Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Naman Islam, and he is an MSL with Sanofi. And we talk about his recent interview process and the modern complexities that exist first prior years of interviewing. So great conversation, really interesting stuff. I hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to check us out for MSL talk live, which is a once a month panel discussion, which we do on LinkedIn live. Look for the announcements on LinkedIn, and thank you for joining us.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Navan. Welcome back to the podcast. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tom. Really excited to be here. Yeah. Always a pleasure. So, guys, you may recognize this name. So Navhan has been with me before. We've done some podcasts, in the past. So he had come up with a great idea, which is very timely. So we're gonna get to that in a minute.
But why don't you do a quick introduction and tell everybody who you are, where you're from, all that good stuff? Yeah. Thanks, Tom. So my name is Nahan Islam. I'm a physician by training. I'm based in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. By the time this airs, I will have, started a new position as an MSL with Sanofi Canada, representing type 1 diabetes in Western Canada. Previously, I was an MSL with Syneos Health and GSK.
Before we start, I do need to state that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are my own and don't represent that of Sunofi Canada or any of my previous employers. Awesome. Cool. And before we jump into it, I also have a quick announcement. So I wanna invite all aspiring MSLs to a free webinar that Sarah Snyder and I are doing on May 1st. And that is called how to land an MSL position without experience. So check us out if you're on the market and you're looking for an MSL position.
I think, I think we have a lot of really good information. So follow me on LinkedIn. You'll see the announcements and you can register, online and and we'll see you at the webinar. So guys, we're going to talk about the complexities of the modern and current job market because interviewing. The interviewing process has changed pretty significantly in the past few years, I would say.
And so Navan, you, recently completed a successful job search and congratulations, by the way, I know you started a new job on Monday, correct? Thanks. Yeah. That's right. Awesome. That's great. So tell me, what what were you expecting as you entered into this job market? Meaning, what what was the experience that you were used to? Let's start there, and then we're gonna talk about how different it is now.
Yeah. So I started applying to industry in in 2018, and I think at the time, the the experience that I went through was very, representative of the system that had been in place for, like, 5, 10, you know, 20 years prior. And, basically, you know, we're gonna call this like a 4 step process. Right? Like, you get a callback from a recruiter. You talk to them for, like, 15, 20 minutes. They just basically, you know, ask you why you're interested in the position.
They verify your your therapeutic area experience. They, you know, maybe ask you a couple questions about work authorization and that sort of thing, and that's it. Right? And then the next step would be talking to the hiring manager. So this is, like, you know, 30 minutes to an hour. They're gonna be asking you some questions again, kinda why you're interested in the position, what do you bring to the table. They might ask you some behavioral questions, and and and, you know, that's that step.
If you get called back, it's typically the panel presentation. So 30 minutes to an hour, you typically present on a pivotal trial or some other seminal research. You know, 15, 20 minute presentation, 15 minutes, you know, q and a. Usually, there's other people on the panel that will ask you some questions as well and, you know, after an hour, it's over. And sometimes, but not always, you kind of need, like, a a blessing from, like, someone in senior management.
So this would typically be, like, the CMO. It could be the VP of medical affairs or, you know, your department head. You know, it's just more of like a sit down, get to know you kinda chitchat. They give, blessing to the hiring manager, and and that's it. So that was my experience in 2018, and there were very few deviations from that. And I think that's what a lot of people are used to.
I guess, if you haven't been on the market recently, that that's really pretty much the standard, kind of protocol for hiring and for interviews. So what what's it like now? Yeah. So I did a I was, you know, kind of involved in a in a job search, you know, kind of in in the pandemic area and then, you know, more recently for this this position that I'm starting. And, one thing I've noticed, for example, is that there might be additional rounds.
Like, let's say, you have, like, the 4 core rounds, but, like, one company, for example, that I was interviewing with had, like, 2 check-in rounds. So, basically, there was an extra interview with the hiring manager before, like, the official hiring manager interview and then one after, like, a prequel and a sequel. And what they told me was, like, my opportunity to, you know, just relay, like, how the hiring process was going.
