Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Paul Ward. He is head of field medical at BeiGene, and we talk about the pros and cons of skip level meetings. Awesome information. I know you guys are gonna like this. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and check out all the announcements of stuff that's coming up. Check us out on YouTube. Just type in MSL talk and then join us for our live conversations, which are on the MSL talk live platform, and that is on LinkedIn live.
Typically, the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM Eastern time. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL's and all things field medical. Hey, Paul. Welcome back to the show, my friend. How are you? I'm really, really good, Tom. Appreciate you having me back. Yeah, man. I was excited. And, hey, guys. For those of you that don't know, Paul was one of my first guests when I first launched the podcast.
As a matter of fact, he just reminded me it was episode number 8, and it was about COVID. And, I'll tell you, if you haven't listened to that one, go back and listen to it because I think there's a lot of stuff that, that we got right, and then there's a lot of stuff that maybe not so much. Paul, what do you think? Yeah. We you know, it it was it it yeah. It was such a such an honor to be one of your first guests, by the way. But, yeah, we knew we had to give some some guidance.
You know, I I I remember being, you know, with my team having to figure out what we were gonna do. And Yeah. And like Mike, most leaders and yourself, like, we got we got a lot of it wrong. I don't think any of us would have predicted it would last this long. Yeah. You know? But then it was May of 2020 when we did that podcast. We were still trying to figure, you know, pivot to digital. Are we going virtual?
You know, how how can we help our HCPs that are doing ICU duty as well as, you know, their normal job and just just all the chaos that ensued. So it is kind of fun to go back and listen to that. That's for sure. Well, welcome back, my friend. Why don't you do a quick intro just so that if if anyone doesn't know who you are, which they should because you're the the man. So just do a quick intro, and then we'll get into it. Happy to do it, Tom. Well, my name is Paul Ward.
I am the executive director of field medical at BeiGene. Just been there for about 5 months. So still learning the company, but so far really, really pleased with the team and the the leadership and the vision of the company. So, happy about that. I've been in pharma since 1988. Tom, you were born in 1988, weren't you? Just right around there. It was a little little before that. So, yeah, I've been doing this a while.
Been in, you know, commercial roles, been in the MSL role, been in the regional director role, and a variety of national director roles too. So, just love medical affairs. And, really, before we get on the podcast, I gotta thank you. You know, I wish when I was a young younger, medical affairs professional in MSL, we had resources like the ones that you're creating here on, MSL talk. It's so good. And the fact that you're up to, what, a 117 or so. Right?
Yeah. I just listened to your, talk the other day on, core values. I thought that was spectacular, and that was, you know, it it's good to have Tom Caravella hosting Tom Caravella sometimes. That was really, really special for me. Nice work. Thank you. No. I appreciate that, and I appreciate all the support that we've been getting. And I'll tell you, the show has I think the reason it's become so popular is because of guests like you, Paul. And I'm not just saying that.
I'm I'm serious that we've been fortunate enough to have some of the top top leaders and most brilliant minds in pharma and biotech, specifically in medical affairs that have just shared tremendous wisdom with us. So I'm a fan. I'm a fan of this this this podcast, and I I enjoy it. And I I am committed to keeping it going. So thank you all. Yeah. Please do. Flattered to be considered one of your, guests.
But believe me, I've probably listened to 2 thirds of your podcast, in the car, like, you know, most of my sales traveling, you know, on the on the treadmill, all kinds of places. I learned so much. So it's, it it it it's not, unnoticed or appreciated by me at this stage in my career as well. Good stuff, man. Well, we're gonna get into it. We have a good topic to talk about.
But before we do that, this episode is sponsored by Momentum Events, and there's a conference coming up that I wanna encourage you guys to check out. It's their Medical Affairs Excellence Summit, and it's on October 13th 14th. It is live, and that's in Philadelphia. So for more details, go and check them out online. Go to Momentum Events and look for the medical affairs excellence summit. Use code Tom 20. So there's no space. It's just tom20 and get 20% on your registration.
The early bird registration actually expires on August 20 6th. So you definitely want to, take action. And they're doing a virtual event, in September on this on September 14 to 15th. So check that out as well, but, Momentum does a great job. You would definitely wanna check these guys out. So, Paul, you had come up with this idea of talking about split level meetings, which is a term that I think a lot of people probably aren't familiar with, but should be. So let's just start with the basics.
