Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL and all things field medical. Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. Today, my guest is Mark Bernaducci, senior MSL, and someone I've known for a very long time. And Mark wanted to come on and share his story, his unconventional background, and how it's helped him lead to some great success as an MSL. I hope you guys enjoy it. Hey, Mark. How's it going, buddy? Thank you for joining me. How are you doing today?
I'm doing well, Tom. Good morning. It's great to see you again, and, looking forward to this, podcast format. I've never done a podcast before, so thank you for inviting me. Well, I couldn't wait to have you. You're the guy. I feel like you were made for you were made for this format. Not to take it any way. I'm sure you're great for, you know, face for TV, voice for podcast. Right. Exactly. We could do this without the video then. Right? It's all good. No. It's all good.
But, no. Thanks for joining me. You know, as I mentioned in the intro, you know, I told everybody, you know, we know each other a very long time. We've worked together for many years, and, you know, I'm excited to hear you tell your story and give folks advice. So, I mean, let's go back to the beginning. I know, you know, you you you spent a long time getting your education together and and getting that all out of the way. So tell everybody how that worked.
Yeah. You know, we wanna go back to the beginning, my education. We might have to go back to, when Jesus Christ walked the earth. But, Jesus Christ was in the quad. He was in the quad. Yeah. Moses was at the homecoming, you know. But, in all seriousness, I went to pharmacy school before the, my dad actually encouraged me to study pharmacy. I went to pharmacy school before the 6 year PharmD. So I, you know, I got my 5 year bachelor of science degree.
And a lot of why I chose to do what I what I did academically had to do with timing. So the time when I graduated, with my bachelor of science degree, it wasn't so much a timing issue. It was a need issue for me. So, obviously, the pharmacy curriculum is very, scientifically and clinically oriented. There isn't a whole lot of business acumen that was worked into the curriculum, at least at that time when I went through.
So I had already made a decision, well before I graduated to continue, and go on straight on through to next fall into a full time MBA program back in my home state, New Hampshire, where I could live at home and commute to the university. Excuse me. And if I didn't mention, I went to the University of Rhode Island Okay. For my bachelor of science degree. And so I thought that was gonna be it. And then, you know, that was 2 years.
And I decided to do that right after instead of working for a while like some people do or take a gap year as they call it now, kind of soak in life a little bit, get some experiences. I didn't wanna get used to, a certain lifestyle and then have to rip myself away from that lifestyle and be a full time student again.
Then I decided, you know, when I graduated with my MBA from the University of New Hampshire, the momentum for the 6 year PharmD degree to be the entry level degree had really started to, take off. And I thought, you know, using the same mentality of transitioning from my bachelor of science to my MBA, I said, why don't I just continue, go and get my doctor of pharmacy degree, and then I'll be done.
So in that transition from m you know, bachelor of science and I sat sat for my board, so I got my pharmacy license after my bachelor of science. Got my MBA. It was more of a timing thing for me to decide to go on for my doctor of pharmacy degree. And that's what I did. So you I went back down to the University of Rhode Island to do that. So you you went you were you started out you got your bachelor's degree in pharmacy, then you went and got an MBA, And then What did they do?
The PharmD program became in vogue, so you went and finished and got your doctorate of pharmacy. Why what what made you get the MBA? Like, what what what what kinda drove you to that? Well, as I had mentioned, there wasn't a whole lot of business acumen worked into the curriculum of of the bachelor of science degree at the University of Rhode Island, pharmacy. So I knew that I wasn't going to be necessarily a clinician all my life. Mhmm. And I wanted to have the opportunity to branch out.
So I wanted to prepare myself with at least the academic background to do that. It was up to me after I get these credentials to apply that background to work and and gain the experience, that I needed. So, getting that MBA actually opened doors for me to start pursuing some some, at the time, some nontraditional career career opportunities. Mhmm. So and, I mean, we're gonna continue talking about your your path and everything else.
