Hey, guys. Welcome to our 200th episode of the MSL Talk Podcast. Today, I have a very special guest, Sarah Snyder, who is an MSL recruiter on my team here at the Karen Group, who has been with me on this journey since the beginning is going to help discuss the last 4 years and 200 episodes of what has. Changed and what has stayed the same with the MSL role. So it's a great conversation. I hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow both of us on LinkedIn and check out.
MSL talk live, which is announced on LinkedIn. That's once a month and that's a panel discussion. We invite you to join us. It's great. And a lot of people are getting a lot of value from it. So we'll see you at the next one. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Sarah. Welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Tom. Thanks for having me back. Guys, I'm really excited. So this is a milestone episode.
It is episode 200. So it's 4 years since we started this podcast. Sarah's been on the show so many times, and she's been along this journey with me. And as you know, we work together, and she's such a pivotal pivotal part of my team that I thought this was such an it's a big milestone, and I wanted her to be a part of it.
So what we're gonna talk about, just to cut to the chase, is we're gonna look back at 4 years and 200 episodes, and we're gonna talk about the MSL role, what has changed, and what has stayed the same. So before we do that, Sarah, why don't you just do a quick introduction? Yeah. Definitely. And thank you again for having me as part of this just monumental, you know, occasion, I guess, and congratulations to making it to episode 200.
Guys, this is so much work that Tom puts into it every week, and I think that, you know, a lot of you send in messages and give him credit and whatnot. But I just wanted to say personally thank you for putting this out there. It's just such an amazing resource. So about me, I'm obviously a recruiter on Tom's team at the Carolyn Group. So on my day day job is to call those of you out there who are looking for new opportunities and to help you find the right one for you.
And I'm a pharmacist by training, and I actually worked in medical affairs before pivoting to the recruiting side. So I was an MSL. We can talk about, you know, 4 years ago because I was actually starting orientation at a small biotech, as an associate director MSL at that point. So how time changes is pretty crazy. But I'm live in the in the Midwest. I'm a runner, and I'm a mom, and just really happy to be here. And Sarah is freaking awesome. You know, I don't usually curse on this show.
Not that freaking's a curse. I don't think it is. But, anyway, she's amazing. And if you guys haven't connected or followed her yet on LinkedIn, you should. And Sarah and I are partners in a a program called MSL Mastery. A lot of you guys have asked us about this. So this episode is sponsored by MSL mastery. And, and basically we designed a step by step guide, which is an online course called aspire MSL.
And it's for anyone who is looking to break into your first MSO role, whether you're coming from academia or you're a researcher or a clinical pharmacist, or you just are dying to get an MSO role. This podcast is free. There's a lot of resources available that are free. This happens to be something that we put together. We put a lot of time into it. There is a cost associated, but we've made a change recently. And, Sarah, do you wanna tell them about the change? Yeah. For sure.
So I think just to be really clear, there's 2 parts to Aspire MSL. And the first part is the online platform. So that is something that if you enroll in Aspire MSL, you receive an email, you get your login, and just like any other online course, you can go through the different modules at your own pace and complete them. So one of the things that we heard from those of you who are interested is just that the price points might be a little bit high.
So what we did was just take the online portion, what I just described, and that is truly Tom and I recording everything we know about leaving your first MSL role. All the things that we would tell you via the phone, we just recorded them and wrapped them up in an online course. That is all available to you in one package, and that is the introductory version to Aspire MSL.
We also have the full service, which is what we have been providing since we launched the program, and that includes group coaching calls. It includes an app where you can get, you know, quick answers to your questions. You can, you know, build a sense of community with other aspiring MSLs, which is really invaluable. Like, that that part of the program has just I I don't know. It it's something that's when I read the messages and I read how people are working together, it just warms my heart.
And I think that's what's gonna make the difference to the majority of people getting across the finish line. And then with the full service coaching program, you also get to practice your presentation. You get live feedback with that. So it's it's if you think about the online course plus coaching, that's the full package.
