Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My very special partner and guest, Sarah Snyder, is here again on this podcast. Guys, I love when Sarah comes on. She's been a part of my life for three years now. Almost is it exactly three years, Sarah? No. It's over three years. I just had my thirty year anniversary with the Carolyn Group. Oh, man. Well, it's just been such an amazing and awesome, awesome ride.
So I always love when Sarah joins me, and we're gonna talk today about the ideal road map for new MSLs. Now the reason we're doing this is because we've got so much demand for from newer MSLs that are struggling, that are looking to kinda figure out their way through the first year to two years that we thought that this would be an important topic. Now, coincidentally, there's an episode that I did with Sam Buckley Mhmm. Called the checklist for new MSLs.
It was the most downloaded episode in all of 2024. Here's the crazy thing. Sam and I, that episode came out or we recorded it exactly one year to the day today. Crazy. So this is like it it's meant to be. We're supposed to we're supposed to cover this. But, before we get into it, this episode sponsored by MSL Mastery. So, Sarah, do you wanna tell everyone what MSL Mastery is and some of the awesome stuff going on?
Yeah. Definitely. So MSL Mastery is Tom, me, and Katrina Pellet teamed up together to really solve problems in the industry. I don't have any better way to describe it. When I was thinking you were gonna ask me, oh, we're sponsoring it. What are we gonna say about it? We're creating what we see as gaps and needs out there. And one of the big gaps was in communities. So we have a community for new MSLs. We also have a community for rising leaders.
So I'm really excited about that, and we're doing team training now. There were a lot of gaps in that. One of our most popular ones is AI for medical affairs, so that one's great. But we also have some more basic access and, insights and that type of training. So lot going on, including, obviously, the Aspire MSL program, which most people are familiar with. Yeah. Which is helping so many people. So if you guys are looking for more information on that, go to mslmastery.com.
And interestingly enough, so this episode, that we call the ideal road map is based upon an article that Katrina wrote and published, and a pro and and some of the information that was put together for some of the newer MSLs that we've been working with. So what I'm gonna do this is Mhmm. Kind of different from what I normally do. Yeah. I'm actually gonna share my screen.
Now for those of you that are driving or in the gym or you're listening to this on Spotify or Apple, you're not gonna see this, obviously. So we're gonna walk you through what this looks like. But for those of you who wanna see it, two things. You can either go to YouTube and watch it on video Or, Sarah, can they down they could download this. Right? Yeah. Actually, if you go to mslmastery.com and then click at the top blog and scroll down, look for this particular article.
And the cool thing is when you get to the article, you'll be able to download a new MSL checklist, and it's brilliant. Katrina put it together, and, it's it's not just pretty. It's actually very tactical and useful. I think if I was a hiring manager, manager or an aspiring MSL that's thinking to yourself, what is it actually gonna look like to be an MSL? Go download it. It's free. Yeah. And you just like Sarah said, you go to our blog. Go to MSL mastery.
Go to the blog, and then it's called the road map road map every new MSL needs to succeed in year one. So and so I'm looking at it right now, and it starts with, like, when you look at the road map, it starts at months one to three building your foundation. But, Sarah, let me let's go before that. I wanna go before that. Let's just say there's folks that are aspiring MSLs or brand new MSLs. Let's talk about, like or I should say, aspirings.
What should people do to prepare themselves for their day one? Mhmm. I mean, the very first one, Tom, and a lot of people might think they have this because of COVID, but you've gotta get a home office ready that is gonna be very efficient, very practical where you can get things done. I know that the MSL role is going to be a travel role, but working from your couch isn't really gonna be sustainable. So get yourself a designated area, get organized, start to feel like you're in MSL.
And then if I wanted to add one additional thing in here, it would be to you might already be doing this, but I'm gonna tell you to uplevel it a little bit and read in your specific therapeutic area. You can set yourself some Google alerts or PubMed alerts and also subscribe to some of the free pharma, sites that collaborate all this information and send you those so you can see, like, a fierce pharma and see what's new in the industry.
And get in the habit of taking at least ten minutes a day and scrolling through those and just picking up the high level trends in your particular therapeutic area. Awesome. That's great advice. So alright. You get the job, and you're day one and or month one to three. And on this road map, it says building your foundation. So what does it take to build their foundation? Yeah. Well, your laptop shows up at the door, and then you turn it on.
