Hi, Joy. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Tom, and thank you for letting me be with you today. I can't wait. Guys, I am so excited to have Joy on this podcast. We've known each other for a very long time. I'm not gonna tell you how long, but it's a very long time. We're colleagues. We're friends. We've done great work together, and she is someone that I truly, truly admire. In her contribution to this space that we're in, the medical affairs and clinical affairs space, she is an icon.
So, Joy, why don't you do a quick introduction just to tell everybody kinda who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? Thank you, Tom. Thank you for those nice words. And, yes, we've been friends and colleagues and and, you know, in business insights for, as you say, a very long time. I've I've always cared a great deal about the clinical side of the business. I really think it is the brick and mortar, if you will.
And you can see now from different, organizations, particularly McKinsey, who begins to write a great deal about the importance of MSLs. If you look way back, I was interviewed by PharmaVoice asking, you know, if did I think MSLs were real important to, you know, brand support? I said then, as I say today, not only are they important, but they're pivotal to the success of brand, but more importantly, to patients and patient outcomes.
Yeah. And, guys, just so you know, PharmaVoice, I don't know what it is now, but at one point, that was it. Like, that was Yes. The right? That was the resource. That was, you know, really a big deal. So we've come full circle. Joy had this idea. I think we talked about this first at MAPS, and she, you know, really talked about the idea of the strategic MSL versus the scientific MSL.
And I think at that point, Joy, you had mentioned that there's a gap, that there's a real gap with MSLs that are more focused on the scientific side versus the strategic side. Can you just talk about that piece of it and why this is so important? Absolutely, Tom. We know that MSLs come with a deep scientific background. We search just as you do, you know, to look at that PharmD, MD, PhD, and nurses who have, you know, spent time getting their master's or focusing in the scientific area.
It makes them exceptional at the data dissemination. But where I see the gap is in the transitioning of that knowledge into strategic value. What does this data really mean for the health care ecosystem? What does it mean for patient outcomes? For formulary decisions, strategic MSLs go beyond the what. The science says and ask, and they do, so what, and now what? Yep. And and you also said that MSLs need to achieve dialogue versus monologue. So can you talk a little more about that?
Yes. I wish I had coined the phrase, but I kinda stole it, to be honest with you, and I absolutely love it. Too often MSLs show up to present rather than to engage. We have to remember that every stakeholder, be it a KOL or a payer or or even an investigator, has context that we may we may not even see. Our goal should be able to create the space for two week really two way conversations. That means asking questions, listening actively, and building on shared insights.
This is where fluency actually occurs in that ability to create that dialogue, not just in the science, but really in the people themselves. And that's where it comes into play more of a strategic value than just really, you know, a presentation value. So why do you think this is so common? Why do you think that MSLs become more science focused and for lack of a better term, wind up data dumping more than taking the strategic angle? Well, it's what they've been trained to do. You know?
And it's the academia rewards. It's the mastery of the content. It's not influence. It's adaptability. When MSLs enter the field, they default to what they know and they're comfortable with and that's sharing information. We often call it scientific exchange. But we need to reframe success as impact, not input. It's not how much you know, it's what you help others to understand and to know and to what to do with it.
So now what obviously, we're we're talking about and like there's this there's this gap and maybe it's because that's the way they were trained. But what if I don't know. What if that's part of just their personality or their skill set? How does somebody develop the soft skills needed to to upscale, get to it, the level where they need to to be more strategic and to have that that dialogue? What's your advice and recommendation for people looking to develop that muscle?
It soft skills can be taught, but it must be intentional. It's not something for all people that comes natural, but it starts with curiosity. And MSLs are curious. They're curious about data. They're curious. And all of them have that genuine curiosity about another person's perspective. What do we look for in soft skills? We look for that clarity. We look for individuals to be concise, that impact that we're talking about. We're talking about engagement, not just showing up.
And we're also talking about their use of visual aids, the fluency to go back and forth. So if people really want to change, they need to think about their ability to utilize that. Very often they have 30 slides that have been prepared by their MLR and their organization. They need to practice open ended questions and role play actively listening with feedback. Many organizations will help them with that.
And I think, you know, if you look at it, coaching and emotional intelligence, most of all, just being a great communicator and modeling that behavior will help people to create confidence and poise. So think of people that you listen to and I listen to. It's their presence when they come into the room. They command that presence. So all of those things become natural soft skills in which we can help MSLs grow into. Yeah. And, you know, it's as as you're you're talking, it's making me think.
We all kind of we emulate. We admire certain people for their skills, their talents. I'm a big Joe Rogan fan. I was a Joe Rogan fan before I had a podcast, and I think part of the reason that I've conducted the show the way I do is because of him, his approach, his style, the way he asks questions. I think it's I think it's important for MSLs to be trained by the right people and to be able to develop this muscle the right way.
