Guys, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Stephanie Otis. She is vice president global medical excellence at Faring Pharmaceuticals, and we talk about the future of the MSL and what skills and competencies are going to be necessary for future success. So awesome conversation. I think you guys are gonna love it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and share this with others. Thanks so much for all your support.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Stephanie, welcome to the podcast. How are you, my friend? I'm good. Thank you. Awesome. Guys, I'm excited. So I I like to do a little background. So Stephanie and I met at a conference, actually, this summer. I was asked to be on this panel. Stephanie moderated the panel, and the rest is history. I'm like, this person's brilliant.
And she's from New Jersey, which is amazing, and we're neighbors in New Jersey down at the Jersey Shore. So I'm like, that won't can only mean one thing. That means that you have to come on my podcast, and here we are. So how are you doing today? Are you good? I am doing great. Thank you. And someday, we'll do a podcast just on the Jersey Shore and what that means. But today, we'll focus on them as well. So it's great to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's quite a privilege.
Yeah. And I think if we do a Jersey Shore podcast, it'd probably be the most, like, successful one I've ever done. So yeah. Before we get into it, why don't you do a quick intro? Tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that. Sure. Sure. So I have been, in the pharma industry for over 20 years. Now it's hard to believe that I'm actually saying that out loud, but it's true. And I've been in multiple roles, in different departments within the organization.
I've been on the commercial side of the business. I've been in the compliance organization. And, now, and where I started my career, I've been in medical affairs. And so I've got a bit of a unique and diverse perspective on how MSLs work and how they should show up and how they do show up within the organization, and outside the organization from an external perspective in clinical practice before I went into pharma. So, it's been it's been quite a journey.
Currently, I'm with Faring Pharmaceuticals, and I wear a dual hat. One of those hats is the head of the US Medical Affairs Organization, which for Faring includes a team of MSLs, NCLs, which are nurse clinical liaisons, and then also our MOVLs, which are our medical outcomes and value liaisons. So we've got quite a large field medical affairs team, in the US at the regional level. And then the other hat is global medical excellence.
And among many departments within the center of excellence, we have a learning and development and a field medical excellence role. So not only do I manage a team of MSLs at the regional level, but also responsible for building the skill sets and the capabilities and helping them develop within their career at fairing at the global level. And let me summarize, that is an extremely rare background to have. That's, like, 3 different jobs and different experts in one.
So, guys, I'm excited because I think Stephanie is incredibly qualified, and is gonna be awesome in helping us to learn about the MSL of the future, which is what we're gonna talk about today. Before we do that, this episode is sponsored by MSL Mastery online courses, and training programs for MSLs and aspiring MSLs. So we're excited. We have this program called Aspire MSL, which is helping people break into industry. We just had 3 people land their first MSL roles last week.
We have a new training program, which is called presentation mastery, which is great for MSLs. Check it out. Mslmastery.com. So, Stephanie, let's jump into this. When we look at, like, the future of MSLs, like, how do you see this role evolving in, like, 5, 10 years from now? Yeah. We talk about evolution, but I've seen such an amazing transformation even just in the past few years. Maybe before we jump into evolution, we can talk about some of the the core capabilities that are fundamental.
Because I think even though we are evolving and transforming the role and continuing to do that, there are a couple of things that we really need to keep top of mind that are fundamental to the success of an MSL. And within those, there'll be evolution in the way that we do things and how we interact with our thought leaders and our HCPs. But it's really important to understand 3 things.
The first is, the scientific acumen piece that I think everybody in every single one of your podcasts talks about, which is really the way in which we show up and we engage in scientific dialogue and scientific exchange. So every MSL has to be equipped with a very high level of scientific acumen to be considered a credible expert in the field. And that's evolving in ways where we can now personalize and tailor our messages.
We can improve our scientific acumen by becoming more digitally savvy and adopting some of the new technologies. I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit, and other ways that that's changing. I think the second thing is is storytelling, our ability to be able to translate a scientific narrative. That's always been the case. Again, a fundamental core competency of an MSL, but really sort of shifting to how we share scientific content differently.
How do we connect the human experience with what HCPs wanna learn or what our audience wants to hear, and how does that ultimately impact the way that they're treating their patients? And how do we tailor that message and create it in a way, and communicate it in a way that's meaningful and impactful, however we define that? And then the third is relationship building, this sort of art of the human connection, and why that's so important to the way that MSLs engage.