But, like, looking now knowing what you know now, would you recommend to people to consider an MBL MBA, or do you think that because this is such a science focused, science driven environment in medical affairs that, you know, it might not make sense to do. I'm just curious what your advice might be to folks. It's it's good question. Good question. So there's there's a few things here, a few nuggets, if you will. One is there are some advantages to going straight through Mhmm.
The academic curriculum like I did without, like, breaking it up with some relevant work experience. I can tell you that in graduate you know, my graduate programs, MBA and then Pharm d, those that had been out in the work world, for some time you know, when I was working in the summers, you know, in retail pharmacy and and saving money to pay for the next academic year.
But for those who had been out for a while, who decided to go back to school and get their graduate degree, they came with a with a fresh with an interesting perspective and kind of a real world perspective that they could contribute during the class discussions. Yeah. You know? Both in the MBA and Pharm d. As far as what type of degree to get, I chose the MBA. Some people choose like an m m MHA, master in health administration 4 Yeah. Or an Miles per hour, masters of public health.
Yeah. I think it depends on what where you see yourself, and and you take it a self inventory and say, okay. What are my core strengths? What do I wanna do? Do my strengths line up with what I wanna do? If I if they do not, then what do I need the QS? What do I need to to complement my core training with? Yep. So that I can pursue what I wanna do. And for me, it was the MBA. And I have to tell you, it not only helped me out, professionally, it helped me out personally too.
Yeah. No. I mean, I I do think it's it's, it is unconventional for someone that's scientifically focused, but not totally uncommon. We see more and more of it now. But I'm glad to get to your point. It opened up a lot of doors because, obviously, you know, you spent a lot of time getting, you know, your education, getting an MBA, Pharm d. So I'm glad it paid off. Now so going back, how did you actually, you said these, you know, obviously, thing your, you know, doors were open.
So how did you actually transition to industry right in the beginning? Well, interesting question. So once I got all my, credentials Mhmm. Graduated with my PharmD, that was the final degree, I I actually relocated to Virginia where I am now, to work for a start up company. Mhmm. And that start up company had a lot of industry clients. And I was in a position with that company to be the the liaison between the company and these industry clients.
And I started getting to learn certain roles in industry, directors of medical affairs or professional services. They had different names back then. Yep. Medical affairs did. Clinical development. And so I was engaging with these people, and I guess what and one of them was a good friend of mine through, a mutual relationship through Kappa Psi Pharmaceutical Fraternity. So we were part of the same, professional fraternity.
And, he said, you know, your pharmacy background and business acumen would fit well in the industry. Would you ever consider working in the field? And at the time, he had an opening in, cardiovascular. And he said, you wanna work in the field? And I had no no idea. I've always commuted to an office and Yeah. My little cubicle or office, whatever. And I had no idea what working in the field was about, and I kind of I kind of fell into it. He offered it to me. I trusted him.
I said and it was at a it came at a time where I was I needed something fresh to reenergize me, and, I took it on. So what was a that was in field medical or field sales? That was in field medical. So this was it's that's another good question because at the time, this was back before the pharma regulations came out in 2001. Okay. And the role that I took was clinical science specialist. It wasn't MSL.
I know that even now companies have different names, regional medical liaison, regional medical director, what have you. But MSL is kind of a generic acronym, and it really embodies, the large, the lion's share of the job description that we we look at in field based medical. But clinical science specialist was, you know, was a precursor to the MSL role. And and, really, I when I look back, I'm in field based medical now, and I know what it's like now and the lanes that we have to stay in Mhmm.
And what we can say and what we can't say proactively, reactively. And I I compare that to when when I started and there were no guardrails, and the lines were very blurry. Yeah. And the Sunshine Act was wasn't even A thing. Around. I I don't even know if it was even an idea back then. So I have the unique perspective of of knowing what it was for a brief while before the pharma regulations and the Sunshine Act came up came around. And now I know what it's like now. So, yeah.
It's very different. It was it was a I would have to say, the clinical science specialist role at that time was a commercial, a commercial scientist. Yeah. So you can You you asked him that term. You were, like, in, you know, one of in the beginning stages of the MS I mean, obviously, 1st MSL was, you know, 1967 Upjohn. We kinda know the history. We know the story. But the evolution of the medical science liaison position really didn't start to kick in until, late nineties, early 2000. You know?