And all of a sudden, you get these emails with typically two things. One is gonna be a lot of scientific articles to read, and then two is gonna be a lot of compliance modules to do. So as you're going through this, most companies are not gonna tell you, hey. Do this amount of thing per day. Spend two hours doing this.
They're they're not gonna give you that kind of minutia, so you've gotta figure out in that first month one through three how are you going to time block so that the compliance modules don't get done the day before or the night before you know, that night before, like, with 11:59, don't do that. You gotta space out this stuff. But that's what the building your foundation is. It's a lot of therapeutic training, a lot of company specific training. Every company is gonna be a little bit different.
Some of them are gonna be very structured and give you, tests and different assessments along the way. I spoke with an MSL yesterday who has two assessments, one at the end of six weeks and then one at the end of eight weeks. Sometimes they'll have you come on-site during those first three months and do an assessment on-site. Sometimes it'll be virtual. Whereas other companies are a little bit more laid back and what you know, might you might talk to your manager and then head out in the field.
Sometimes there'll be some field rides. So building your foundation is exactly what it sounds like. You're getting that scientific foundation and then also familiarity with the company. Is this when the certification happens in this It usually is. So that would be if they have any kind of assessment, it would be that six to eight week or maybe the twelve week mark would is when that would happen. And sometimes that's a formal presentation.
The one that I heard about the other day was more like a simulation, so lots of companies doing it different ways. Can you talk about the importance of the certification and how to go about it and why you need to take it seriously? We just actually, in the past, like, couple weeks, I've heard of a few people that didn't make it through. I don't wanna scare anyone, but I've heard of a couple of people that didn't actually make it through the certification and lost their jobs.
Can you talk about that piece? Yeah. I've heard a lot of that about that too, Tom. I think it's becoming more common. These are tough. They hire the best of the best people, and then they expect you to rise up very, very quickly. And it can be a lot to take in. When you're getting these scientific articles, what happens is you don't always know what you should be reading. So you're reading it, and you think you're retaining some of it.
But when you have 14 articles to read in two days, you're not gonna know all of the things. And then you look at the slides, and sometimes they'll give you a hundred slides to look through and say you're gonna be presenting on this information. And it's when you haven't worked in pharma before, it's just hard to understand what specifically that you need to know, what's nice to know, what it's okay to say. I'll look that up and get back to you.
I personally remember being quite nervous about my own one of my own certifications, and I had to fly down. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was in the Dallas Airport, Walked in. We did it in the hotel airport. They picked a business room at that hotel, whatever that is, Hilton maybe, and they just fired questions. So it makes you almost wanna cry. You can't. Don't cry. Just don't cry. Don't cry. Stay cool about it. You know, breathe.
But it's one of those things you gotta be able to talk and learn on and and show that you've learned the material, and now you can share it in a way that it would be retained on the other end. Got it. Awesome. Okay. So now we are at months three through six gaining momentum. So let's talk about that. So if you hadn't already, at that point, you're gonna have your KOL list.
Or if you're at a smaller company, sometimes you're gonna be developing it yourself, but let's assume that you're at mid to large or at a small company that has some type of list to give you. This is when you're doing the job. You're starting to look up your KOLs. You're reaching out to them, doing some introductory visits, getting to know your cross functional colleagues. You're gaining momentum. You're going down the road. You are in MSL now, and you're doing the things that it takes to do.
Awesome. And we we're starting to get a lot of people coming to us for to join our our RISE program at at this kind of in that, you know, middle stage where they're getting overwhelmed and they wanna be successful. Can you tell everybody a little bit about what the RISE program is? Yeah. Yeah. So our RISE community is truly a community. It's this is something I've wanted to do for years. I missed having a community other than the people that I was working with, which they're great.
But as a new MSL, you might be the only new person or there might be a couple new people on your team, but you don't have a place to ask all the questions or get the support. And what happens at this month three to six is you start to reach out to KOLs. Sometimes you don't hear back. Like, how am I supposed to do this job if I can't even get KOL access? And then what happens? You think, I'm not any good. I wasn't good enough for this. I barely made it through the interview process.
I'm just not a good MSL. And then you're like, I'm gonna get fired. Like, that's what starts to happen to you. If KOLs can't respond to you, how am I gonna do my job? So those are the kind of feelings that you start to naturally have. It's hard to maintain your confidence, especially in that the one to three mark is hard, but that three to six month is, I would say, is even harder. So in the Rise community, we provide tools, resources, templates to really help you get over that, difficult time.
