Never Split the Difference

Hey guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guests today are Linda Traylor. She's VP and head of medical excellence at acceleration point and Josh Yoder. He's a senior medical science liaison at Aurinia Pharmaceuticals. And we do a book review of Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, which is collectively our 3, all of us share. We it's our favorite book and we couldn't wait to do a podcast about it. I love this episode.

It's a little bit long, but I love it, and I think it's great for anyone, not just medical science liaisons, but anyone in any walk of life. I hope you guys love this. I hope you share it. And don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn for regular announcements and to join us on MSL Talk Live, which is once a month. But thank you guys as always for all of your support of the show. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical.

Okay, guys. Welcome to this very special episode where I have 2 of my favorites. Not when I say favorites, I'm not talking about just favorite podcast guests, but 2 of my favorite people on the entire planet. So I have Linda Traylor and Josh Yoder with me. Guys, welcome back to the podcast. How are you both doing? So excited to be here. Yeah. Absolutely. Couldn't couldn't agree more to my very favorite humans on the planet. This is gonna be a blast. Ditto. Ditto.

I mean, this is we're starting out as a love fest, but that's what it is. That's what it is, man. And it's genuine. It's real. I love you guys. And we have been talking about doing this. It's it's probably over a year. It is. This has taken a long time to come to life for a lot of different reasons we don't need to get into, but we're going to talk about our favorite book.

The 3 of us share something in common where our favorite book is never split the difference by Chris Voss, or at least one of our favorite books. So I, I am gonna let Linda introduce herself first. And then in typical fashion, as we start these podcasts, let Josh introduce himself, and then we're gonna jump into this. So, Linda, why don't you start? Absolutely. So my name is Linda Traylor.

I am head of medical excellence at Acceleration Point, and that is, a company that many people know about from a, insight strategy, medical strategy, consulting, SaaS product. We have a a product. However, I've been in industry for 25 years and have done many medical affairs roles at many, like, diagnostics, devices, big pharma, small pharma.

And I just MSL role to this day is still one of my favorite roles and, would always I always feel like the, you know, the worst case scenario for me at this point in my career is to to go back and be an MSL. And if that's the worst case scenario you're in, I mean, life is pretty good. Right? You're playing with house money. So, yeah, I I love it, and I'm glad to be here. This is one this book is, it it I I love this book. I'm I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Yeah. Josh. Yeah. I couldn't agree more, and I can continue the the love fest on how I even got here and what I'm doing now. So I'm a I'm a senior MSL right now. Josh Yoder, senior MSL with, Aurinia Pharmaceuticals. And like Linda, I've been in this world for a while. Love it.

My background's in research, switched over about a decade ago at this point, was in MSL at a number of companies, managed a team at my last place, and really what I was looking for was a great culture and great people to work with. And, again, we were talking a little bit earlier. Another common friend of ours, Keely Dahl, another one of my favorite people. She worked at this company, brought me over here. A connection of Linda's there is is my my direct supervisor now.

So I think just working with great people is fine. That's why I wanted to be on here. It was actually I think Linda's probably last podcast on here where you guys mentioned this book. And immediately after I listened to it, I texted both of you and I was like, this is my favorite book. I love it. And immediately, both of you are like, come on. Let's do this book review together. So, yeah, couldn't be more excited to be here.

I think it's super applicable applicable to what we do and I think like you said Linda if being an MSL is your your kind of backup plan I hear so many people say it's the you know the best job ever and I think regardless if we move a little bit more on and you know an advanced role whatever you're still dealing with this world, but doing it directly is super fun, and I think this book's super applicable to to what we do day to day. Rock stars, guys.

These 2 were absolute rock stars and leaders in medical affairs. So this is gonna be a great conversation. Let me start by saying that so Chris Voss is a an a retired ex, FBI negotiator. And when I first heard about this book, someone's like, oh, you gotta read Never Split the Difference. It's the best business book and you know? And at first, I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Me you know?

I I thought it was a book about negotiation, which we you know, I guess in business, you definitely need, but it's really a book about life. It's a book about people. It's a book about communicating and connecting with people more. It's about relation. It's a relationship book more than it really is a book about negotiation. So I wanna set the tone because if anybody's thinking, oh, I don't know if I really want to invest in a book about negotiation, that's not really what it is.

And the reason that, we brought this to this venue is because it's a great book for MSLs and medical affairs leaders. So, Linda, I'm gonna start with you. Why would you say, in your opinion, you think this would be a good book for MSLs and for MSL leaders? Absolutely. Well, I mean, the MSL is in the business of having practice changing conversations, and they, constantly have to hone and develop and advance their communication skills. And I I agree with you.

What Chris said, even in his book about negotiation, it being sort of framework around negotiating in business, the negotiation impacts every part of our life. So I agree with you that, really, it's kind of a life skill, book. And when I first the first time I ever looked at this book, I listened to it on Audible. I've since got the, copy of it, and I've read it a handful of times as well.

