Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Daniel Snyder. He is a senior medical affairs and HEOR leader. And we talk about the differentiators that help MSLs to stand out and become top performers on their team. So this is a great conversation. I I think you guys are gonna love it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn, and please try to join us for MSL talk live, which is typically the 1st Tuesday of every month. And that's at 1:30 PM Eastern time.
And those announcements are right here on LinkedIn. So we hope to see you then. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL's and all things field medical. Hey, Daniel, welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you, Tom. I'm so appreciative of the opportunity to talk to your, broad base. I'm excited. Oh, yeah. This is gonna be great, guys. So I've known Daniel for a long time.
We actually I had a chance to see him recently at Mass East, and we had a conversation, and one thing led to another. He had this awesome, awesome idea of talking about what it takes to be a super MSL and what it takes to get to the top ranks on your team. So we're gonna get into that. But before we do, Daniel, why don't you do a quick introduction and just tell everybody who you are, where you're from, and all that good stuff? Hi, everyone. I'm Daniel Snyder.
I've been in the medical affairs space coming up on 20 years. I've most recently been a senior vice president of medical affairs at Sumitomo Pharma America and I really enjoy the art of MSL ing, anything to do with medical affairs. Wish I would have known about this particular profession earlier in my career, but that's what I've been doing for the last 20 years.
The first 12 years were in r and d. Wouldn't actually give that up, but medical affairs is just the perfect mix of science and relationship building and having that impact with patients. So I'm just really pleased to be here with Tom and to be able to give you some of the things I've observed over these, almost 20 years in the medical affairs space. It's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be awesome. You guys are gonna need to listen to this a couple of times, I could tell you.
So, Daniel, let's get into the super MSL. Super MSL. Let's talk about Before we, I guess, started, you know, talking about this, like, how do you like, as an MSL leader, how do you go about MSL evaluating MSL performance? Well, it really depends, Tom, on where the MSO is in. Are are they already on board? Are they being considered as a candidate? It really kinda depends. But in terms of evaluating an MSL, let's just say, for example, Tom, that they're on board.
What are the things that I look for? I look for engagement. Are they actively participating in the conversation? Say we're on a field medical call, and they're bringing forth information that they have gleaned from the field, and they're sharing it with their peers. So that engagement is a clear sign to me that they're in tune with what the company objectives are, what we're trying to accomplish from our medical affairs strategy and tactics, and they're contributing.
And they're not just keeping the information to themselves, but they're sharing it with their peers. Being a good colleague is a really important trait of being an MSL. Going back to your question, what am I looking for if I'm evaluating an MSL as a potential candidate to be a member of the field medical team? I'm looking for let's just say they have prior MSL experience.
I'm looking for somebody who can give me specific examples of where they made a difference, making a difference ultimately in patient outcomes, where they've taken an initiative, how they've developed something that, 1, the team can use because quite frankly, in my opinion, you're a member of a team and you you basically distinguish yourself as a medical affairs field medical team as a function of the collective team. So are you being a good teammate and so forth and are you sharing that?
So going back to what I said, looking for those, examples where they've taken an initiative and they've not just to, you know, move themselves up in terms of the hierarchy of MSLs, but more to to bring value to the team and and and of that like. And then thirdly, if they, are being considered and don't have prior MSL experience, and I'm sure that's a topic that you've discussed with with many, medical affairs leaders in the past, Tom.
It's something that, everyone starts out with no MSL experience. Right? You you break into this fantastic gig. The thing I evaluate for somebody who doesn't have prior MSL experience but who has an adjacency, maybe they're a clinician, maybe they're a researcher in the particular therapeutic area, I look for some of the things that they've really pioneered and really done differently, to distinguish themselves and their contribution either to the science or to the the betterment of patient care.
So hopefully, that gives you a a sense of what I look for. Yeah. No. I mean, I think, in a nutshell, looking for those distinguishing factors, people going above and beyond, separating themselves, taking initiative, you know, all those things can be evaluated, and you can be deducted on an interview as well as it can just in the early stages of you being an MSL or just being as a part of the team. You know, what does it take to stand out? Well, you have to separate yourself.