And engagement is another one of those core components of being a highly successful MSL. I think if you look at those three things, and then you look at the evolution, those things are evolving in ways, that have to add components to it, like business acumen, adaptive leadership, technical skill sets. Right? But each of those sort of fundamental three things remain.
So when we look at scientific acumen, it's the evolution towards building in that business acumen component and being able to balance that effectively to the needs of the customer, whether those customers be internal or external stakeholders. If we look at storytelling or communicating a scientific narrative, how do you incorporate strategic vision and customer engagement into the ways in which you communicate?
And then relationship building, sort of this idea that we're gonna take digital, and we're gonna take analytics, and we're gonna incorporate these new tools and technology. The the the virtual environment, for example, we're not always face to face anymore in a live situation having a dialogue. So how can I interact with you in a way that we really make a connection in different ways? And how do we deliver against those unmet needs that exist today with our customers?
I think those are the ways in which the fundamental core skill sets are gonna need to evolve for the future to to be a successful MSL. You know, it's funny that, you know, that I was I wasn't sure how you were gonna answer that because there's so many different things out there now. And we look at you mentioned digital and artificial intelligence and all that, but you literally just described the three most important tenets of being a successful MSL.
It still comes down to scientific acumen, the ability to to be a good storyteller and make those connections and be a good relationship builder. So, like, it's amazing that in 5 to 10 years from now, that's still it's gonna evolve as you said, but that's still going to be at the core of what makes an MSL valuable. So, okay. We're done. We can just end it there. We're finished. It's over.
I think I I think that my my philosophy is more about how do we maximize and optimize the capabilities that that we do see being the most valuable to the customer. How do we meet them where they are? Yeah. How do we communicate with them in ways that resonate? And how do we ultimately keep in mind the needs of the patient in building the scientific and business acumen that's relevant?
So I I don't think that's gonna evolve so dramatically that we're gonna see a fundamental shift in those core competencies. What I what I do think will evolve, and evolve quickly are how do we deliver the messages. Right? What impact does, call it, outcomes measures have? Right? How do we add in the economic components that are now really important to providers who are not just thinking about the scientific data, but also the cost of a medication, for example.
How do we, you know, incorporate multichannel, and and personalize and tailor messages in ways that that are relevant? I think that's important. You, you did a podcast actually. It was one of my favorites on, what is your MSL superpower? Do you remember that one? Yeah. And it's it's funny because as I as I listen to that, you mentioned, there's multiple facets to it. Right? I think it's true. There is no one superpower.
I mean, it's Mhmm. It's this idea, and this is this is part of the evolution too. This idea that the MSLs need to be equipped with this holistic competency base. And each one of those competencies play a role in how successful they are as an MSL. So you have to retitle that as what are what are your MSL superpowers. Because it it really does take take a lot, and take a highly skilled MSL to incorporate all of those together and get the right balance.
Yeah. I will have to go back and and I'll have to edit that because it's true. It isn't just one superpower to be to be a successful MSO. And since we're talking about the future, to be a successful MSO for the future, you have to have skills and competencies, not just one, but a bunch of things. But let me ask you as we talk about that. When we look at skills and competencies, what do you think needs to be developed in order to stay relevant as things continue to evolve?
Yeah. So we always need to develop our technical skills, all of us. In any role that you're in, I think we're seeing digital move at a pace that we're trying to keep up with, but with the addition of artificial intelligence and machine learning and how physicians and other health care professionals are figuring out ways to build technology into their business.
How do we build the right core set of technical skills, and how do we use those technical skills to adapt to the ways of working externally? So having a a good understanding and being able to adapt to a health care landscape that's highly regulated, that has, you know, compliance guidances and regulations that are ever changing, how to build in the systems and and tools that are necessary to communicate in ways that, provide precise and and real time information.
I think those are the technical skills that we're gonna need to see evolve, and maybe even add in to the competency model because some of them just don't simply exist. We we do a great job of equipping MSLs with the toolkits that are necessary with the scientific data. But how can we move them and shift them from what has been more of a digitally naive place to more of a digital savvy place. I think the other piece is business acumen.
I mean, we talk about it all the time, but what does that mean? What does that mean to an MSL? How much? How little? How often? How not? How do you incorporate that into the scientific narrative? Why is it important?