It was an opportunity for me to ask questions of the company, for me to do all of these things, but, like, they were still you know, hiring manager was still asking me questions. Right? There was like, it was very obvious. There was still behavioral questions. It was still like a checklist. So it was kinda like part of the hiring manager interview even though, you know, they were considered, you know, quote, unquote, check-in rounds.
Another thing that happened is that, I had to provide answers in advance of stages. So for example, you know, if anyone's gone through this recently, like, a very common question that you might get is, can you give an example of when you, were able to explain a complex topic to a KOL? Right? And, usually, you just kinda like, you know, give an example. You kinda talk through it, and that's the most they want out of you.
So for this company, I had to provide it on paper in advance of the interview. So, basically, like, literally, I had to take a blank piece of paper. I had to find all the colored markers and pens so that I could find because I don't have any. And, basically, I have to, like, illustrate something for them and then basically scan it, send it to them, and then when, you know, when they had the actual interview, we talked about it. So that was, you know, a bit unexpected.
And then one thing that, I've noticed now a lot is that you get, like, asked more questions about strategy. So even though you're an MSL and we kind of all know what an MSL does, you know, the bread and butter of it, a lot of questions were were about strategy and, you know, territory management. But, you know, typically that was, you know, relegated to to other roles. So yeah.
It was, you know, these are all things I've noticed in the last couple of years and it seem to be just becoming the norm now. Yeah. I mean, it's it sounds like there's a lot more details involved now. And I don't know if maybe because since COVID and everything went virtual, companies started to get into the habit of, of additional screenings because they weren't meeting people live.
So now they had to figure out different methods and more steps and add ons to further vet out candidates and screen candidates and maybe compare. From 1 candidate to then, I don't know. I'm just spitballing here. So I'm not sure why. I don't know. You're not asking me why, but I'm just thinking like, there's gotta be a reason for all these details now versus before. And that might just be it. We may have just evolved into this new place where this is the new norm.
So it's not, and I'm saying this because I don't want job seekers to think that like it's you. Because I think a lot of times when when I talk to job seekers that are frustrated, they're like, I'm jumping through all these hoops, and I've never had to do this before. Why am I doing this now? Well, just realize it's probably not you. It's probably not a knob on thing. It's probably not a you thing. It's probably just the way the evolution of the interview process has gone post COVID.
Now, again, I'm just spitballing, but it sounds from what you're saying that there were add ons and additional steps. So was there anything that they added on that you just completely didn't expect? Yeah. So one one thing I had to do, was a situational awareness. I think probably most people on the podcast or listening to the podcast are probably familiar with, like, SWOT analysis. There's also, like, c's, 4st, 5 courses, you know, you know, pick your poison.
So, again, that's something that's, like, typically, reserved for, like, medical advisers or scientific advisers or someone applying for, like, a strategic position. Right? Usually, MSLs are responsible for kind of executing the the, medical plans, so to speak, not necessarily, you know, having any input on that. So, that was a first for me. If my land manager is listening to this, he's probably having a chuckle.
But I had to do, like, a full on situational awareness, like, put it in PowerPoint and actually present it to to my panel. So that was, a bit of a a a reach or something new for me, we'll say. One thing another thing I had to do was a a personality test. And it wasn't just like one of those in a 5 question, things on on social media. Like, answer these 5 questions. We'll tell you what kind of pain, what suits you best. Right? It was just kind of like it was like a full on, personality test.
So something very similar to, like, the the Myers Briggs thing. And it was kind of funny at the time. It was like, you know, when I logged on to the portal, it was like, this will take you 20 minutes. And I was like, great. I can do this during my lunch break. No problem. And it ended up taking me an hour because it was like yeah. It was like 45, 50 questions and, you know, you could tell, like, it was statistically validated that we're matching, paired questions.
