Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Jeremy McLemore. He is a medical science liaison with AbbVie, and we discuss his goal to be an MSL and how he got there. So awesome story. Great guy. Hope you enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube and Instagram and LinkedIn. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Jeremy. How are you doing today, buddy? Hey. Doing well. How about yourself? I'm doing great.
I'm doing great. I'm really excited that you're joining me. Actually, I'm I should say I'm excited that you reached out because you had reached out to me. We had a conversation. And, I love your story. I think your story needs to be heard. So thanks thanks for spending some time with us here. Hey. Anytime, man. Good, man. Well, why don't we start with an intro? Why don't you tell everybody who you are and what you're up to these days and where you're from, all that good stuff? Sure thing.
So my name is Jeremy Macklemore. I'm originally from Shreveport, Louisiana. And I'm currently a medical science liaison at AbbVie in dermatology. Mhmm. And I, I actually transitioned from pharmaceutical sales at the same company before I got this role, and I am a graduate of the Howard University College of Pharmacy out in DC. Yeah. Yeah. You and and that's part of the interesting dynamic.
I don't wanna jump ahead, but that's part of the interesting thing is how you got into industry and transition. But let's go back. I remember, you know, when we first when we first spoke, you said that, you know, your goal was to be a medical science liaison. You wanna be an MSL. Yeah. So you got your Pharm d from Howard University. Did you go to get your Pharm d because you wanted to be an MSL, or did that happen after? It it happened after.
So when I when I started pharmacy school, my my scope of what a pharmacist was was was fairly narrow, to to be honest. So most people, when you think pharmacist, you think somebody at a CVS or a Walgreens. Mhmm. And once you get to school, that that kinda expands to, okay, you can work in a hospital. Mhmm. And I would say maybe halfway through my 4 years at Howard is when I was really exposed to, what different pharmacists were doing in the pharmaceutical industry.
And then that's where I made the decision. Hey. This is what I wanna go towards. So but how did so at that point, how did you learn about the MSL role? Right. So it was different ways. So students would or graduates, I should say, would would come back to the school and do seminars and and talk to us about things that they were doing and and different roles that they had.
And then just by being involved in different organizations where where Farmer would come come speak to us, and then from, you know, independent research just as far as, okay, you know, I'm 2 years from graduation. What what am I gonna be doing? And then that a combination or a combination, excuse me, of all those things is how I decided, alright, medical science liaison. That's that's what my goal is gonna be.
And where where you were at that point is where a lot of people are now and where a lot of people have been. So they're, you know, they're getting their doctorate or maybe just got their doctorate. They've learned about this medical science liaison role. They're excited about it. And now they're like, okay. How do I get there? How do I get this job? So why don't you walk through what did you do at that point? Sure. So I, I I reached out to different people I knew who were MSL Mhmm.
To do the best job I could to set myself up for success. And at that time, what that included was just making because at that point, my academic career and and everything that I had done in Howard was pretty much set in stone. So what the process included for me was making sure that my resume was together and then trying to secure some sort of, internship if I could, which I was successful in doing, and then for post graduation pursuing a pharmaceutical fellowship.
So that's what I kinda changed my focus for, towards the end of graduation. So I went through the whole process at APHA midyear of interviewing with different companies and made it to on-site interviews for 2, and they decided to go a different direction. So that's when I had to come up with a new plan for what I was gonna do because the fellowship had, you know, didn't didn't work out the way I wanted to. And that's like, that is such a common part of everyone's story is so you get out there.
You're doing all the right things. You're talking MSLs. Yeah. You apply for an internship. You apply for a fellowship. You're trying to get to that point, and it's not working. Right? So they come up with these setbacks. So now you didn't get the fellowship, but you did get an internship? So in in my 4th year of pharmacy school, I got the opportunity to intern at at Bristol Myers Squibb, which which helped me Mhmm. In the interview process and everything.
But, you know, it still it still wasn't enough because you can have an internship. And especially nowadays, there's people who do internships in the summer, and they go do, you know, like a a rotation, which is part of pharmacy school Mhmm. At a pharmaceutical company. And their president of of the industry pharmacist organization at their school. So it's getting increasingly competitive.
So even with me having an internship and, or a rotation, I should say, at Bristol Myers Squibb, it still wasn't enough in the in the end. So and and it's interesting that you should say that because, you know, I think a lot of people are, again, in that same situation where they're trying all these different things and they're they have some wins and and, you know, some hits and some misses, some wins and some losses. So you're obviously going through these ups and downs.
You you do an internship, you know, have an industry internship. You have your Pharm d. You're applying to positions. You're getting interviews, but you're not getting the job you're not getting jobs. So then what do you do? Like, where at that point, what do you tell people that you did that maybe helped you? Right. So I and I and I'll tell you because I like that question, and I tell this to all of my mentees and anybody who asked me the same question. So every I mean, not the every.
Most schools are going to have some sort of career placement, facilities, career placement person, something like that. Right? And especially pharmacy schools that also have a business school. And what I did at that point was you know, I said, hey. I'm about to graduate. At the very least, I wanna be able to to put food on the table and put a roof over my head. So, you know, I set everything up to make sure I was good post graduation for licensure. So I said, hey.
Regardless of what happened, I know absolute worst case scenario, I can go work at CVS and and be alright. But I went to, Howard University Business School. They were having, like a like a career day, basically. People from different companies would come and and, you know, showcase their their company different, opportunities that they had available. And on that day, Blue Shield of California, which became my first job out of out of school, Blue Shield of California was there.
