Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Eddie Power, and he is the medical strategist and CEO of Empower. And we talk about the future, MSL, and how the role is going to evolve. It's a great conversation. I know you guys are gonna love this, so don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. There's a lot of announcements and content that gets posted, including the MSL Talk live schedule.
So MSL Talk live is a panel discussion once a month, so check out listings and times for that, and hopefully, you can join us. So thanks for being here and for all your support. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey there, Eddie. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing? I'm good, Tom. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to our conversation today. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm excited.
And, guys, you know, I like like to give a little background. So Eddie and I have kinda known each other over the years from, you know, just industry conferences. And, you know, this dude is like, he's well known in the conference community. You always see Eddie's name as a speaker, contributor. So he's he's definitely a guest that I am excited to have on. And I just saw him at MAPS in Puerto Rico, and we had a chance to catch up live. And I'm like, let's just get a date. So here we are.
We have a really exciting topic to share with you. But before we get into it, Eddie, why don't you do an introduction? Sounds good, Tom. Thank you for the kind words. Likewise, for for you as well. Always a fixture at these conferences and meetings. But, you know, for me, 25 years in the pharmaceutical industry, primarily medical affairs, you know, worked across 7 different companies from small to large, most recently with Pfizer, on a wild COVID ride.
And then, you know, about a year ago, I set up my own consultancy, Empower Medical, and, you know, 12 months on, you know, here we are in enjoying a new a new phase in my life. So, like I said, medical affairs, some clinical development roles, and some strategic marketing roles. So for me, it's just a 4 to day broad view of the pharma industry, how it operates, but more importantly, how medical affairs and MSLs can add value. Yep. Awesome.
And before we jump into it, I do have we have a sponsor for today's episode. And for any aspiring MSLs that are struggling to break into their first medical science liaison position, consider joining the Aspire MSL program. This episode sponsored by MSL Mastery. That's a program that Sarah Snyder and I put together, which is a online course step by step guide for those that are really struggling to get into the industry as an MSL.
Just go to mslmastery.com and look for Aspire MSL, and we'd love to talk to you about it. So, and we're gonna talk about the future. The whole topic today is the future of the MSL and what the the the role is gonna look like. So I guess the best way to start maybe is and I'm curious to hear from you, Eddie. What factors do you think are going to affect the MSL role and its trajectory and how it's and where it's going? Absolutely.
Many people don't realize that the role started back in 1967, would you believe? And it started as part of a of the commercial organization, you know, the marketing organizations that, these companies decided they needed people who actually had some medical knowledge and can and could speak more in-depth. And we've seen a transition over that time period to more of a medical focus. But when I look at the trends today, right, there's there's a couple that that really spring to mind.
1 is the whole area of data analytics. Advanced and predictive analytics and how, MSLs can actually leverage those to really focus, identify, and engage on the right health care professionals. Mhmm. Whatever they may look like. Right? We we, I think, have moved from more of an academic focus.
And by that, I mean, those key opinion leaders who published or presented to the congress to now beginning embracing those who may never go to congress or may never publish, but are actually dealing with patients, right, every every day. And then the second piece that's coming that is is the buzzword, right, is artificial intelligence. You know? And what does that mean? And there's so many facets in there.
But, you know, I'm really interested at the moment in the application of artificial intelligence at the point of care. Because now those decisions are gonna be made by an algorithm, and health care professionals will be informed by that algorithm. And then what does that mean for the traditional type of MSO role where very much predicated on a 1 on 1 interaction, where the health care professional was a decision maker?
And now you've got AI coming in and effectively taking over at least some of that decision making. So those are kind of the the 2 big changes that I see, you know, moving forwards that will impact the MSL role and what that may look like in the future. Yeah. You know? And it's interesting. As you said, I think we we all realize that AI is the thing, and it's going to have a profound effect on probably all of our jobs in some way, shape or form.
But do you think, and like how quickly do you think the decision makers, the KOLs, the physicians and the medical community is going to adopt the algorithm in the decision making process. Because I feel like, you know, physicians, many I was a rep for 10 years, so I have a a good understanding of how it works. They wanna make the call.