But the the skill sets that are applicable to any negotiation, no matter where you are, all stakeholders, are communication skills that MSLs, like, need to master. It's something that I've always been a continuous learner doing in my career is, learning how to communicate better because I'm not naturally good at it. I'm, like, seriously not a very good communicator. And sometimes I come off, in certain ways never I don't intend to.

So picking up skills that help me framework, like, a conversation, have the most effective conversation is something I've always been drawn to. And to me, by far, this book is one of the best I've ever, read when it comes to in one book capturing a lot of the different tools and techniques that are easy to apply every day. Easy to apply. And I'm all about easy. And we're gonna talk about those techniques.

We we're gonna actually dissect those techniques as they relate to MSLs and medical affairs folks. So, Josh, why do you why do you think this is such a great book for MSLs? Yeah. I love that you said it's about interacting with people and and really about being human because I literally I've same as Linda. I've listened to it a handful of times. I I rarely read books anymore. Right? When I'm traveling, I listen to books. This is the first book ever. Usually, I do I consume it once. Right?

And move on to something else. I want new information. This is the first book ever. As soon as I finish it, I'm like, I'm starting this over immediately because there was so much in it, and I don't wanna miss anything. It was just it it resonated that much with me. And I think I'm really into kind of psychology, social psychology, how to interact with people. By no means an expert, I wanna get better at it. Right? I think this nails all of that. This is the first time I ever sat down.

I probably took 10 pages of notes going through the book this time preparing for this. Right? My top notes says this this book is really about interacting with humans because that's what it is. Right? It's how we develop relationships, how we communicate with people like Linda said. And I think I love sitting down and interacting with people, but in this, it's like, how can I do that better? And how can I get more out of, you know, what the other person's saying?

Again, especially in in this world, everybody always says, you know, insights are the, you know, currency of medical affairs. This is gonna lead you to insights, these sort of things. So I think it's super applicable in that way. I think it really gets to people wanting wanting to be understood, connecting with people, how you basically make that a better connection, how you make your communication better. I have a number of specific things, but I'll wait until we dig into the tactics on that.

But I think that's the real thing is that you're really trying to form a better relationship with people. Right? This this role, everybody's into the science and medicine. Right? This is a relationship development and communication role, and I think this book is only gonna help you develop those aspects of it. I can find a million people you know when I put a team together that can go out and talk science and medicine but can you develop that relationship? Can you effectively communicate?

Can you get information back? Those are the things that are harder to develop I think and this is again maybe a little bit of a cheat code and a step by step guide in some ways of of how to do that well. Yeah. No doubt. So, guys, I'm gonna I'm gonna chime in here, and I'm gonna give you guys a direct quote from Chris Voss in the book because this, I really think is, it kind of sums up why I think this book and why we collectively think this book is, is so great for MSLs.

And he says, make your soul focus on the other person and what they have to say. The goal is to identify what your counterparts actually need and make them safe enough to talk about what they want. It begins with listening, making it about the other person, validating their emotions, and creating enough trust to have a real conversation.

So as we look at the complexity of KOL engagement and access and relationship building, I mean, that really hits home and it's a really great precursor to what we're gonna talk about, as we dissect the book. So as I said, we're gonna pick apart some of the concepts that Chris Voss talks about in the book, and we're gonna start with what he calls tactical empathy. And tactical empathy is, as he says, when you become aware of the other person's perspective and emotions.

So basically, the goal of tactical empathy is human connection. He says that the it's important to let others' needs and emotions guide your interactions. So, Linda, I want you to talk about how you think tactical empathy is so important for the MSL community.

Absolutely. So medical clients liaisons, MSLs, whatever you call them at your the field medical team, when they're engaging external experts, KOLs, HCPs, they usually go in with an agenda, and, they usually have a goal for the meeting that they want to accomplish. And I have traveled with so many MSLs and been an MSL for so many years. I I know how easy it is to focus on what you need to convey.

But we but then we also talk about the the flip side of that being we have to develop these relationships. So we've got a job to communicate information, educate, but yet we also have to develop these KOL relationships. And that key ingredient in between those two things is this understanding all that you can about their perspective. And, you know, a lot there a lot of people use, like, trying to get to know them on a personal level, and that's okay. It's good. I think it's always good.

It's not my go to because I'm an introvert, and I'm not one to really make small talk around, you know, people's interest in sports or their kids' pictures and things like that. But that's it's a if that's your thing, man, you gotta use what your thing is. But these skills, this tactical empathy means truly understanding.

Like, if you're in the middle of having some sort of safety and efficacy conversation with an HCP and you're missing the the fact that they are anti on edge, look looking at the door, they're they're not paying attention, they're not hearing, then that is is complete wasted time. So, I mean, 0. There's no value there that in that conversation. You're walking away having failed that meeting.