I think that for the MSL, coming out of whether it be, you know, medical school or or pharmacy school or, you know, wherever they're they're moving in from their career into pharma, how do we help them understand the basics of that, and how do we then build the capabilities that are necessary within that space. What does strategic vision mean? I mean, we we sort of grapple with that all the time, and we know that, trust is really important from an HCP standpoint.
I mean, you know, maybe a third of health care providers trust the pharma industry. The MSL really could be that bridge between the pharma industry and the HCPs and the patients that are out there. So how do we make sure that they have adequate levels of these competencies? That that's that's really sort of how the things that I see moving forward. Yeah. Well, it's interesting.
Coincidentally, last week's episode was called the augmented MSL, which is all about how MSL should be adopting artificial intelligence into their, like, work life. And, it's interest so what you're saying is consistent, like getting more comfortable with digital tools and artificial intelligence. But the thing that was interesting in the conversation is that it seems like right now the onus is on the MSL to start to adapt some of these tools, digital and artificial intelligence tools.
I I didn't get the sense, the overwhelming sense, that this is necessarily as organized by the company as it should be. I could be wrong about that. So how much do you think that digital literacy and emerging technologies needs to be implemented on the company level from an organizational strategic standpoint? Because right now, it seems like it's just like, hey. Yeah. MSLs go out and start using Chat GPT. At least that's what I got from that conversation.
Yeah. I I so in in my role, I have oversight of of many different departments within medical affairs, and I would say that's that's not just the case for MSLs. I think that's probably where we all are in terms of our user experience. We do need to do a better job. The company does need to do a better job in providing the MSLs and others in the organization with not just the right training and and things that they need to be able to utilize these systems, but with the right systems and platforms.
And I I think what's happening is, you know, the evolution as you say or the pace in which, you know, digital is changing and case studies are are being implemented in in the AI space is almost competing with our ability to be able to utilize those types of things.
And at some point, they must converge, because when the right tools are built and we can use them effectively, then we've gotta make sure that the you the users have the ability to do that in a seamless way and an efficient way in a way that meets the needs of the patients ultimately. We don't wanna make it a barrier to the MSLs. And at the moment, we have, at least in pharma, we have all sorts of systems that can help the MSL.
None of which are really integrated in a way I think that we'd like them to be in order for it to be truly effective at the MSL field level. And so you've got these, you know, customer relationship management systems where they have to put in their interactions, and then you have the insight system where they have to incorporate their insights. And then you have probably a reporting component where you're tracking performance through a dashboard that's coming from a a Power BI system. Right?
I could I could go on and on and on and on, and and it is our job to make sure that, to the MSL, those are easy to use, those are simple to use, and we get the right, not just inputs in, but outputs out. And I think that that has been challenging for us, and we'll hopefully get there for the MSL. Well, it's funny.
You and what you just said is I think one of the issues that every company is going is is dealing with right now is is what are the best tools to, to ensure excellence within their medical affairs teams, And how do they all work together and play together nicely? I think the the good news is there's so much more available now than there ever was before, but the bad news is there's so much more available now than there was before because it gets confusing, and you're just piling things on.
But I think that as things evolve, I think there is gonna be a little bit more of a standardization, I think, in platforms. I think only because I am close with a lot of the vendors that work within these organizations, and things are evolving. So I think that one of the ways that the MSO of the future is going to be to involve from a technical standpoint is the standardization of some of these tools, I think. And what do I I'm just I'm hopeful.
I mean, it it's not sort of the the the end all answer for the MSL, and I and I think, we should be honest with ourselves in saying that the value of having the MSL provide feedback and insights given their interactions is so critical to whatever asset it is that you're using from a digital standpoint. So AI is wonderful, and there's so many use cases and opportunities to utilize AI.
But we need the MSL who is the trusted expert and that the the face to face of the customer providing input on what is probably, you know, 80% good data, I would say. And that's where if you can incorporate both of those things, you get you get really good information on time that's accurate and that you can use in your day to day, which is what the MSL wants, I think. Think about, KOL engagement or if you call it KEE now given the evolution of the KOL.
If I'm getting my information from an AI engine to identify you, to map you, and then to get your your sentiment analysis. And the MSL uses that. They're a bit ahead of the game in terms of what they know about the thought leader that they're gonna interact with. But who knows you better than the person that's having that face to face interaction?