You have to do things differently or maybe more go above and beyond. So I love that. I I'm I'm all about that. So then how would you define and can you describe what a super MSL would look like? Well, that's a really good question, and there's so many different components. It's they've got the right stuff, and it's it's all these different things, and they they have this balance of all these characteristics and behaviors.
And they're not a 100% on all of these, but they're they're high enough on all of these things that I'll I'll describe to you where they they really percolate to the top. They really distinguish them themselves. They're the ones who internal stakeholders will request frequently because they just they get it. They they live and breathe what it takes to bring insights in from the medical community to the organization.
They they they work, cross functionally very collaboratively, and, they're fun to work with. So, I'd say, 1st and foremost, and why we typically target terminally degreed professionals for the MSL profession is scientific expertise. They have a real depth of knowledge in, I would say, the majority of the time in the therapeutic area of the company that they, either work for or being considered for as a MSL candidate. So deep scientific knowledge.
They they have a doctorate, in the therapeutic area. They may be a PharmD. They may be an MD. They're just really, really scientifically sound great scientific acumen. Communication skills are another really good indicator of an MSL who really has that combination of the right stuff. They can communicate to a wide variety of audiences. 1 on 1 engagement all the way to the big audience.
For example, if they're speaking at a national sales meeting to give a broad based disease state overview, They have this ability to pivot, and adjust their communication style to the audience. They they just really have a good sense of the audience. 3rd, and this is a real pillar of being an MSL, they have relationship building skills. They're able to impart a, a trust based relationship with their KOLs, their HCPs, their internal and external stakeholders.
They develop this trust and the way it comes out, Tom, is they get sought after. They get invitations to come back. Oh, when are you coming back, doctor so and so? Because I found this exchange on this particular topic really enlightening, and as you know, I'm in a busy clinical practice. I don't have time to discover the literature I rely on you to keep me apprised of what's emerging in our therapeutic area. And that's really important, that trust, in the relationship.
They have this ability to think strategically. In other words, they are very well aware of what the medical affairs strategy and tactics are and how it aligns with the company objectives strategically. They keep that top of mind. They know how to prioritize every expenditure of effort that they put into interacting with the medical community, interacting with, cross functional partners within the organization.
They they really know what's important and their activities and their output and their productivity is reflective of that. So they they don't go off on a lot of you know, everyone should have the opportunity to, you know, do certain things that are intellectually stimulating, but they keep what's most important top of mind, and that's reflective in their their output. So now the other thing that's really important, with MSLs is the ability to adapt and problem solve.
When I started out in medical affairs, I was a boot on the ground. I I started out as an MSL, and I would say the majority of the time, I had to get done what needed to get done in that exchange with the HCP or KOL in a much shorter period of time.
Of course, I always had the luxury of an hour or more with the KOL on schedule, but oftentimes, the KOL would come into our meeting late and, being, you know, coerced by their their staff that they need to get back to provide, patient care and so forth. And then they would come back into the room and say, I'm so sorry, but we've got to keep this to 5 or 10 minutes.
So that ability to pivot to give that elevator discourse about what you were intending to have, on your on your agenda for that particular meeting in a very short period of time and not get flustered and be able to to articulate what the essence of that objective or those objectives are in a very short period of time without compromising the scientific integrity of the information being exchanged, that's an important characteristic of of a super MSL and being able to do that with poise.
One of the things that I've always done in a situation like that is I start out, I smile, and I'll say, Doctor so and so, you know, I totally get it. Patients come first. So what I'm gonna do is I'll give you the essence of what, I think is important to you, coming out of this, national meeting that is really important and relative to your research interests. And I just wanna give you a a top line, and then hopefully we can schedule another meeting where you have more time.
That really resonates with a KOL to really understand what their what their demands are in a situation like that. Great tip. Yep. The the other thing I would say, it's important for an MSL who really distinguishes him or herself is being mindful of regulatory and compliance guidelines. The last thing you wanna do is be that, member of the team who gets questioned about activities or the things that they say or or they do. They really understand the rules of engagement.