Sure. So do you think AI is gonna be a reference guide, or do you literally think they're gonna be like, well, I'm going into my AI tool, and it's gonna tell me what to do, and I'm following the protocol that comes from AI, or is it just too soon to know? I think it's gonna depend initially on the on the specialty and on the role of the health care providers. I think what we're seeing at the moment is more early adoption. I'm gonna call the device space. Right?
So we're seeing approvals in medical imaging for AI driven analysis of, you know, X rays, MRI scans, CT scans, and it's the algorithm that's that's reading those and, in essence, coming up with a, you know, with a decision. And, you know, where I see some of the early adoption may be, you know, areas like emergency rooms where things are fed quickly, into systems to come up, not necessarily with a definitive diagnosis, but more, here's the top 2 or 3 things that you should be thinking about.
Yeah. And then if you start taking that step forward into the pharma drug side of things rather than device side of things, it it may be, well, you you know, here are some of the treatment options, that that we need to consider. And the the the other big area, I think, Tom, is is in on the diagnosis side of things and that delay, in diagnosis where rare disease springs to mind as a as an example where patients are often misdiagnosed over a number of years.
And AI can really speed up that diagnosis, and I'm sure that health care professionals will embrace and adopt that because it's actually helping their clinical decision making. Well and I, you know, I that's a great point. And that's a by the way, that's a great answer to, like, a almost impossible question. It was almost like a trick question. It's like, how are we gonna know?
We don't know inside the minds of KOLs, of course, but I'm just kind of speaking hypothetically, but I love that answer because I do think that, you know, there are so many undiagnosed patients out there. There's there's these ultra rare diseases that there's people walking around and there might be something available for those people. It's just they they don't really know what they have. Exactly.
Yeah. So getting back to the MSL and how the MSL might look in the future, would, do you feel that there may be some necessary credentials for the future MSL that may be different from what we what we have today? Yeah. My experience in the past has been that that MSLs have some kind of doctoral degree in in whatever form or or fashion. And and for me, the more that the health care profession evolves, I see the MSLs kind of matching that.
Mhmm. So, you know, you have pharmacists who may not be foundees, but may be critical in, say, form committees. You may have nurses who are managing patients and are are a rich source of insights because they're often the not only the frontline, but the first line in terms of any adverse events or how a patient is is is responding. So I mostly we should be mirroring what's happening in the health care community.
You know, we've got, in the US, at least, more physician assistants, more nurse practitioners, who are critical, right, in managing managing patient care. And the more we kind of get away for for me, the doctoral thing is obviously a good thing, but in a way was a legacy of an academic approach. Mhmm. And now it's more, let's think of medical affairs and MSLs as being a little bit more applied. Perhaps is the is the phrase I used, and and really being engaged in what patient care looks like.
Mhmm. You know, that that's one of the well, that's that's kinda one of the key things that I see moving forward in terms of credentials. Yep. No. I got you. It makes sense. It makes sense. And, again, a lot of these questions are hypothetical. We, you know, we don't know. We're just really guessing. But, you know, I appreciate that the ability to kinda look at the trends and see where things are going and how things are evolving.
And, you know, one of the other things I was thinking about is, you know, as we look at AI, that certainly could be, a very beneficial thing. But what other things do you think might what changes might occur that would make the role of the MSL better? Yep. So one of the things that I see I mentioned analytics before. So advanced and predictive analytics, I I think, will be really useful and and a helpful tool.
And what I mean by that is is that today, right, you you can look at unmet medical needs, however you wanna define it. It could be time from diagnosis to treatment. It could be adherence to treatment. It could be undiagnosis or misdiagnosis in rare disease. But but today with those analytics, you you can actually see which HCPs or which clinics are treating the majority of patients.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And then, you know, an MSL can basically identify, a list of health care professionals to engage with based on those analytics. So you can enhance patient care if there's an ACP that's treating 200 patients, and there's another one in the next ZIP code that's treating 5. I think as an MSL, I would focus on the one that's treating the majority of patients because you're more likely to have an impact, right, in patient care.
Mhmm. And it makes an MSL time, I think, more efficient, more focused. And using those same analytics, you can also start showing impact over time. As you're you know, it's funny. As you're talking about it, that's what I was thinking. Like, there's this dilemma that goes on. We have this conversation all the time on this podcast, the dilemma of how how do MSL show their value?