And then now we're seeing this this this major evolution and boom. Explosion. Yeah. Yeah. It's totally different. So you came up through those through that time period. Having a PharmD, having an MBA obviously opened a bunch of doors. Is that why you know? Because you you coined the title and the phrase for this the title of this podcast, you know, how an unconventional background, you know, can lead to success, whatever.
Like, is that why you think your background's unconventional because you had gotten, you know, your your degrees all at once? Or is it because you had played a bunch of had it a bunch of different roles outside of being an MSO? I the the unconventionality, and I can't remember the exact verbiage of the title of this The road less traveled. I hope We got all The road less traveled. So The road less traveled. Thank you. Thank you. The, it's it's the path that I took.
My background isn't so unconventional. I have to say, at the time, taking the initiative to get my MBA then go on to get my Pharm b at that time when I did it, I was the exception and not the rule. Definitely. Yeah. Nobody did that back then. Yeah. And so now it's it's it's more it's you're seeing more and more of that as you alluded to. So looking at my career path from that time when I first got into field based medical in the late nineties, I've been in field based medical.
I've been in scientific communications, on the vendor side of the business. I have actually had gap transitions back into retail pharmacy because of business environment and timing and and and product failures, quite frankly, and surprise reorganizations and displacements and things of that nature. It used to be that the MSL role was much more secure than the sales role because sales was always as long as I've been in in a pharmaceutical industry, sales has always had a lot of turnover.
Yeah. Territories reorganized in this territory, expanding over here, downsizing over here. Much less so the MSLs because they're not as many MSLs as there are salespeople. But I've noticed it seems that, you know, some companies have 100 of MSLs. Yeah. You know, nations just just in this country. Yeah. Globally. Hundreds of MSLs.
And and I'm finding that depending on business business objectives and things that MSLs aren't typically privy to, and things that they can't control or even the company can't control where the competition comes out or whatnot. You know, those roles aren't as stable anymore. So there's another takeaway here in terms of going from, field based medical to to may a vend a vendor role to going back in the field based medical to doing, you know, national speak.
I'm kind of reflecting people can look at my LinkedIn profile and see this in black and white, but, you know, I've kind of I've kind of bounced around. In some cases of that in most cases, I have to explain that to a lot of people. But what that has done is it has made me I look at my background now today, my LinkedIn profile, and I I see I see 2 things. I see maybe I'm biased. You're you're you're a top recruiter, but I see versatility and I see adaptability.
Okay. And nothing's guaranteed in this professional life for sure and even in your personal life. So your ability to to acquire experiences and skill sets and and kind of package them into a a versatile, adaptable professional package yourself Mhmm. I think is very valuable going forward. So take that that's interesting because I think that a lot of people wind up being forced to move from one role to the next role to the next role for different reasons.
Like you said, acquisitions, product doesn't get approved. There's different things that happen. So there are people listening to this podcast that might have 3 or 4 different career changes or or company changes on their CV, but they themselves didn't intend to be a job hopper, and they're not a job hopper. They just were affected that way. What you're saying is embrace it. You know, try to explain the changes, but also use that as a positive to be able to say, hey.
With me and my background comes a lot of adaptability, a lot of versatility, you know, having to overcome and restart, reinvent myself a little bit maybe at a new company. But going back, do you think that it makes sense? Like, if there's someone who's looking to break into industry you know, you you got into industry, kind of, you know, maybe friend of a friend, word-of-mouth, you know, it could you kinda fell into it.
But if there's someone looking to break into industry, do you think it makes sense for them to consider starting in a role that's not an MSL role? Maybe it's in scientific communications. Maybe it's on the vendor side. Maybe it's clinical research. What's your thought on that? Well, I mean, you you touched on I mean, that's how I kinda fell into it.
I I didn't have a a direction, like, I'm going to get back in the late nineties, right, when I was at clinical science special became a clinical science specialist, and I was working for that start up before. I didn't say I'm gonna get into industry. It just kinda of fell, you know, in my lap, if you will, as you put it. But I think for those wanting to break into industry, you're this is a much better time period than it was when I, you know, got out of school and started working.
