Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Mitch D'Risario. He's an MSL from Genentech Roche, and we talk about digital tools and how to map customer journeys in a digital world. So awesome conversation. Mitch is a repeat guest, and I think you're really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and YouTube and LinkedIn, and check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is on Clubhouse, the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. Thanks for joining.
Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Mitch. Welcome back, buddy. Hey. Thanks for having me back, Tom. Couldn't wait. I have to say, you're still one of the most popular guests on this podcast. People ask about you all the time. That's very kind of you. Well, I don't you know, it's funny. It's like it that's that's true. But I think in all fairness, I refer to you a lot.
I I talk about our episode because there's a lot of really good information, so I bring it up. So every once in a while, I have to give you a shout out because, because you're the man. And here we are. We're back. We came up with another idea. So, so we're gonna talk about the digital journey and and, and some real good tips on how to navigate through the digital journey now that's so important.
But before we do that, why don't you do a quick intro for those that may not know you, and all that good stuff? Sure. Thanks everyone for listening in. I know that this there's an international population as well as a US population that listens to this. So I'm really excited to share my experience. I'm a hematology MSL, at Genentech Roche. And so any of the opinions that I have on this podcast are my own and does not represent my company.
And a little bit about myself is I actually developed a new hobby, Tom, since we last spoke. I've been hiking and backpacking. So I just came back from a a 3 day backpacking tour out of the Mojave Desert. Wow. Alright. That's awesome. So it was it was quite an experience. Happy to chat about it. It it might actually show up in the into this podcast as well. Well, that's great, man. Congrats. Good for you. Thanks. It was quite an experience.
And I feel, Satchely was thinking about this podcast while on a hike. Mhmm. And, you know, it's it's so interesting that a lot of our, relationships with our customers, right, the health care providers, it's like an individual hike. Each one of them have has its has its ups and downs. There's always a a destination that you're trying to reach to, but then you also experience and enjoy the process. It's a great way to look at it. Yeah. It's a great way to look. It's it's very poetic, Mitch.
I like that. But it's true. I mean, it it it's, there's there's challenges. And and on this, you know, it and it's also a marathon and not a sprint. So Mhmm. How do you how do you navigate those relationships and try to get better access? And that's that's been a lot of what we've been talking about recently on this podcast because that's what people keep asking me for. They're like, Tom, having trouble seeing my KOLs or access is limited. I'm looking for creative ways.
So I keep navigating back towards this topic. And one of the things that that has come up, and and it's and I've had a number of conversations, is the text relationship Mhmm. And how when you are in a text relationship with a KOL, it just brings things to a whole new level. But how do you get there? It it's it's not easy to just jump into and be like, hey. Give me your cell number so I can text you. Like, you know, you gotta work into it. So let's talk about that.
Like, what kind of questions can you ask? Or how would you try to engage KOLs into somehow getting into that text relationship? So I try to be, curious. And so I asked them, on our first introduction, one of the questions I asked them is, what is your preferred method of communication? Do you prefer emails? How, what do you prefer? Zoom calls? Do you prefer, texts, or phone calls? Right? So, like, what is what is what is what is it something that you you prefer?
Mhmm. And that that really gives me an idea of, like, what kind of, what kind of mode of communication that they prefer. Right. Right? So I have a couple of, customers who, right off the bat, they're like, Mitch, I want you to, like, have my phone number, text me if there's anything that comes up that's urgent. And there are others that prefer just email. Right. So how important is it? I mean, because you met you mentioned the word text.
So it's a it's a suggestion coming from you in hopes that maybe they say, oh, yeah. Text. Yeah. That's of course. Yeah. Like, is that why you're mentioning it? Is it really a suggestive thing? It is, it is giving them options. I think Okay. As you know, like, we all prefer options. Right? Like, we always want the opportunity to say no to something. We always like to, know what are the options out there that I can choose from. So it's it's about giving the customer the choice. Right?
And as you know, each journey is different. Each one of them each of the journeys have had their pain points, barriers, and opportunities. So how well I understand their journey and where they are and and how I show up is really important. So you have this conversation, and you ask the you know, you give you ask or give options. Right? Yeah. You're asking what's your preferred what are you hearing back? What are what are KOLs saying to you? What's their what's the preferences these days?