But just because of pricing concerns, and we wanted to make sure that we help as many people as possible, And we know that there's so many of you out there interested in being MSLs that are very talented. There are 2 tiers now, and we didn't have that when we first launched. Yeah. So, guys, check it out. If you're interested in working with Sarah and I to help you with your job search, and to get to your 1st MSL role, go to mslmastery.com.
You'll see all the different options, and we'd love to have you join us. Alright. Let's get to the podcast. So, Sarah, let's look back at 4 years, the past 4 years, which includes COVID. So this podcast was launched during COVID in March of 2020. So over the course of those 4 years, let's talk about what's changed. And I think probably one of the biggest things that chain that has changed is KOL engagement. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah. I mean, I already alluded to the fact that I was starting a new role when this all rolled out. So I was at a small company. We didn't we were one of those that didn't even have a KOL list. Right? We were building that as well and then just gonna do the traditional means of KOL engagement. And I think that if you look back 4 years ago, you know, pre COVID, we all predicted that things would shift eventually, and we would have some virtual encounters with KOLs. You know?
But 4 years ago, truly, most KOLs did not have Zoom, like, readily available to meet with MSLs. Like, that just wasn't even a thing. Maybe for the top, top tier KOLs every once in a while, but phone was the only means of communication other than in person. So it really shifted. And I think when COVID happened, everybody scrambled. And it took several months before people really had a means to, like, figure out this thing and think that virtual interactions could and would work.
There was just so much hesitancy and so much thinking, all these KOLs aren't gonna do this. This will never take off. We're just gonna return to normal. And then lo and behold, I mean, look at what happened. We're still having a lot of today virtually. So I think that's the first part.
I think the other thing that really happened with COVID is just the advent of omnichannel, and that was something else that we had been talking about, what, for 10 years, you know, that people want information when they want it and how they want it. But we weren't delivering this. I mean, let's not, you know it just wasn't happening. So I think when COVID hit too, we realized, like, gosh, people are now at home. They want things faster.
They don't wanna wait to get their information from an MSL that travels out in 3 weeks. They want the information now. And if they want it on their phone, they want it that way. If they want it on their laptop, they want it that way. They wanna talk to someone live on a phone call, whatever, they want it that way. And, you know, that's what omnichannel is and that really started to take off more so during that time.
I think that, you know, we saw, like, the digital opinion leader word starting to become more. I remember, you know, in that first scramble, you know, I came out of orientation. And just like all of, you know, the listeners out there that were MSLs back then, you all of a sudden started to think to yourself, well, what the heck is my value? If I'm not gonna be going out to see KOLs, you know, why would the company continue to pay me, especially for very long?
So the whole value proposition at that point was very key, especially at small companies. So digital opinion leaders became a thing that, you know, was like, wow. At least we could make a difference in those type of people. So I think it sped up things a lot as far as how we were going from traditional KOLs to DOLs and a mix in between. So that was a lot, Tom. I mean, but 4 years is a long time. And when you think back, it's pretty crazy.
And, you know, we always say, like, change is the only constant, but who would have expected this amount of change? In crazy. You know, 4 years. Yeah. No. It's been crazy, and and you hit on so many key things. And and, guys, like, Sarah's hitting on all these, you know, omnichannel and DOLs. And so, look, if you want information or if you wanna learn more about those things, there are episodes.
That's part of the whole reason we're doing this special edition is because there are episodes on all this stuff. So all the stuff that we're touching on has, there has been an episode on this. You just scroll back through all the listings and you'll see episodes on omnichannel, on DOLs, on virtual engagement and KOL engagement. So it's all in there. And I think if if I had to add when I guess this falls under KOL engagement, is that access has certainly changed.
