Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Sarah Snyder. She is an MSO recruiter on my team here at The Carolyn Group, and our topic is surround to succeed, building a motivational network, which is an awesome conversation. And, guys, if you aren't following or connected to Sarah on LinkedIn, you should definitely do so. She's amazing. And I wanna make a quick announcement to get ready for and save the date.
January 28th 29th is the 4th Annual AI and Medical Affairs Summit, and that is hosted by Momentum Events. It's gonna be an awesome conference. So save the date and check out announcements on LinkedIn as well because I'm gonna have some discount codes for you guys. So if you want more information, go to momentum events.com, but save the date for January 28th 29th. It's going to be in Philadelphia.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Sarah. Welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Tom. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm excited. It's been a while. Jeez. Oh. We're definitely due for an episode, so I'm excited that you're here. Guys, you know Sarah and I work together, and we met through this podcast, and then we started working together, and here we are. It's probably our 10th episode together.
So, Sarah, why don't you do an intro, tell everybody who you are and that good stuff? Yeah. I think you already alluded to it, but as a quick one, I'm a recruiter on Tom's team at the Carolyn Group. And then I'm also cofounder of MSL Mastery with Tom, which is a program designed to help both aspiring MSLs and existing medical affairs professionals level up with some training to just help you find excellence in your career and in your life. Awesome.
Yeah. And this episode is sponsored by MSL Mastery. So Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Perfect. And we've been planning on getting together to do a topic that's relevant to what's going on right now. It's it's just a very challenging time. The job market is incredibly soft. There are a lot of people that are out of work and trying to get back into work, but it's not just that.
It's because of all the layoffs and because of some of the uncertainty, maybe because of the election, maybe because of some of the economic factors that that exist, it's just been a very difficult work environment. So we decided to talk about the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people, both to help you succeed and to develop what we call a motivational network. So let's start with that, Sarah. You came up with this topic, surround to succeed.
So can you describe what you mean by that? Like, how did you come up with this, and what do you mean by that? I think you started this off perfectly. There's so much frustration out there with people either not getting their job that they want, if they're trying to break into pharma, or if they're already in pharma and they wanna get promoted, feeling like no one's noticing me. I'm not getting recognized. I can't get promoted. It just feel people feel stuck.
And so one face, if you are feeling stuck, a place to look is at the relationships that you have. So by that, we are talking about the people who you spend the most time with. So who you surround yourself with will affect your career satisfaction and, honestly, even the amount of money that you make. So, Tom, do you care if I start with just a couple of statistics? I've got 3 of them.
So the Yeah. So the first one I found was that people tend to make within 10% of the amount of money that the people that they surround themselves make. So if you think about the people, the 10 people that are closest to you, you probably make within 10% of those income brackets.
The second one is really relevant to what you said about the election and just how stressed people are with layoffs, and that is if you spend time with supportive people, you actually reduce your levels of cortisol by 23%. Wow. So that means you're reducing your stress just from being around people that are supportive and lifting you up. And then finally, this is the third one. So if you have that best friend, most of us can relate to that.
Like, the person that you call at work or the person you run down the hall to and chat with, if you have that type of best buddy at work, you're 7 times more apt to feel engaged and have career satisfaction. That's the one that surprised me the most. I wouldn't have thought it would been that high. I know that it can boost satisfaction, but 7 times is a lot. So I think those that just led me to thinking, we gotta talk about relationships and who you're with on a daily and weekly basis.
So and would you say obviously, we're talking about work and career and job search because that that's an element of our world, obviously. How much of like, do you does this but you mentioned best friends and friends. So how much of this is personal? Because I have a I have to imagine this built this is definitely a personal thing as well as it's a professional thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think most of us have heard I know you have the quote that is so that is not a quote. It's research from Jim Rohn.
It's about the 5 people that you spend the most time with end up influencing you the most. There's a lot of scientists listening to this. There's research that goes both ways, and the latest research is it's not necessarily the people that you're surrounding yourself with either professionally or personally, but it's the people's habits.
So it's actually the actions that they take, the habits that they have on a daily basis, and if you look at those 5 up to 10 people, whether it's per personally or professionally, and you're looking at their work ethic, their health, their finances, that really truly is affecting yours. So if you're spending time with the people that have the habits and the actions that you want to emulate and have in the future, you're gonna be more apt to have those personally or professionally, Tom.