Can you describe or tell everybody what that term split level meetings actually means? Sure. And, you know, different companies call it different things. Split level, skip level, you know, 1 on ones with executives, you know, any number of things. But the premise is just the same.
And in fact, as we were talking, you know, if if your company doesn't do skip level meetings, I think some of the content we're gonna speak of here also just applies to, you know, what do you do when when you're at a conference and you end up on the, in the elevator with your CEO, your vice president, and and and you've gotta come up with some, you know, some some some brilliant and interesting stuff really quickly. Right? So I think it it applies to a broad range of audience.
But, you know, by and large, what a skip level is basically is, you're you're having one on ones. Usually, they're one on ones, with someone that is one level above your manager. So in my case, I'm a national director. I have regional directors, and then I have MSLs. This would be me speaking to my MSL team directly, which, by the way, Tom, is one of my favorite parts of my job and the best parts of my day. But that's in essence what a what a skip level is.
It's basically skipping that one level in the hierarchy of the org chart and and getting information, back and forth, from from, you know, 2 level manager to, in this case, to the MSL. Yeah. It it's just so just to show you how little I know about this. I said split level and it's skip level. So we're gonna start start with that. Anyway so alright. So how so you who initiates this? So I understand the concept, and I can even start to really start to think about the benefits.
But how does this get initiated? Yeah. That's a great question. And I think you know, honestly, thinking about this, I always appreciate initiative. Right? So I think generally speaking, this is this is an exercise that is initiated by the second level manager, right, to say, you know what? I wanna get to know my team. You know, as an example, me just joining, Beijing, I needed to get to know my team, and so skip levels and get to know you meetings are good.
One one one rule is, you know, we shouldn't just do these one and done. They should be done on a regular cadence at least 2 or 3 times a year. Okay? We'll come back to that later in the podcast. So that's generally speaking, but I think anyone for MSLs that wanna request something like this, now I think your your skip level manager would be extremely happy to, to take a call like that. We'll talk about transparency and looping in your manager on what's happening.
But I think it it's bidirectional. It can be it can be initiated by either party. Mhmm. What would you say now I would imagine that, you had already mentioned that it's a great way to get to know your team. But are there specific goals that you already have in mind prior to going into these meetings? You had mentioned having them regularly. So this is obviously, something that you incorporate into your strategy. So talk to me about the goals that you have set out for these.
Yeah. I great question. I think, you know, honestly, the the first thing is just to build some relationships. You know, hybrid working and COVID going back to our podcast of a couple years ago really changed the frequency with which we get to see each other. So I I look at these skip levels as even more important now that we're not either in the office or, you know, even with your sponsor having live meetings and live congresses and going back to that meeting in Philadelphia. I hope people go.
It's just such a great way to see people, but we've been robbed of that the last couple of years. It's it's just that I think that much important to have some connection points. So building relationships, you know, you gain insight into the team dynamics too, like what's working and what's not working and the culture of the team. You you you know, you also can test a bit how is communication going.
Like, if you're talking about, you know, something that's focused for your team and they're like, well, I didn't even know we were supposed to be doing that. Well, that tells you something. Yeah. We can debate what it tells you depending upon any number of factors, but you've learned something about how information the efficiency with which it's flowing back and forth, how are people remembering things. And then, you know, I think too it's living the values of your organization.
I mean, we really should be listening to everybody. K? You go back to your, your core values. You know, one one of mine is wisdom and empathy. And and you gain both of these from skip level meetings. You get a lot wiser, and, you know, you wanna hear people's point of view. And whether they are introverts or extroverts, I think everybody at some level appreciates their voice being heard.
And I think it's it's it's certainly better than a lot of the engagement surveys or poll surveys that companies do that ask very confusing questions sometimes and kind of artificial, environment with which you're answering that. These these are good for all that. And I think really honestly, listen and learn. I mean, that's I think at the base level, that's really what you're what you're getting out of this.
Yeah. I think you can gain so much understanding of, you know, what's working, what's going well. Get an understanding, like you said, is, you know, what's the culture looking like and are people fulfilled in their role? Are they is everyone aligned with core values? I mean, I'll tell you one of the thing one of the reasons I did that podcast about core values is I just I think it gets swept under the rug a bit. I think it's it becomes a slogan on the conference room wall. Right?
