Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kirsten Gertowski, and she's an MSL with Novartis. And we talk about the do's and don'ts of networking for MSLs. And to be honest with you, it's like networking for all career professionals. Kirsten's awesome. Like, literally was taking notes the whole time I was doing this podcast with her. I know you guys are gonna love it. So don't forget to check it out on YouTube as well.
And, follow me on LinkedIn and check us out on MSL talk live, which is typically the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Kirsten. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Hey, Tom. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. I am excited to be here. I know we've talked about it. I'm a big fan of the podcast. And I am so glad that you reached out.
So, guys, just to give you a little context, Kirsten and I met, I don't know, a year or 2 ago. Mhmm. And we're working together a little bit. So she got into industry. We've kept in touch. And she's just one of those people that has she's followed the podcast, and I've seen her comment and like and share episodes. And, so got to know her. She reached out with a great idea, and here we are.
And I'm excited to do this because so just to give you guys context, we're gonna talk about networking and how important it is for MSLs, what the do's and the don'ts are of networking. But if you're not aware, the very first podcast that I've ever done for the MSL Talk podcast was about networking for MSLs. Shout out to Amy Misnick, who was the first guest that I ever had on. And to this date, fun fact, that episode is the single most downloaded episode in MSL Talk Podcast history.
It's now 3 years running, and it's by far the highest and most downloaded episode. So I don't know, Kirsten. Maybe we could do the same thing here today. Hey. I'd love that. I'm up for the challenge. So before we get to that, why don't you do a quick intro, tell everybody who you are, where you're from, all that good stuff? Yeah. Definitely. And first of all, I do have to say it's probably no surprise you hear this in other episodes.
I do have to say any kind of views and opinions expressed today, they're my own. They don't reflect those of my company. So I am Kirsten Grotowski. I'm a PA by training. Spent my career a little bit in cardiology, but majority was actually internal medicine, both inpatient and outpatient. I think a lot of clinicians can relate to this. I worked through a good chunk of the pandemic. There's a lot of clinician burnout. It was very difficult.
And I knew I always wanted to be an MSL, so that was really the time where I decided, you know, this is the time to take a chance on it. I went back for my PA doctorate and after a lot of work, I'm sure we'll talk more about that journey and how networking came into play, Started as an MSL for a very small device company. Loved the job, but I traveled a very significant amount. So my current role actually came up where much smaller territory, differs though.
I'm an MSL now for a large pharmaceutical company. Awesome. That's a listen. I've followed it, so I was actually there before you got in. It's a great story, and I could tell you that you, you truly earned it. You deserve this career progression and trajectory. And I know that she's not gonna say this, so I will. She's killing it, and she's actually about to get accept a huge award from her company because she's doing such an amazing job. So congrats to you. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
So let's jump into it. So we're gonna talk about this this concept of networking and how important it is for MSLs. But not really not just for MSLs. How important networking is for career professionals. But for you as an MSL, tell us how networking plays a part in what you do on a daily basis. Yeah. So the one thing I really wanna get across is how huge networking is as an MSL.
I talk to so many aspiring MSLs or ones who have entered the field, and they're like, oh, I'm just so glad I don't have to deal with that anymore. But, you know, surprise, it never goes away. It's a huge part of what you do as an MSL day to day. So for me, I regularly am networking. I do it virtually. That can be through LinkedIn. Even logging on a few minutes a day, that can be through social media like Twitter. We all know major KOLs really like to use Twitter.
Conferences, those could be national conferences. Those could be regional or local. But also another thing to keep in mind is internal networking is huge at your company. So some of these companies are very big and you wanna get to know people in other therapeutic spaces, people in medical affairs, many go on and they may decide they wanna do something besides MSL. So all of those things come into play as your networking day to day as an MSL.
Yep. And I know we hear a lot about it, and you just made very good cases. You you obviously gave us some good examples. So we know it's important, but why is it important? Like, when like, why is it important and when do you use this stuff? Yeah. Definitely. So I could go on and on about why it's important. I think really to narrow it down, there's 2 really major reasons that I like to network. The first one is personal growth or career growth as an MSL. I think that is so important.