And, then you kinda, like, wondering, like, what are they looking for? Right? Like, are they are they looking for a certain personality to maybe, like, round up a team or maybe are they looking for someone that's a little more driven because that's just the company culture. Right? So, you know, it's it really, like, you know, plays, tricks with your mind. And then the other thing was a bio slide.
So, normally, like, you know, they ask you questions and, you know, just typically in the course of of talking, you you talk about your family, you talk about your hobbies, your interests, that sort of thing. But for this company, I actually had to put it in a PowerPoint and with some pictures and they were like, you know, it's up to you, personal or professional. We want, you know, a 5 to 10 minute presentation, about you.
So that in itself is kind of a dilemma because, like, on one hand, it's like, you're applying for a job and there's a certain picture you want to paint. But at the same time, it's also like an opportunity for you for for them to kinda get to know you. Right? And and are you gonna be, like, a good fit for this team? So it's like, okay. Do I talk about my family? Do I talk about my pets? Do I talk about my hobbies? You know, does this picture look make me look good, this or that?
So it's kind of a dilemma in itself. Right? You know, what what kind of picture do you wanna paint? So these were all, you know, a little unexpected things I had done before, in in previous years while interviewing.
Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting because I think that again, evaluating all this detail, I think that it it's it might be because we have access to a lot more information and tools and techniques now than we ever did with just I mean, it's not that we didn't have the internet 5 years ago, but I'm just saying it's it's so easy to administer these tests and tools now. It's not like you need full departments to do personality tests. Everything's online.
The barrier of entry for these things is is really nothing, and they're inexpensive, and it's just it's just a matter of of having somebody implement it. So maybe because of the fact that it's become so accessible to have these different steps, companies are just like, well, we might as well incorporate that because that'll help us to navigate and narrow down the the applicant pool better maybe than we have in the past. I don't know. I'm spitballing here.
So I think there's a lot of reasons, but now that you've gone through this most recent process, again, you're starting a new job. So you just finished this whole thing. Why do you think after if as you look back and look at all these things that have changed, why do you think companies are doing all this stuff now? Yeah. There's, a couple of reasons, and I think they're all kind of related.
You've you've brought up in in some of your more recent podcasts, you know, there there are more people trying to break in than than ever. But the the number that, again, kind of progressed to each round really hasn't changed. So just as an example, back in 2018, some recruiters, you know, would would give kinda give me feedback and they're like, okay. You know, we're interviewing, or sorry. Like, a 100 people applied. We're going to be screening about 30 to 40 of them.
10 of them will speak to the hiring manager. 5 of them will be inter you know, invited for a panel presentation. And then we'll make a job offer to 2 people, right, like the top candidate and then a backup. So right now, there could be, like, 500 people applying for that same position. That doesn't mean that they're going to be screaming 5 times as many people. It doesn't mean, like, 5 times as many people are gonna be talking to the hiring manager.
It doesn't mean, like, 5 times as many people are going to be interviewed or invited for for a panel presentation? So they need to, I think move, like, the harder steps earlier in the process to help, as you said, you know, kind of, you know, figure out kind of who's qualified and who's not qualified. I think second is that, you know, speaking to your point about, you know, accessibility is that, you know, we we know what the process is. Like, candidates know.
So, like, you know, 10 years ago, you know, we didn't have all these resources like MSL Society. We didn't have, like, you know, podcasts and all of these kinds of things. So maybe candidates were kind of caught by surprise or maybe candidates, you know, weren't able to prepare for all the questions that they received, like the behavioral questions. So nowadays, you can almost expect behavioral questions and we kinda know what they are. Right?
Like, for example, like, I I don't think I've ever gone through an interview where I wasn't asked at least once, Can you give me a time can you give us an example of when you had a conflict with a client or a a physician or a KOL, and how did you resolve it? Right? That's just like a bread and butter behavioral question. So candidates these days, everyone's going into the interview prepared to answer that question. So, you know, it doesn't help us to differentiate candidates from one another.