It becomes it's like a bumper sticker. But in reality, if as an as individuals and as organizations, if we stick to our core values and make sure that everybody's aligned with core values, then it preserves the culture. It creates a culture. Yep. You got it. You got it. And even just listening to your podcast, I I I know what your values are. You know? Your faith and your family and your fitness. You know, your 3 your your your 3 north stars. That that's a great exercise.
Yeah. I hadn't thought about it until I listened to your podcast, but, you know, what what a great way to have the leader discuss their core values and maybe as an assignment before the skip level to have the MSL do the same thing so you can talk about that. And then where those align or misalign to your point, you know, you don't wanna fake your core values. That's that's that's horrible. There's something there that's missing. Let's talk about that.
And and just to get to know people in general. Right? I mean, I I don't wanna over index on the values because there's a lot of day to day stuff too. But, yeah, there's all kinds of ways you can do this, I think, rightly and wrongly. Yeah. Let's go back to the MSL for a second. So, you know, you had talked about having this as a regular practice. You set up these meetings and you have 1 on ones with MSLs.
Obviously, their managers, so the middle manager is fully aware of, you know, this practice. But let's just say the MSL wants to meet with you. And for whatever reason it might be, how do they how do they initiate that? Do they go to their manager first and request that they do that, or do they come right to you? What's your suggestion? Yeah. You know, I think I think it depends upon the nature of the the meeting. Right?
Okay. So so in some cases, I think in extreme cases, know, the MSL may wanna talk to you about something that the manager's doing, that they just wanna bounce off you. And and I would take that meeting, and listen and learn and then filter out what what I know to be true to know what I what I think to be true, but it's an additional, point.
And I think this is, within a skip level, it's always important for the MSL and for the for for the leader to discuss, you know, what what's confidential about this conversation if there is such a thing. You know, if we're if there's something that you're telling me in confidence, you have to establish that up front.
I, you know, I do think anything that I hear from an MSL, I would hope that they, a, have made their manager aware, unless it's, you know, as I said, something sensitive about that relationship or management style. And, b, if the if the manager were on the room in the room, they they wouldn't be surprised by what they're hearing because that's their manager. Right? I mean and I don't wanna and we'll talk about pitfalls of these meetings.
The last thing I wanna do is bypass the the the the regional director or the the first line manager because that's a tough job, Tom. You manage people too. I mean, the last thing you need is second guessing, Monday morning quarterback. We'll talk more about those pitfalls in a minute. So I think it depends upon the nature of the the meeting and the companies are different. You know? I tell my MSLs to and field medical directors, hey. Text me during the day.
If you've got something that's good or bad happening to you, I'd love to know about it. And and that's that's the open culture that I wanna create. Other companies can be a little bit more hierarchical. You have to you have to know that culture, before you, you know, you enter into some of these types of meetings. Yeah. Well, before we get to the pitfalls, because, obviously, that's something I think we really need to talk about.
But, what other I know that there's a lot of benefits that come from this. I'm sure there's probably a lot of leaders that may not have been using these skip level meetings as regularly as they should. What's your advice to some of those leaders, and what would you say are the benefits that you've gotten out of it? Yeah. I think I think for me, it's just number 1 is the it's it's the relationship component that you build.
I mean, people really do wanna know that people at at higher levels of the organization know them, care about them, have their best interest in mind. That's, you know, that that that's base base level to the to the conversation.
I think diversifying your perspective too is good because it's very easy to sit in a headquarters or a, you know, home office, wherever you are, but not in the field, not on every team call, not not out there, you know, pounding the pavement, and and get kind of you you can assume it. You know, I got told you. I've been doing this since 88. There's a lot of things that I knew to be true 10, 15, 20, or more years ago they aren't so anymore. They're just not. And it's a it's a whole new ballgame.
So it keeps me current. It keeps me fresh on what the pain points are because my biggest job as a manager is to support my team, remove barriers, and listen. Right? So I do that much better when I'm talking to the team. And so diversifying that perspective and gathering the feedback, you know, all of that is good. We talked a little bit about, you know, communication efficiency, what's working, what's not working. And these are all just direct questions you can ask. Like, how am I doing?
And, you know, we have too many meetings, not enough meetings. Is there something else that you we we should be doing? And then you can also just do some diagnosis of, strengths of the team and weaknesses of the team, are there training, issues that come up, hard skills, soft skills, all of that. So I think I think those are really, really important things to, to keep in mind when you're doing this, and that's that's what I get out of it. Yeah. No. That's good stuff. And and I like the the idea.