When it comes to the MSL world, you have to think there are so many people out there doing the same thing that you're doing, so utilize them. You know, build that network, learn best practices. Someone else may be doing something that works great from them and you can learn from that and model the same thing in your territory. So, for example, there's an MSL that helped me when I was still aspiring to move into this career field.
To this day, we still meet a few times a year, right in the city I live. We have lunch together and we share some great best practices. But in addition, because we work in a very similar therapeutic area, just different disease state, we'll talk back and forth and it's like, oh, you know, that project you're doing, I know someone at my old, you know, job as a PA that will be really interested. Let me connect you. Or this major KOL where it's no surprise we're both reaching out to them.
It'll be like, oh, you know, I can only reach them if I email them after noon on a Friday. So, you know, utilize that for your personal growth. Learn from other MSLs. But I think the second reason is really for that career opportunities. We all know pharma, device, all of those, they're not always the most stable. They can be, but drugs can reach the end of their life cycle. They can fail. Studies can change. Companies restructure.
You wanna have that really big network around you if something were to ever happen. And I've been in that position multiple times where companies restructure or change, and I've been able to just reach out, put a few feelers out there with my network, and all of a sudden have hiring managers contacting me. And, you know, it's secure to know that you have that network helping you with another role if you need it.
Well and, you know, obviously, being a recruiter and being on the you mentioned on the career side of it, the importance of networking. The time to start networking is not when you need a job. Right. The time to start networking is way before that. As a matter of fact, it really should never end. It should be a consistent daily, weekly, annual activity that you incorporate into your day job. So that at the point in time where you need to find a job, you have the network. That's the whole idea.
So look at networking as something you're building every day so that it exists not just for when you need it. It continues to grow so that you can utilize it. And look, it's a two way street. People are gonna be coming to you for favors and asking for things as, like so people are gonna be coming to you to network. Mhmm. You're gonna be on other people network. Look at it as just an ongoing thing that you need to do. Do you agree with that?
I absolutely agree with that, and I try to tell other MSLs that too because you probably hear this. I get MSLs that are like, oh, I get so many people reaching out to me on LinkedIn every week, and it's either recruiters about jobs or aspiring MSLs that want advice. I just don't have time. I ignore all the messages. And it's like, well, why? You know, I don't understand.
I understand that we're all very busy, But at the end of the day, I mean, it takes you 30 seconds to send a polite message back to a recruiter, maybe even say if you have another candidate you think would be a good fit to let them know. And with recruiters too, you know, they can keep track of this. So if you ever find yourself needing a job, they can go back and see who actually responded to them and then who ignored those messages. Same with aspiring MSLs. Right?
I get it's a lot of work and time to put into responses and having conversations, but it becomes full circle. I've helped a lot of people, and then there's been times where a company I'm at is in the news, and they'll reach out and say, hey. Just wanna make sure your job is safe. If it's not, you know, let me know. I'm here to help. It's so it's so important, and I think it's a reap what you sow kinda thing.
If you close yourself off to it, you can expect people to open themselves up to you later on down the road when you need somebody. If you're looking for a job, you're looking for a favor, or you're looking to get to know someone, whatever the situation might be. So I totally agree with that. So let's get back to the MSL position because I know that there's different types of networking Mhmm. That exist within the role.
So can you talk about the different types of networking activities that you need to do consistently in your role as an M2S? Yeah. Definitely. So, you know, I think in terms of networking on a regular basis, day to day, I do use virtual networking. So that's gonna be for me. Every day, I log into LinkedIn, and there are other platforms too. But for me, log into LinkedIn, see what's going on, see what people are posting. It doesn't take long to like a post, to comment on a post.
They it automatically pops up with people that you may have things in common with. Take a second to look at their profile. There may be people you can connect with, send a short message, you know, and learn a lot from them. So I do that every day. I go into social media sites, especially Twitter, see what other MSLs are saying, see what other KOLs are saying. Same thing. I've gotten some really big KOL meetings just by following somebody and liking their messages and being supportive of them.
So when it comes to virtual, that's really big for me. Now in person, that's gonna be more for me conferences, society chapters. So, like, example, Michigan Academy of Physician Assistants, the Nurse Practitioner Associations, Pharmacy Ones, keeping track of all of those and attending them. Like, tomorrow, I'm going to a local conference for a preventative cardiology group. So that's very important to do too.