And if you don't, like, understand that, I think that's part of the tactical empathy, in my opinion, is you've got you can't just go in with a message. You've gotta understand they're ready to receive that message, and that means getting in their head and understanding. To me, that's what tactical empathy is, is walking away with knowing exactly their perspective, hearing them, making sure they felt heard, And that is all done by active listening. Brilliant. A lot of different skills.

Active listening is one of the key ingredients. Yeah. And and and he talks a lot about active listening in the book as well in the same section as because active listening is a part of tactical empathy. So before we get to that, Josh, thoughts on tactical empathy? Yeah. No. I I I love that idea, and I think that's it's something not all these concepts are gonna be completely foreign. Right? I think this this book takes them to another level. We all hear about active listening. Right?

Everybody knows that's important as an MSL, but this kind of takes it to the other level. Why do you do it and how do you do it? Right? I think that's the one real good thing about this book is it really digs into how you the concepts I think everybody would agree with. Right? On face value, they make a lot of how do you actually do it? And then he kind of backs it up and really the most difficult situations in the world to do it. Right?

So I think it it that lends some credence to it, but I I love your point, Linda, about going in and, you know, this isn't the way I do it. That's not the way I prefer to interact with people. I'm an introvert. Right? I'm not. You are. But it's really about what are they? Don't assume they're like you. Right? Every person's different. You wanna understand what they're about, and it might be different every day. Like you said, they're distracted today. Right? So what are we getting into here?

One of my favorite things to do is walk is walk into a meeting and be like, how's it going today? What's going on for you? How can I help you? We're there to provide value. Right? That's gonna build the relationship and get you back in the door is by providing value. So if there's no value to them in hearing your message today because they're distracted, some days you walk in and you're a therapist for a little bit. Right?

And hear them out and hear what their problems are and really getting behind it, I think, is is the real thing. What's the emotion behind that? It's the same thing. I could ask them a direct question where I want feedback and I'm trying to bring an insight back. The answer itself is not that important. What's the reason behind the answer? And I think this is the same thing as far as the, you know, what are the feelings behind that? What are your emotions behind that?

And understanding it a little bit, we'll get into more details of of getting specific with that. But how do you get beyond that, right, and have the conversation either you wanna have or what's most most useful for them? So I think those sort of things really dig into how do we how does something, you know, become useful, but it also does it. It builds that rapport.

And another term that I didn't know before this that he talked about a little bit was neuroresonance and really get in in sync with that person. I think you have such a better two way communication when you can kinda get into that. Even if it's not your mindset, you kinda mold to that and learn to interact in that way and just have a way more productive and quite honestly fun conversation, I think. Oh, brilliant.

Yeah. Totally. And and, I'm glad you brought up that word, neuroresonance be resonance because in the book and guys, obviously, the the idea here is we're we're recommending that you read the book or listen to it. I listened to it too. I think we all 3 of us wound up listening to it. I did the same thing that Josh did. I actually wound up listening to it a couple of times because it was so good.

But you hear these concepts and they're explained and detailed, and then you get tips on how to implement them. But before we get into some more of the concepts, I want to come back to the active listening piece, because I kind of feel like it's, it's discussed so often with MSLs, MSL training, but I kind of almost feel like it's missed at the same time in that.

I think MSL has fallen to the trap of I have, as you said, Linda, I have goals and strategic strategic objectives and people resist the, they can't resist the urge to just jump right in. So can you talk about how important the active listening piece is? Because without the active listening, you can't even get to the empathy part because you're not even even learning anything. So any advice as it relates to this?

Yeah. By definition, you can't get to the empathy part if you don't know anything about the the person you're in front of. I love, I love what Josh said about the book being a a how to book versus just, stating, like, we listen to so many we go to so many sessions at conferences and listen to so many things, and everybody's talking generically about what you know, active listening is important. Well, yeah, no, you know, stuff. Yeah. You could say it. No shit. You could say it. Alright. No shit.

Right? Yeah. So it's, the how to aspect is is what I think is one of the most beautiful parts of this. And even though his examples are his own experience in FBI negotiation, it makes it interesting. That's kind of the fun part of the book is listening to it. But it's so easy to translate to any other part. And he uses business experience, you know, examples of his clients as well. And I think that translation is is is critical in the how to aspect of it.

So active listening to me is, is a critical component of tactile empathy. But just think through how many times you've had a conversation, and and you're spending time trying what you're gonna say next. Right? The the reason why it's called active, it requires energy to shut down your brain and listen. And so if you're not expending energy hearing what they're saying, then you're probably not doing active listening. You should probably walk out of a meeting with having like, wow.

That that was a workout. I mean, it is because, you know, the brain extends and we all know this, like, consumes so much glucose when it's working, and it should be working in your meeting. So you should feel exhausted when you leave, because you active listening is harder than presentation skills. It's harder than telling your story. And I also love the other comment you made, Josh, about the, the insights coming from the underlying reasons.

At acceleration point, we call this separating the what from the why, but it's the why is where the insights lie. The what is like, that's just the first layer of the conversation, and understanding how they might use a product in clinical practice or the patients that are walking through their door, what they look like compared to the patient profile from your label. And though and really getting into the nitty gritty of why they feel the way they feel.