How does medical affairs show its value when it there is no system of tracking sales, like in the on the commercial side, because that's not what you're judged on. But when you say that the advancements that are happening in analytics will show could show impact, I mean, do you think that the future of the MSL, performance tracking could be could go back to this concept? Abs absolutely. And if you take an example, right, it could be diagnosis to treatment and what that time period is.
And particularly, if it's an acute disease like an infection, COVID, right, you name it, where you need treatment as quickly as you can. If those analytics show you that certain HCPs or clinics are taking 8 days, for example, to treatment, you can focus your medical education, your medical communication, your MSL efforts on that, and then see after a period of time if those 8 days have been reduced.
And I think that's such a a valuable, almost like a kinda hard metric that medical affairs has always struggled with. But it it it works both ways. Right? Because if there's no impact, if there's no change, then it tells you whatever we're doing isn't working. Mhmm. And it could be, do we need to change the message? Do we need to change the content? Do we need to refocus medical education? Mhmm. If there's a change, then there may not be a direct cause correlation.
But directionally, you're starting to show some value and and starting to show some shift there. And and to me, it's something that an MSO, you know, can take, can take and show, hey. Look. Here's here's what we've done. We're seeing an impact. What we're doing is actually, adding value. And at the end of that, it's actually improving patient outcomes. And that I think that's what the the medical affairs division, the industry has been really looking for, I think, for so many years.
So, I mean, I know that that would be an awesome addition, or something to just look forward to, at some point in time in the future. Now we've spoken we've spent some time talking about how things might evolve for the better. So when you look at the MSO role, do you see challenges, or do you see difficulties in the future for this role?
So the the biggest challenge, which is also an opportunity, is is if you take the MSO role traditionally, it's always been focused on individual engagements, primarily. Mhmm. 1 on ones. Right? And, occasionally, there may be a group meeting or advisory board meeting. And those engagements and the insights coming from those engagements were really the primary source for for pharma companies. With the explosion of data and now artificial intelligence, right, that's able to to mine those data.
Is it the challenge becomes how do you fit that individual insight into something broader that can now be validated by analytics, by by by artificial intelligence. So so for the MSL, it's to recognize this is really just an anecdote that I'm hearing Mhmm. Putting the system. Or do I look at it as in 2 ways? Right? I can be a scout, and this is I think of it on safety terms, right, like like an early warning system or a signal detection system that I need to take back to the organization.
Hey. This is what I'm hearing. Mhmm. We need to have a look at it, and we can validate it through whatever data lakes, right, and analytics we want to do. Or we can work the other way around where if you're getting these trends coming out of these, these these data lakes and these analytics, then the MSL can take those and go back and use that information and say, hey. Is this something that you're seeing in your world, in your clinical practice? Is it real, or is it not real?
And it may it it it starts passing out by taking that approach where potentially you need to focus, say, more medical education or more communication and even use use things as case studies. Right? This is what's working well in this geography, and it's not working well here. Can we connect some of those different different geographies?
So so that's that's the challenge, right, is to get out of that very focused almost in the weeds is not the right thing, but you're very focused in a particular geography in a particular area, but then start connecting those dots Mhmm. Across the whole MSL organization, you know, to to share best practices, right, and to share what what may not have worked. Right. And I think that goes on now, but I think it's gonna be more important in the future.
And, you know, I want I'm I wanna get back to this conversation or just mention because AI keeps coming up. It came up again. Like, do you think that the MSL role is in jeopardy because of artificial intelligence? So I actually think the opposite.
I think it can be enhanced by artificial intelligence, because going back to the unmet medical need example we were talking about, AI can identify all those, and can, I think, really focus where engagements are needed and where there are unmet medical needs Mhmm? And unmet gaps in patient care.
But, also, I can I can envision a situation where if you're having a conversation and you're showing some data or some information on a on an iPad and there's a question that's asked by the person that you're engaging with, then AI can have, say, like, a pop up to come up and say, we've had this question before, and here's how to respond to it? Or wouldn't that be fantastic, like, from an MSL? Because you can then start addressing things in real time.
And it's not, let me go back and, you know, get back to you with my with my answer or or with with my questions. And I think as health care evolves, you know, we talked about AI at point of care, there's gonna be, I think, much more real time evidence coming up that I I think AI will help, an MSL to to manage and and embrace. Yeah. Well, that's good news, guys. You heard it here. I absolutely AI is not going to kill the MSL role. You heard it here first. That's right. And I look.