Because now you have you have companies, large and small and everything in between, that are that are looking to leverage the talent pool. Mhmm. Right? And correct me if I'm wrong. So we have and I'm noticing on LinkedIn and other platforms, and even just by word-of-mouth, a lot of companies set up these internships, fellowships Yep. Or externships in industry. And they may not be directly in in medical affairs. They may be clinical development.
They may be even med MedInfo within the industry where there's a lot of science of the communication, maybe in publications. Yeah. So looking at the peer reviewed footprint for the company, and the also the congress and meeting footprint with posters and abstracts and whatnot. So yeah. If you can get into one of the if you can't get right into a field based medical role, don't be discouraged. Look at some of these other, Yeah. The other program. That's great advice.
Yeah. The other, to to get involved in and and actively oh, also network with professional professionals who are currently in medical affairs and, you know, do your best with networking. The old adage, it's not always what you know, it's who you know. So that certainly helps. And in the case I knew that one individual who got me into field based medical affairs way back when. And then look at these, internships and externships and fellowships.
Yeah. They may not be high paying, high pollutant, but they're very valuable for you. It gives you a platform to prove yourself, gives you a platform, to make connections internally directly with a company that you are working with or in. Mhmm. I say with now because there are not a lot of people going into the offices during this pandemic. So, but still, you know, we can use this this, virtual platform for networking as well, pick up the phone.
Those are very valuable opportunities that can really kick start Yeah. Your career in medical. And it's becoming more and more, just one last point. It's becoming more and more competitive as the talent pool expands seemingly exponentially and more and more people. I'm getting pinged on on LinkedIn all the time, emailed privately. Hey. How can I break into this role? How can I break into that role? I was like, I didn't realize that many people were interested in this type of role.
Yeah. So Well, you know and and you bring up a lot of really good points. I mean, to your point, yes. I do think it's a great time to try to transition into industry if you're if you're trying to break in, because there are a lot of different things available now. First of all, there's there's more demand there's more MSL positions available now. More companies are hiring MSLs, more expansions, larger teams.
The need and the and the and the value proposition for field medical affairs has never been as strong as it is now. The challenge is it's also never been as competitive. There's never been as many people all trying to break in at the same time. So when you bring up things like fellowships and internships, yeah, that's a that's great advice. It's just hard to get those. But, you you know, to your point, you know, networking is the great equalizer. We talk about that a lot.
It's the great equalizer because if you insert yourself into the medical affairs community, you're networked with a lot of folks, and your background is consistent with what one of those folks may potentially need on their team, well, guess what? You know, they might say, oh, yeah. I remember, you know, I've talked to so and so, or I'm mentoring so and so. Right. You know? Right. They might be a great fit for our team. Let me see if I can get the resume in front of the right people.
Now did stuff like that happen for you? Like because I know that you you've made you know, I mean, knowing your background and, you know, looking at your LinkedIn profile, you made a bunch of different moves. Was, you know, was more of your success, through the relationships that you had, or was it through your your efforts in your job search to just be really aggressive to apply to a bunch of things and put yourself in the right place at the right time?
So, I would have to say, you know, that it's not as black and white, for me. Certainly, I would have to say 2 thirds, was a result of my relationships and my reputation in the industry. And then the other third, the final third was just my tenacity and drive and determination. I as the as the job environment becomes more and more competitive as you stated Mhmm. Think you know, you can't wait for people to reach out to you, and you can't always rely solely on your connections.
You have to proactively immerse yourself in the discussion, bring yourself to the table. And in some cases, I I would argue even if you're uninvited, you know, figuratively speaking. And just, you know, don't be a nuisance, but, you know, try to demonstrate, your desire, your acumen, whether it be scientific or or business or otherwise, and people will eventually take notice. It it really has to do with you know, it's almost like KOL relationships. Right? Thought leader relationships.