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's powerful. Would do you think obviously, these statistics and what we're talking about stresses the importance of who you surround yourself with. Mhmm. Like, how do you go about doing this? Like, is there do you suggest that people do an audit of of their friend group, of their peer group at work? Like, I'm I'm curious as to how you can go about monitoring this. It's weird when you say, like, the audit. Right? Because it makes people really uncomfortable.
And I think that this whole topic is things that it it makes you think, gosh, I don't really think about the 5 to 10 people that I spend the most time with. It is just you wake up, you go through the motions, and those are the people that are in your world, and it's not necessarily this conscious decision that we're making, so it can feel a little uncomfortable. I will say, you know, you asked, do I think? It's research.
It's research, and it's the top personal and professional development coaches who say you shouldn't do an audit. The people that were in your inner circle 10, 15 years, or maybe even a year ago might not be the people that necessarily will stay there. So if you look at the big gurus who study organizational psychology, we have rings of people, so your little ring or your inner ring is gonna be 3 to 5 people. Those are the people that are closest to you.
You're in the center of that, so you're the bull's eye, and then you have this outer ring who are more your acquaintances. Maybe it was professional people you met, you you talk to a couple times a year, but they're not your inner ring. So I think we've gotta start with that audit of the inner ring. Mhmm. Figure out are those people the people that should still be in there?
An easy way to think about it is, Tom, if you've got somebody in your inner ring and when you see their number or their like, it's coming through on your cell phone that they're calling you, and you're we all have that person, right, that we think, oh gosh. Here we go. Your eyes. You're like, oh, do I need to pick up? Right. I mean, you either gonna figure out, like, hey. Do I need to help this person? Like, is this something where I gotta give a little bit more to this relationship?
Or is it that this relationship isn't serving either of us as much as it used to be? And maybe they can move to the outer ring. Like, there's gotta be movements back and forth, but we gotta be more conscious about who's especially in that inner ring, and realize that it can and should change. Alright. So now we we know how important this is.
We do this this what's called an audit, or we try to determine, where we're at with our current relationships, and maybe we start to distance ourselves from certain people. Like you said, maybe you see the phone ring and maybe you're not necessarily picking up. Maybe you're texting the person back or you're spending less time with those people. Let's just say. I mean, is because what I'm trying to get at is Yeah. There's this has to be a proactive thing.
Yes. So once you identify this important piece of your life and and your career, you then have to go find out who am I going to identify as the people that I should be surrounding myself with. So can you talk about how someone goes about not just you do the audit and you separate yourself from certain people, but how do you migrate towards the right people? Yeah. Yeah. I there's 2 things that you can do and you can start on today.
So the first thing is to before you even do these 2 things, you gotta figure out where do I wanna get? What are my goals? What are my values? Because if you have that yet, you're not gonna be able to figure out what kind of people you want in your network.
So if you're listening to this and you're trying to get promoted or you're trying to be a better leader for your team or you're trying to break into the industry, then you know that and you should write that down and you should figure out where do I have what do I have to kinda person do I have to become in order to get where I wanna get. And then seek out the people with those kind of standards, those high standards that are already doing what you want to do. It's gonna be uncomfortable.
This is not something where you're going to want those 3 to 5 people in your inner circle to be the people that are saying, Tom, you're so great. Tom, you're just amazing. You want that too. You want supported network, but you also want the people that have said, Tom, like, have you thought about doing this? Or, hey, maybe you should try this. This would be some constructive criticism to get you two levels up.
So you gotta be willing to put those people in your circle even though it's not always fun. Right? It's more fun to be with the people that we've always been with who make us feel good, and we can just laugh and have those same old stories. You don't have to take those outs, but you gotta at least add some of these new challenged people. And then the second part, I think, that is also a little uncomfortable is to look for people that are not like you.
We gravitate to the people that I'm a pharmacist. Right? So I gravitate to the other pharmacist because we've got that in common. I'm from the Midwest. I gravitate to people that, hey, we've got like minded people. It's easy to say, right? Like, you just need to hang out with people like us. You've got to be conscious of that and work to stretch yourself and go talk to the people that do have different interests.