It depends on their comfort level. Right? So, Tom, if they are, someone and you know the phrase digital native and digital immigrant. Mhmm. Right? Digital natives are individuals who are just coming out of fellowships right now. They've grown up around technologies, and they feel comfortable with it. They're more likely to suggest, you know, texting versus a phone call.
Whereas, digital immigrants are people who are adapting to these technology, and and they might prefer listening to someone's actual voice when they're talking to them or seeing someone's face when they're talking to them. So it varies for me. I just had an introduction with someone where they they were open to send me their, give me their cell number. They're and they prefer that I text them if there's something that's urgent that comes up.
The other one other thing that's important, Tom, is that, why should they communicate with you? What value do you bring to them? Right? So it's not a matter of, like, hey. Can you give me your information? Like, it's more about, are you coming off as someone who's trustworthy and and worthy of their time? Because we're such, we're living in such a we're living in a pandemic. We're living like, there are work life balances are maxed out.
A lot of my customers are oncologists who are who don't even have time for lunch. Right? They're really busy people. Why should they give me my give me their time? Right? Am I worth their time? So establishing that early on during an introduction, and if it's something that I can establish, making sure that I establish establish my worth to them over time Mhmm.
Is when I would so maybe it's not gonna be at the introduction that I wanna ask them for their, in what kind of mode, mode of communication they're happy with right now. Maybe it's after successive interactions that they might switch from phone to text or video. So you're earning the right to get into that text relationship? Exactly. And you mentioned, you know, establishing and creating value. So how do you do that? I mean, you also mentioned pain points.
So is it a matter of establishing the pain points and trying to decrease their pain in some way to establish the stronger create value, and then get on a totally different level. I'm kinda answering your question, but but what how do you what how do you create value? The other pain point is that there are 2 pain points. 1 is that there's so many MSLs that are trying to get their time. Right? Right. How are you different from the other MSLs? Mhmm. Ask them that question.
Mhmm. And then the second thing is that they're just stretched at their bandwidth. So you're showing up with empathy for them. Mhmm. Do you understand what are some of the, some of the pain points that they're going through right now and why they may not wanna give you their, why they would prefer certain mode of communications over others? Right? Like, maybe they wanna have email because that that way they can filter it easily versus getting constant notification. Right?
Mhmm. So a couple of values that I bring, obviously, the scientific merit is important. Right? Mhmm. Obviously, having a that deep pipeline is important. But then also, am I being succinct? Mhmm. Am I being clear? Yep. And am I someone who's not being meaty of their time? Right. So those are things that are really important as well. Right. No. It's good stuff. That's really good stuff. And, a lot of this is a lot of what we're talking about, it's in this information. It's coming from I've just.
It's asking the right questions and probing. So how what other questions would you say are really you gave us some really good ones in the beginning, but as we're looking at this relationship building, digital world, and navigating through this digital relationship, or, you know, digital world, what other questions are important? I think another, question that has been a game changer for me is asking them directly, what is the cadence that you wanna hear from me?
Mhmm. Okay. How often do you wanna hear from me? Do you wanna hear from me once a quarter, every every 6 months, or once a year? And, again, I'm giving them options. Right? Because then they can choose which ones they prefer. Yep. And then, also, like, they can they have the option to say no. Maybe they don't wanna meet once every 3 every 4 months. Yep. And they want a longer time.
Yep. The other question that I the the other thing that I kind of, like, look for is when am I getting responses from them? So if I'm sending out an email, am I getting email responses early in the morning, or am I getting them in the evenings? And if I'm getting them at a certain time and I'm seeing that pattern showing up, I will actually time my emails so that it reaches to them at that time that they're responding back.
So if they're a morning person, I make sure that I'm scheduling my emails. Even though I'm drafting it the night night before, I make sure that it's scheduled to go around that time. That's perfect. I mean, that just makes total sense. And I wonder how many people tune into that. And that's I think that that's really intuitive to be able to say, this is when I'm getting the most responses. So this is when I need to play in that sandbox.
I mean, there's, like, research done where they've seen that sending emails on Mondays Fridays would not get you any response. That makes sense. Mondays are right after the weekends. You're trying to catch up with all of the stuff. And then Fridays are right before the weekend, so you're you're not, not going to respond to it. You're probably gonna not going to respond it or respond to it later on after the holidays, after the weekend. Yeah. That's no. That's I think that's great advice.