So, again, we have to, you know, use, other steps or other asks to help figure out again who who do we want, who do we not. And then I think the last thing, again, to kind of to your point, post COVID, is that MSLs are expected to have more input. So I think MSLs, are are are seem to be having more input on on medical strategy. Are there formally or informally? In one of your earlier podcast, you mentioned AI might be doing some of the heavy lifting now.
So, you know, MSLs might be expected to do other things. Right? Like, what are they going to do with their time if they're not working on insights? And then, you know, just as an example, I think, you know, some company cultures, they they just want MSL to do other things. So there was one company that I was interviewing with and they were like, we expect MSL to actually have to be involved with actual research.
Like, you're expected to actually, work with a company and essentially act essentially as an internal IIS, work with external KOLs, do research and publish a paper involving our products. Right? And and it's not something that's typically, it's not something that's typical for for MSL. So I think all of those things kind of are all snowballing together, and this has kind of led to the kind of the current situation.
Yeah. I mean, I think that makes sense because there's way more involved in the MSL role now than ever before. It's become more complex. It's just there's a lot more expected. The roles evolved in a lot of ways. It's, it's advanced into a whole nother place. So in turn, it kind of makes sense that the interview process is more complex and the process of vetting candidates and screening candidates has become more complex.
And I think, I mean, I don't want to continue to repeat myself, but I think that this may just be the normal evolution of the hiring process. I don't think it's ever going to get any easier. I guess if it were a less competitive market, Maybe. I don't know. I don't know if, if that's necessarily one of the main criteria, but I think that all the stuff that we're talking about right now, hopefully is gonna help the job seekers of today.
People that are actually in the interview process now, or people that are listening to this in the future will realize it's gonna require more preparation time. It's going to require. You know, a lot of extra effort and detail. You mentioned the the conflict resolution behavioral question, which is which is very common. But it's like that's great, but it's like almost hiring managers are expecting everybody to do a really good job on those questions because they are expected. Right?
There's so many resources and tools available for us to prepare. So knowing that, having gone through this, what advice do you have for job seekers in what they should be doing to help better prepare right now? Yeah. So I think the first thing is you have to be ready for any ask at any step of the process. So, you know, if, I think, you know, for example, like, previously, recruiters would not ask you behavioral questions. Right?
They're just kinda, like, you know, going through the checklist and deciding whether you speak to the hiring manager or not. So I have I can think of a couple times where I have been asked a behavioral question by the recruiter, and I think that's just part of their screening process. So we can't, rely on kind of the old model anymore. You have to be ready for for really any ask at any step of the process. So don't just be like, okay. You know, I'm just talking to the hiring manager or sorry.
I'm just speaking to to the recruiter. I don't have to be ready for this. It's not gonna come up, because it could come up. And and if you're not ready, you know, they're gonna figure that out really quickly. Second, I think you you you know, again, to to your point is, like, you really have to be ready to kind of dedicate the time to focus on the task at hand. So one thing I've noticed is, like, the turnarounds for, interviews are are getting shorter.
So for example, like, for panel presentations, it's typically now, like, 48 or 72 hours. And that can be over a weekend. So I have one company that basically sent me a pivotal paper on Friday morning, and they're like, we need you to present this on Monday morning.
So if you have family, if you're working, you know, a full time job, if you've got school, it kinda puts you in a really awkward spot because it's like, okay, you know, do I blow off my family because I need to, you know, do this for myself, do this for for my future or, you know, am I going to tell the company this is gonna work out for me and and move on to something else?
So, you really have to be ready, to just really sit down at your computer and, like, turn off your phone, close the door, and just, like, get to work. It's, you know, it it's really time consuming. And then I think the last thing is you you really need to kinda bring up the big guns very early. Right?
Like, if it's a very competitive market, you are probably competing against people who have very similar qualifications and and very similar to drive to to you, and you you really need to kind of bring your a game. So, you know, back in the day, I remember when I first put together my panel presentation, I would just use whatever clip art was available in Microsoft Office and usually it would just do the job. Right?