And that's kind of my day to day is looking at what conferences are coming up, what's going on virtually, networking internally and keeping track of people internally with my company. And in addition, even during KOL meetings, as silly as it sounds, use the KOL meetings because they know other people. If you're sitting down having a conversation, at the end, phrase it in a way where it's appropriate, but say, hey, Who else could benefit from this information?
Is there anybody else that you can think of? Awesome. I love it. That's such good advice. And I hate to jump around a little bit, but I'm eager to get to this because I I love this part of the conversation you and I had the other day. I want you to talk about the importance of networking for your job search. Mhmm. You were a master at this when you were looking for your job. And I think you had said something.
I don't wanna steal your thunder here, but I remember you gave me some kind of crazy number, like you reached out to, like, 300 hiring managers or 300 MSLs or a combination of both when you were looking for a job. So walk us through the networking that you did for your job search. Yeah. So first of all, I just wanna say because I do hear from a lot of aspiring MSLs, like, that just sounds like so much work. I don't know where to start if you tell them something like that, but I didn't either.
I was a PA. I didn't need really a LinkedIn at the time, so I just had a blank profile that just sat there. I just had to figure this all out. So I did. Over time, I reached out to over 300 MSLs, mostly using LinkedIn, but there's also some PAs and industry groups or different things that I use or even some in person networking. And I really had to sit back and organize things because you don't wanna just send blindly, you know, 300 plus requests, right?
So I started out by looking up people that had moved into industry that were clinicians. So, especially PAs or NPs thinking that they may be more likely to help me or answer my questions. And then I also took a second to look at, okay, what therapeutic areas am I strongest in? I come from internal medicine. I'm not specialized in one thing. So I started to reach out to MSLs within those therapeutic areas.
And then from there, you also learn which companies make certain drugs or specialize in certain therapeutic areas. So as I got to know things like LinkedIn, as you know, you can go to a company page, scroll down, and it will tell you, you know, these people live in your area and work for the company. These people went to the same college you did. And you start to learn how you can find out things in common with people and connect with them.
So I would reach out, send a brief message, you know, hey, I would love to learn how you moved from clinical practice to MSL. You know, I'd love to connect. If they accepted it, sent them a more succinct longer message. It would ask people for 10 to 15 minutes of their time to chat and really focus the conversation around them and what they've accomplished because everyone likes to talk about themselves. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And we're gonna get into the nuts and bolts of that in a second.
But before we get there, let's because I know that there are a lot of people that understand the importance of this. Mhmm. And they're doing it to some degree, but they're making a lot of mistakes. Can you talk about some of the mistakes that you see people making when they're doing this? Yeah. Definitely. So when it comes to mistakes, there's a few things that I do see. I think the first one is honestly not knowing your goal.
Are you trying to network because you're trying to get in contact with people in your field to learn best practices? Do you have no idea what you wanna do, but you wanna move maybe into a nonclinical role? Do you know everything there is to know about MSL, and that's the career path you wanna take? So what is your goal? Why are you networking with this person? That's really important.
I think another mistake, like I said, is blindly just reaching out with no message or not even taking a second to look at their profile to learn about the person and just trying to blindly reach out just to get connections. And one thing too is asking people for help. So I mentioned that, you know, people love to talk about themselves, but why would somebody wanna spend time out of their day, you know, helping you or if you're demanding help from them and asking them for something?
People don't always wanna do that. So you wanna phrase things in a certain way where you're like, I really wanna learn about you. I think that that's a great way to get in, to get to know somebody, and a lot of people make those few mistakes. It's I'll tell you, that's my pet peeve right there Mhmm. Is when people come at me and give me the impression, like, I'm some piece of meat some piece of meat. Like Right.
I'm coming to you because you need to help me get a job and, you know, I'm available 30 minutes next week. Let me know when you can talk. It's like, wait. Woah. Hold on. Yes. Slow it down. Like, it it's very off putting when you reach out to somebody and your messaging is so off, and it's so one-sided, and you're not giving the benefit to the other person in some way. It becomes it it almost just becomes a no. Deal breaker.