That that so the baseline is what what do they feel, how they perceive it, and then why is the the key piece. Yep. And tactical empathy, toolset skills around that, the active listening being the primary, is is how you get there. And, again, requires energy. You gotta shut down your brain to hear what they said. And one of his key skills that he talks about in the book to make sure that you're doing that is that summarizing what you heard back in the conversation real time.

So I I have developed I'm I'm still not a master at it. I'm not a master communicator. I have to have books like this to be able to do, the things that we need to do for our jobs. But, that summarizing part had really, I think, amped up my ability to active listening because I'm no. I'm like, really can spend a lot of time in my own head when I'm in a conversation with somebody. And so I really have to work to turn that off.

And, I think summarizing, making myself saying this is what I heard back to them, to who I'm whoever I'm talking to is one, way I get around some of that, making myself listen. And, Linda, we didn't plan this. You literally just introduced the next concept that I'm gonna let Josh talk about in a segment, but that's called labeling. So in the book, Chris Voss talks about the concept of labeling and some other experts like Vanessa Von Edwards, and, Zoe Chance call this naming.

And it's a way to identify what the other person is putting out as far as their emotions and what behaviors you're recognizing from the other person, labeling those emotions for the purpose of the conversation without insulting anyone. So for example, Chris boss talks about in a conversation to summarize when you pick up on someone's emotions and you could do this at home, you know, you get home and you see your spouse is frustrated.

He says, say things like, it seems like you're really frustrated. It sounds like you're frustrated. It sounds like you're more, it sounds like you're very interested in this. Should I elaborate? Like it's identifying, naming, labeling, and kind of asking permission in the conversation. That's what he refers to as labeling. But one of the key factors is to pick up on the emotions and the perspective of the other person before you go into labeling. Josh, any thoughts on that?

No. I think it's a great point and it it does I think these things build on one another. So I think it's a it is a natural transition here. It's exactly what you said. Right? It's recognizing that emotion and and verbalizing it back to them. Right? To to show that you're one active listening that you understand how they're feel feeling. You're building that rapport with them. Right? I think a really important part is what you just said. Frame it like it looks like this. It seems like this.

It sounds like you're not using I. I think you're doing this, whatever. It's it's very much be very objective. Don't make it personal. It's getting personal. You're labeling an emotion, but, it's not about you. Right? It's about the other person. It's about being kind of objective about the situation. I think his his whole overall take on this book is that conflict negotiation, any of these sort of things, it's not the enemy isn't the other person. The enemy's the issue itself. Right?

It's the situation you're in. The other person's your partner. So you're not trying to, like, make anything confrontational here. Right? You're trying to label things, clarify it in both your minds. I think another interesting thing there you said, Linda, with the that idea of getting behind things of why things are a certain way. Right? Whether it's the emotion or whether whatever their decision making is that that gives you a piece of feedback and an answer. You wanna be the why behind it.

Right? We get in these repetitive conversations as an MSL in some ways that I go talk to 10 doctors this week, and they all say essentially the same thing on the surface. They might be saying it for 10 different reasons though. Right? And that's where the value is is what's behind that reason. And I think this sort of labeling can get behind that. Right? Whether it's, again, decision making or whether it's an emotion behind something, I think that's an important thing.

And another thing we've been talking about the how to part, he specifically says in the book, labeling is a tactic. It's not a strategy. Labeling it's not trying to that's how you're gonna, you know, negotiate something or that's how you're gonna figure something out. It's a very specific tactic that leads to things like the tactical empathy and other aspects that we're trying to get to here.

Another thing that I think is, simplifies this in a little bit of way that that goes back maybe more to the empathy. The VP I worked for at my last company, one of his favorite things to say was people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And I think the empathy gets to that.

If you can label it and you you show that you've listened, that you understand where they're coming from and how they feel, that goes a long way to show them that you actually care and they're willing to have this conversation and listen to what you have to say. I I agree. I think that sometimes people, they want to be heard and they wanna be seen.

And when they they feel like they're being recognized by another and that they're that person cares about them and their emotions, It changes the dynamic of the conversation. That's what tactical empathy is really all about. And there's, and just to kind of transition into the next, concept. There's a lot of ways that he expresses and describes going about doing that. And one of them is what's called mirroring. Now, let me take a step, a step back.

When I talk about mirroring, as far as the concept that he relays in the book, because a lot of times people hear, oh, you mean like mirror and match isn't like some kind of cheesy sales tactic that they used to use in the eighties. It is. It's a cheesy sales tactic that they used to use in the eighties. This isn't that this isn't okay. You're, you know, KOL sits back in their chair. You sit back in your chair. We're not asking you to mimic the KOL or the other person.