Let's get back to text for a second though because that's it could be such a game changer. Is there is there are there any other creative ways and compliant ways? I mean, not, I have to be careful. I don't want to keep hammering this home. But like, you know, tactful ways to try to get into that text relationship. The other opportunities that are there, and this is something that other, speakers, on the podcast have talked about is looking at their publication history.
But I like to take it a level higher. K. So can I share an example? Oh, that's yeah. Can't wait. So I was meeting with this, with this amazing, retina specialist, in, Ohio. And while we were discussing, I was bringing up a new dataset that we had and, I was sharing that information with him and he stopped me. And he said, Mitch, you know, I've actually published on this and I've published on it extensively. You can look up the publications. Like, these are things that I I know already. Right?
And and I was like, you know what? You're right. You are the expert and I need to be better I need to do better in understanding your publication history and who you publish with. So here's what I did. I started writing a code, a computer code that would allow me to look at PubMed and link people by their publication history.
So what it does, it it it allows me just think of it like a large web, like a large constellation, and you can take individual authors and you can see who are they publishing with the most. Because the more people they publish with, the closer those people are gonna be to their hub. Right? And then you can also find hidden connections. So people that you may not have thought about and might have been missed opportunities for you, but they might have distantly published on one paper.
And so the way that I the next time that I met with him or her, the next time with when I met with this person, what I did was I said, you know, you have this really interesting paper around the 2 around the early 2000. I've really found that interesting. I've been trying to meet with this other person who was a coauthor. Do you still stay in touch with them? Would you be open to, introducing me to them? I love it. And what it does, it it builds credibility. Right?
They understand that I'm actually looking up their papers. Yep. I thought it was, and it it was really helpful because it allowed me to, have a warm hand off with someone that I was I didn't know. They didn't know me well, and it it led to deeper, deeper conversation with both of the customers. It's brilliant. I mean, that's brilliant. And the information's out there. You just gotta dig.
Now not maybe not everybody has the computer skills that can write codes, you know, to kinda do that, but they can all they can totally do the legwork. Right? I mean They could. So I would I mean, I just think that that's a great recommendation. Obviously The other thing that I've been looking at now is post pandemic. I feel like it's it's unlikely that people are gonna feel comfortable giving each other business cards. Mhmm. Right? It's just may not be possible.
So I've been looking into dig digital business cards. Like, what are some of the ways that I can text someone my contact information? It would directly go into their phone. Right. Whether it's There's a couple of them out there right now. Exactly. So whether it's QR codes that can they can look up and it would directly go into their phone, It saves them that time instead of getting a physical business card and then typing that information into their phone.
What are some of the easier ways of doing it? So you can do it I'm not so I didn't even think of the QR code thing. So because I know that the ones I've seen out there, like Oovo Oovo or something like that, there's another one. It's like Mobileo card or something. Yeah. There's a couple of them out there. And Some of them are actual, like, physical cards that physical cards. That, sends, your phone. Right? Right. But I don't even need to do that.
There are there are far simpler ways where you can use QR codes and, Right. Literally ask them for their number if they're comfortable or the email addresses and then send them a link with your information. And they click on it, and it would directly there's one one button that they have to press, and it, saves it directly to their phones. That's awesome. That could be a game changer.
And that's another you know, getting back to taking the relationship to the to a new level, getting into this you know, it's a totally digital technology, and now you're in the person's phone. Right. And then can I share, another example that I learned recently? Right. So this is something that came from my barber. And I think that's something that I really enjoy is learning from other people and other people's experiences and seeing how I can use it.
I mean, barbers have customer, multiple customers. Right? They have a busy schedule. And, so my barber uses a website that allows him to that allows me to pick a time on his schedule when I can have an appointment. And I was like, why can't I do the same thing for my customers?
Why can't I be more customer centric where instead of sending out emails back and forth trying to find a time, why can't I just send them a link that directly, connects with my calendar and they can pick a time and day that works for them? Yep. And so this has allowed me to schedule appointments and meetings, quickly, and it is very customer centric. So it's, it allows them, again, giving the customer the choice to find the time that works for them. So how's it been working for you?