You could just kinda cut and paste graphs from the Pivotal trials and and that was that. So for this most recent job, you know, like, I remember I had to go on FireRendr and and do diagrams. And I spent a couple of hours just on 2 diagrams because those diagrams weren't available on the Internet, wasn't available on the pencil paper. And there was a story I was trying to tell when I was doing my panel presentation, and I I just didn't have the graphics to support it.
So I went on BioRender and played around and, you know, kinda got the diagrams that I wanted. And, you know, after I've been offered the job, the the national director had told me, like, it was very obvious that he put the work into this. It was was very obviously professionally done, and we appreciated that. So you really just have to bring your a game. Like, you have to go all in, and give it give it the best that you have because you're not gonna get another chance. Right?
Like, this is your shot. You know, make sure make sure that you're doing the very best that you can. Well and you're competing against others. It's it's you're not going uncontested. So, I mean, that's great advice where if you don't go all in, you're going to lose out to somebody else that is that's truly the bottom line. So not only. Are you getting tested by the cup.
So the company is these companies are finding new ways to test candidates and to challenge candidates just by all the hoops and things that you're explaining that you kind of have to go through and prepare for and execute on. All these different things. But then you also have to realize, as you're going through this preparation process and the execution of this, you're competing against somebody else that may be same or more qualified than you.
So I think this is, I think this is a really important episode in kind of a, it's not a wake up call, but I think it's a realization of just how competitive and intense the job search process is now, how important it is that you're prepared and proactive, and what you need to expect. So looking at. All of those things that I just discussed. Like, are there any other, like, pitfalls or challenges maybe that you wanna share with people that you saw?
Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a really good point, Tom. So you you've brought this up in in many previous podcasts, but definitely don't lie or embellish anything. It it will come out sooner or later. Even just, like, going back with a personality test, like, you might think to yourself, okay. I've done this profile before, and maybe they're looking for, like, a d. Right? Those are the drivers. Those are the people that, you know, get the results, and I'm gonna try and punch the answers.
But, like, these are these tests have been around for decades. They're just simply validated. You you you can't fool them. Right? And even when they're talking to you, you know, they they'll figure it out, like, this isn't this doesn't mesh with what we have. Right? So, you know, be be honest with yourself. Be honest with the company. You don't really know what they're looking for, and it may turn out that you are exactly the right candidate. Right? So just be yourself. Be honest.
Don't don't try and lie or embellish or deceive anyone at any step of the process. Second, you know, that being said, just, you know, be a little careful what you draw attention to. Right? So I remember, well, you know, way back when when I was backpacking through South America, a lot of the countries aren't very friendly and, you know, tourists can usually get by, but they usually hassle the locals sometimes.
So I remember, like, when I was, I think, in in Ecuador, you know, we were all sitting at this beachside cafe just drinking beers, just talking about whatever. And these people I talked about had they had basically, like, run across the border from Colombia, I think, because there was some situation, there was some tension, and and, you know, they they just wanted to keep backpacking.
So, they would get up in the middle of the night, like midnight, 1 AM, run across, like, this field, a 100 couple of 100 meters to get to the border with with Ecuador, and then they would present themselves to customs and then get into the country. So it makes for a great story. But if you're to put you know, if you're doing this on your on your bio side, thinking to yourself, hey. This is gonna be, like, an amazing story. This is gonna get their attention. This is, really exciting.
It also kinda gives the impression that you don't respect the rule of law and basically take, you know, unnecessary risks. Right? And in this industry, like, that's not what the hiring manager is looking for at all. Right? So just be careful what you draw attention to. You know, again, you're you're trying to paint a a picture of yourself. Lastly, always remember to focus on on the positive. So I've learned this lesson the the hard way many times. I think it's just human nature.
You know, your your caveman amygdala is just trying to prevent you know, protect you from all the dangers in the outside world. And we sometimes tend to focus, like, on the negative. So you brought up in many, you know, of your podcast, you know, people are asked, like, why, you know, why are you looking for a new opportunity or why did you leave your previous position? And people tend to sometimes get bogged down on the negative. Right? And it's understandable.