For me as a runner, I should go talk to the people that like football even though I might not like football and I don't understand it, or like music or art and stretch myself and learn from them. That's how we can really level up. Yeah. And I think that, you know, one of the things that I've seen in in my experience and even when I came from the sales side of the equation, I spent 10 years in in sales.
I remember one of the things that worked really well for me in that that I I just wanted to find out who are the top performers. Yes. And I just migrated towards hanging out with those guys and just asking them a lot of questions and getting to know them and seeing how they go about their their day. What kind of pace do they go at? Are are they are they, like, super fast paced? Are they calculating? Because it it's you'd be surprised.
There's different personalities, and there's different types of people that do things in different ways. So one of the things that I think is really important is to try to emulate and try to find peers that have been successful at what it is that you wanna do and figure out how you can learn from them and get the tricks of the trade and get the answers to the test that's gonna bring you to where it is that you wanna go. A 100%. Love it. You know, and maybe that's what true mentorship is.
Mhmm. And I know we're not just talking about mentorship. I think mentorship's a piece of this. Mhmm. It's definitely a piece of it. But true mentorship is finding someone that's already done what you want to do and try to see if you can learn from that person. Yep. Yeah. I know it's oversimplifying, but No.
It's, I mean, if you think, when I started recruiting with you, if I would have just started reading the books and listening to podcasts or looking even going through a training program, I would have slowly understood how to recruit, but instead, I mean, you guys, Tom invested time out of each and every day to just answer my questions and tell me the way that he had done it and share, hey, I made this mistake.
Hey, this worked really well to me for me, you know, back when I was recruiting heavily, etcetera. And so that took me from here to here so much faster than it would have if I would've just stuck with the books and the training and and figured it out along the way. Yeah. No. I think that's so key. I think the commitment to really putting yourself out there is is really important. What so I know that there's a lot of people that maybe just think, like, yeah. I'll I'll get to it.
Like, I'm fine, or maybe I don't like confrontation, or I don't like to put myself out there. Not confrontation because, like, again, you could distance yourself without confronting somebody, but maybe there's people that just don't wanna put themselves out there. So what would you say to those people? Like, what what are the consequences if you really if you don't pay attention to this? Yeah. Yeah. If you've ever read John Gordon's book, The Energy Bus, if you haven't, you should go get it.
It's a really easy read, and it'll be one that sticks in your minds because he has a concept of energy vampires. And once you hear it, you can't unhear it, and you'll think about your life as, like, you're the bus driver. And if you have these energy vampires on a regular basis, they're just gonna continually drain you, and there's only so much of you. So if you don't, make sure that your network is somewhat balanced. And I'm not meaning that you can't help people, Tom.
Like, this the whole network thing should be you should be more of a giver than you are a taker all the time. But if you're feeling like people zap you from your energy, you're not gonna meet your goals, and you're not gonna be the best version of yourself for your friends and family that you do want to help and perform for.
So I think that if you're trying to break into the industry or get that promotion, it's gonna either take you a lot longer or you're just not gonna get there if you don't minimize your time with, I'll call them, energy vampires. Yeah. I love that term. I do too. I think we all know what that means. Right? So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about how does this relate to job seekers. Obviously, being in our field, and, you know, we talked about that in the beginning.
How how does this concept of of surrounding yourself with others to succeed, how does that affect the job seeker in the job market? This is huge. I mean, we're recording this episode right before the holidays. So a lot of you that are job seekers are gonna go back to Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever holidays you celebrate, and your family's gonna ask you possibly how your job search is going. If you verbalized it before and said, hey. I really wanna get into this role called an MSO.
And what happens is if you didn't get the first time that, you know, that you applied and you come home just so upset and you're distraught, I went all the way through this interview process. Your friends and family can see how hard you worked, and then you didn't get it. And then maybe that happens another time. And then you go to Thanksgiving dinner, and you say, yeah. I'm still trying. People are gonna try to recommend that you stop.
Like, your friends and family that don't understand some of the job market stats and how hard it is and what high goal this is, they're gonna be try to shelter you a little from disappointment and probably say, hey. Maybe you should stick with that clinical or research role. You're really good at it. Without meaning to harm you, they're actually, you know, bringing you down a little bit.