Interpersonal skills are a huge behavioral characteristic of what you refer to, Tom, as a super MSL. They just they really know how to communicate, with a broad range of of individuals, and they they just have this ability to be disarming and to be collaborative and so forth. They're continuously learning and professional. They're really good with their time. They get their stuff in on time.
It's so frustrating as a field medical leader when you have to deliver your monthly report of your metrics of your team, the number of interactions, the insights that your team has gathered, and you have to you have to badger members of your team to get them to put their their, their meetings into the customer relationship management system so that you can you can do the analysis and and and figure out what your team has done over the month.
So being timely, mindful, and and getting your stuff in on time is is a really nice and appreciated characteristic. And then finally, analytical skills and cross functional collaboration. Who doesn't like to hear as a medical affairs leader that MSLX is doing a great job from, you know, various members of executive leadership. Or if you've gone to a major medical Congress and it's one of those events where the CEO and executive management, our attendants, and all these KOLs are coming in.
And the KOL is bragging, about, the MSL that, provides timely information to them. Man, man. So in a nutshell, it's it's a bit of a laundry list, but it's it's things that, Tom, I think are are self evident, not just specific to, being an MSL, but being being a good contributor to an organization. Lots to unpack there. So and if anyone wants to take notes or go back and listen to this again, I think that what Daniel just described is the list of essentials.
Communication skills, scientific acumen, the ability to pivot, relationship building skills, thinking strategically, how to adapt and be a problem solver, having the a a grasp on regulatory and compliance, having the interpersonal and what we would call soft skills or emotional intelligence skills, get being on top of your paperwork and not being a nuisance when it comes to the paperwork side, having both analytical skills and then being
able to work cross functionally to do cross functional collaboration. So that's the laundry list. Now here's my question. So that just described a lot of what I might see in maybe a job description or maybe when we talk about, must haves or just, you know, preferences for top performers. But what are the differentiators? Because here's the thing. How does someone like, there's a lot of people that'll either do some, all, or a piece of each of those things.
What are the differentiators of the SuperMSL of the standout performers? Excellent question, Tom. Thank you, for that question. In my mind, what the differentiator is is that, and I said this at the beginning of the last question you asked me, is that they do enough a majority of those characteristics that I just articulated in terms of what you said very aptly, the essentials. Okay?
They do enough of those, but there's a particular collaborative, contributory, consistent behavior with that individual, where it's they're not out just for their career advancement. They're they see the team, one team, one mission, as essential, for the team, the organization, and ultimately, the betterment of patient outcomes. And what they do by taking this team approach is they elevate themselves.
And what they're showing me when they have that consistent behavior is that they have the makings of being a good leader. I start seeing because they have that team mentality that maybe maybe in a couple years, they keep this up. They may have an opportunity to take on a team, a field medical team and so forth. So it's that ability to contribute to the team environment and the team's success that I think really distinguishes a super MSL, that differentiator, as you said, Tom.
The I guess the other thing is that they have a particular skill that the team really kinda relies on.
As I reflect on some of the, the super MSLs that I've encountered in my nearly 20 years in medical affairs, those particular individuals have this penchant for on their own accord, and then the team becomes reliant on that and appreciative of those, those skills where maybe they have this ability to analyze insights in an analytical way that maybe they're really good at Excel or or or some type of analytical tool, and they take it upon themselves to
collate the data and present it, or maybe it's PowerPoint skills that they just have this uncanny ability to succinctly cut to the chase and and bring those insights to light and and showcase those that really shows the value of the entire team. And they do that in a, a very collegial way. I think I think those are are some of the the differentiators. They they just play well with with everyone, and they they have a positive attitude and a, hey. Let's get this done type of attitude.
You mentioned, and I don't want it to get lost, but you mentioned the word consistency. So what this laundry list and everything that you're talking it's a lot. There's a lot involved in this. And the word consistency really stood out to me because I I'm sure there's a lot of people that do certain things well, and maybe struggle with other things. Or maybe there's some people that can do everything. But the question is, are they consistently doing all these things?