Like, maybe you're coming from a toxic work environment. Maybe, you know, you're just being unfulfilled. But you really have to kinda turn that into a positive. Right? Like, it's this isn't you know, the company that you're applying for, like, you know, you you brought this up, you know. You know, what are you bringing to the table? You know, how are you going to make us better? How are you going to represent our team, our portfolio, our company?
So, you know, you you really have to focus on the positive. So let's just say, for example, you know, in a previous position, you know, you just weren't getting the opportunities you were looking for. Right? So, you know, that that's fine. You can say that. But then, you know, turn it into a positive. Say, you know, I've spoken to some of your MSLs and sales reps. They talk about what, you know, what a great work environment you have.
They've been talking about all the opportunities and side projects they've been able to do. That's something I'm really interested in. That's something I would really like to do or apply, you know, myself to. That's why I want this position. Right? So then, you know, you've essentially taken kind of a negative and and turned it into a positive. So, you know, all those, all those, focus on the positive.
Yeah. And I, I, I wanna point out that the three things you just mentioned are all things that company is going to be looking for. They're going to be looking to see if you can support the claims you're making. So if you're fabricating something, I'd say say fabricating, I'm not gonna make assumptions that people lie, but sometimes people exaggerate.
So it's difficult to exaggerate in this day and age because we have so many resources to kind of back check and fact check and see what exactly people have done. So you have to be careful because companies are gonna be looking for that. They are gonna absolutely look and pay very close attention to what you are pointing out.
So the stories you tell, the information that you share, how you share it, like all that's gonna be evaluated against other candidates, and it's going to position you in a certain way. So be careful what you highlight. And then the negativity thing is real, man. It's real. You employers are going to lull you into a false sense of security so that you'll let your guard down, and then you'll start being your true self, whatever that is.
So if you go negative naturally, just and I'm not saying that it, you know, it just might be your personality. So if you're in a situation where company asks you, tell me about why you want to leave your current position and you really should practice. A diplomatic answer. And like Navhan said, you want to make sure that there's a positive spin to that.
And you're not just bashing or going negative, whether it's on that question or any other question, because companies are looking for that sort of thing. Not only are they looking for it, they may actually try to, I'm not going to use the word trick, but they might try to get you to worth, want to see how you are. When you let your guard down, they might get really, really super comfortable. I've had managers curse in interviews. That doesn't mean you need to curse in the interview.
You don't have to match that. A lot of people are like, oh, well, match the energy. Yeah. But be careful because it might be a trick. So that's just a couple of things that I wanted to add to that because I see it happen all the time. So last, I don't wanna take up too much more time, but I do wanna give you one last. I know that there's gotta be one more tidbit, maybe some piece of advice that maybe we didn't get to. So final thought. Yeah. So it's it's a really tough job market.
Again, I'm I'm speaking for for for Canada in particular, but from from what I've been hearing, it's a really tough job market in the US as well. So I think you need to brace yourself. There is gonna be, like, a lot of disappointment. Someone on one of your previous podcasts, she mentioned, like, she had applied to, like, 70 positions. Right? So, like, there's gonna be a lot of disappointment. I think you really do have to to kind of brace yourself for that, but you have to really, keep at it.
Like, I think there really is a a company in a position, that's right for you. It's just a matter of, like, you know, you when you're going through the interview, like, you have to kind of prove it to the company. Right? You have to prove that you're absolutely the perfect candidate for this. So, you know, you have to keep at it. There's a couple of podcasts I kinda wanna highlight that I found were were really helpful.
So you this one from last fall, it's, like, I think 13 common mistakes that that people make. So, you know, have a listen to that. You had more recent podcast, how job seekers can stand out in a crowded market. Definitely worth a listen. There's a podcast about grit, and, there's podcast about don't going alone. So, you know, having, you know, someone to kind of, be your partner in crime, so to speak, definitely very, very, helpful and and and, it helps a lot.