Can you talk about that a little bit? Right. I mean, we went from, you know, you can't go see anybody face to face to, you know, you're, now you're gonna go back and you're gonna meet with them now virtually or face to face. And what's happened over the past 4 years, and this is me talking to MSLs on a daily base from a recruiter perspective so I know what it's like now, is that KOLs are honestly busier than ever before. So they were busy 4 years ago.
They were busy 10 years ago, but they certainly have more on their plate now than ever before. And the MSL world is also crowded now. So there's more MSLs reaching out to them for their time. So not only is it harder to get an appointment, but the appointments are usually shorter. So I think those two things added together mean that MSLs have to be thinking on their feet, you know, better than ever before and have to be really concise.
And they've gotta be creative when it comes to access because you can't just send an email and say, hey. I'm gonna be in Chicago, you know, 12th. Do you have time to meet? That's just not the way that it works anymore. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's interesting. I'm I'm talking to you as both a recruiter and and an MSL with your experience in in doing both. And you mentioned the you said the role. You mentioned the role of the MSL.
So I wanna ask you to put your recruiter hat on for a second Mhmm. And talk about what's changed in the role over these years. Like, have the titles changed? Has the career ladder changed? What have you noticed? Yeah. I mean, not to age myself too much, but when I first started, we only had one title, which is medical science liaison. Right? And then companies realize there's nowhere to build your career, so that's where you've got episodes on this too, Tom, the career ladder.
But titles have definitely changed. We're seeing more of the associate director type titles for more advanced MSLs. Field medical director would be another title. I think one new one in the last, I guess, over that span of 4 years is the community MSL. And some companies call them a little bit something different. And when I first saw it, I thought that it was more of a thought leader liaison, but it's not.
When you think of the tiers of KOLs, these MSLs would be going out to see maybe nurse practitioners, maybe your up and coming KOLs, but maybe just true community leaders out there, you know, someone in Iowa that might not be a KOL, but they might have an MSL now coming in to see them. So I think it depends on the company. Sometimes, the you know, these larger companies, especially, are designating a whole team to them, whereas others are just expanding their list of KOLs.
So whereas we might have had a list of 30 to 40 KOLs before, you know, I'm talking to people that have a list of, like, 80 to a 100 people that they're expected to meet with on a regular basis. So I think those are big things. The title changes, you know, the expansion of what MSLs do. We've always had the payer MSLs do. You know, that that has a different title as well.
But I think it's it's a great thing, I mean, to see the expansion of the opportunities for MSLs and to see some differentiation too in, you know, how more experienced MSLs or maybe those that are doing additional projects are recognized, via different titles. I think it's great. Yeah. It is. It's a I think it's great. And I think that what you're describing is the evolution really of the role. And, you know, you use the word expansion.
I think there's just a lot more opportunity now than ever before in these different titles. And I know that, you know, markets have shifted and sometimes they're when I say more opportunity, I'm talking to you, like, you know, you're an MSL. You could do a lot more things now with your career than, like, as you said, when you started. The other thing too is and I, you know, I just got back from the annual maps meeting, which was amazing. Maps always does such a great job.
And I just I I was overwhelmed by the number of vendors and how many vendors there are there and and what services are now available. So can you talk about the change or Yeah. The improvement in the amount of resources now available to the MSL? Yeah. It's a wonderful thing, but it can also add a little bit of confusion because there's just so many things. Sometimes I think it can lead to some indecision, just maneuvering all the different things. I mean, you just mentioned, like, like, maps.
Like, that didn't used to be a thing, you know, when I started as an MSL. There wasn't a way to connect with other MSLs outside of your own company. Certainly not the LinkedIn groups, the different, you know, webinars and, well, the podcast that you offer and some other additional podcasts.
Some of the other, you know, smaller organizations that are more regional based, You know, they're getting MSLs together and even aspiring MSLs, like, at different universities are starting to create little communities. So I love the way that MSLs are starting to and medical affairs are building connection with one another, and it's not too siloed in your own company. But I also think that it can be a little overwhelming to figure out, would you you know, where should I invest my time?
