Hey guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Jill Donahue and she is a medical affairs leader and author, and she talks about the power of purpose and the importance for MSLs and medical affairs professionals. It's a really awesome conversation. Don't forget to follow me here on LinkedIn for announcements for MSL talk live. And thank you all for the support of my new book, job search mastery, how to win your dream job. I had my book launch last week.
You guys are awesome for all of your support. If you haven't checked it out and you're a job seeker, just go to Amazon and search my name and search job search mastery. You'll find it. But really wanna thank you all for your support of the book and, of course, the support of this show. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Jill. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, Tom. Thanks for inviting me. Happy to be here.
Yeah. I am excited, guys. So Joe was introduced to me. I know you guys like to know how I come up with all this stuff. And Joe was introduced to me, by a mutual colleague, and I found out about her story and her book. And then I talked to her and I'm like, yes, definitely couldn't wait to share her with you. As you guys know, every once in a while, I bring somebody, from a little bit of a different walk of life or just a different topic.
This isn't that because Jill has a medical affairs background, but she also wrote a book about purpose and we're gonna talk about that, and what it's all about. But first, I'm gonna let her do an intro so that she could tell you a little bit about herself, and then we'll get into it. Yeah. That sounds good, Tom. Yeah. I think it's important to start with, you know, why I'm here and and, what my intentions are. Right?
So, my background, pharma from the beginning, I came in with a a different sort of background, though. I came in with a psychology degree and, noticed that everyone around me was super, super smart in the life sciences, but, working in continuing medical education, I noticed that it wasn't enough to just have the life sciences. I mean, that was basic entrance fee. Right? You had to have that.
But what was missing, I noticed, was the behavioral sciences, the ability to communicate and engage the in front of you. And I imagine, like, what if both muscles were strong? Imagine the push ups we could do. So that's what I focused my studies on, trying to figure out how do we better engage? How do we better communicate? What is the magic sauce there? So I did my master's in adult education with a focus on influencing health care behavior change.
And then when I was, 35, something happened that really altered my path. Well, actually deepened it, I guess, because I watched at at that time, my father died as a result of a prescribing error. So, and probably lots of listeners have similar stories. Medical error is such a challenge. Right? But but what it did for me was made me step back and say, you know, what if?
What if my dad's doctors, Emisel, FMD, whatever you call them, rep, CAM, whomever, had been better able to access and engage my father's doctor so that he would have known the right product for the right at the right time for the right patient. So I actually left big pharma, 2 years after that because I continued to to research this and, wrote my first book and and, wanted to sort of sing from the rooftops what I was learning. So I thought if only my peers in pharma knew this.
So started teaching and sharing, what I was learning from stages, and then people would invite me to come in to share with their teams. And, that sort of led to, developing you know, people would say, well, what's the nut of it? I don't have time for all your books and your programs. What's the single most important thing? And that leads to what we're gonna talk about today. But I think I've gone beyond the introduction and now, talking about my passion.
No. And and it's funny when when you get someone who is so passionate, like, I I I could see you're just, like, you're jumping right into it, which is totally fine. I love your story. So just to un just to unpack, guys. Yeah. So Jill has a a long history in the pharmaceutical industry, and then went through this experience watching what happened to her dad.
So I know from our conversation that that ignited something in you and it created this, this purpose and, and it created this drive and this burn that you now have. So can you share that piece of it? How that's led to some of the stuff you're doing now? Yeah. For sure. So interestingly, yeah, that lit a fire. Right? I want to figure out, well, how can we do this better? I saw this missing piece in our ability to to communicate and engage, and how can we do that better?
So I started researching that. And at first, I was teaching the 5 steps of behavior change. Now what do physicians think and and, what do we need to say and do to move them forward in those steps? What do we need to do to move patients forward in those steps to move ourselves forward? Right? And I was teaching that, and then I had this moment in front of a group of sales reps. It was at the time where I thought, oh my gosh.