This wasn't my question, but it I was gonna get to it. But I like the idea of asking those open ended questions. Right? So do you go into this and you're like, hey. Let's talk. What's top of mind for you? Or do you have very targeted questions? You know, I think I think depending upon where you are in the year, it can be either one. Like, you know, for for get to know you stuff where I'm at with with with my new company, lots of open ended questions. Right?
Like, how we get what's the closer year? What why did you join the company? You know? What tell me a little bit about your background. Those kind of questions. I think I think ideally, it's a blending of the open and, hey. Let me ask you about this. You know? How how how did we do, and how how clear are our messages and our scientific narrative and our insights? Is it making sense? What what what keeps you up at night as an MSL?
You know, everybody, you know, wants to complain about their CRM and administrative work. And in some cases, there are things we can do to make that streamline and easier. So it's a blending of the 2, I think, Tom. But, you know, just like it's sort of like the life cycle of the relationship. It's gonna ebb and flow a bit. And then there may be different times within the company where the company's, big picture, going through different, struggles or strengths.
And it's important to touch base on some of those things too if you have opportunity to get get that view from the from the street. Yeah. Yeah. Getting back to the the MSL side of it. So is there anything that the MSL can do to prepare for these meetings, would you say? Yeah. For sure. You know, ideally, you should know a little bit about the person you're meeting with.
And that sounds so basic, and it should be such a a normal thing for the MSL to do because that's what they do on their external interactions. Right? I mean, you would expect them before they go visit a physician, or or health care provider that they do their homework. They look at their publications. They look at where they train. They look at their research interest. The same thing applies.
In fact, I think your rule of thumb, Tom, would be, you know, MSL should really look at some of their internal stakeholders much like they do their external KOLs. Like, know know them. Spend some time on LinkedIn. Get just those basic rules of engagement apply internally as much as externally. That that'll help a a bunch. So, yeah, definitely prepare. And and, again, it can be really formal or informal.
Some some some MSLs even send me a list of questions beforehand or an agenda beforehand, and that's cool. Some people like that. I think you and I kinda like to know what we're in for too so we can prepare on the other end. Different yeah. Just different different strokes for different folks as they say. Yeah. And what about advice? Is there any advice you could give to MSLs as they go into this? Preparation's one thing, but the other thing is, are there are there pitfalls for the MSL?
Is it possible that they could they could kinda mess this up? Is it possible they can overshare? Can they be too direct? Can they be too like, I I think there's people out there that are like, you know, they wanna have the answers to the test here. You know? Yep. Yep. You got it. Well, certainly, this could be, a really big feather in your cap as an MSL or, you know, like your interaction with the KOL. The the 4 can drop out at any moment, right, depending upon any number of things.
So I would say, you know, couple of things come to mind, like, don't wing it. I mean, don't just think this is a conversation. You know, it is, but it isn't. But, you know, like like anytime you're getting to know someone, you're you know, there's opinions being formed. There's information that's being, gathered. One of the things too that I like to tell people is, don't forget to say what's working well. That that's important too. We always and and I'm guilty of this too, Tom.
You know, you kinda focus on what's not working. But if there's something that's going well, people wanna hear that. I think the other thing, and this is probably the biggest nugget from, from this side of the conversation, which is if you're gonna bring up an issue, have, you know, have be ready for me to ask you about proposed solutions. Alright. Hey, Tom. You know, you're bringing this up. You've thought about this for longer than I have.
Give me some idea what you think, a possible solution to this issue might be because you're experiencing it firsthand. I think that's the, you know, that second that second part of it. People are really good at raising things. Sometimes they forget or, you know, and particularly when you're talking to senior executives, they're they go into solution mode pretty quickly, and they're gonna wanna know what your thoughts are on this.
So have thought about that a little bit if you're gonna bring something up. Yeah. And that's brilliant.
And I think a lot of people go in, and they they get caught up in the emotion of of this moment, and and need to realize that in the same way that you have to exercise self awareness and control your emotions when you're when you're speaking to a k o l, you have to do that internally as well and be careful, but also be prepared and be someone that's gonna actually, provide support internally and be able to whatever it is again, we're using we're
talking hypotheticals here, but you need to be prepared. You need to add value to that conversation the same way you would add value to an external conversation. Exactly right. You're you're you're you're you're exactly right, Tom. And, you know, I I do think that, you know, it's just human nature. People are looking at you thinking, wow. Is this person ready for the next level in their career? Are they are they do I see them 2 levels above their current position?