What Chris Voss talks about in the book as far as mirroring is that yes, it's the art of imitation, but it's more in what he calls insinuating similarity. It's getting on the same page. It's recognizing the other person's behaviors, the other person's emotions, the other person's perspective and mirroring not to match and, and necessarily imitate, but to get on the same page and to insimulate insinuate similarity. That's the whole key. So, Linda, do you wanna talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. Absolutely. The mirroring concept, is, as you say, it's been around forever, like, the the words. What I love about the way he describes it is, it to me, mirroring has accomplished a lot of things when you use a tactic like this. 1st, from a, like, just a nonverbal standpoint, the mirroring, yeah, you don't don't ever be weird. When you get to the point of being you hear, like, somebody moved you, like, you know, follow.

That that's weird, and that may that all of a sudden makes everything distracting. Right? But the the mirroring is like, you want to, like, mirror body language to the level that you eliminate any type of distraction. You like, if you are laying back doing this normal stuff and they're, like, leaning forward and trying to engage, that's an asynchronous scenario by which it causes subconscious distraction of what you're trying to talk about.

That's what he's mean meaning, and that's what the concept should be is that you're mirroring to the point where you're eliminating distraction from a nonverbal standpoint. From a verbal standpoint, in my opinion, the mirroring is very well, it's not just my opinion. It's what exactly aligns to what you're saying. You're trying to get, to the point, try to understand them, but it also helps with the, questioning.

So his his use of mirroring in a lot of his examples is is simplifying the q and a process. Like, if they say something, you can just repeat back 1 or 2 of the words that they just said to get more clarity around it. Right? So mirroring some of their language to say, you know, if they said, you know, I have a, you know, I have a patient that doesn't seem to be doing well, you know, on your drug. And you just said, doing well? You know? And so and it's a simple question.

All you have to do is mirror some of their language to ask the question to expand. And that gets to where Josh was talking about earlier is the the why, that underlying reason. That's what we wanna know. That's really the intel, the insights that are our source of competency in what we do is that's how we get to them. Yeah. Josh. This is a great this is a great tactic for that. Oh my god. Well, I'm gonna get back to this in a second.

What you just said is actually my favorite part of the whole book. Is the repeating back the last 3 or 4 words in the form of a sentence. But I want Josh to to jump in because I know he loves this tactic. Yeah. And it's it's one of these things that's so simple when you see it work multiple times in the book, but I feel like I I need to work on incorporating it in in all parts of my life. Kids, spouse, meetings, whatever.

I think it's it really is that, like Linda said, it's that digging in without, you know, you're not being aggressive about it. I think it it does 2 things at once. Right? 1, it shows that you're listening, and it builds that rapport more, but it also does it digs deeper. Right? Like you said, doing well? What does that mean? I have safety concerns. Safety concerns? It doesn't mean that they're looking at the same safety as efficacy of a trial. Right?

It's what's important to them, and you're asking that in a completely nonconfrontational way. Right? And it gives them the floor to keep talking. You want them to you want them to talk all the time. Right? Or we basically are prodding the conversation to you might have some information to transmit, but really the information we want is what they're saying. So I think that this is a a super effective tactic for that, and I think there were 2 really interesting tidbits they used.

The the one is the tips at the restaurant. They actually tested to see how well what works better to get better tips. Right? Does mirroring work or does positive reinforcement work? Oh, that's a great order. You know? You guys are awesome. Whatever whatever the positive reinforcement was. I think it was something like they got 70% higher tips by using mirroring than they did versus positive reinforcement with their customers, which just was, like, mind blowing. Right?

Merearing is was just repeating back what you ordered. That's it. Right? Yeah. Super simple. Yeah. It wasn't even information. Right? Yeah. Super simple stuff, but I think it really showed the value of that. And the other, I think, almost comical instance was when later in the book, he's talking about an example. I think he's within his own organization. At that point, his son works with him. He's having a conversation with someone else, and he keeps going on.

He's super excited about something, and all the person does is mirror him for, like, 45 minutes. And his son finally stops the conversation laughing, and he's like, don't you see what he's doing to you? He's been mirroring you for almost an hour now, and it's just it it shows even an expert in this didn't recognize that someone was doing it to him effectively, and it was a natural conversation. I think he points out in a few different places, these tactics may sound weird.

You're gonna feel awkward. Go and do them. And Yeah. They're natural conversation, and none of this feels that. Yeah. It's so amazing. I love it. Guys, you're you're really you're you're you're pulling out like, I wanna I'll go I wanna go re like, read or listen to the book again right now because you're pulling out all this great stuff. But but I wanna get back to and and, Josh, you had mentioned this before.

And, Linda, you even mentioned that one of the things that's really nice about the book is is he he gives you the how. He there's a lot of really good information that, and concepts that he shares, that'll help you to do this. And one of them is what he calls calibrated questions, asking calibrated questions. And, the idea about the goal of asking calibrated questions is to get to the point where you let the other person know that you want what they want.