Or is is there an inconsistent nature to their performance? So how important is the consistency piece of this in order to be, quote, unquote, deemed a super MSL or maintain that status? So, great question, Tom. Consistency is critical because consistency leads to reliability. I can count on this individual to do what they say that they're going to do. One of my pet peeves is lack of follow through.
Being able to follow through on what you've committed to do is, I think, absolutely essential for success. If you're not reliable and reliability is a function of consistency if you're not consistent, you're not reliable, how do you trust the individual? So I think it's I think it's a staple Mhmm. For being a really good MSL as well as being a really good contributor to the greater cause. And the reason I say that is I've seen MSLs perform at the highest level and then fall off.
Yeah. Get into bad habits, get complacent, become unreliable. So having the understanding and the ability and being able to do it is one thing. Being able to do it consistently is a whole another thing. Yeah. So that leads me to so we're looking at these these this laundry list, and we're looking at these differentiators. But what about skills? What would you say are the and I know you've touched on a lot of them in our lit laundry list.
But are there skills that you wanna highlight that will that are important for the listener right now? The MSLs that are listening, aspiring MSLs, and even MSL leaders that are listening. In your opinion, what's that skill development matrix? What are people what do people need to focus on 1st and foremost? Excellent question, Tom. So from a skill perspective, it's a combination of these characteristics. Okay?
The it's a skill to be scientifically accurate and sound, but to do it without droning on with too many details. That's a skill. For example, as I've worked my way up the ranks, I've had to adjust my my communication style given the audience. If I'm presenting to executive management or a board of directors, be brief and be gone. You want to cut to the chase, okay? If you get a question from a KOL, you don't want to go off on a particular tangent that's going to eat up a lot of time.
Now, you may want to give that additional detail after you get to the point of what the question is and what the heart of the, the answer to that is. You know, you've got to you have to be able to read the KOL. If you see their eyes glazing over, it's probably too much detail. Being able to read that situation given your your your audience, given your time constraints, that's a particular skill that you just don't naturally, or there are, you know, I take that back.
There are some people that just naturally have that ability, but if you're if you're trying to get better at your trade, the art of MSL ing, being able to read an individual that gets into those soft skills that, you have to be cognizant of that balance between information and too much information and cutting to the chase. I think that's a critical skill of a super MSL.
What we're being able to articulate very quickly and and and accurately what the particular point is, but also being able to, you know, pull in additional details if the conversation continues or needs to continue for greater clarification and so forth. The super MSLs that I've encountered have this ability to read the audience, read the situation, and deliver the right amount of information accurately. I think that's a key differentiator.
So and it's it's such a I mean, there's there's skills, and then there's advanced skills. Mhmm. So you could have very easily said skills. Well, communication skills, emotional intelligence, like you could have easily said, that's not what you said. You're taking this high, very, very high level, what does the skill of the super MSL entail? And you just spelled it out really beautifully. And I hope people, like, pick that up. You pick up that.
What you're saying is not just your ability to communicate and develop relationships, but your ability to read MSLs and and really articulate that piece of the equation. That's the super skill of of an MSL. I love that. But what let's talk about as we as we look at the skill piece, and as we look at these differentiators, what about the gaps?
What are the mistakes, and what are the things that you see people missing when it comes to somebody that might be very good, but there there's some pieces missing? So, I mean, you can't rush experience. Experience takes time. Right? So having a leader, a supervisor, a mentor who cares enough about your professional development to, in a very tactful and professional manner, say, hey.
You know, here are the things I I saw you do really well, and here are the things that I would encourage you to think about and think about how you could have potentially done that differently. In other words, like if you're doing a co ride with an MSL, see what their infield performance is and and and so forth. It's an opportunity for the leader to provide some feedback.
So the the gaps that I see are or have frequently encountered are the giving too much information and not being the thing I was articulating to you, Tom, earlier, that that that higher level skill of being able to read the situation and adjust the information output to fit the need of the situation. That's one thing. The the other thing that I see as a gap oftentimes is, being able to set up enough interactions, meetings, and so forth to to be productive, for the day.
One of the things, especially in today's environment, is is productivity, and that's one of the things that no, maybe it's maybe it's my personal bias. When I started out as an MSL, I learned from my superiors very early on, when you go to a city, maximize your time in the city. In other words, have as many interactions as you possibly can.