Yeah. I love it too. It's such a great group, and I love working with everyone. And, yeah. So if you guys are interested, reach out. We'd love to, invite you into that group. Then you get to month six. I think the so for those not looking at this right now, we're at this point on this document, on this graphic, where we're talking about months six through 12. And this is where you would become a trusted partner. So let's talk about that.
I love how Katrina designed this because after month six, it goes if you're not seeing this, guys, it goes a little bit downhill. And the reason it goes downhill is things get a little bit easier because you start to figure out, okay. I know where I go on my computer. I know that I can reach out to these k wells. Oh, I'm going to this therapeutic conference, and I feel like I kinda know what I'm doing. So you're coasting a little bit. But then she has it about halfway through.
You're going back up a hill again because the expectations keep year mark, and you're expected to do more. You're expected to be more of a trusted partner to these KOLs that it feels like just yesterday you could barely get access to. So there's a lot of expectations there. There's one other thing I wanted to highlight here in that becoming a trusted partner section. When I look at this, I think KOLs, but it's also with your cross functional colleagues.
So your account managers, your health outcomes counterpart, your boss. Like, this is when you really start to show that this is the kind of person they came on board. They are doing what they said they could do. So your goal should be to be trusted at that point. You don't have to be this superstar. Most hiring managers will say, don't try to be a superstar in that first year. Just learn the job, but you can definitely become a trusted partner. Awesome.
And what's nice about getting through so now we're at that point where we're through the first twelve months Yep. Which that's a real milestone for a couple of reasons. So when you get past your first year in any job, especially the MSL position, you just you kinda feel like you've earned that badge of, I'm still new, but I'm no longer new. Like, you're not brand new. You're still kind of a newer MSL, but you're you're getting up there. And you're entering into year two. You have momentum.
You know the job. You have relationships now. And you're past training. You're certified. You're, like, doing all of those things that you set out to do. It's becoming starting to become more second nature to you, and now you're building your career. So we're gonna talk about year two and beyond, which we, Katrina has drive impact and deliver results. So, Sarah, talk about that piece. Yeah. And stories are always the best way to describe this.
So we actually on our Aspire MSL group coaching call, we had a previous member hop on and share with our Aspire community a little bit about what his first few months have looked like. So, Tom, I'm gonna go back for just a second because this is related to your question. But he was explaining how during months through one through three Mhmm. Paying attention to what types of side projects they were working on, what committees were they a part of. And he was he was surprised.
He's like, the one thing that's really shocked me is how many opportunities are out there. Obviously, first and foremost, my responsibility, especially in the first couple years, is gonna be KOL engagement. But he said, you know, the opportunity to potentially join one of these committees once I prove myself that I can do my field work, that's really cool. And I'm just gonna take this year to learn. What are people doing? Where would my interest and my skill set best help out the company?
So I think as you look at year two and beyond, those are the types of things that you can look at. You can look at the different committees that you could volunteer for. You can definitely be in close conversations with your manager about where your skill set might be a best fit. Don't wait for someone to come find you and say, what kind of projects that you do wanna work on? Be proactive. This is your career, and you're an entrepreneur as an MSL.
So just like your KOL field development, your internal results within medical affairs and beyond are also up to you. I love it. I love it. I think that and I I Nick was awesome. You know, having having him come back and share was was amazing. So as as we so, obviously, people that are listening to this, you're probably in all different kind of areas or or, tenure in your career.
So as we are getting through that first year, looking into that second year, Sarah, what advice do you have for people to go from that year year from year one to two and how they can really consider leveling up and improving and establishing themselves as an MSL? Well, the biggest piece of advice is just don't get down on yourself. Yeah. I think the expectations on MSLs in 2025 are much higher than they were even a few years ago.
And one of the things, Tom, I think that is important to point out during this podcast is that some of the middle management in pharma has been cut, which means that MSLs often might be reporting to someone that has ten, twelve direct reports. So you're not necessarily getting the support that you might have gotten a few years ago when it was more like each field manager has maybe five or six MSLs. So I think that's changed things a little bit.