Whenever you hear about, learn about, talk about emotional intelligence and soft skills, it's all about active listening and asking the right questions. You just alluded to it. So what would you say are the most important questions MSLs typically should be prepared to ask? So very often, instead of asking what do you think of our data, which is a very typical question for an MSL, you might wanna consider what challenges are you seeing in the patient population you're treating right now?
I want to look to see, you know, what are those commonalities and what is the physician at the point of care actually having to deal with? What gaps consist between guidelines and real world practice for you? So you see the guidelines, particularly if you're an oncologist, it's riddled with guidelines. But what's the real world data? What are patients? What are those patient challenges? And where do you wish the industry might listen more and listen more to to you?
These type of questions, I think, sort of unlock context, and that's where strategy lives. Yeah. Yeah. I think you gotta you gotta put the KOL first. Put the KOL needs first. We talk about that a lot on this podcast.
And, I think there is the tendency to follow and the strategic objectives of the organization, obviously, we know are are important, but to really get into more of that open ended, let me find out about this KOL, be a problem solvers, put their needs first, and then I can get into my strategic objectives. But we talked about and I wanna get back to the active listening piece Yes. Because it's so important. So let's talk about that a little bit.
And from your experience, how can someone do that well? What's your advice to folks in how to be a good listener and use that as a kind of almost as a weapon? Well, active listening is just more than hearing words. We can all do that. It's really tracking meaning. It's listening for a flexion and tone. It's emotion and subtext. So you really have to be sharp. And paraphrasing what you heard, pausing before responding, very often I will hear MSLs, and, again, it moves to that monologue.
When you have a dialogue, you tend to resist the urge to jump in, with a solution. You continue to listen for the context. MSLs can improve that capability through coaching, through feedback, and through self reflection, which I would recommend. Record yourself and listen back to yourself. What did you miss? What could you have heard differently? I think those are always good things to think about in terms of active listening.
Yeah. And when you get that down, you you become a much more effective MSL, not just with your external stakeholders, but if you can take that skill and use it internally as well, that's really important. And I what you just said, I think, is something we all probably can do a little bit better because we're so trained in the narrative. So looking at the ex experienced or even even someone who's a newer MSL that has the propensity and wants to be the scientific expert.
Yes. You wanna be the scientific expert. You wanna be that that go to scientific resource. But at the same time, you wanna be a strategic adviser. How do you balance the two? Well, you can't be that person until you have the ability to create trust, and you've been able to demonstrate that you are, in fact, a collaborator. You earn that right to influence by, you know, having that credibility. And you earn that right to partner, both to your point, internally and externally.
Strategic MSLs don't just share data. They do more than that. They share foresight as well as insight. They connect the science to a broader impact, and they become credible through those kinds of discussions and relationships. The trust piece, I think, is I think that's next level. I think that that trust is something that happens over a period of time. It Yeah. You know, it's you don't just walk in and have trust. You have to it has to be created, developed, nurtured.
It's part of the emotional intelligence piece. It's part of the relationship building piece. And that's what we're talking about here. That's that's what is that's the gap. That's what I think needs to be developed more. You had mentioned, though it sounded like you mentioned that there's a training need here. So do you feel like companies are not training their MSLs on the emotional intelligence piece enough? And if so, kinda what's your advice? I think what's missing are those human skills.
Think every organization sees its responsibility, particularly on the onboarding, to go disease state deep and and very deep dives, where they tend to lack, in the early training is around the human skills. Organizations should start, I think, with with really mindset training, what it means to be influential rather than informative. You know? Add experiential learning situation. Add field coaching mentorship. And finally, if nothing else, measure it. What you measure, you know, is your value.
Most organizations do value based training. And, you know, what happens is people have different definitions for value based training. It won't happen to your point, Tom. It doesn't happen, you know, the minute you walk into an MSL role. Most of these MSLs function at a very good level, but you wanna take them from good to great.
And the way you take them from good to great is really to focus on, you know, that confidence, that poise, that insightfulness, that ability to be able to adapt, to listen for the context, that's how you go from good to great. Well and I think that that's right there, that's that's the key. But at the same time, what how would you how does somebody go from good to great to top performer?
Is there, you know, is there kind of a hierarchy and, a developmental life cycle that an MSL needs to go through? Like how do they get from one level to the next? Well, fortunately, I'm in a position to coach, you know, field medical teams and leaders. And I've always said that the top MSLs are really more translators than they are integrators.
They can decode what the stakeholder is saying and and, more importantly, what they're not saying and bring those insights back to their cross functional partners to shape their strategy. I think also we have the ability, if you will, to help the MSL understand what it is that they can see and see around the corner more importantly and not be afraid to help the KOL that they're talking to to get to those insights around the corner. They don't want to wait to be told what to do.