And that data may may not be a 100% accurate, and we need that information back in to continue to fuel the engine to get smarter and smarter and better and better. And so I I think it's it's important to have good systems and and find these ways that we can use AI, but also absolutely critical to have sort of the the the human MSL providing that data back in and making sure that it's accurate, relevant, and that it meets their needs. Yeah. Well, you it's funny.
You you you just kinda hit on the the next topic that I wanted to kinda switch over to, and that is the KOL or KEE or HCP engagement piece and how you see that changing and evolving in the future. Because, obviously, we've gone through, you know, COVID, and now it's post COVID. And there's some k well access issues, and there's this whole virtual world that we're dealing with. But what do you think happens in the next 5 to 10 years?
How does medical affairs and how do MSLs get better, and what happens with this engagement piece? Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, I think it's absolutely critical to define what you mean by KOL or or KEE. Right? KOL, key opinion leader Mhmm. Was really meant initially to cover the prescriber.
So we were talking about, the people that had interactions with patients where we were going out to these institutions and or clinics, interacting with them and providing them with the evidence they need in order to ensure that they make the right treatment decisions. As we've evolved, you've then seen that the the KOL move into this KEE, key expert. Right?
Because key external expert, because it's not just now those people that are in these offices that are working directly and and making treatment decisions directly for their patients, but it's digital influencers. It's people on, you know, social media platforms. It's patient advocates. It's it's other thought leaders that are now also driving decision making and need a level of scientific evidence that's critical in order to be informed.
And, I think now moving forward, what we're gonna see is an even broader spectrum of of decision makers and even patients in the mix too, if they're not already. Because, the the economic piece of the evidence that you're communicating needs to be integrated now. Think about these integrated delivery networks, these these key accounts as part of these larger parent organizations that exist that are driving treatment decisions.
Not independent of, but complementary to the individual physicians that are seeing the patients. So it is a multifaceted and, care team that's now interacting with these thought leaders that we were 1 on 1 with that now becomes very much a a one to many, and the MSLs need to think about who they're interacting with in addition to what they're communicating now. That's gonna be important as we move forward. So what about I have to ask this because I remember this being a question in our panel.
What would you say to what advice would you give to MSLs to help try to future proof their career? So what can an MSL do now to position them for the future? And that's a really broad question. It could be anything. Yeah. So one of the things that I tell the MSLs on my team all the time is that they need to operate in a very agile environment. That one of the core competencies that is essential is your ability to incorporate this idea of learning agility into everything that you do.
Most are comfortable with that because as as they went through their their education or their training, they needed to adapt to multiple therapeutic areas, multiple subject matters, different things along the course of that journey. So how do we now translate that into the the environment moving forward as you're working with your thought leaders?
How do you maintain that agile mindset to incorporate all of these these new things that are coming in that are going to supplement what you're doing and really provide the opportunity opportunity to unlock these these personalized and and and tailored approaches to how we communicate. So I would say learning agility is is number 1. And then we didn't really talk about this yet because we've been talking mostly about external. But this idea about, enterprise leadership, and what does that mean?
So can you really understand and communicate the value back internally as an MSL to the larger organization. I'm fortunate enough to work for a company that really does value medical and, looks at medical as a strategic pillar of the organization. Not all companies are like that. We will all evolve and and get there.
I'm hopeful of that, but the MSL plays an absolutely critical role, in ensuring that the organization really understands what the value is of the medical affairs organization of the MSLs and then how that translates back into, the work that they're doing externally. So enterprise leadership and learning agility, I think, are are really important to keep in mind as we look to the future. So this is so good.
Like, I always know when I'm in the middle of a really awesome episode because I can't help myself but take notes. So, guys, if you're driving right now, try not to, like, swerve off the road. Or if you have to pull over to take notes, we understand. But listen to this again so that you could take notes because this stuff is is that good, and I'm learning a ton.
So let me as a recruiter and being in the recruiting side of the of this equation, I can't help but ask you about what the future might look like when it comes to hiring MSLs and what advice you might give career advice you might give to MSLs in their preparation for like, what do you think the recruiting process is gonna look like in the future? And is it gonna or is it not even gonna change at all? Is it always just gonna be what we know and love as what we have right now? I'm just curious.