But in order to do that, you have to ask open ended questions, but almost like a reporter would ask, and a reporter asked questions like who, what, where, why, how now? What Chris Voss suggests is you actually narrow it down to what and how. So do you guys wanna talk about this piece of it and how it might work? Linda, let's start with you. Yeah. So the I think the comment you just made about how he narrows is is, I think, one of the crux of the why the book is so good.

And it also lends to, one of the things that I'm always looking for is simplifying Mhmm. Stuff we already know Yep. So that you can practice and integrate it and then evolve it later. Because there is some complexity using the why questions, and there is some complexity with some of the others. But what and how are some basic practice those, man. Good good those. And, I also like tell me more in our in the MSL world, but it's it's, you know, it's the concept.

It's the same concept of of how do how do you go about this, or what does this look like when it comes to, especially, patients. Like, whenever they start talking about patients, man, they just open the door for, well, what does that look like? Man, that had to hurt. I mean, well, I don't know how many times I've said, how did you get through that?

I mean and and I'm like one of my I wouldn't call it, like, a raging skill set, but one of my skills that I'm I've honed over the years is using humor to make awkward and and challenging conversations a little bit more palatable so that people go a little bit deeper.

And, but doing it in context of how and and what questions, Use, you know, your own how you communicate, hone that because everybody has natural abilities, and that's what you gotta understand about yourself to incorporate them into and so, this basic skill set of, you know, calibrated questions, eliminate the yes, no. That's a hard thing to do. And it took me some time to make sure I wasn't asking the yes, no questions, because it ends. Right? You ask a yes, no question, the conversation dies.

It's like hitting a brick wall. It feels like hitting a brick wall in a conversation. So you want to, really develop and keep it simple. Start small. What? How? Just repetitive repetitive action gets. And all of a sudden, you start to it becomes part of normal, conversation, and you don't have to think about it as much anymore. How about you, Josh? How do you use calibrated questions? Anything to add?

Yeah. No. I think this is another example where he took a concept we're all familiar with and took it to another level. Right? They're open ended questions. That's the that's the basis. Right? And then it isn't the the yes, no, and it stops at that. But it gets to more of that, but he uses it in a way to guide discussions. He talks a little bit in negotiations too about not wanting to yes. Right? We wanna hear that no answer. Yeah. And he even as a way to say no himself without saying no. Right?

The the how do how am I supposed to do that? Which, you know, I don't know if you use it at that directly as much as an MSO. Certainly in a negotiation, you can. Well, how can I do that when I have this, you know, when I have this limitation where it can come after the summary like like Linda said? Okay. We have this, this, and this is what I'm hearing. Well, how do I move forward from there?

I think those sort of things, they're they're a little bit a way of a gentle way of doing it, of disagreeing without being disagreeable kind of thing. And a little bit you can without directly persuading someone, you can let them get there on their own. He talks a little bit about that too, letting the other person be in control. And you can ask questions that take someone down a path without really trying to convince them of anything. Right? Oh, well well, how do you do that?

And and I get his point on why why can be a dangerous one because it can it can feel like you're threatening someone, like you're attacking them. Right? But I think it gets to something else. We're gonna talk about the tone of voice. Right? All the nonverbal stuff. If you're gonna say, well, why do you do that versus, oh, why do you guys do it that way? You know, that's a completely different question. Right? And I think let them be the expert. They are the expert.

We're having a you know, we're we're establishing ourself as a peer. You get read up on this stuff. But what do I have versus a person who's dedicated their life to this and it's been practicing this since, you know, for 40 years and been the world's expert, and they're writing the guidelines that I'm talking about. Right? Why do you guys do that? Help me understand.

I think those sort of questions can really go a long way of, you know, kind of letting them show you their thought process, but also, again, giving them that credibility, letting them be the expert, those sort of things, not attacking anything. And oftentimes, again, they are the expert. Maybe they are in control, but even if you're trying to navigate a narrative, give the illusion of control to people he talks about as well.

So I I think these questions can really be a way to kinda direct something, ask questions, even say no without doing it so directly and so aggressively. You queued it up, man. You got me right to my next topic, which is the nonverbal communication. So he talks in the book a lot about the importance of nonverbal communication, and he actually presents research by Albert Mehrabian, who's like the godfather of communication. Specifically what what Morabian calls the 73855 rule.

And what that means is 93% in his research, he found now this was later disputed, but we're going to go off of this research. And this is what Chris Voss talks about in the book is that 93% of communication is nonverbal, which means only 7% of communication is the spoken word. 55%. Is body language and 38% is tone of voice. And Josh, you gave a really good example of that. So then I'm going to ask you, how important is it as an MSL to be mindful of nonverbal cues and nonverbal communication?

Yeah. So I I love this part of the book, and nonverbal, communication in general has something has been something that I've, read a lot about over my career, since I first heard about percent. And, again, the the actual numbers, it's the ratio. In the end, the majority of communication is nonverbal in tone. I mean, we can all agree with that. Who cares what the actual numbers are? It's like the majority of it. And I think we can all agree that it's probably less than 10% is verbal.