I don't say that to get controversial. I don't say that to be negative or be a fear monger. I just think it's something that I I get that question. People ask me that question all the time. And I I have a vested interest in the career of the MSL. That's what I do for a living. It's funny. People don't realize, like, I don't just do a podcast for a living. I'm actually an MSL recruit. Like, I have a recruiting business. So without MSLs, I don't have a recruiting business, guys.
You know, I'll still have a podcast, I guess. Maybe. I don't know. But I'm glad to hear you say that, in your opinion, AI is going to enhance the role. So I guess the the next question, as we look at the, the career of the MSL and how it evolves, do you what changes do you see as far as, like, do you see new titles emerging or responsibilities? Like, how does it grow from here? Yeah. So so I I do see different different types of of roles.
You know, I think I think the one size fits all approach, is probably beginning to phase out. And and I see MSL roles, some that may be more focused on communication of medical information, for example.
There may be some, I think, that are more focused on analytics, but not just purely as data scientists, but as folk with some kind of medical or scientific background who can actually go into an institution and work with them to help mine their own data, work with them to find out what their own, patient needs may be. And they're doing all that. They can do all of that at a at a local at a local level.
So it's not your traditional health economics, outcomes research, data science that's done more at a national level, but you can start doing this at a local level. Because sometimes, the there's a lot of value in in the aggregate, but sometimes the local situation may be different. Right? It needs a more a more tailored and and bespoke approach.
And then the other thing that I often think about, Tom, is typically in the MSL world or in the medical affairs world for that for that matter, there there's often been a focus on you have to be a specialist in a particular therapeutic area or a disease area. And if I look at the way that health care is is progressing, maybe we have a role for MSLs who are generalists.
So akin to primary care, you know, family practitioners, the nurse practitioners, the physician assistants who know enough to address some of the questions. But then if things start getting deeper or evolving, they can bring in a specialist MSL. Now I've got my oncology MSL, who's an expert in a particular, oncology disease state or my infectious disease MSL or my rheumatology MSL. So I I I do think there's an opportunity for pharma in general to think a little bit differently Mhmm.
You know, about about that and not having this one size fits all where you just basically say to everybody, hey. Here's your region. You go out and talk about everything all the time. You know, you can train people to a certain depth across a large number of therapeutic areas as a family practitioner would. And then you have your specialists who can really go deep, and you can you can bring them in, as as the need arises. Interesting. I didn't expect you to say that.
I think the concept that you just introduced, which is the more generalist approach, is I think there's a lot of people listening to this right now that are very pleased to hear that because the trend has been and probably continues to be, we want subject matter experts. We want specialists in a specific therapeutic area, disease state. It it that's been the trend. But to hear you say I mean, it makes total sense what you're saying.
And I think there's a lot of really qualified people out there that are more generalists than they are specialists that can add a lot of value to the industry. So I think that's that's good that's more good news. So I I think that as the career prospects for the future and for all those aspiring MSLs listening or or people that are that are MSLs that would rather be in that role than be specialized. I think that's good news. But you said something before that made me think.
You said used the word data, and it made me think of in your opinion, what do you think data delivery and the strategy for delivering data is going going to look like for the future MSL? So I think of data very broadly, and I think it's another area where artificial artificial intelligence can work. And, normally, we think of numbers, writing words as as data.
But you you can look at us today, on screen, and you can look at us in a month's time, and you can look at us in 6 months time on the same screen. And if one of us is on a medication for some particular disease, you can probably use just the the images and the way that that we look and that we act to look at progression, right, the effectiveness of treatment or not.
You can look at searches that people do online, and you can track flu pretty well these days just by seeing how many people are typing flu across the globe. Mhmm. So so that that, to me expands that whole concept of what we think of as as data. Right? And it's it's, you know, it's I think helps make us more curious, I think, a little bit more innovative. You know?
And then how do you harness all of that, you know, as an MSL, right, with either when you're communicating or whether you you're bringing back insights, right, or or or feedback. And I think there's there's such a rich, source there that we just have not exploited so far. What about stakeholders? We look at the this the current stakeholders that are being targeted. Does that change in the future? I think I think it does. You know, we've touched on it a little bit.