I mean, you you like, is it has it effective? Are people receptive to it? Yes. So most of them are, obviously, you have to you have to use this question. Right? Like, so I'm not gonna send this link out for an introductory email. It doesn't make sense. Right. But if I've actually built a connection, it's been really super helpful because my calendar gets, busy quite quickly, so does the customers, and we were able to find times that work for them. So what do you is it which one do you use?
Calendly? Something similar to that. Because I see that one out. I see a bunch of them out there. It's like, there's Calendly. There's, what's the other one? There's a couple of them. Mhmm. But what's actually what's good about it is you can customize and then block out certain times so that they're only seeing the times that you want to show that you're available, and the rest don't even show up. Exactly. You can set your own working hours.
You could, and then also some of these, apps, change the time zones that the customer's at. So I could be in the central time zone, but sending the link out to a customer in the eastern, east eastern, time zone, they would be able to pick it based on their availability. Perfect. Awesome. So how I mean, let's kind of venture into the conversation of how has access been for you lately? Is it getting better? I think virtual engagement is here to stay.
Okay. I think the it's it's it's it's really competitive getting time. There are many many companies that have MSLs that are seeking appointments. So it's it's I think it's increasingly important to demonstrate your value and being human. Yep. And showing empathy, which we talked about. Right. My dad is a phys my dad was a physician in Bangladesh and Iran, and, I grew up watching him interact with industry.
And, the people he valued the most were the people who led with empathy and people who had valuable insights and were good listeners. And the rest were there to hand out writing pads with the logos of the pharma companies that they were on. So I'm grateful for that because I never had to buy books, like no books. But, I think that's really important for us as MSLs to think of how do we provide value. Right. And then, I think we just have to adapt to both virtual as well as in person.
Something that I feel, is true is it's easier to maintain a relationship virtually. It's really hard to do introductions virtually. Yeah. Like, you need that physical you need to be physically there, present, meeting with someone at the conference. I I don't think that's gonna go away. Yeah. Well and I think I really do think we're getting back there. I think we're getting there. I'm starting to see a lot of people traveling. Conferences are coming back.
It's I I really think we're getting back there. I mean, to your point, I think that the virtual tools and the ability to interact virtually is going to stay. But the best relations and this is a bias that I have because I come from somebody that I started my career in the field. And I'm, you know, that was a long time ago. So you're talking old school. And, you know, I so I'm used to and know that the best relationships are when you get in front of a person.
Now over the course of the pandemic, we didn't have the ability to get in front of the person unless it was in front of a computer screen. So you take what you can get, but, ultimately, if you had to have the choice between a live engagement and a virtual engagement, I'm taking the live every time. I agree. I think we're social beings. I think we learn a lot when we actually are physically at a conference versus virtually. There's a lot more distractions that are involved.
Yeah. So I definitely am hopeful, and I'm seeing a lot of positive momentum towards, meeting in person. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait. I'm I'm looking forward to getting back out there. So let's let's get back to the digital stuff. What what's your feeling on social media? Are you following your KOLs on Twitter and LinkedIn? So how do you use social media these days? I do I do follow them on Twitter and LinkedIn.
I think it's value really valuable to kind of understand, what are, well, first of all, I mean, like, these social medias are really important to understand, how are they interacting with the community, with their peers. And, sometimes they share their opinions on there as well, which is sometimes helpful, for medical affairs.
I think anything with social media, I, I think we're increasingly becoming aware that social media tends to, the the content that we have sometimes exposes the extremes of opinions. Mhmm. Right? So something could be really, really good or something can be really, really bad. But it's so I think it's really important for field engagement and field medical to be able to triage the nuances between the, the comments that we're seeing in in social media.
Yeah. I think I think you learn you kinda have to be an observer first. And you learn by seeing if somebody if you have whether it's a k l or, you know, internal partner. If you see that they're really active on Twitter, let's just say, where they're really active on LinkedIn, and they've adopted that social media, that social medium, well, then it gives you cues as to how you may or may not be able to interact. Or maybe you don't interact at all. You just glean information Mhmm.
That's gonna help you in that relationship. Right. And you can also see what are some of the responses that they're getting so you can kind of understand the dialogue Yeah. Which is really helpful. But then, you know, it also depends on the personality. Certain people are more comfortable being in public talking about things versus others might be more introspective. Right? So I definitely feel that there's a role for, social media, but I don't think it's the only thing that's available.