I'm already traveling. I'm already busy with my KOLs. Do I really wanna travel to an additional meaning? What's in it for me? So I think, you know, it's a additional, you know, opportunities are always a little bit of a challenge to figure out what's in it for you and how to navigate them. Yep. For sure.
And then we we obviously have to talk about when we're talking about change over these last 4 years, we have to talk about technology because there's been a lot of changes on the technology side. There's been some improvements. Again, there's always new resources and CRM tools and support tools, and there's all this stuff. So can you talk about what you've seen in technology and what MSLs are using now that maybe they weren't using 4 years ago?
Right. I mean, I started as an MSL when we would take the book, you know, with a paper copy of a poster and meet with the KOL. I think a lot of people listening will remember those days. And then we slowly maneuvered, you know, with a laptop and then an iPad. And now, I mean, there's such innovation that you can have in your hand to show KOL quickly information.
But I also think it's more important than ever to be able to, I mentioned it earlier, think on your feet and be able to share that data quickly. And then on the other end, I think, you know, you're talking about the systems that MSLs might have access to. So digital opinion leaders would be an example.
I mean, now you can have a service for your company where they're scraping the Internet to see what these DOLs are saying about your drug or about the disease state, and find help find you opportunities to go engage with those folks and make a difference in, you know, that manner. Insights gathering is a whole another bucket where I think it's exploding. I think, you know, MSLs have always collected insights, but, you know, spreadsheets were used and still are.
You know, word documents and, again, still are. But there's also these databases being created by vendors that are really cool and allow you to do a lot of neat ways of portraying the data and sharing it back to your cross functional colleagues. Yep. Awesome. Mhmm. So anything we missed as far as what might have changed, like changes? Yeah. The only thing I was thinking that I forgot to mention is just virtual MSLs.
And I think we saw, you know, we saw a company a couple companies build teams like that, and those haven't necessarily come to fruition and stayed like big teams, but we are seeing that most a lot of companies do have a couple, you know, virtual MSLs or at least one. So, you know, I think it remains to be seen what exactly that role will entail. We know that digital innovation positions are out there too that are supporting the MSL team.
So that's something that I think will, you know, continue as a career path and evolve, but Mhmm. Such a neat area. Yep. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, Tom, I mean, I talked a lot. Like, tell me, what do you think are some of the big things that you've seen in the last 4 years, both from recruiting and just talking to people on the podcast? Yeah. Well and you did an amazing job. Like, you covered so many, so many of the areas that that I think are are critical.
And I and from a recruiting perspective as a recruiter, just seeing what client needs are and what I've witnessed, I would say that one of the things that jumps out is hiring has changed. So hiring practices and the process has changed. You know, virtual has stayed a part of the hiring and recruitment process, and almost replaced the phone interview. Because I think people are so accustomed to being on camera and realize that, well, we can vet a candidate out so much better on camera.
Let's just do that as an initial step. Get to know as much as we can see the person, get a feel for that person, see how they dress, how they communicate, before so it actually makes it a little more difficult on the job seeker in the sense that the phone's kind of easier. It's usually, the phone screen is kinda like, you know, you can get over that barrier. But now you gotta get dressed. You gotta really perform on that on that virtual interview.
Mhmm. So I think that's one of the biggest changes, and I think there's more steps in the process now. I think that there's been more complexity to the hiring process now than before. And there's, and, and there's definitely a more competitive nature right now. I mean, to be honest, like we're in a down market and we've been in a down market Since last year, since 2023.
Yeah. And that's the first time I think pharma and biotech has seen this sort of pullback definitely within the last 4 years, but even like being in this business for almost 25 years, I haven't seen a pullback like this since I started. Right? So I'm looking at it, and there's a lot of reasons for it. A lot of people ask me, like, you know, why were there so many layoffs? And why is it you know, why is the market so competitive? And there's a lot of reasons for that.