They could use this for manipulation instead of positive ethical influence. And when you hear the word manipulation, what do you think of? Right? Like, yuck. Right? We don't want that. Right? So, I stepped back and thought, what is it that I know to be true, but I'm not articulating? And I realized it was an authentic focus on the patient or being purpose driven. So I I created this, this, training called the power of purpose, and that's the nut of it.
People will say, well, what's the missing piece of the puzzle? I don't have time to read all your books. What what is it? And I'll say, well, the missing piece of the puzzle is being authentically purpose driven. In our industry, that's being authentically patient focused. And so that's sort of the knot of all this research and all the times I've been teaching people. It sort of boiled down to without that, we can't do all the other stuff. Right?
It doesn't matter how good our science is, how good our data is. If we don't have that authentic connection to our purpose. And I can share more about what that word means, but that's sort of the knot of, of what I discovered, as the most key, them foundational to everything else as the most important thing and the piece that's missing a lot. Yeah. No. Lots to unpack there.
And, you know, as, as I'm hearing you and just thinking about the importance of what you're saying, can you because you had mentioned, you know, MSLs and sales reps and and all these these other like, it seems like anyone and everyone should live with a sense of purpose and with an obligation, if you're in the pharmaceutical industry, to figure out what you can do to move patient outcomes and and influence, you know, positive patient outcomes.
But let's talk about the MSL and why this concept is so important for MSLs and the MSL community. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Everyone can and should. It's a it's a choice we make. Right? To be focused on your purpose. And and I should clarify to Tom for for you and and the MSLs out there. When I whenever I say to people, what's your purpose? The first thing they think of usually is family, faith, and friends. And, yes, absolutely. Right?
That everything you do is for the people you love, that sort of thing. But think of purpose as a 3 legged stool. That's your personal purpose. Right? Family, faith, and friends. Then there's your organizational purpose, and we are so blessed in our industry that we work for organizations whose purpose is to save and improve lives. Right? Some version of that is on your website. Right? The 3rd purpose, your role purpose, that's the leg of the 3 legged stool that is often missing.
And, of course, you know, what's in it for MSLs? Well, it's hard to sit on a 2 legged stool. Right? That third leg gives you the energy, the stamina, the grit, the creativity, the collaboration. It does amazing things for you when you connect with how does your role contribute to saving, improving lives? And, you know, that that intersection where those three things meet? That's when, the game changes for MSLs.
They say there was life before connecting with this and life after, sort of like a transformational experience when they choose to do the work to be connected to how their role helps people, helps people, helps patients. And when they get that feeling, that's that, lighting that fire inside of them. And not just that, yes, I wanna help people, but when they go deeper and say, where does that come from for me? Like, you know, I'll I'll I'll I'd love to know for you, Tom.
Like, where does your drive come from? What was it about your upbringing, your experiences, your adult, experiences that made you wanna help people so much, specifically in health care. Like, why do you care so much about health care? You know, for MSLs that I work with, you know, in the book that we'll talk about later, but, which is free for everyone, so hang on and we'll give you the link for that.
But, you know, there's a bunch of triggers typically, you know, I think in the book we found there were about 8 triggers that can help MSLs come to, you know, why? Why are you here? Purpose comes from helping others. So why does that matter to you that you're in a career, a profession where you get to help people, help people, help patients? Why does that matter to you? Where does that come from? And when people connect to that, they often haven't thought of it.
90% of people aren't connected to their role purpose, and when they connect to that, then that changes things. They stand taller, feel more proud. You know, for MSLs, I I I wrote an article called, tired of being told you went to the dark side. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Helps them connect with that, that pride and that meaning in their work again. Yeah. I did a podcast on that too, as a matter of fact. So that's so funny. So let me let me go back.
There was something you said about, this, you know, being a kind of a game changer. Mhmm. So as it relates to MSLs, have you seen any results from adopting this sort of mindset? Yeah. So, you know, very tangible things. Like, for example, an MSL said, you know, I just can't get any appointments. I'm sending the emails out, and no one's responding, let alone booking appointments. And I said, well, show me the email.