They don't understand, so you gotta find people that do understand the fact of the matter that if you're gonna go after big goals and big dreams, you're gonna have a lot of setbacks. Mhmm. That's where if you can find some of these people that are in your network that have already done it, that person that you said before, Tom, that you're like that's the person you wanna emulate. You can say to them, hey. Yeah. I didn't get the job.
I I did my presentation as best as I could, but came a little short. I was 2nd place. They're gonna say to you, Tom, like, that's normal. You're almost there. Like, that's why I keep up. Whereas your spouse not trying to be harmful, they might be, like, I hate to see you so upset. Let's take a break. Let's take a break. Give yourself a couple weeks. You could always try again next year. They're not trying to harm you, but it really does do just that. Yeah. No. That's so true.
Like, if you're not surrounding yourself or at least confiding in people that understand, that have an understanding of what it is to be in that situation, your family and spouse, everyone may be very well meaning, but they just don't understand. They don't. So that's why surrounding yourself with people that do get it, that do understand, or maybe that have been there, that have gone through the same thing and found success on the other side. Yep. And know, okay. Listen. Just hang in there.
You're really, really close. Totally. Yes. You may not get that advice from somebody that's not in the inner circle. Exactly. Okay. So let's shift gears. Let's talk about MSLs. I just remember when I was out in the field and when you're field based, it gets kinda lonely on the road sometimes. It's kinda almost hard to surround yourself with people. So any advice to to tricks or anything that you can share with MSLs that maybe feel isolated and need to develop a posse?
Yeah. I think I'll go back to something you said earlier, just finding the people that are doing the things that you wanna do. So if you're a more junior MSL, use a phone, use Zoom, set up some meetings either internally with MSLs that have been there a while and seem like they know what they're doing a little bit more than you, or go outside your other your company and find people that maybe you're there in your therapeutic area or in your geography that you could sit down and have coffee with.
Just ask, and you'll be surprised that, you know, that you'll you're gonna get some nos, but you'll get a lot of yeses too. And I think the other thing, I I was in the field too, and it does definitely get lonely. And it's hard to do things like a yoga class or a pottery class or something where you're spreading your wings because you never know where you're gonna be on Wednesday night.
But if you can find a gym that was more of a chain that you can work out at in your territory and be willing to talk to people. I think we're all on our phone looking down, and we're not just saying hello and starting up chats at different places. You might be surprised at who you meet in some of the cities safely, of course, that you're in. So take advantage and network whether you're inside of your company or outside doing your traveling.
Just look for places where people are actively seeking personal improvement and growth, whether it's in their career or life. Yeah. No. It's so true. It just it that resonates with me because I just know that when I seek out like minded people that share, like, the same values, the same core values and the same habits, and align myself with those people, it just it's uplifting.
And I try to find people that that move at the same pace that I do or at a faster pace that brings me to a higher level. Like, I actually try to seek that out. Yes. And I I think that's why you and I got along so well. And when we first met, we just clicked because we have very similar habits. We're motivated by a lot of the same things. We have a lot of the same core values. So I think that a lot of it comes down to the type of person you are, and a lot of it's habits too.
And I know you're very habitual. So can you talk about how important it is to let your habits dictate this process to an extent or evaluating others' habits to make sure that you're aligning yourself with the right people. Yeah. If you have the habit of, hey. I don't work if if you are not working out now, for example, and you want to start working out and you just go sign up at the gym and think you're gonna do it on your own, the chance of you succeeding, I think, is 10%. It's very, very low.
If you have some kind of an accountability partner, some kind of a buddy, someone that you're meeting, or even a trainer, it goes up to almost 95%. Like, there it's shocking, actually, how much your habits are dictated by the people or at least one person that has a similar habit. So if you are a smoker and you are usually at work and a lot of the people are smokers, like, the data shows that it's gonna be really hard to quit smoking. Mhmm. It's same with food, everything.
So it's you know, if you're in a company right now that is has some uncertainty and everybody's gossiping and that becomes the habit, because gossip can be a habit, you gotta find a few people that are like, you know what? Let's make the most of the last couple months that we have or the next year that we have and figure out what projects we can get so we can get some good things on our CV and make some connections.
Like, those are the people you have to gravitate to because it's gonna be way easier too easy to go down the gossip habit. You know what it makes me think of? It just reminds me and I think I could share this. I don't think I'm giving away anything proprietary or confidential. But in in our Aspire MSL program, there's a community. I mean, we have Yes. I don't know. 60, 70 people now that are in the program, and there is a community.