I think second is, like, don't forget the basics. So there are again, sort of to our earlier point, there are so many resources available now that that weren't available 5, 10, 15 years ago. So, you know, MSL Society has a couple of courses that you can do as an aspiring MSL, you know, either in person or online. You you know, you, Tom, you're starting to offer things to to aspiring MSLs, you know, the podcasting question. There's also MAPS and a whole bunch of other organizations. Right?
So go to their website, see what's available, see if you can kinda take a a something that will, give you the foundation that you need to to be a better applicant, to be a better candidate. I also really strongly recommend going to a conference, and and meeting people meeting, people in person.
So nothing really beats showing up face to face, introducing yourself, shaking someone's hand, giving them a smile, giving them a business card, giving them your your, you know, your elevator pitch, so to speak. Because all things equal, hiring managers, you know, it's better to do the double let you know than the double you don't. Right? So they have a whole bunch of applicants. They're not sure who would advance to the next round. They're going to remember, okay.
There was this guy I met at, you know, this conference and seemed really friendly. So all things being equal, they're gonna offer the interview to the guy who was friendly as opposed to the guy they don't care. Right? So nothing beats that. Like, I strongly, strongly recommend, networking in person and doing these workshops and making yourself a better candidate. Lastly, I would say, you know, considering how competitive it it is, consider, like, professional coaching.
So there are companies and individuals that offer professional, like, coaching when it comes to, like, interviews or working on your resume or whatever it happens to be. So if you feel like you're stuck at a certain step, and you've tried your best and, you know, you just can't seem to get any further, you might need, like, an outside perspective. Right?
And you might need someone who does this kind of for a living and kinda knows the system inside and out and can really kinda tease apart what the issue is and help you to fix it. You know, those things, you know, do cost money, but the way I look at it is, like, you're making an investment in yourself. Right? So, you know, traveling to conferences costs money, but it's an investment in yourself. Right? Taking one of these courses, yes, it costs money, but it's an investment in yourself. Right?
So, you know, having a a careers coach or, you know, paying for, you know, counseling or or coaching services, yes. It does cost money. But again, it's an investment in yourself. And, I I think it can really help, if you feel that you're you're stuck somewhere. It's great advice. I mean, everything you just said, great advice. I agree with all of it wholeheartedly. I'm a big networker, so the in person thing about going to conferences wholeheartedly agree.
And then as far as the resources, I think you just have to figure out what is the biggest need for you before you select a resource. And I, and the reason I say that is, you know, and I appreciate, Navan, I appreciate you mentioning that prior episodes on this podcast, this podcast is free. So there's answers for a lot of the questions that you have somewhere in the episodes of this podcast.
The difference though, is it's free, but you might have to go through a lot of information to get the answers that you need. So. If you're seeking a position, and you're having trouble and you need to find a course or a coach, well then maybe that's the next step, but that's going to cost money. And if you have the budget, great. But if you're looking for and you think you need a certification of some sort, I I would be careful because the certification is not gonna get you a job.
It's gonna get you a certification. You're gonna educate yourself on something. So just understand the distinctions. This is why Sarah Snyder and I started the aspire MSL program because it, we walk you through a step by step process on what you need to do to get a job. And again, I'm not here to plug that.
I'm just saying that the whole purpose of that was if you're not getting the answers through the free resources that are out there or anything else that you've gone to while there is a place that you can go where you can get the answers. It's just going to cost you a couple of bucks. And then finally, you had mentioned it's funny that you mentioned the episode of 13 common interview mistakes. So that was the most downloaded episode of 2023. Okay. Believe it or not.
So clearly it's helped a lot of people. So if you guys are interested, check that out. Navhan, this was awesome. This was really, really good information. I feel like people that are on the job market may need to listen to this again. If you got value in this, please share it with with other people that are on the market because I think that they will benefit from this. But, my friend, appreciate you coming on. You're awesome.
And best of luck in your new job as you start on Monday, and we'll keep in touch. Thank you for coming. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tom. Always a pleasure. Awesome. Okay, guys. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.