I mean, all of these things are what people are sort of, wow. Man, this Tom guy is pretty sharp. Or, man, you know, he's really kind of stuck in a silo. I think, Big Tom needs to ruminate a little bit in the role a little bit longer and learn you know, gain some experience. That's all that's that's going through people's mind too as to, how they perceive you. So, you know, the word of advice there is think about how you wanna be perceived, and and then act accordingly. Right?
It's almost like an interview. It is an interview. It's basically an ongoing interview because every interaction that you have with leaders within your organization is a chance for you to step up and to impress, make an impression, show your value, show your worth. You can have the leader could could leave that meeting and say, wow, I'm blown away by this person. Every time I speak to them, it gets better and better or not.
Or maybe they say, you know, I had an opportunity this person had an opportunity to spend an hour with me, and I'm leaving kind of thinking that, yeah, not so much. Do you agree with that? I I I really do. It really is. It's like, yeah, you can look at it as interviewing for the job that you already have or interviewing 6 months, 6 weeks, a year before the next job that you want. I mean, it's it it it really is.
It's, it's just a way to leave an impression, and and and think about how you wanna be perceived. I think that's a really brilliant way you you thought at the time. Yeah. Yeah. There's probably a lot of MSOs out there. They're all nervous right now. They're like, oh, wait. I never thought of it that way. Maybe, you know, you're probably right. Yeah. So let's talk about the pitfalls. Obviously, there's some real good, positives that could come of this.
We talked about goals and and some of the benefits of doing this. So what can be the negatives? What could be some of the pitfalls that might come of these? Yeah. I think, you know, there's there's there there are pitfalls. These are these are sensitive things for a lot of people. You like you say, the MSL is maybe sweating it a little bit.
You know, the manager the second level manager might be sweating it a little bit, but, you know, the middle manager too, you know, like the the regional director in this case, you know, they it's kind of a stressful time for them too. So I think, you know, one of the pitfalls is, you know, be open and be transparent with everybody that you're doing it. Have a have a, you know, have a conversation with the, you know, the manager because you are you're crossing some lines of communication. Right?
You need to do that. And you do as I mentioned before, set the ground rules. Like, soon as you meet with someone, particularly if you make them hopefully, you make them feel comfortable and part of a team, you don't wanna be you're skipping out the the regional director on emails and lines of communication. That's just bad form. Nobody wants that.
And so you you have to talk about how you wanna communicate and and and and sort of reestablish those those lines however you want them to be, at the onset with the with with everybody. Everybody should know this. Right? So, hopefully, the the middle manager is not threatened. I think there there's ways of softening that particularly with transparency. But, you know, it's, it's just human nature. Right? We're wondering what's going on behind closed doors. Right?
Yeah. And then, you know, I think another pitfall is a manager going into this kind of a conversation, and not being aware of performance issues or thorny issues or, you know, even a little bit slight of the future and the past and the present of that MSL. You you got you know, I gotta do my homework if I'm doing these too. Right? I gotta know what companies these, the MSL has worked for and how their performance has been.
So in a lot of cases, that's a conversation with the regional director beforehand, particularly if you see people at the high end of the spectrum or even low performers. Like, you know, get get the goods because you're those are the ones that are gonna be potentially, the most either beneficial or the most worrisome, people on that end of the performance spectrum. So, yeah, you gotta know that. You you gotta know you gotta you gotta do your homework.
And I said before, like, another pitfall is don't do these 1 and done. You know, if you can do them you know, my previous job, I had a I had 80 MSLs. I had a big, big team. I could have done just skip level meetings for, you know, Monday through Friday. It fills up your schedule. I I look for some other ways to engage that team, but I did skip levels as well a lot. In fact, more probably more than than, that I that I even remember because I like it. Right?
You kinda Yeah. You kinda towards doing things that you like anyway. But, you know, it it it's just like an MSL meeting with a with a key opinion leader. If they're not meeting with them 2 or 3 times a year, it's really more of a transactional thing and not a not a relationship builder. So I would say minimum, twice a year, do these things. Don't don't want and done. And and so those are the formal ones that you're putting on Outlook.
And then, of course, you know, like I saw you at at the American Society of Clinical Oncology, when when you see people at congresses, you have informal check ins, like, you know, on the bus and in the elevator and over coffee and after the precon and all of those things. There's lots of opportunities. Yeah. Well and, you know, every chance you get you get a lot of chances to continue to make an impression even if it's informal. You know, it's it's in this career. You're constantly being judged.