So 7 sounds like a pretty damn good number to me. So I I think, I think when it comes to the nonverbal, I always kind of look at it as a means to, as I was saying earlier, to eliminate distraction. You don't you want if you wanna make the most of that 7%, that verbal that you wanna get the most out of that. So nonverbally, you just kind of body language why you wanna eliminate anything that's gonna be distracting.

So and people pick up on your nonverbal communication subconsciously, and that's the part you want to avoid because that's the part they're gonna remember later, like, when you're not in the room, what they felt and that reaction that they were having subconsciously. And so we don't realize the impact that that has on, relationship development because what people remember later is really the value and the the, part that you want to impact. Because they're not gonna remember the 7%.

They're gonna remember how they sell. Right? Yeah. The the 7% is something that you is repetitive, you know, space active. There are a lot of research on how to get somebody to recall some of the things you teach them, but, you have to do it in that small percentage of the overall communication. But the tone is critical too. And I that's something that I I've always had to struggle with is tone because I I sound sarcastic a lot when I don't mean to.

And I sound or I sound a certain way, when I'm reacting to an engagement that I don't intend to. And I have found that when I make a mistake when it comes to tone, just acknowledging it real time, like, wait a second. That didn't come out the way I meant it's coming out and, like, correcting myself.

I find that that has as much of an impact on them remembering the fact that, you know, I'm I'm trying to to get a message across, and I'm not below or above calling myself out when I don't communicate in the way that I in you know, it was coming out of my head. Because a lot of times, how it comes out of your head is you have to practice saying it out loud. Right?

So to me, this this nonverbal and tone concept that he speaks about is it really does get to maximizing that small percent where words are actually happening. Yeah. So, Josh, I'm gonna I got 2 questions for you. I wanna hear your thoughts on the nonverbal piece, but I also want you to share with everyone. You and I and really kind of appreciated the hi. I'm Chris discount that he talks about in the book. So let's get to that second. So how do you use nonverbal cues in nonverbal communication?

Yeah. No. I think it's, again, hugely important like Linda said. It's and and it I feel like this ties into a lot of the other book. You mentioned Linda that that disconnect of what you're saying versus what I'm seeing, and I think that goes back to, again, the tactical empathy and and the rapport building and things like that. Right? I hear you saying this, but you look, you know, I don't care what it is. You know, you look taken aback by that. You look disinterested in that, whatever it is.

And I think if you can identify that, that can help further the conversation and get into the why behind you said something in a certain way that those sort of things. So I think recognizing that's huge, and it really emphasizes the importance of in person meetings. These things are great. We can see each other on video. You can get on a call. He mentioned specifically in the book.

He's like, I'll fly a long way to go meet someone in person because I get so much more out of out of that in person and those nonverbal things than I do on a phone call. Right? I'm sure you mentioned it to people, Tom. I've heard it from other people. When you're on a phone call, smile, stand up, move around. It comes across. Right? You're not even getting the the that 55% of body language based stuff, but just the tone that you get, the difference you can hear someone smiling when they talk.

Right? So I think those sort of things really come through, and I think that's directly directly applicable kinda to what we do every day. Beyond that, the the the high end Chris discounts, super interesting. Right? It comes back again. You you keep mentioning old sales tech tactics and some of these things. Everybody used to wants to use someone else in hey, Tom. How are you doing today? Tom, I really think you'd be great. You can mention a person's name once.

If you do it more than that, it's awkward. It feels salesy. Right? Right. You wanna put your own name in it to make it personal and to build that rapport and that empathy from the other person. He calls it forced empathy. They have empathy for you. And he uses a couple examples that I thought were really funny and and the the discount one in particular. Right? He goes into the store. The salesperson says, you know, do you wanna sign up for our loyalty program? He says, well, do I get a discount?

And the girl said, no. We don't we don't offer any discount for that. And he says, hi. I'm Chris. What's the discount for what's the discount for being Chris? And she goes, ask my manager who's standing right next to her, and the woman's like, the best I can do is 10%. And he's like, just a simple example like that. I made it personal, and and this person's willing to give me a discount. They don't know who I am.

I'm a person who may never come back, doesn't wanna interact with them, doesn't wanna sign up for their program, gets a discount just by making it personal. And and very simple example, but another one interesting, he's hanging out with a bunch of his FBI buddies. They're at this bar in the middle of nowhere. He goes up to sit down at the one empty seat, and the guy next to him is like, don't even think about it. And he looks at him, and he's like, okay. He goes, hi. I'm Chris.

Just introduces himself, makes it personal, starts talking to him, turns out this guy is a a Vietnam vet. There's all these FBI guys, and he's just, you know, in a bad spot in life. Everybody else is having a good time in the bar, and he's mad at the world. He made it personal, opened up a conversation, and sits down and has, you know, a good night talking with this guy and his group of friends.

So just that little bit of of forced empathy personal connection change situations for him literally just by mentioning his own name. I I love it. I the the I love the whole book, but there's just little tidbits like that that may it's one of those things. It's like you're reading the book or you're listening to the book and you're kinda smiling because you're like, you know, it's like that light bulb going off. Right?