I think it doesn't replace field engagement and, MSL activity. Yeah. No. Totally agree. Totally agree. And it's also a two way street for me, because, not only are we observing them, but they're also observing us as an MSL. Right? So the content that I put in, on social media demonstrates my credibility and value. It also showcases maybe that I am human. Right? Maybe I am going through, much like them, I'm navigating a pandemic, balancing work life, dealing with, being in a large organization.
Right? So these are I think I think, it's really important to be aware of what you're posting on social media as well. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. It's it's, you know, you just gotta think to yourself, everybody's seeing this or there are a lot of people seeing this. And you have to just make it a practice to think to yourself, you know, who's actually gonna be looking at this? Right. Yeah. It definitely also demonstrates value indirectly. Right?
If you come across as someone who's sincere and caring about certain situate certain, topics, you know, mental health, psychological safety, these are things that are big things for me. And I have seen that there are certain customers who who interact with that content when I post it. So I know that is something that's important to them as well. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So No. You can learn a lot. You can learn a lot. Yeah. But you just gotta be careful.
So when you mentioned activity, How's how are things as it relates to is it tough to maintain numbers and activity and metrics during this time? It could. I I think it's really important to there are 2 things to it. I think, well, number 1, it's really important to have compassion compassionate leadership. Right? So having, managers who are leading with empathy, who are there to support you through the ups and downs of your career.
And I'm I've been blessed by having having some wonderful managers who've worked for and work, who I've worked for and work for currently. Mhmm. The second thing is there's that famous quote. Right? Culture eats strategy for breakfast. Mhmm. Yeah. And so it's really important for me to to not only think about the metrics and the numbers, but think of, who are who am I surrounding myself with? Right.
MSO job can be a very lonely job, right, if you're only thinking about metrics and your quick successes. But am I surrounding myself with like minded people who are who are open to knowledge sharing, who are open about talking about it, failure failures and learning from mistakes. Because that that is what makes a team stronger. Right? It's not the quick successes and putting, like, stories up.
It's more about, you know, where where did someone fail, what were these barriers, and what did we learn from it? Right. So I'm I I know I'm not directly answering a question. Well but I think it's really important to, for us to not only think of, like, numbers and trying to quantify impacts, but then also think about being open and vulnerable with, as as as professionals. No. It's a good point of view.
I mean, it's it's definitely a a different take to an extent on because a lot of times, it's when it comes to the metrics conversation, it's just yeah, yes or no. Qualitative, quantitative. I'm able to do this. I'm not able to do that. So to look at it from a cultural perspective and look at it the way you just kinda, you know, kinda spelled it out, I think is is, is a is a unique perspective, but I think it's an important one.
I mean, you can do a lot of, like, numbers on, like, how many interactions have you had. Right? Like, those those are some some of the things that I've heard of before. But, you know, there's there's also value in understanding why did, initiative fail. Right? Right? And what were the struggles there? What were the barriers? What was the issues there? And how could we, as a pharma company, as a pharmaceutical company do better. Right?
Mhmm. It's more about it's less about going into the community and trying to change them. It's more about going to the community and letting it change us. Right. Right. Yep. Good stuff, man. Mitch, as always, you're the man. You're the best. Final thoughts before we go. Final thoughts. I know a lot of people listening in are probably aspiring MSLs. A couple of things that I have learned recently have been really helpful is to, 1, focus on your strengths more than your weaknesses.
Think of ways that you're unique as an individual and what you what are some of the unique strengths that you bring to the team. On the hiking topic, kind of bringing it full circle, focus on the journey and the destination. It's not just the destination itself. Just make sure that you're enjoying the whole process of it as well. And then finally, personally, I'm I'm a big advocate for mental health. So, like, focusing on yourself and your own mental health.
These are these are tough times that we're living in and, you know, make sure that you're surrounding yourself with your tribe, of like minded individuals and focus on on things that are important to you. Good advice, Mitch. As always, does not disappoint. I love it. Well, I appreciate you. You're very kind. Thank you for the invitation. Awesome, man. Well, thanks again. We're gonna do so we're gonna have part 3 coming up at some point in time. Sounds good. Alright, buddy. Take care. Alright.
Take care. Bye now. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.