And within the community, a couple of the people started a book club. Mhmm. And it's really taken off. Like, there's a lot of participation. People are getting to know each other. It's become a social thing. They're sharing books that would help aspiring MSLs, books to read to land an MSL position. It's actually brilliant, and it just reminds me of this concept. Yes. Exactly what you're saying, you know, if if you're gonna try to quit smoking, don't be in an environment with a bunch of smokers.
By the same token, hey, if you wanna smoke and and that's your thing, well, then go for it. Put you surround yourself with those types of people. So I don't know. I I'm I'm allowed to say that, right, I didn't give away any sense. No. No. That that's totally, I think, the whole premise of this conversation. If you surround yourself with people that are going after your goal or already are there, you're gonna be way more successful. And that book club, it's not just the book club.
It's the idea that people took initiative and did something really cool. So then immediately, the other people think, well, jeez. What could I do to get some experience or to do something a little outside of the box? And it becomes this thing where it's a habit to think differently and be motivated and be inspired. Yep. Mhmm. Let's get back to MSLs.
Yes. So what would be one piece of advice that you could give to MSLs to stay resilient and connected, despite some of the unique challenges that might be going on in the industry right now? Yeah. Yeah. I'd say take advantage of conferences. And most of us that, you know, were MSLs or are MSLs, you're social. You love meeting with people. It can get so busy at the conferences that sometimes you don't take the chance to meet up with that old friend or colleague that you thought you were going to.
So do it. I think that you're gonna be so happy if you do. And I know myself, sometimes you're like, I just wanna go back to the hotel and relax. Go meet with the people face to face when you have the opportunity. And if you can't do that, maybe your travel's limited or the people aren't at the conference, pick up the phone. Set it on your calendar where you're gonna reconnect to those few colleagues you used to work with that you really connected with.
Check-in with them and make it a scheduled thing where you do that because it's easy to lose touch, and some of those connections are just people that can really lift you up. And I have to ask you because you've developed such an amazing LinkedIn network and you're a LinkedIn guru now. So how important would you say the platform is for and, obviously, we know it's important for networking, and it's a very effective tool.
But this concept of surrounding yourself with the right people, does that apply digitally too? Yeah. And if you think about digitally, it's even I mean, we have computer geniuses that are doing this to us whether we like it or not, and it applies to LinkedIn, Facebook, whatever you're on socially. The more things that you see that you like or comment on, you're gonna see more of that. So all of a sudden, your feed on LinkedIn or Facebook is a product of what you're surrounding yourself with.
So be careful what you're liking. Be careful who you're connecting with. Are they people that are going to lift you up and get you where you wanna be? I you you might think I'm a LinkedIn guru. I follow these people that are, like, way up here doing these amazing things, and their videos are so great. And those are the people that I look at their video, and I don't think, well, mine aren't very good. I think, oh, maybe I could try that. And in 2025, I'm gonna learn how to do that software.
So find those people that are doing what you wanna do on LinkedIn or whatever platform, and then just make sure that your feed doesn't have a negativity and make you feel that way. You gotta unfollow if it does. Yeah. Good advice. Awesome, Sarah. Well, let's leave it at that. That was amazing. Thanks. That went fast as always. It was, like, super quick. Thank you as always for being here. Any last words of advice? Any last words to share with the people before we say goodbye?
Yeah. The only thing that I was gonna leave with is and it's not my own quote. It's Jim Rohn's, and it's stand guard of the door to your mind. Mhmm. Write that down. Just stand guard at the door to your mind, and I think this will all come together for you. You know, it's so funny. I was literally getting ready to end this podcast, and I'm like, I think there's, like, one more quote or something. I literally something in me told me, wait.
I know that Sarah always has that one last piece of advice. So I love that, guys. That's so important. I appreciate you all for all the support for sharing these episodes and for all the people that reach out to me on LinkedIn to tell me, hey, Tom. I just got my first MSL job and I can't thank you enough or whatever. It really means the world to me so I appreciate really all of your support of this show and we're gonna keep it going.
And Sarah and I wish you all the best in all of your endeavors. And if you're listening to this during the holidays, we wish you happy holidays as well. Thanks, Tom. Thank Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss episodes in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.