Yeah. I I I I think my perspective is that it'll be a combination of both. There are things that that we love, and that we will continue to look for. But then there's, you know, also the the next generation, if you will. And what I mean by that is just this incorporation of all of these new capabilities and competencies that are critical for the MSL to have.
And the MSL being able to balance that as you're recruiting or you're interviewing in an interview setting is, I think, a unique differentiator for them, to be honest. I ask MSLs that I'm interviewing, what does patient centricity mean to you, and and what role does it play in your day to day? And the ones that that that answer that and and not just there there's no sort of right answer. Right? But but some don't know what role the patient plays.
And I think if that's our ultimate objective is really ensuring that that we're delivering on an unmet need to the patient, then the patient better be a core component of what you do. And it'd be good if you could be clear about what that means. So I think those more, what I would say are, you know, philosophical and how that has an impact on medical engagement is really important, and we're gonna start seeing that come in into the process.
And and as you're recruiting, things like learning agility, right, patient centricity, enterprise leadership, customer engagement. Those haven't always been familiar. It's been very much operational, very much driven by science. Right? Come come present to me. And if you've got great presentation skills, and we we can engage in a way that's, viewed as a trusted scientific expert, that's probably good. That's one piece is my point. Right?
And I think that now in combination with hiring for specialized capabilities in areas sort of beyond the science, that that that's I think gonna come through more and more as we're looking at candidates.
Yeah. I agree with all of the above, and I'll add that it's still just to add to build on what you were saying about I just I think that where I see people fail in interviews is they just don't do a very good job giving examples of of what it is that they've done, experiences, skills, transferable skills, competencies, storytelling. You you you brought up storytelling before. In order to be a good MSL, you need to be a good storyteller. That counts on an interview.
So if you can provide examples of your work through stories in an interview, you probably will win because that's what we're seeing as most impactful. So looking into the future, if you can get really good at taking those pieces, you mentioned patient centricity, and you you take those those words, those buzzwords and those categories and come up with examples of stories of how you've been successful, how you've made an impact. Have you met strategic objectives? You get the job.
That's that's my opinion. So Yeah. We're we're all we're all looking for a value proposition. Right? We're all very interested and attuned to defining value and what that means. So if you can if you can tell a good story, provide specific examples, but then I'll add one more thing to your list, which is talk about the outcomes, talk about the result, and the impact that that made on whatever it was. I think, yeah, you've you've scored. Yeah. So you've mentioned value.
I think last question or topic last I can't believe we've been talking this long. It's, like, flew by. But the you mentioned value. And whenever for a 1000000 years, as long as I've been in in medical affairs, every conference that I go to, there's always the conversation of how does medical affairs prove their value to the organization. It's just in every conference. In looking into the future, does that change?
Do we get to a point in 5 years, in 10 years where m where medical affairs and MSLs no longer need? It the value is understood. The value is evident. Do we get to the point where that happens, or are we always gonna be having to prove our value? On some level, everyone needs to prove their value. I don't think that we'll get to a point where it will go unspoken, or in a place where we're not gonna be looking at metrics or measures of, either performance and or interactions.
What I what I think will change, what we're already seeing change a bit is the way in which we do that. What do we measure? What is important to measure? This shift from quantitative metrics to more qualitative metrics. And more metrics around like I said before, how do you ensure that you're meeting an unmet need or that you're delivering on a gap that exists for the patient, more patient centric measures for success. Right? How do we define success differently?
I think that's gonna be the shift that we see. So rather than or maybe in addition to looking at things like reaching frequency. Right? How many times have I interacted with you? How many calls have we got on? At what rhythm, looking more at, has your behavior changed as a result of our interaction? Has your treatment decision evolved in a way that's meaningful to the patient? Are there insights that we are generating that's driving a different action or an alternative action internally?
I think those those are the measures that that we are hopeful we we will use to define success at the MSL level rather than just simply numbers, volume. Yeah. So I'm gonna say this. Favorite quote one of my favorite quotes ever on the MSL talk podcast is on some level folks, you just heard it. On some level, everyone needs to prove their value. That is such a mic drop moment. We have to end it on that. On some level, everyone needs to prove their value. So, Stephanie, you're awesome.
This was amazing. Thank you so much. It it was just an awesome podcast. Thank you. Thank you. It's been great. Yeah. Alright, guys. Listen. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate all your support. Share this with your friends. And as always, we will see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss episodes in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.