You're expected to do more with less leadership is the fundamental change. You've got to find someone that can serve as a mentor to you, whether in your company or outside of your company where you can ask the questions because there's gonna be silly questions. The one that always pops out in my mind that I like to share is I remember thinking if I have a dinner program, can I go to the gym at lunch? Like, I those are the things you're like, what can I do here? You know?
I'm like, if I travel for five days, like, can I go to the dentist at ten in the morning, or do I have to ask someone? Like, these silly things are the things that you gotta find someone that you can trust, that you can ask because that's gonna help you get through that year.
I think that it's a lot of stress, and so making sure that you're taking care of yourself and giving yourself a break after travel, so making you know, be careful with your calendar to schedule in some time after long meetings, to schedule some breaks, that type of stuff. I think in order to succeed, you have to be healthy and you have to be energetic, so you gotta take care of yourself first. And then I think we talked about it a little bit, Tom.
You're the, I mean, the genius behind this, but that year two and beyond, the sky's the limit. I think that you've gotta talk to as many people as you can within pharma to see what might be the best avenue for you to go to next. Yeah. Oh, no doubt. And I think that that this is such when I when I have this conversation and I look at this road map and this graphic and and follow it's just it's so exciting. You know, there's challenges and there's Yes. You know, ups and downs.
But, you know, getting through that first year, it does another thing too. It it it kinda gets your resume to a place where if if I'm not saying you should, but if you did want to consider making a move, I wouldn't suggest making a move before a year if you can avoid doing that. If you can avoid it. Just because you wanna have that one year under your belt, you wanna be able to say, yeah, I spent a year here.
I would say if you can spend a couple years and really get the foundation of what it means to to be an MSL, work at a company, develop a territory, create relationships, understand the disease state, and then you're just setting yourself up. So that one to three years being able to do that, it really helps you write your ticket. But, Sarah, let's talk about as as we're looking at that later phase and as people are going from, an MSL to a senior MSL.
And that I know that that's a loaded subject because Yeah. Not everybody calls senior MSLs, that title at the same amount of time and tenure. But I think for a lot of people, their goal is to go from an MSL to a senior MSL. Any advice on on how they can do that? Yeah. Let's start with what not to do because it's really simple, and that is wait until the end of the year to do your performance management. Right?
To fill in your goals, fill in your what you've done, etcetera, and then think that's gonna be enough to get you promoted. Sometimes it is, but waiting until then is also recipe to possibly not get the promotion and to not be aware of what you've actually accomplished. So, you some some people do this on a weekly basis. Some people do this on a monthly basis, but you've gotta track your own stuff. That's different from tracking actual metrics from KOLs. But what kind of projects have you done?
What kind of feedback have you gotten from your cross functional colleagues, and how are you saving that and keeping track of it so that you have somewhere to go back to when it does not come time for that review? Any kind of calls that you're doing, leadership, mentoring that you're doing, stretch assignments, how are you tracking that, and what does success look like in each of those things? You've gotta keep track of that.
So by the when it's time for promotions, you've got this full list, but you're not sharing at that point. You've been sharing that proactively with your leadership all along. You're going into your one on ones with a template, a plan, and sharing these kind of things. Here's what I did. Here's what went well. Hey. Here's a question I have. How could I do this better? So you've got a structure every time you talk to your leadership. There's no surprises at the end of the year.
If you end up being surprised that you didn't get a promotion, you gotta look back and think, what could I have done differently so that I knew what it would take? If I didn't know what it took and I was surprised to stay in MSL or to stay a senior MSL and not move to principal, I gotta look back and I gotta think it's on me. Mhmm. Yeah. Mhmm. Good stuff. And it is. It is on you. And that's the thing. I I think it's so important to be your own advocate and take control of your future.
So all of what Sarah just said is just amazing advice. What about just thinking about that that the success factor of, okay, how do I get from point a to point b, in the most efficient manner? So is there any advice as it relates to maybe tools or, resources that can help I mean, obviously, there's AI and there's digital and there's all these things now and CRMs and all this other stuff.
But can you can you kind of break that down briefly to say what MSLs should be putting in their toolbox in order to get their their career from point a to point b. Yeah. I mean, listening to this podcast, Tom, you have so many gems of previous episodes where those are the skills that you I mean, so go back and relisten to them because a lot of the information is right there. You can hear from the top leaders in the industry. So that would be number one. You mentioned AI.