So take advantage of every opportunity that you get. Getting back to the meetings. And again, there's a lot of leaders that are listening to this. There's a lot of people that might want to know a little bit more about logistics. So just a couple of other questions. So can you you mentioned having a big team. Have you ever done this in groups instead of individual one on one meetings? Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't I I did. I and I'll tell you.
I I had a MSL council, which was one member of each of the 8 teams that, I had. And they were you know, think of them like a, like a senator. Like, they now you were they they had a constituency, which is their team. So what led to that and then this is something if you do have a big team, you can do, I think, pretty effectively, is, you know, like, we would do we we had we had surveys. And I would just drill down with my team on alright. What what do we really we have low scores here.
Let's let's dig into those and really help me understand why those scores are low. And they would ask their team for additional color on some of those questions and bring that to the meeting. This is back when we were doing I think the last time I did it, we had couple virtual meetings a year and then a couple live meetings where we get together. And and, you know, we read some books on team health, and and I'm doing that at Beijing, as we speak, actually.
Friday's the due date for nominations for the for the council for my field medical team. Those are good ways. If you can't do skip levels with everybody, at least let people know that they've got that opportunity and they're speaking through now, not just their manager, but you're getting and this is a key point, Tom, you need as a leader. You need unfiltered information to get into your ears.
And if you're only relying on your direct line managers to do that, you can you know, they're they're they're really good, and more often than not, what you're hearing is exactly what you need to hear. But, again, that perspective from the MSL is like gold to me. I mean, you really wanna hear that unfiltered, not with some spin or a little bit a little bit of bias that's put on it by the first line manager, you get it right from the source.
And there has to be a ground rule upfront is, you know, this is this is what we're doing. We're not doing this to complain about everything, and we're not doing here to say everything is peachy. You you really have to say we need to have the honest conversation. Let's let let's take back to your team what they wanna know and tell me, please, the things that I'm asking for unfiltered straight from the heart. Yeah. What's your feeling?
So when you have these and, again, helping the leaders that are listening, you have these meetings. And I know from my own situation when I have these meetings internally, sometimes they turn into coaching sessions. Do you find that that's the case? And do you try to avoid that and just make it more informational? Or do you actually use it as an opportunity to help coach? Yeah. I think there's an opportunity for for for both. I'll give you an example.
I have I have a skip level meeting yesterday, and it was with a very seasoned field medical, employee. And we're just you know, I I asked an open ended question about, hey. Where where do you see yourself? I mean, is you know, you're you're really good at what you do. Is you wanna continue on this path, or or what do you wanna do? So there's your open ended question. There's tell me a little bit about how you see your future.
And he had, you know, maybe I would like to be a leader of a team at some point in time. Alright. So there's that's an open ended. I'm not coaching yet. Right? Here's what I did take the opportunity to do. I said, one of my interview questions is always tell me what you've done to prepare for this interview. Right? So when I asked this first, I'm like, what are you doing on your individual development plan to take steps towards becoming a regional director if that's what you wanna do?
Because that's what I'm gonna ask you in the interview. And if if you don't have something specific to say, then it looks like you just threw your hat in the ring after being in the on the team for 10 years because someone's gotta do it. And, you know, that's cool. But, boy, when someone says, I took this course, I I I I prepared through HR with this. I was in a field leadership opportunity, did a you know, any number of things that one can do to prepare.
Now now you're separating yourself from the herd. So now you get it. Like, now I'm coaching to say, next time we talk, I wanna hear about what you're doing if if if this is an interest of yours to do that. And I will say that was a really good moment, a special moment because you see, hey, Paul. That's really, really helpful. Thank you for that.
So there's an there's an example where it's not like hardcore coaching on presentation skills or something like that, but just really just wisdom and advice from someone that's gonna be looking at you as a prospect a perspective, direct report maybe in a couple years or, you know, like, 6 weeks, 6 months. You just never know. There's a coaching op. I took the the opportunity to do it. Yeah. Well, you're an amazing leader. It just comes naturally for you. Yeah. You're too kind. I'm being serious.
And and to that point, you have experience doing these, and you've been successful doing these. So last question, and I want to hear from both sides as it relates to the MSL and as it relates to the leader. What stands out in your mind as something that is has been really impressive to you? So you have these split level meetings you meet with with MSLs. What would you say or what advice would you give to those MSLs to say, hey.