The first time you you've never met a, this particular KOL before. You're going in. You're trying to make a good first impression. And just as a tip for anyone currently in field based medical or looking in to get into field based medical, don't always go into that initial meeting with a KOL for the first time saying, you know, worried about your agenda. Okay? Your your agenda. Yes. It's very important that you have objectives, and trust me, KOLs know that.
But if you go in and and go in and try to under try to go in with the with the attitude that you wanna understand the KOLs agenda and what their needs are. Right. And they they will create opportunities in that organic ensuing dialogue. And there's an art to being an MSL, and that's probably a whole another pod podcast that you probably already posted. But there's an art to this, and I'm still refining it after 2 decades.
But they they will in that organic dialogue, they will create opportunities for you to to insert your agenda or insert your information rather than because you put them on the defensive a lot of time. It's like, alright. What what kind of messages do I have to listen to before I can get to what I wanna talk about? Yep. Right? So Yeah. No. That's great.
And, you know, you I I was just about to ask as as I'm as we're talking about your career evolution and your success and, you know, what you've been able to accomplish over the course of these years. And I was gonna ask you, you know, what advice would you give your younger self, or what advice would you give to a current MSL that's trying to establish their career?
Obviously, you gave us one really good tidbit with your approach to KOLs and, maybe focus more on the KOL needs and uncovering their needs, you know, and then working your agenda in as opposed to just going in with your agenda. What else I mean, what other secrets to the biz can you offer mister Bernaducci doctor Bernaducci? It's alright. Mister doctor, doctor mister, I would a couple of things. Patience is a virtue, certainly in your job search and finding that ideal position.
Mhmm. Just be patient. You know, you may be thinking you're putting your best best foot forward and somehow it doesn't bear fruit. It's not always your fault, you know, as as the job seeker. Mhmm. There are things you probably don't know about and circumstances you don't know about. Hiring freezes because of COVID and everything else. I I experienced that as well. So, be patient. Mhmm. The other is be coachable. Once you're in the role, be coachable. Have a bit of a thick skin. Okay?
And I know that may be may be tough for people, certainly, who just break into their first real role Yeah. After academia, where the the teacher student relationship is much different than the boss subordinate relationship. And sometimes it can be a difficult transition mentally, emotionally. And, just, be a little bit thick skinned. Understand that not everything is personal.
There are overarching business objectives and and, again, things and nuances you may not know what might be happening above your boss and even higher, you know, that that he or she may be protecting you from or shielding you from. Yeah. You know, and just trying to help you focus and and be the best performer you can be at your role so that in the future, you may get looks for promotion or what have you or or progression. So, you know, be coachable, be patient.
You know, and and I'll tell you, it's the MSO role is complicated. You know? It it's it's it's tricky. It's complicated. There's so many nuances to it. Kinda feel like you almost have to be coachable. You know?
I feel like if you're not coachable, you're not doing yourself you're doing yourself a disservice because there's it's so important to learn from others around you, including your, you know, your direct supervisors, but also your teammates and folks that are in a position where they can help you evolve, you know, in your career and and help kinda point out how you can get better. Yeah. It, you know, it it's sometimes I have to step back.
I just paused the thought there because I I think there's there's another tidbit here for us. You know, as I mentioned, I got I have nearly 20 years of experience in field based medical. And, it's very easy to think after 20 years that I've got this down pat. Mhmm. I know what I'm doing and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I've I've, you know, I I've made mistakes. I think the way in which you grow is you learn from those mistakes.
I've mentored less experienced MSLs in the past. I've led teams in the past. And without making mistakes, I don't think I could be a good mentor and a and a and a good a guide for someone who wants to break in, to industry or wants, field based medical or who wants to progress in industry. So, you know, I have to taste my own medicine sometimes. And sometimes I have to sit back and say, you know, even after 2 decades, I don't know everything.
And I have to tell you one of the things that I don't know a lot about right now, but I'm eager to learn is this this new digital platform. Mhmm. You know, look at we're doing a podcast here. So this is the new plat platform. This is the new platform now through which KOLs can be accessed and through which KOLs are influencing now.