AI isn't going anywhere, and it's not the future. It's already here. So if you're not starting to figure it out, you're gonna be behind. So I would say you've gotta adapt and figure out technology. I know that it's easy to say I'm just not good at technology, but it that that's not gonna be an excuse that we can use anymore. We gotta be able to figure it out. And you don't have to understand the ins and outs of it.
I I don't understand that part, but you gotta figure out how to use it in your daily life to make you more efficient and effective. And then I think the last thing is up level your communication skills, and that could be formal present like, any kind of formal presenting, or it could just be one on one working with your mentors. I know we already talked about Nick, but I'll talk about him one more time. He said that during some of his practice simulations, and this guy practices a lot.
Mhmm. He just kept getting better and better and better. We even talked about it after he got on the call, how comfortable he was, how articulate he was. He's getting that way because he's practiced so many times. So get better. Like that, I think we can all get better. Record yourself. Go talk to yourself and present the stuff and then watch yourself back. You can do all these little things that will slowly add up. Good stuff. Awesome.
Last thing. And I and I I really feel that this is really super important, and and I don't think a lot of people don't take the time Mhmm. And are not consistent with this. But let's talk about branding and how important it is to consider social media Yeah. Specifically LinkedIn for your career as an MSL, but also how important it is to just be aware of the digital footprint that you're leaving and or not leaving that you're that you're if you're absent.
You've become, Sarah, you've become a an influencer and a real leader in the medical affairs, social media actually, LinkedIn space. So, guys, if if any of you are listening to this and you're not following Sarah, you should absolutely be following Sarah Snyder and Katrina Pellet and myself just because we're just providing free content every day for you. Mhmm. And we love to do it. And now and Sarah's content is just amazing.
Can you talk about the importance of of personal branding as an MSL for your career? What's but Tom is it's so funny because he still has if you're not if you're listening and you can't see this, he still has the road map blog up, but he doesn't know this. But the the blog that I just published yesterday was called personal branding for MSLs in 2025 while your did why your digital presence is your new business card. So, Tom, in that article, I essentially outlined this. I know you didn't see it.
I did not. I swear I did. I know. I, I he really did it, guys. He didn't. But I essentially talk about how we let's say you're interviewing. Okay? So some of you guys are aspiring MSLs and you're interviewing. One of the things people will do is Google you, and they will look to your LinkedIn profile. So I give you steps in that post of how to audit yourself digitally because people are gonna do it.
It was funny because when I wrote it, I was thinking to myself, if you're going to a restaurant, what do you do? You Google it for reviews. If you're gonna meet someone, like, let's say, if my son brings home a girl or whatever, you know, from college, I'm gonna Google her. Like, we just do that. Right? It's just natural thing to do. People are gonna Google you. What shows up on your LinkedIn?
Do you have public social media on Facebook that's showing and, like, does it reflect the you that you want it to reflect? So there's a lot of steps in there, but I think, Tom, you eloquently said, you have a brand. Whether you like it or not, it just might be nonexistent. So you gotta get a digital brand. This isn't going away. It's only gonna increase. And KOLs oh, one quick thing, Tom.
Yeah. When Katrina and I were at this training on-site for this MSL team, we were talking about researching the KOL before a visit. And she said when she went on her LinkedIn, she could tell you how you can say who who viewed you, the KOL viewed her. Wow. So that's the future. And so it's you know, LinkedIn isn't just to get you a job. It's now your professional presence. I love it. And I'm gonna leave it there. Guys, that's so important, and it is actually, it's so funny.
I'm look I'm with it's literally staring me in the face. Personal branding for medical science liaisons in 2025. It's like the first article that comes up. So, You gotta read it, Tom. I have Yeah. And it's just crazy. It was just, like, perfect timing. But guys, I encourage you to, download the the checklist, check out this article in this blog, and and definitely, like I said before, follow Sarah, follow Katrina, follow me on LinkedIn.
We're we're definitely trying to produce the best, most up to date, most helpful content to put out there for you guys. And I appreciate I just wanna say I just appreciate every one of you guys for your support of this podcast and for sharing it. I can't every like, it's literally, like, every day someone says, oh, so and so told me to listen to your podcast. And so I appreciate that you guys are the best. Sarah, thank you for being here Thank you. And for doing this as always.
Yeah. Thanks, Tom. Awesome. Okay, guys. We'll see you next time. Bye.