They ask what's needed. Most of these MSLs who have that credibility, have that insight, they can just go ahead and work with their KOL and make it happen. I mean, it's it it sounds, probably a little bit easier than it is. Because you but it but it you're right. Everything that you're saying is right. And I think that there's the best MSLs, the top performing MSLs have the relationships, but they bring back credible insights, actionable insights.
And that's one of the things that we hear so much about is the importance of being able to generate and bring back insights. There's a lot here. You're you're there's this isn't this isn't this is all next level stuff. You're talking about you know, you mentioned curiosity. You mentioned adaptability. You imagine match you mentioned this this, you know, this strategic MSL. So how does let's talk let's talk to leaders about this.
How do they foster a culture and an environment of these types of MSLs? Well, starts with celebration and that is to help MSLs, particularly new MSLs that are coming on board, so that they celebrate wins with them. As they work with them in the field and as they, you know, help them with mentoring and coaching, it's important to celebrate, you know, good behaviors and behaviors that lead more to impact and insight so that the MSL begins to travel that path and make that transition.
Leaders must model curiosity. They must reward questions over answers, and they need to create psychological safety for learning. It's important for them to create the culture and the opportunity for MSLs to learn without the fear of it's gonna sit on my performance appraisal or I it didn't go well today.
Peer learning and forms is important for leaders to create debriefs and real time coaching at that are tools that I would recommend to use and build so that the mindset of my team itself creates a culture of trust and transition and growth. Yeah. I hope that, that that message gets through because I really this this podcast isn't just for MSLs, aspiring MSLs. It's for leaders too. And I talked to a lot of folks that are like, hey. You know, we really are trying to get our MSLs to the next level.
Can you do more, you know, episodes about that upskilling piece and how we can develop or develop a culture of top performers? So I think you really touched on that. But let's get back to let's get back to the MSL that's out there that has the tendency to lean towards that strategic I'm sorry, towards that scientific piece. And they just have trouble with the strategic pieces. They're like is there one piece of advice? Is there one hack or one thing that they can do tomorrow that can help them?
So my advice would be to start by changing how you prepare for your next engagement. Instead of just reviewing the data, and that's important, write down three questions that will help you to understand your stakeholders' world. Make it your mission to leave that conversation with at least one new insight. That shift from informing to learning is the first step towards becoming strategic. What do you think happens next?
There's there's we we constantly hear about and we're talking about value because this is all a value discussion. But now we're hearing AI and how artificial intelligence and digital tools are gonna going to play a big factor and it enhances the MSL's ability to upscale, perform, and do better. Where do you think things are going? Like, what's your prediction for the future?
Well, I think that we're kidding ourselves if we don't believe that AI isn't going to play a role and and how, we integrate and transition these services in the future. I think these external applications are only gonna enhance our ability for strategic thinking. It will help us to build more credibility, and I think it's going to facilitate education as itself. And last but not least, which is what we're all trying to do, it's gonna influence outcomes.
Yeah. Do you think that the MSL job gets replaced by robots at some point? No. I actually I I actually put that into chat GPT. I asked it, and I did a post on this on LinkedIn. I said, you know, does the medical science liaison position eventually become eliminated because of artificial intelligence? And the answer was no. It actually said no, Not in five years, not in ten years, not in twenty years, and here's why. And it gave a bunch of different reasons.
And and and, you know, the crazy thing is not the crazy thing, but the interesting thing is that the answers were all about what we're talking about today. The relationships, the strategic piece of it, the ability to be problem solvers, bring back insights, be the conduit between the organization and and the external thought leaders. So I I agree with you.
I think that any of the MSLs that are listening to this right now, I think you should embrace AI because I think it's gonna be very important for for you to perform your job well. But I don't think you're gonna get replaced by a robot anytime soon. And, Joy, you agree. So I totally agree. What about final words, last words of of advice for folks that are just you know, that they want to establish themselves as a as a great MSL, top performing MSL, and maybe even a leader?
I would say, you know, never say never. Always go forward. There's always opportunity. And the more that you can learn and the more insightful that you can be, the more helpful you are. Remember, at the end of the day, we're all here because we want to help patients have a better outcome and particularly health outcome. So never lose sight of why you're there and why you're needed. Awesome. That's such great advice. We'll end it at that. Joy, you're the best. Thanks. Always love talking to you.
Couldn't wait to have you on and share you with with the podcast community. So thank you. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for listening, everybody. I hope you've enjoyed a few words of wisdom and and sharing thoughts today. Awesome. Thank you, guys. As always, appreciate you listening and sharing this show with others. Always appreciate all your support, and we will see you next time.