I think some companies overhired, you know, after COVID. I think that the effect of the inflation reduction act has changed things and it's kind of gotten pharma a little on edge about what the future might look like, what profits might look like, what pricing might look like. I think that the funding has and, and the cost of money and the availability of funding has changed, especially on the biotech side.
So there's, there's been not a perfect storm, but there's been a lot of things that have affected the markets. But what I will say, and you guys know me, I am a glass half full kind of guy. I could tell you it's never as bad as it seems. Sometimes it's never as good either, but Mhmm. What, you know, what comes up must come down. I could tell you that we're not staying down. I'm already seeing a lot of things are changing for the better.
There's a lot of opportunities and a lot of projects being released and coming up. So I'm really excited and optimistic about the future for all of you guys, and I think that there's much better days ahead. So if anybody's on the market right now, keep your head up. Yeah. Keep doing putting the work in. Don't get discouraged. You're gonna find the thing. You're gonna find the right thing for you. So let's get back to and and we talked about what's changed in the last 4 years.
So what would you say has stayed the same over that course of time? Yeah. And this one's not just gonna be the last 4 years. I'm gonna say the last 24 years, you know, of or just even since MSLs started in existence, and that is the need to provide, like, the value, like, justify the value to your organization.
So we would have heard that back at DIA, you know, 20 years ago, how MSLs can prove their value to their cost functional colleagues, and we still hear that as a session at MAPS or any other medical affairs conferences. And if you talk to any medical affairs leaders, the regional directors, they'll all talk about justifying the size of their team, if they need new members of their team, you know, how they can show their upper management the value of their MSL teams.
So I think that's the number one thing, honestly, if, you know, aside from anything else that has stayed the same in the last 4 years, let alone last 20. It's so true. It's and it's funny. You mentioned, you know, conferences. Like, every single conference I go to, it is not just one of the topics. It's a part of several topics.
And there are resources and tools and there's tracking systems and there's all of these, these hopeful like, newly generated, things that are are put in place just to help the MSL show value. And I I just I think that that's gonna continue. It's we all know that it's very difficult because you're not tracking sales and there's no sales attached to it. So it's like, how do we compete with commercial counterparts? Because they are able to track via, you know, quantitative metrics.
Well, it's it's the quality and and the the interaction and the value that comes of that. And how do you justify? How do you show that? How do you prove that? So I think that that's definitely something that has stayed the same, but I feel like it's getting better. It's being realized. And the reason I say that is because of the the the way that medical affairs, the way that MSLs have been adopted into the industry. There's it's there's never been a better time to be an MSL.
There's never been a better time to be in medical affairs. Every company, every biotech pharmaceutical company realizes the importance. Maybe they can't quantify it, but they realize it. But it's still up to the the leaders, and the onus is on the medical affairs professionals to make sure that they prove it. So I know that that was, like, kind of a long, you know, add on to what you said, but it's so important.
What else what else would you say has stayed the same over the course of these last few years? Yeah. And the other big one is emotional intelligence. And I think that's this buzz phrase that people throw out sometimes. And, you know, they're like, yeah. Of course. That's part of it. But it truly is almost everything aside from scientific acumen that MSLs have always needed to have, and then now they need to have it.
I think it has the ink it's actually increased what you need to have now though with KOL access being difficult and then the the virtual encounters. I think what happened, you know, in 2020 was that a lot of people were like, well, you know, I'm gonna continue to see face to face, and we're less apt to adopt the virtual. Or if they did, they they do them, but they didn't necessarily figure out how to do them in the best way possible. And so emotional intelligence isn't just in person.
I think there's a lot of tricks and tapes that you can use virtually too. And so the best MSLs are figuring out those ways and really maximizing it. So even though there might be this push to see KOLs in person again, you know, making the most of either way, I think, is key. And this goes with cross functional colleagues too, whether it's, again, virtual or in person. You know, you just can't emphasize enough the need for the these types of skills. Totally agree.