This is a no. I could tell you that, and we can get into this in a little more detail. But, like, if you take a very soft approach where you maybe mentioned that you're reaching out because someone someone had referred you and you heard that, you know, I hear you're an expert in your in your field. And I really appreciate the way you do business. So and so spoke very highly of you. I know you're super busy.
Perhaps, you know, if you if it wouldn't be too much trouble, you can give me a couple minutes of your time, but but at the same time, I promise I'll repay the favor in some way. Like, it has to be a really delicate, really calculated. You have to ask for what you want. There is to be a call to action. I get that. But you also have to try to give some benefit back to the other person. What do you feel about that? 100% agree with that too.
I think, you know, you do have to acknowledge that they probably have a lot of people reaching out. You get that they're busy. You know, it's no pressure. You definitely understand that you're flexible whenever they have time. All of those things are important, I think, to acknowledge too because we're all so busy. And like I said, nobody owes you your time. But you also there's that fine line where you want to acknowledge, yes, they're busy, yes, you appreciate their time.
But at the same time, it has to be succinct. You also don't wanna be that person speaking of other mistakes that sends 5 paragraphs over to somebody, and they're like, well, I don't have time to read all this. What is this? Honestly, that that's probably my second. Like, in the pet peeve category when it comes to it, like, if you send me a LinkedIn message and it's 3 paragraphs long, and there's a cover letter and a CV, it's like, that is such a no for me. I'm not gonna read it.
There's just too much. And and just guys keep in mind that a lot of the people that you're reaching out to are super, super busy in their day jobs or they may have I get backed up where I can't even get to some of the messages sometimes. So by the time I go through them, I really, really do. I've told you guys this. I try to get to all the messages that come to me so that I can respond and try to give people advice and help people. But depending on my schedule, sometimes I just don't get to it.
So if I do get to 1 and it's like 16 miles long, I'm not reading it. I'm just not gonna read it. I'm gonna skip to go to something else. So be succinct. Be clear in your messaging. Try to use the name of somebody like a referral, a common, you know, colleague, or some type of common connection that you have with that person. That really will help your chances of that person getting back to you. Because, like, if if someone says, oh, Kirsten Grotowski, you know, suggested I reach out to you.
I don't wanna disappoint you, Kirsten. I don't wanna disappoint you and be like, because what if I don't get back to that person, and then that person goes back to you and says, hey. You told me to reach out to Tom, but he never got back to me. Then it's like, oh, wow. That guy stinks. So think about that piece of it. But again, if you're making all these other mistakes, that's why Tom might not have gotten back to you.
It may have nothing to do with anything else, and I might risk my relationship with Kirsten because I just I can't. I I kinda can't do it. I just can't I just can't do it. I can't get past the other stuff. And it I don't I I mean, do I sound like I'm being too picky, Kirsten? Are you are you with me on this? No. I'm a 100% with you, and I can't even imagine. You know, I maybe get 4 or 5 messages a week, but I can't imagine what your inbox looks like. I'm sure it's 10 times worse than that.
So, definitely, I mean, like you said, the messages need to be succinct. You need to make sure you're paying attention to what you say. Completely agree. If you have a name of somebody, that does go a long way too. But at the same time, also as maybe somebody that's an aspiring MSL, you can't be frustrated either. And this is part of the MSL field. There are times you're gonna reach out to somebody and they just truly it just they forget to respond. It happens. You know?
You get so many emails, so many messages. So there's nothing wrong with following up and sending another message, you know, whatever that time period may be, a week later, 2 weeks later. So also keep in mind, people aren't always trying to ignore you. And then it is part of networking is sometimes having to do that initial reach out multiple times. And I'm glad you said that because I will honestly, I'll apologize to anybody that in the past or in the future that I I may not have gotten back to.
I could tell you there's gotta be a really good reason for it because I do try to get back to everybody. So I will say I will take this opportunity to apologize if I didn't get back to you. I promise it wasn't personal. So you mentioned aspiring MSLs. You know that there are a lot of aspiring MSLs that listen to this show. What advice do you have for those guys? Obviously, you were an aspiring MSL at one point. So what advice would you give to your former self or to anybody listening right now?