And the email was all about me and my company, and I want an appointment with you. And I said, let's take this mindset because it really is, being purpose driven impacts everything you think, say, and do. Right? So let's take the purpose driven, patient centric mindset and change that email. So the email turned around completely into why why am I reaching out to you, doctor?
I'm here, and here's my, a little bit of my background on how I wanna help you help patients and why that's important to me. Anyway, so significant changes in the response rate. So now we started booking meetings. Or MSS will tell me, you know, the connection that they have when they begin a presentation, whether it's to 1 or a 100, with a 3 sentence version of their we call it an ignition ignition story.
So that's where you, in 3 or 4 sentences, share with someone why you're here and what your intentions are. They share that at the front of a presentation. They say the engagement completely changes. Or 1 on 1 with a doctor, he took his hand off the doorknob and sat back down. Right? Or in an audience, like a virtual audience, they'll say to me, they they actually stayed on camera. There were great questions. The outcomes afterwards were were much larger. So you get that connection.
You know, I've had reps say I went from, you know, not even in the top 30 to top 5, reps type of thing. So it's it's about you know, people talk about we need to create relationships. We need to create connection. That's sort of the missing je ne sais quoi. Right? That, we can teach them the science, etcetera, but they don't have that. And this purpose helps you get that.
You don't have to be an excellent, talker or, you know, like, but if you can connect with your purpose while you're there, that is what will create that connection relationship. Yeah. So that's what's super important for me. It's like this X factor. And when you, when you develop it, it could be very powerful. And as I'm listening to you, there's, there's a lot of research.
And I just wrote an article on this, but there's a lot of research on authenticity, how powerful authenticity is and how it really vibrates at the highest frequency if you're into that sort of thing. But, how impactful it is if it is for like, even in social media content and influence, not to mention that when you're communicating peer to peer, authenticity goes a long way. And it seems like that's a big part of this.
Absolutely. And I'm glad you mentioned the evidence because that's the other thing I want to say is this isn't just me saying this. There is tons of evidence on this. And I always say to farmer leaders, you know, you're so big on evidence based science, Be big on evidence based behavioral science as well. Mhmm. You know, I I tell this story about, Johnny Johnson, a bus driver, who, was so driven by his purpose to make people smile instead of driving them around.
And at the end of our bus trip at the airport, you know, he drives that same circle all day long. I said to him, you know, what is it, you know, that that, ins inspires you? And he says, well, I had to decide. Right? I came here with my master's degree. I had to decide. What's the purpose of this? Is it just a paycheck? That wasn't enough.
I decided my my purpose was to I mean, that was important, of course, but my beyond that, my purse was purpose was to bring energy and make people smile, which he did. And as a result, he made more tips, went home with a smile himself, and he but then his his final mic drop moment was when he said, but you know what? It has to come from here. People are smart, you know. It has to come from here, and he put his hand on his heart.
Mhmm. And that's what you're talking about there, about that authenticity. And I'll say to to MSLs, you know, if you really don't care about what happens to the patient in the end, if you don't really care about helping that doctor or or helping your peer help a doctor, if you really don't care, you're not gonna do very well. It'll come across too. I think people pick up on it. Yeah. And and vice versa. They pick up on the passion.
They pick up on someone that truly has heart, whether you're a bus driver or an MSL. If you're if you have a purpose and a passion and and it comes through, there's a certain there's so many different words, I think, to describe this, but there's a certain charisma that people can't with them when they live purpose driven. I guess my question to you, especially as it relates to MSLs, is this teachable Or is this just like a signature trait that skill that people either have or they don't?
Such a good question, Tom. Wouldn't it be a drag if I were to say, yeah. Yeah. I have. We'd lose half the half the people. I guess I guess I don't know. You know. No. No. The great news is but I think that's the problem. People think we'll we'll hire people who have that. Yeah. Right? We'll search for it or, you know, maybe you'll go hike the Camino Trail and find it or something. Right? So so what I what I teach is is this is a choice.