And and we've we've had that topic continues to come up on this podcast. So if you're interested and you wanna learn more about it, we have some amazing, amazing guests that have talked about emotional intelligence. It's also another thing that when you go to conferences, there's always sessions on emotional intelligence. And, there's companies out there that just specialize in this. And I think that as an MSL, it is important to develop soft skills and develop your EQ.
And if you struggle with it, don't get nervous because, there there's there's you can you can learn this. This is something that is, is is teachable. Yeah. Some people, it comes easier than others, but, you can you can definitely get better at this. So I think that this is that's a really, really important thing to mention. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think, Tom? Like, what do you think has stayed the most the same?
You know, though, it's funny, and and I'm I'm tipping my hat a little bit because I just did an episode. It's coming out after this. Okay. And I'm not gonna give away the title of it, but one of the things that we talk about is that in medical affairs, after all these years since the inception of the first MSL was 1960 7. So it was over 55 years ago. It's as old as me. That's when I was born. So the MSL position was born 56 years ago, and there's still no standard.
There's no universal way that each company in pharma land, in the biotech world, like treats, not treats, but considers or, even what they call MSLs varies. The titling is all different. The levels are all different. The metrics are I mean, there's some similarities from company to company. There are some things that a lot of companies have adopted, that might be more consistent of the majority of what the way companies tend to do things.
But on a whole, you can't say that as an industry, there's any standard or universal way of doing business for field medical. And because of that, shows like this and and conferences and consulting companies and vendors Mhmm. Have to jump in to help organizations figure out what's best for them. So it's almost like each organization is tailoring their medical affairs teams to their needs. And that's, I think, why there's no standard, but that's just the way it's been.
I haven't seen anything to say that that has or looks like it will change. Yeah. I agree with that. Just being, you know, in big companies and in small biotechs, I mean, it's night and day. Sometimes what even your job responsibilities are, and that's honestly, guys, that's what makes it fun as a recruiter, just being able to talk to you out there and learn a little bit more about what kind of things you're doing on a daily basis.
And it's, you know, hearing how many virtual interactions you're doing, how many in person, what kind of projects you're getting to work on, and and what the career track is like at your individual company. It's really fun. And just to, you know, to add to that, Sarah, like, that what I just said isn't isn't bad. Yeah. Right. That's not a bad thing. Uh-huh. Yeah. It it just is what it is. I think maybe it's a good thing.
Maybe it leads to the dynamic nature of what medical affairs is, what the field based MSO role is. And maybe because of that, it is special. Maybe it's not meant to have any standard or any universal way that everyone adopts. But I think that and I I'm gonna say it again. I think that it's a really, really great time to be an MSL. It's a great time to be in medical affairs. I think that there's as any as with any industry, there's ups and downs.
And it and we might be in a little bit of a down market right now, but, the MSL is here to stay. Medical affairs companies departments are gonna continue to grow, and it's I'm excited about the future. Me too. Yeah. And we didn't even have time to talk about it today, but just the number of people that are interested and know what an MSL is, you know, is crazy too. You know, we used to have to call people and explain, hey. We've got a role as a medical science liaison.
And now, you know, people are just seeking it out, and and that's again why we started the course. So Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And if you guys are interested, hit us up. Follow us on LinkedIn, and reach out to us if we can be of any help. But, guys, as always, I really greatly appreciate your support of this show. Thank you for the last 4 years and the last 200 episodes. Thank you for sharing it. Thank you for subscribing.
We've got more subscribers now than we've ever had, and I I just want to invite you. If you haven't clicked that subscribe button, please do so, as just as continued support of this show, but also so that you don't miss anything because you'll just get notifications that give you at least the title of what's the next episode is. But I appreciate you all. I'm looking forward to the next 4 years. I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.
So, hopefully, you guys aren't gonna get sick of hearing from me. And, and, Sarah, thank you. Always, always, always love having you on. Thanks, Tom. Okay, guys. See you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.