Well, and I'll be honest. When I was moving into this field, everything I'm talking about as a mistake is probably something I've done. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh my gosh, I can't believe that I did that, it happens. You know, just moving forward, make some changes. But the reason I know all of this is because I've done it at one point or another.
So when it comes to getting into this field, a lot of the things I've said a second ago about trying to organize your approach are those are things that are very important. So, for example, stay organized with who you are talking to. I kept an Excel sheet and that's important for a lot of reasons. So, one, if something ever comes up and there's an internal referral or something within a company you need, go back to your sheet, say, who do I know from this company?
And that's an easy way to reach out and say, hey. You know, is this something you'd be willing to do for me? In addition, you wanna keep track of who you are talking to. Networking a lot of times will kind of move from that email LinkedIn into in person where somebody says, oh, you know what? I think you'd really get along with my colleague or this person. Let me connect you. And maybe they connect you through text or call or whatever it is.
You don't wanna forget you've talked to that person because I have had people do that with me before because they couldn't just go back into LinkedIn and find the message. And then another thing too with keeping organized, make notes on the people. So as an MSL, there's a process of what you call pre call planning and post call planning.
Go back and make some notes, and it can be things about their family and upcoming vacation that they have, whatever it may be, because networking, another tip, is that it's not a one time thing. You can't reach out to somebody like many people do with me and say, hey. Keep me in mind for any jobs that come up because I'm not gonna remember when there's multiple people reaching out each week. Right? Like, you're just not gonna keep that person in mind.
So you need to go back to that person to continue to build that relationship, continue to keep that communication going, not just reach out to them one time. And that's where it's nice to be like, hey. You know, last time you said you had a presentation. How did that go? Or you said you guys were going on a family vacation. How was the vacation? So keep in mind, those little things go a really long way. I'll tell you. You know, I'm gonna stop right here for a second. Kirsten, you're a pro, man.
Like, you seriously are a pro. Thank you. Everything you're saying like, I'm literally taking notes myself because there are so many things in here that are so good that everyone really needs to pay attention to. I love that. I think that what I'm hearing is that it's not this networking thing is not just for we talked about purpose. Mhmm. But one of the the and the thing that's really important is the main purpose is to build relationships. Right. It's not just to get a job.
It's not just to do something for your MSL career. It's to build relationships. And the way you build relationships is you nurture them, and you remember people, and you show that you're paying attention to people. So all the stuff that you're talking about, taking an an interest, paying attention, repeating or or bringing back something that they said in a prior conversation shows that you're working towards that relationship. You care about that relationship and you care about that person.
I love the idea of the spreadsheet. I know you guys. Most people listen to show a lot younger than me. As you start getting older, you forget stuff. And and as you develop in your career, this networking thing, it takes off and it grows exponentially. There's a compounding effect to this. Start the spreadsheet early. Keep really good track of it. Keep good notes and use it. And maybe you have it for the whole rest of your career.
Maybe this is something that it expands into this database or repository of contacts. And it'll spill out over into your phone. You want to get these people into your phone. You want to have a text relationship and text dialogue with them. So at some point in time, you may wind up that spreadsheet may wind up being altered so that once you get that person in the phone and you have this this new relationship, it's a it's a long term I'm sorry, not a long term relationship.
Now you could take them out of the spreadsheet because you don't have to keep track of it because you already have them in your life. I don't know. It'll grow, but I love these concepts. I think they're amazing. I have to ask. You you, like, you you're really good at this. Like, what other tips or tricks do you have that you could share with people? You know, I think there's a few things I would say, you know, and some of these are smaller things too.
I think your attitude is really big, both of your networking internally, externally, aspiring MSL, it doesn't matter who you are. I talk to a lot of the aspiring MSLs that get really frustrated with the process. So when they're networking or reaching out, they're like, oh, I'm just ready to give off. This is awful. It's so tough to get in. You know? So keep that positive attitude.
And I think same thing with you know, you've said this before on your other podcast about how people answer the phone even. If you're trying to network with somebody and you're talking to them for the first time, don't be that person that's like, oh, hey. Yeah. That's right. We're talking today. Sorry. It's just, this week has been awful. You know? You wanna be the person that's like, oh my gosh. You know? Hey. I'm so happy to talk to you. How are things going?
