an interview, you ask questions like, hey. What are you looking for in this candidate? Can you describe the ideal candidate for this position? Or what are the some of the most critical factors for this m MSL as they head into this territory, or what are some of the critical issues that this this MSL might face in this territory?
You know, or what information can you share with me about this specific territory that might be able to help me as I think about this position? So I think if you ask some really good open ended questions about really kind of specifically about the territory, what what the the the desired candidate or ideal candidate looks like, you could start to piece together some of this by almost asking for the answers to the test. Does that make sense? Yeah. It makes complete sense.
I I think the other thing I just wanna briefly mention is it's also important to ask about the culture. I mean, I I think I think Yeah. That asking about the corporate culture, the team culture, and kind of what they're looking for in the next individual because, you know, you know, I've worked on many teams over the years, and so, you know, you you you want a diverse team. Diversity comes from education. It comes from a lot of different places. It also comes from experience.
You know, you could have a team, that has some very experienced MSLs and some and and some aspiring MSLs, and so you always want that mixtures of individuals. And so you can start to gain some insight as you think about the culture of the company, the culture of the team, and kind of how this individual might fit within that culture because, ultimately, you know, it's the culture that brings teams together. Exactly.
Yeah. And some companies are really, really specific about their culture, core values. They put it up on their website. They talk about it. It's a mistake not to look for that information. It's a mistake not to talk about it or at least ask about it. So I'm glad you brought that up. The other thing that you mentioned that I wanna get back to is that there are variables that exist in this that you have to keep in mind. What's the size of the company, the therapeutic area?
Are those all things people need to start to consider? Yeah. I you know, it's been my experience with with larger organizations. Things tend to be more structured. Right? Mhmm. Mhmm. And and that's just because you you wanna treat folks the same and and equally across organizations, so things typically are more structured. With smaller companies, you know, there there is structure, but it's more entrepreneurial.
And so, you know, looking for individuals, especially in smaller organizations where I've spent the last half of of my career, folks that have that entrepreneurial nature to kind of, you know, be really good at their day job, but then, you know, and we had talked about this, but as they start to close out, you know, the the initial training period, how do they get involved in projects? Right? What what what do they think? And the things I've asked candidates in the past is like, okay.
I know about professional development. Right? What about personal development? What what are some areas that you want to grow in, and gain experience? And I always make the caveat that you gotta be really good at your day job, and then, you know, what are some things that we can get you involved in and grow you personally, within your career? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I think that that, you know, that people always wanna know that.
They always wanna know that there's someone who has both the professional and personal interest in mind that they are balanced, well rounded. They have a do what it takes attitude. And, you know, and they wanna grow with the organization, but also personally. Getting back to this the idea of doing this plan. So let's just say that you're tasked. Like, you know, you're not doing this just to go in and be prepared. You were asked to do this. So Jay Van Horn is is the hiring manager.
You're interviewing. And you say, okay. Before your your final interview, we need you to come in and prepare a 30, 6, 90 day plan. You just gave really, really good information, probably too good. I might not even release this episode. I think it's too good. It's too good. So aside from that, do you does it make sense for that that candidate to maybe reach out to colleagues or maybe if they know somebody in the organization or maybe they reach out to, let's say, there's 8 MSLs on the team.
Is it out of bounds for that candidate to reach out to one of the MSLs and say, hey. Wanna see if I could pick your brain for an in informational interview and then maybe see if that person can help share insights on the culture, expectations, or is that taking it too far? That's a tough one. That's a tough one. I mean, I I think, I I think it definitely can be beneficial. There's no doubt about that. Yeah. But but there's there's yeah.
I guess it all depends because you don't know what questions are being asked. Yep. You know, if you ask a question, does that mean maybe you don't know what you're asking, but then starts to questions the whether the the candidate is a good fit? You know? And so I I think, you know, what I've done in the past is do a lot of research on individuals on LinkedIn, kinda see what their areas of interest are, you know, go to, the corporate website to to learn about folks.
I I think you can reach out to folks, but it's it's it's, I think, really tricky, especially in today's environment, because you just don't know. You just don't know. It's a slippery slope. You gotta be careful because if you reach out to somebody and they take it the wrong way or if you annoy someone and they say, oh, that person's interviewing or let's say that person's now all of a sudden, that MSL is on the interview panel.
Yeah. You know, like, oh, this person reached out to me and, you know, whatever. So, you know, I I've known people to do it. That's why I'm bringing it up because I've known people to do it, but I don't know if it's always the best advice. Yeah. I I can't say that that I've done it, but I what I can tell you, I've done you know, I typically do a lot of research. And if somebody knows somebody, you know, you know, I might chat with them to say, hey.