And like any choice, like, you know, it takes more muscle to smile than to frown, but you can choose that. Right? Maybe once upon a time in your life, you thought, well, happiness would be over there, right after you finished school, after the kids brought their diapers, after and then you realized at some point, wait a minute. No. No. No. This is a choice. I can create happiness right here, right now. Same thing with purpose. Right?
You've already got your personal purpose probably pretty clear. Your organizational purpose is written out for you. Your role purpose is a choice you can make to love your job. Why not model that for your kids if not for yourself? Right? Model that for the people around you that work is something I can choose to love. And it's so easy in our industry to make that choice because it is such a noble purpose, bringing science to change lives.
So, yeah, this is something that you can learn and it's not one and done though. Like, you know, even the journey we call it a journey, we take people on, it's not like a single little workshop, but we take them on this little journey and then we empower them for, what are you going to do next? How are you gonna fuel this? It's like a a fire you have to keep fueling. And there's things that we've identified that help people continue to focus on purpose.
And especially when you do it with a team, it's it's harder when you're the only one, not impossible. And I always encourage people it starts with you. But when you do it with a team, that's super powerful, and you help fuel that flame of purpose together. Literally just led right to my next question. Did I? The next question I had was that, I'm I'm glad to hear that it's teachable. I'm glad to hear that.
People listening to this, taking it seriously and saying, yeah, I feel like that's something I need to work on. I think that's awesome. But what about teams and what advice do you have for team leaders in developing this mindset? So important. So, I love it when, you know, I I often I'll start working with a leadership team, and partway through the journey, they'll say, you know, I should do this with my team, and I'll say, absolutely.
Because if you are a team leader and you're struggling with, how do I know how to stimulate like, they don't have that factor x, x factor as you call it. Right? How do I get that in them? What what do I do to light their fire? You can't light their fire, but you can help them light the fire within. Right? Take that off of yourself and help them empower themselves. And with this power of purpose, we have tried everything on the industry. We do a really good job with monetary incentives.
And, yes, of course, we need to have remuneration, etcetera, But the evidence out there shows that the highest performers, Daniel Pink did an excellent analysis in his book drive of, what are the 3 keys to exceptional performance? And purpose was right up there. Purpose, was foundational to high performers. So as a leader, you want to you wanna help your people. You wanna help them ignite this, and that'll also, reduce the silos within your team.
If you're having trouble with teamwork, it'll help them create collaboration inside the organization as well as outside the organization because people are influenced or engaged by those they trust, admire, and believe care for them. And when you communicate your authentic purpose, you you are connected around around that common purpose to to help them help change people's lives. So, yeah, as a team leader, it's it's so powerful when you do as a team together.
Yeah. When we do this journey with people in the end, there's there's tears, there's laughter, and people say, wow. You know, Tom, I've worked with you for 20 years, and I never knew. I never knew that. Yeah. So people are more willing to assume best intent, forgive, you know, roll up their sleeves, go the extra mile, all those things when they realize, okay, now I can see you finally. And I'll I just know from myself that it, when you're an MSO, I was, I was in the field for 10 years.
MSLs that are out in the field, it gets lonely out there. You know? So like you have to, I feel like it's so important to wake up every day intentional and purpose driven and feel like you're like fighting for something or, you know, or just have this the purpose. And I feel like as MSLs, it's we talk about this on the podcast all the time. It's one of the best jobs in the world. It's not the best job in the world. Mhmm. But it can be very mundane. It could it could beat you down.
It could be frustrating, like any job, but, but, you know, access is difficult and KOLs could be difficult and metrics are not getting any easier, but I feel like, and you tell me, I feel like it becomes different when you attack it and come at it with a real intention and a real purpose. Exactly. And some of those problems that you mentioned, are reduced the access, the difficulty, right?
There's a lot of rejection, but somehow you don't take it as personally when you know you're there to help patients with x, y, z problem. Right? I'm here representing, helping that. I'm not just here to deliver data. There's a there's an end goal here. Right? I have a noble purpose in this. And when you stand in that nobility, it changes how you present yourself. So you get greater access engagement. Now there's other things we can't control, mergers, acquisitions, restructuring, downside.