I'm gonna just give you just my personal opinion from doing all these. Here's what resonates with me the most. What would it be? Yeah. I think it's I think it's 2 fold. For the MSL, you know, do they know what they're supposed to know? You know, do we do they know what their objectives are? Do they know? And these aren't data. Like, I don't I've had MSLs present to me before, but I don't do those in skip levels.
I mean, that may be a follow-up from the skip level if I get a get get an idea that that might be a step that needs to be taken or I have the r RM do it or the RD do it. Right? But I really do wanna see and it's it's back to your your brilliant point about the interview. Like, when I interview people, you know, particularly with, like, the behavioral interview stuff, like, we all know what question. Tell me about a time. Right? You know, everybody knows the questions that you're gonna be asked.
What really wins me over in the interview and in the skip level is the quality of the question that the MSL is asking me. Like, wow. That's somebody that knows, that understands. It's it's sort of incorporates a little bit about the company, about the team, about where we're going. And then the second piece to that, Tom, is, yeah, who's bringing some solutions to the table as I mentioned before? I like, it's great to have an observation, but your next level, you know, is, hey.
You've thought about it. What's your what's your proposed solution to it? Those are the 2 things that really like you say, when you walk away from this, it's it's thumbs up instead of thumb sideways or thumbs down on that interaction. I love it. I love it. And then last question. So when you have so there's leaders that are gonna start doing these meetings. What I mean, last piece of advice that you have for them to say, hey. Go into these meetings and do this. This is which one piece of advice.
Don't forget this. I think 2 things. 1 is I mentioned it earlier, like, listen, really. The you know, active listening. Don't be, you know, doing your flight to New York at the same time you're you're doing a skip level. Really, really dig you know, lean in and and and make this what it should be, which is that that person and your opportunity. Because I'm gonna tell you, I get probably as much or more out of these things than the MSL does, and I approach it like that.
Like, this is an opportunity for me. And, of course, all those things I said about the MSL making an impression, I wanna do the same thing as a leader. Like, hey. You're in good hands. Right? The captain of the ship. We we we got this together, but I need you. Right? So you needed those things. I think one other thing that I would advise people is be pretty consistent because MSLs talk. Right?
I mean, if I'm talking to you, Tom, about your career development and we're we're talking for 30 minutes and 25 of it is about this, and I'm not giving someone else 2 days later that same sort of consistent, tell me about your development. Alright. Now Tom's wondering why Paul brought this up to to Sally, but not to Tom. Right? So they don't have to be cookie cutter, but be consistent in your approach and and really get into those things that you really want answers to.
So and that that means preparing. Right? It saves time. Yeah. Yeah. Paul, you're the man. This was awesome. I just love having you on. Love talking to you. I always learn incredible amounts of information, and I'm sure that everybody appreciates everything that you do for this for this industry. And, and you're awesome, man. I can't believe it's been this long. We have to definitely do this again sooner and not wait so long. Yeah. You got it. That's, that's good. It's always good to see you.
And, hey, right back at you. You keep up the the great service work that you're doing for the MSL profession. I I I'm a big fan of yours, Tom, and I do listen to those podcasts, man. I do, and I learn a lot. So thanks to all the leaders and MSLs that are, you know, with you. And and, you know, for everybody that's out there, if you've got an idea, don't be afraid to raise it to Tom. You know? Yeah, man. That's the truth.
And you listen and, you know, I think the 2 times I raised my hand is, say, I got something hot. Let's do it. Man, like, a week later, we're on the podcast. It was it was a week ago. Literally, like, a week ago. And, and I do listen. And I I'll tell you there I I appreciate people reaching out to me with ideas, whether you wanna come on or whether you just have an idea. Just let me know what it is because we need to as a community, we need to stick together and share best practices, share ideas.
And if there's stuff out there that you're curious about, just let me know what it is, and I'll find somebody like Paul that can come out and and share, their wisdom. And if you like this, guys, share it. Don't forget to check out Momentum Events. That conference coming up on there's 2 of them. 1 is virtual in September on 14th 15th, and then the other one or 13th 14th. Then the other one is live in Philly on 14th 15th. So check those out. Use the code Tom 20 to get your discount.
Paul, hope all is gonna go well for you for the rest of the year. I wish you the best, and, we'll talk soon. Thank you, Tom. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, man. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.