You know, there are occasions where based on need or an unsolicited request, you may fly to a particular city or drive to a particular city to fulfill that individual request, and boom, you're heading back home and so forth. That time management, and and forward thinking about how how do I maximize my interactions per unit of time is something that I see a lot of really good MSLs really not capitalize on.
And one of the things I tell my folks is that you shouldn't leave a meeting unless you have already scheduled your next meeting. And what that does is that that will increase the number of interactions that you have scheduled, in your calendar moving forward. So taking advantage of every day that you have to gain as many insights as possible, You're not gonna get as many insights with one interaction per day.
If you can increase that that to 2 interactions or or or more, you're gonna you're gonna be able to gather more insights. More insights that you gather as an MSL, you're bringing value to, your team, the organization, and sometimes those insights can be very eye opening and can potentially impact the trajectory of what the organization is gonna do to increase, patient outcomes. Awesome. You know, I it's funny.
I'm glad you mentioned the time management piece because I think that the the best MSLs out there have a real good sense and good control over that, especially now. Post COVID, access is more difficult. So if you're getting out and you're traveling and you're in a city, make the most of that, you know, that visit.
Or if there's an event and and, you know, you're at a conference or whatever, really maximize the amount of exposure and interaction that you get because you don't know if if and when you're gonna get it again. But and I love the idea of of, you know, making sure you have that next appointment, almost like it's a given. And just, you know, like the assumptive nature of, okay, when do you want me to come back? When's our next meeting?
Because that helps the access piece in the sense that, you know, you don't then have to go back and try to schedule it at another time. You're taking care of it right there. Absolutely. Brilliant. One other thought that came, to mind as I was listening to you, Tom, is resourcefulness is a key differentiator with the SuperMSL.
Access to certain KOLs can be a huge challenge, and I have a number of examples of how long it has taken me in my past to finally break through and get that first appointment with a KOL and so forth. Being able to take advantage of the sphere of influence of a KOL that you've developed a really good relationship with is being resourceful and which helps distinguish you as a super MSL.
And I'll just use the the very, simple, analogy of you're you're having difficulty getting in with doctor x. You have a great relationship with doctor y. You have done your homework and know that doctor y and doctor x frequently collaborate. Well, why would you not take advantage of doctor y's relationship with doctor x to facilitate an introduction to doctor x. That's the art of relationship building. Right?
And, not being able to meet with a KOL you know, there are some KOLs that just are adverse to interacting with the pharmaceutical industry, and that's unfortunate. But you you wanna you wanna figure out, compliant alternate ways of of of gaining access to these, to these KOLs.
One of the things I've done in the past is really being on top of of what the KOL is doing, in terms of podium presentations, publications, and the like, and then figuring out whether he or she is going to be presenting at a a major medical congress. And then waiting in line after he or she gives a lecture on the particular topic that they're presenting at the major medical conference and and going up to him or her and saying, doctor so and so, I'm so pleased to meet you.
I've been trying to meet with you, forever, and every time I've done that, they go, oh, I'm so sorry you've you've had to go through those hurdles. And it always ends up with the development of a really strong relationship because it's showing the KOL that, one, you're resourceful, You've gone to kind of an an extreme measure to set up an appointment that you just didn't rely on email or a phone call.
Maybe the gatekeeper was was a bit of a challenge and so forth, but it showed that you took initiative and that you were interested and you're following the individual. That shows, interest in the individual. And when you have that initial interaction at the conference while you're waiting in line to ask the question and you you ask a really intelligent, relevant question regarding what he or she just presented, it impresses the KOL.
So I would say another key differentiator is being resourceful and being resourceful in a really scientific, meaningful way. Daniel, you're the man. Awesome stuff. Thank you for joining me. Let's leave it at that. But we do appreciate, I'll tell you, tremendous I took probably more notes today than I I don't know, last time I remember taking all those notes. But, guys, I hope you got a lot out of this, and I hope you go back and listen to it. And if you got value, please share it with others.
And, don't forget to join us next time, and and we will see you next time. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.