There's a lot of stuff that can bring us down, but we can make a choice and create, you know, whatever it is for you that helps keep you there. Maybe it's listening to your podcast every day. Right? Maybe it's reading someone's story in in the book that we're gonna give them at the end here, reading someone else's story. Maybe it's putting a picture of the person or the patient inspires you.
Maybe it's volunteering for a patient organization to re really connect with that patient group that you're helping. There's all sorts of things that you can do as simple as watching. You know, I, make it on my, social media feed watching, patients' journeys so I can connect every day with, wow. Makes my problems a lot smaller, right, looking what they were dealing with today.
But what are you going to do to make that choice despite all the the boring paperwork that's on your plate today or the rejection that you received all day long or the upcoming threat of a acquisition? Right? What are you going to do to keep yourself focused Mhmm. On the impact, the difference you're making in the world? That's what we all want. We all wanna make a difference. Right? And we have that blessing in in this role to really choose to focus on that and and fuel that flame. For sure.
I would just want to repeat one thing that Jill said. She did say how important it was to listen to the MSL talk podcast. Just saying, I heard her say it. You want me to repeat that for your people? No. So the fuel. That's the that's part of the fuel. Right? There's all kinds of places you can get fuel, but here's a good one. Yeah. Well, let's talk about your book. I I I'm I'm really excited for you to share your book with everyone and tell them what it's all about.
Sure. So, it's called a dose of inspiration, 100 purpose stories from pharma leaders. And this came about and I just have to show you, it's just so pretty inside. Every one of them has a different, page there with their pictures and their story. But it came about because, you know, we were doing this journey with people, and at the end of the journey, we do a group share where the team shares their stories, and it's just so powerful. Total goosebumps all the way through.
So I'll go into my kitchen and share these stories with my family, and then I thought, well, this is silly, right? It ending there. And I thought I there's so many people in this world that I'm not gonna be able to touch or that won't, I won't be able to go in and work with their teams. But I thought, well, if we could get this book out there, it's a little dose. It's literally a dose of inspiration for people.
And if this prompts people to think about their story or to, be inspired to think about the patient that day, think about their purpose. Awesome. And so we've made it free, a free download. And then people said, well, I want the hard copy. So we put it on Amazon. We don't get any profit from it. You know, these 100 people donated their time. I interviewed them, captured their stories for them. So it's a nonprofit endeavor. But you but Amazon makes some profit from it.
But you can go there and get the hard copy, but we'll also I I'm sure you can put in the notes or somewhere a link to get your a free, ebook version of it. Guys, check it out. I downloaded it. I have it. It's really, really. And for those of you listening that couldn't see Jill, she was showing the book. So go to YouTube and check it out. But, we're just buying it. It it's really cool. I mean, it's really well done. And I think you guys will get a lot out of it.
So, Jill, thank you for coming on any, any kind of final words, any, any final advice on this, this topic of purpose? Yeah, I guess my final advice would be just to go to the word choice. Yeah. It's a choice. You've already done all the hard work to get into a, a role, where you can use your love of science to change people's lives. Just choose to focus on that and have that mindset and that'll change everything. Powerful. That's really powerful.
And guys, for those of you listening, like the last bunch of episodes have been all about books. Like I have my buddy, Anthony Leon, when he launched his book, I, as you guys know, I just launched my book, job search mastery, how to win your dream job. So check it out if you haven't. We did an episode, called the, never split the difference, which is an amazing book, but books are so important and you should always be reading.
And this is something that I think for MSLs and medical affairs professionals, you should definitely check out. It's a really good cause. It's a nonprofit and, and it's free. So, Jill, you're the best. Thank you so much for coming on. You're awesome, Tom. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the good work, the great work you're doing inspiring people. Awesome. Appreciate you. And, guys, thanks for joining us. Appreciate all your support of this show.
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