And I know, you know, less about how to influence the digital influencers, if you will, and how to leverage the digital platforms to advance, you know, company objectives or employer objectives. Mhmm. So this is something that I'm open to learning right now, and I am I am, I'm learning a little bit every day. And participating in things like this helped me learn as well. So I appreciate the opportunity. Well and it you know, we let you know, just like you said, we learn from our mistakes.
We all get humbled a little bit, and we don't know everything because everything's changing so fast. I mean, you know, to your point It's the truth. We're, I mean, we're in this unprecedented time right now with COVID and everything else, and we're all figuring this out, which is gonna be my next question. Yeah. You're you're leading me right down the path to my next question. So, you know, looking at 20 we're you know, it's December. Right? We're looking straight into 2021.
Everybody can't wait to put 2020 behind us. How do you prepare for for what's next? How do you prepare for the next, hopefully, final phase of COVID and then the transition back to what hopefully might be the old normal, which would be live, you you know, engagement, live interactions? So what's your advice to folks as they move into 2021 MSLs?
My advice, to folks, certainly who are already in so you're already in a industry and and looking to transition into 2021 is understand that it appreciate the possibility that it may not ever get back to the old normal. Okay. Alright. It may not ever get back there. As much as we wanted to get back there Mhmm. I think there are some things that may stay. I don't think we'll be doing as much virtual engagement as we're doing now, but I think we might see more of it Yeah.
Being used, for certain opportunities and certain objectives. I think also this COVID pandemic has forced us not only to think virtually, but how do we influence digitally? Yep. Because, you know, this virtual environment, this is technology. Well, you know and and industry was doing this before, but it kind of industry, in my view, kind of got slapped in the face with this.
And now all of a sudden, we gotta go from 1 on 1 face to face and con convening at congresses to how do we conduct these engagements efficiently and effectively with digital technology. And industry is I I'm not gonna lie. Industry is looking at this because there are economies of scale here that can be achieved, where cost can be reduced while not compromising the outcome. So I would not, I would not rush forward in 2021 saying, yeah.
I got vaccinated, and I'm I'm okay, and and things are gonna be back to normal. It's, you know, the health care institutions that we you know, if you if you work in institutions a lot Mhmm. They already have vendor mate and all these other you know, where you had to have your flu vaccine, you had to have all these check boxes before you could even see somebody, that's gonna change too. Probably gonna incorporate some COVID stuff.
They're probably gonna have some sort of protocol in place that is a a spillover from what protocols they currently have in place during this pandemic. So just be open minded. Yep. Roll with the punches. Roll with the punches and do the best you can in in the new normal. I'm not so sure it's gonna get back to the old normal. I'd love it to get back to the old normal. Yeah. That's my comfort zone. So biggest tidbit.
Yeah. Biggest tidbit, don't be afraid to go out of your comfort zone every once in a while. That's a good one, man. We have and listen. You know, if 2020 taught us anything, we had no choice. We all were thrown out of our comfort zone. And we're going back to that. Your your original honestly, one of your original points was adaptability and the importance of adaptability.
I think we've all had a lesson in it in 2020, but what you're saying is, be prepared to continue to be adaptable and maybe get some new lessons because we don't know what's in store. We don't. We don't know the future. So just be nimble, be adaptable, be be make yourself versatile so that maybe going out of your comfort zone isn't so so intimidating because you could say, oh, I did a little bit of that in my past.
I can handle this, I think, with a little bit of guidance and mentorship in the beginning, and then I can be off to the races. So, you know, I've been blessed. I've been lucky. You know, mistakes of net net, I come out on top. You know, I feel I have. And, I hope that what we've shared here on this platform, helps others. No doubt, man. You're awesome. Listen, man. You know, you're we got like I said, we go back a long way. I couldn't wait to have you come on. Yeah. And you did not disappoint.
Tremendous advice. I I appreciate you, and I and I know everybody else does. So thanks so much for coming on. Happy holidays, man. Enjoy it. Stay stay healthy. Happy holidays to you, and thank you very much, Tom. Alright. Take care. Talk soon. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.