Little things, even if you're now working with somebody virtually or by phone or however it is, background noise is a big thing. I mean, I am that person that loves to put in my headphones and take calls from the gym, but I can do that with an internal colleague where we're just checking in on each other's weeks. If it's somebody where I'm presenting myself to them for the first time, you wanna make sure you're minimizing those distractions and really showing that they are the focus.
And I think, like I we, you know, we were kinda saying before about aspiring MSLs, recruiters, whoever it may be, I think another tip is just there's nobody too small or irrelevant or anything like that when it comes to networking. It doesn't matter who they are. I have people in my network that aren't in industry, aren't clinicians. It's still very worth it to spend the time on those people. Even just taking a minute or 2 to respond to somebody, that does go a long way.
Yeah. I mean, there's a there's a part of this where it's just about giving back a little bit and paying it forward and making sure that you're being a good person. I I don't know. I I have a soft spot in my heart for, you know, people that are that are trying to advance in their career. And, you know, that's what I do for a living is I try to help people see their dreams come true.
I try to help people get their dream job or, you know, advance in their career and get that promotion that they've been dying for. And I get I gotta be honest, I get a lot of, you know, excitement. And and I look forward to to to that piece of it. So even the smallest gesture may be huge to someone else. So I agree with that. The other thing is you can't give up, guys.
If if your dream is to become an MSL or to become an MSL manager or you wanna be a VP, whatever your dream is, you'll never get there if you give up. Never happens. So just remember that you're probably closer to your dream than you think. So just keep going. Keep utilizing all of these tips, tricks. This is really, really good practical stuff, and it's not complicated. This isn't rocket science. This is really easy stuff to do.
Yeah. Okay. Kirsten, last thing I wanna ask you is now that you're an MSL and you're killing it and you're getting awards and you're like a big deal now. So what advice do you have for other MSL's as we look into the future? Obviously, it's a changing world that we live in. Medical affairs is getting complicated. There's Yep. A lot of different things that we're in transition with technology and artificial intelligence and omnichannel and all this other stuff.
Yeah. What advice do you have for folks? You know, I think the biggest thing is honestly just to use you know, on this topic, keep using various sources of networking. You know, there are MSLs that I've talked to that they've been an MSL for 20 years, and they've always done things in person. They have their list of people. They'll meet whenever they want, and they just you know, they can kinda keep on that cycle.
But as things advance, you really have to be open to all of the different possibilities that may come our way rather than saying, oh, I don't wanna do that. That doesn't work for me. So keep in mind, like I said, virtual, yes, you have email and that's great, but not everyone checks their email. Again, LinkedIn is great. We've now moved into this world where social media and Twitter are different platforms.
I think we're gonna see more career platforms out there in the future, so be open to joining those and being involved in those. Like I said, conferences, it's not just the major national ones. Look within your state, look at your chapter societies for some of your PA, NP, pharmacy groups, whoever it may be. Even if, like, for example, I'm a cardiology MSL, look up your internal medicine conferences that are in your state. You're still gonna find connections through that.
So my biggest advice to MSLs is continue networking, use various tools when it comes to networking, and just never stop. It only takes 15 minutes or so a day. You know, and I think that that really goes far. Now another thing I will say, the same advice that I had where it's like, hey. Let people talk about themselves is a big thing in the KOL and MSL world too.
So one of the things that gets me the furthest with working with these KOLs, they're sitting there all day and a lot of them see patients all day and they're having people ask things of them or talk to them. So I really build those relationships by allowing those KOLs to speak rather than just being that person that wants to data dump and give them all this information. It's asking them questions, learning about them personally, asking them to speak.
If I come away from a half hour conversation and only 10 minutes of it was spent on anything medical, I'm okay with that. You're awesome, man. You got this down. You're really good. Kristen, thank you so much. You're amazing. I wanna just we we should probably do this again. We have to think of another topic because that was, like, the fastest 30 minutes. So thank you for coming on. And, guys, thank you for listening to the show.
It's it's been 3 years over 3 years since our first episode on networking. So it's kinda funny how we're coming full circle. I think this is episode, like, 154 or 155. So, and it's people like Kirsten that have made it what it is. So I thank you, and I thank you guys for listening. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.