And and often the focus, has been on, I'm gonna call them more academic key opinion leaders, right, who present or on guideline committees, who work primarily prescribers. Mhmm. But what we see in health care systems now is is that is that all of that patient management has a lot of inputs, and other people touching that patient journey through the system. And the majority of them today are probably nonprescribers. Right? So it could be pharmacists. It could be nurses.
It could be some of the limited prescribing, credentials. It could be people who are completely different and are making decisions on a cost basis or some kind of economic basis. And and the opportunity, I think and then there's the patients themselves. Right? And how how does all of that change? There's a, for good reasons, a number of compliance frameworks that determine how muscles interact with patients or patient advocacy groups or not at all.
But but I I see I see that all those stakeholders big begin, begin increasing. If you start looking at more public health, initiatives, vaccines is always a good example. And I had the opportunity to work into vaccine vaccines for many years, but COVID brought all that to life as well. You know, you you've got your government officials, right, whether it be at a national level like the CDC. You've got your state territorial health officials. You've got your public health city officials.
And and all of those to me are opportunities to engage on a on a medical basis, with information that that's current, and that's not. And with patients, we we've always gotta be careful about trying to influence any treatment options. Right? We always should be a step away Mhmm. And leave it to the to the health care providers, the health care practitioners to make that that ultimate decision. But they're there. Right?
They're they're a they're a legitimate stakeholder because if they're taking one of the medicines for a company that we work for, I feel we have, an obligation to be balanced and, you know, to communicate around both safety and both efficacy. Mhmm. And, also, the ability to recognize that this is something new or different that we haven't heard before. Right? And then and then what do we do with that information? Right? Do we need a new study? Do we need to do some database analysis?
All all for the better good. And what advice do you have for current MSLs to prepare for the future? Are there skills that you recommend they develop? How do they get themselves prepared? Yeah. So for me for me, the key thing is is don't think of a one size fits all approach. Mhmm. You know, some of this may be constrained by legal compliance frameworks, but not everybody needs a 20 slide deck and tape them through slide 1 to 20, right, in order and go through a bullet.
To me, it's more around the communication, and telling a story, but tailoring the story. If I'm talking to pharmacist, what are the 2 or 3 key things that I want to communicate? If it's a nurse, what are the 2 to 3 things that I wanna communicate? If it's a physician, what are those 2 to 3 things? If it's a CDC official, you know, what what do I need to communicate?
So for me, it's taking that look and tailor your communication and your efforts to what the stakeholder needs and wants rather than what you think that stakeholder may may need or want. And how about MSL leaders? What advice do you have for MSL leaders as they begin their not begin, but if they had to look at the future, what can they do now to set their careers up and prepare for the future? Yep. So so for me, it's to take a a broad view, Tom, of training for current MSLs that may have.
Mhmm. I'd also look more broadly, at what they're doing for recruitment. And when I say broadly, I really mean broad. One one is the technical scientific credentials you may have. Right? We talked about doctorates or Mhmm. Nursing degrees or or pharmacy degrees, the ability to communicate and communicate effectively, and some and succinctly. But also when they're looking at the teams is to think of diversity, equity, right, inclusion.
We all talk about it, but to think of it holistically, right, and in in every aspect could be race, could be ethnicity, could be gender, it could be age. Mhmm. And it could be a number of other things that we're not talking about. But when you start thinking like that, then you can start matching your internal expertise with the external needs.
Mhmm. And they may not all be the same because if you're looking after, an an 8 year old, it may be very different to what you're looking for if you're treating a 30 year old. Right. You know, we recently, we've heard on the gender side of things that women are often underdiagnosed for cardiovascular disease.
And and, you know, just having those different perspectives, you know, coming in and feeding into into your MSO organization as a leader can only help make you better, can only help make you more effective. And I think at the end of the day, it it results in better patient care and outcomes. Yeah. And that's always the goal. Right? Always the goal. Awesome. Well, Eddie, we'll leave it at that. Thank you so much for being here. That was an amazing conversation. I knew it wouldn't disappoint.
And, I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you coming on. Same here, Tom. Absolutely. Appreciate you as well, and thanks for having me on. I've enjoyed it. Yeah. And, guys, thank you as always. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing this episode and and all of the support that you've given this podcast over the years. You guys are the best, and I appreciate you tuning in every week, and we will see you soon. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.