I think you mentioned, Linda, just about how people learn, how you teach people. I think just the way this book is written is a great example of that. Right? He gives you that concept and a lot of books stop at that and try to convince you that with all this research and everything. And I that leads to another point I was just thinking of. But, I think it's written in the here's the here's the idea. Here's the theory.

Here's how you do it tactically, and then here's, like, a super wild interesting example of how it actually worked in in various different settings. And I think that's a great way, at least for me, to see yeah. It makes sense why you do it. Now I know how to do it, and look, you showed me that this actually works in a setting where you might not think it would ever do anything. Right? And I think that that idea of the research too you mentioned before. Right?

Maybe someone's disproved this research a little bit. He talks early on about negotiating with people at Harvard Business School. Right? They have the top academic minds on how to negotiate, and he's like, we're just a bunch of, like, schlubs down here at the FBI trying stuff out in the real world. It beats that academic stuff all the time. Right? So I think having a theory is a great thing, and I think it does adjust what you attempt in the real world.

But he's showing, like, these are things we tried out in the real world, the most difficult situations you can have, and they work. So I think I I like that aspect that they're willing to incorporate the the research and the ideas, but at the same time, this stuff is real world tested, and it's what works essentially. So good. So good. Guys, I I'm we could keep going. Like, like, there's still more to talk about, but I think we'll, we'll, we'll leave it at that.

I, I feel like you're probably all thinking. I can't wait to go get this book. I can't wait to read this book. I would advise that if you do have audible consider listening to it because Chris Voss narrates it. So you're listening to the guy tell the stories and explain the concepts, which is one of the reasons I think I liked it so much. It's almost like I'm a big, like, when I go on Netflix, I wanna I wanna see the true I love the true stories.

You know, you want to see the true stories in the documentaries. This is like really real stuff. And I, and I could tell you, these are 2 experts that are telling you how great it is and how much it works. And whether you're an MSL or you're a sales rep or you're a husband, a wife, or a father or a mother, these are all, relationship type suggestions and tactics and strategies that will help you in your relationships with your family, with your friends.

It's not just for in this context, we talk about how it applies to MSLs and medical affairs, but this is really for anyone. So any last minute advice from you guys, Linda? Oh, last minute. Well, I agree with the listening to the book because the storytelling is incredible. The examples, you're gonna like it's a great way to pass the time when you're in a car, on a plane, or those in between times that build the MSL's life. So Audible is a great starting point.

I actually got the, Kindle version and have a whole lot of highlights. And so I I use a bunch of other tools that extract things that I want to, remember into this learning program for repetition and seeing every day. So that's one of the reasons I did the written as well. But start with the audible. Hands down, it is so good. The storytelling is incredible, and the and keep it simple.

Start with you know, I the first time I started, applying this, I started with some basic mirroring and a little bit of labeling and applying it to, as you say, negotiation is part of everyday lives. So it's being able to apply these.

You can start straight away in any conversation with your kids, your spouse, your friends, your, and even in work environment, immediately start applying some of these, and and you're gonna be surprised the impact that that in a very short amount of time with not even being very good at it, the impact it's gonna have on establishing a deeper conversation. It's it's gonna shock you. And so please, you know, put some effort into it.

We're all in the business, of being continuous learners by definition of being an MSL you'd have to be. I think of being a good MSL. And so this is one of those skills that, everybody kind of puts it into the soft skill category, but it doesn't matter. It's the skill that you have to have to be good at your job. For sure. Josh, close us out, brother. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. The audio version's great. Chris tells the stories.

A lot of, you know, emotion and and realism in that, I think, is cool. But, I think a little bit it's advice to myself. Go out and do it. Right? You know, you you read these things. I think like Linda said, you're a continuous learner. I consume a lot of information, but then it's like I move on to the next thing and go do my job. Right? How do you build these in? And I think those low stakes environment you talked about, you know, you're talking to your kid at home, try this stuff out.

You're gonna lift on the way to a meeting, doing in that, who cares what happens, right? Then start to sprinkle it into your interactions and see where it goes and I think the more you use it and the more you practice it, it becomes second nature. There's other podcasts I listen to great interviewers and I can tell when I'm listening to it because I go into an in a, you know, a conversation with someone. I have a better conversation after I've been listening to the way they interact with people.

So I think the more you can expose yourself to it, whether it's you doing it or someone else doing it, the better your interactions are gonna be. Awesome. One last thing I'll say, guys, as a recruiter, you know, I gotta I gotta throw my 2¢ in. The the other thing that's great about this book is it's great. There's great interviewing advice and tips in there. We didn't get to it because we just ran out of time, but there's great stuff on interviewing and career development.

This is all great stuff for career development. So there's so many different aspects to it. I hope you guys got value out of this. If you did, please share it with others. Thank you always for all your support. I can't thank you guys enough. Love you all, and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.

Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.