I I see that you're connected with this person, and and, you know, is there anything I'm gonna be interviewing with them next week. Is there anything you could share with me, that, you think would be beneficial to me? I I think that's completely within scope. You know, I I think it could be okay to to reach out, but I, you know, I think you might wanna do a podcast on that specifically to say Yeah.
If you do this, these are some of the the lessons, that we've learned over time from individuals who've done it. Yeah. You know, and and I'm just kinda hesitant because I haven't done a lot of that. So I'm really careful to give advice, because I I don't wanna give the wrong advice. Yeah. No. It's definitely a slippery slope. So what as we close this out, what other, like, last pieces of advice would you give people to make them stand out?
So this this is not totally uncommon that people are asked to do a 30 6 to 90 day plan. In your experience, which ones typically stand out to you? You know, the ones that stand out, you know, I was thinking about the the question. It's like, should you know, a lot lot of companies do clinical presentations. Right? Yeah. And, really, the purpose of having somebody come in and do a clinical presentation is can they stand up in front of the audience and give a a presentation?
You know, after kind of, putting my thoughts together around this podcast, it's like, I I think it would probably be appropriate what they're gonna do during the first 30, 60, 90 days. Right? You know, who are the KOLs? Yeah. Who are the institutions? Are there patient advocacy groups? You know, what are the all the different things to to think about as you transition out to the field? And and I you know, that's that's the biggest part, I I think, is to to come prepared.
You know, one of the things I do that people don't talk about is if the the company is publicly traded, I'll go in and read the their their annual report, or look at the annual report presentation because, you know, there's, I did get my MBA. I can say one of the benefits of getting my MBA is is understanding what a 10 k is. But there's, you know, the everything's disclosed, within there.
So if there's challenges with clinical trials, you know, it's it's things it's it's kind of the scientific acumen as well as the business acumen. Do they understand? Because at the end of the day, you know, pharmaceutical companies are businesses. Right? Yep. And and, and and within their financial reporting, it it outlines the the the challenges that they're having as well as the steps that they're taking to be successful.
And so that's like another thing that I look at, because, you know, you you wanna see, how well, you know, a product is doing, and that's disclosed with within those documents. And I think that, could potentially, set you apart as well as just having a really good understanding of the therapeutic area, the the the top KOLs, kind of what's how they're positioned within guidelines.
Now one of the things we haven't talked about as we close-up is reaching out, I think, reaching out to some some some KOLs or some some folks within that therapeutic area Mhmm. To find out more information about what they think about that company or that product is something I I think that I've seen in the past and, could be beneficial. Yeah. I mean, if you're in a position where you have relationships or or you can do that, I absolutely think you should.
I also think that it's just in getting back, I I've said this before. I'm gonna say it again. I think it's just really important to ask good questions. Ask good questions early and often. Make sure that you're really super inquisitive, and you show the organization that you either are a good MSL because of your engagement skills, or you can be a really good MSL because of you. Because that's what being that's what MSL ing is all about, is engagement. There's a scientific piece of it.
We all know that. But the real crux of it is the engagement portion of this and being good at that. That this all falls in line with that. Do you agree? Absolutely. I mean, when, like today, we've been chatting for 35 minutes. I don't I don't know. I this seems like we've been chatting for 5 minutes.
But, you know, if you're talking with a hiring manager, if you're talking with a KOL, if you're talking with a colleague, and and you have that back and forth conversation, and the the reason you're doing that is because you've done your homework. You're prepared. Right? Where did the time go? We showed mutual interest, and then you walk away with, hey. You know, there's a great conversation today.
Would love to chat with you, you know, in a month or so, right, and follow-up and chat about something. I mean, that's what being a good MSL is, is to is to take that conversation and that engagement to the next level and, you know, ultimately bring insights back to the company. You know? Liam, man, this went fast. You know why? Because you're so easy to talk to, Jay. You're easy to talk to, Tom. I'm a genius for having you on. You you made me look good.
So, guys, if you got value in this, please share it. I I think this is an awesome, awesome episode. Jay, thank you again. I appreciate you coming on, man. No. Thank you for having me on. I I'm sorry it's taken so long. And, I truly regret that, it it took me so long to catch up because this this is a great podcast, and I think there's a lot of value in it. Well, we did it, man. And thank you guys for listening. You all have an awesome rest of your day, and, join us again soon. Thanks, everybody.
Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.