They were recruiting, from the East Coast, for people to come to California. And, you know, I met with the people, like like what they were saying, applied, flew out for an interview. And, you know, for them, you know, skills that I had and and, you know, what I could speak to that I that I wanted to do and that I've already accomplished, it it was a match. And so I started my career after pharmacy school in California in managed care.
Yeah. Wow. And and the you know, that's another theme that we hear is that sometimes it's important to take a bit of a side step. And it's not even a side step. It's a step forward into either your first industry role or maybe an equivalent, like, managed care. I mean, that's a great way to segue into industry because you're obviously working in industry, just working on the payer side. Right. It's a great foundation. So how long did you do that for?
So I was I was in California for about about 2 years. So what happened was I I started with Blue Shield of California. I was living in Sacramento at first. Mhmm. And after a year, Blue Shield acquired CareFirst California. Right. And one of their one of their hubs was in was in San Diego. And so, you know, took the opportunity to say, hey. You know, we want you to work on some different stuff. Would you be interested in moving to San Diego?
And I actually did with a classmate of mine who was also working at Blue Shield after after graduation. Mhmm. And so then I was in San Diego for about 6 months when, I don't know if you're familiar with the a APHA Midyear Conference. So it's big yeah. So big conference that a lot of pharmacists go to. And that year, it happened to be in Anaheim, which is maybe an hour or so from where I was staying in San Diego. And so this is one of the few times a year I get to see all of my my pharmacy guys.
Right? You know, we're all in different parts of the country. And, I'm at a I'm at a one of the reception, and I and I run into Mitchell Linton. I have to say his name because he's the reason I'm up here. I run into him. I know he was a big industry guy, and I say, hey. How are the fellowship inter interviews going? And he said, oh, I'm not doing that. I'm interviewing for a sales role with AbbVie. Mhmm. And so I asked him, woah. How did you how did you come across that?
And it's interesting because his story, he went he was going to, business comp like, NBA, young young NBA conferences and things like that. And so that's how he came into the role. And so I said, hey. You know, share my information with whoever you're interviewing with. I I'd love to be, considered. And so I do that. About 2 weeks later, I get hit for an interview for a job in Virginia where they had already picked or no. Excuse me.
A job in Northern Virginia where they had already picked someone. But the the hiring manager said, hey, Jeremy. I also realized it's 6 AM right now, and we're interviewing. You're in California. We're on the East Coast. And I said, yeah. You know, I didn't I didn't want any barriers to me getting this opportunity. And and the manager, she said, you know what? I I have something for you. We're hiring in Las Vegas also. Would you would you consider there? And I said yes.
And and, again, in the back of my mind, this is going to help me get that MSL role. Yeah. I will take it. So I pack up. You know, I mean, go go through the process of interviewing, interview with teammates, interview with the the regional director. And, you know, a couple weeks later, I'm packing everything into my car and driving Geez. To Las Vegas. That's a I love that story. I love that. See, this part of the story, this there like, the right? What you just said, there's so much to unpack.
Mhmm. That is such valuable advice to folks. And it's not if just folks that are looking for MSL jobs and careers and getting into industry. It's it's really for any job seeker because you really need to put yourself out there. You have to take some risk. You have to be adaptable, and you have to be flexible. And that's what you did. So you take your first position in managed care. So it's it's kind of a a stepping stone position.
And then you put yourself out there and you get out to this conference and do networking, which is such an important piece of this equation. While you're doing the networking, you apply to another stepping stone position through a colleague. So you didn't apply online. You go through a colleague who walks your resume into the front door, and you interview for this other position.
But at the same time, you're getting up at the crack of dawn, right, to interview real super early, showing them that you're gonna do whatever it takes. And you took a position in another city, so you moved again. You've already moved once. You're moving again to position yourself for the ultimate goal, which is to be an MSO. Well, let's go back a second. So you're doing all that, and and I wanna congratulate you. I love that part of the story. Yeah. So tell me about your experience in sales.
How did you how did it go? How did you like it? What did you think? Sales was interesting, man. And and, again, I'll I'll I'll start. If I had the opportunity, I would I would do it over again every single time. It was a it was a love hate relationship, but it was, you know, one sales isn't for everybody, and I think it takes a special type of person to do pharmaceutical sales especially.
But, overall, the benefits greatly outweighed any any complaints I had about being a sales rep because I wouldn't I wouldn't have gotten to where I am without that experience. Mhmm. But as a and, you know, I I'm always gonna be an advocate for for sales as a as a segue Mhmm. In the the pharmaceutical industry, but I I just gained so many skills that I know for a fact I didn't have coming out of pharmacy school.
Yeah. So just in the spirit of being able to to speak to different things and to be just more knowledgeable about the industry and to be able to talk the language of of pharma, that was you know, being a sales rep was invaluable. Sure. Hey, coincidentally, and just I mean, I come from the same background. Mhmm. I my one of my really, my earliest part of my career, I actually you and I have this kind of parallel because I started on the managed care side.
So my first job at a college was I was selling HMO plans. In, like, 1990, no one even knew what an HMO was. It was ridiculous. A lot of people still don't know what HMO is. I mean, it's 30 years ago. You know, I'm knocking on doors telling people I had to change their doctor because, you know, they weren't in the the plan. You know? Right. Great foundation, but then I got into pharmaceutical sales, and I did that for, like, 10 years.
And the thing is and the reason I mentioned it and the reason why I wanna highlight this, I think that what you did was really smart because you're you know, you get into managed care and you learn this skill set. You learn about the payer side. You learn about that part of the industry. You go into sales and you develop transferable skills to the MSO role. You're developing a skill set and a knowledge that you're gonna take with you.
You're gonna show that it's transferable into the MSO role, and that's how you build a resume. Yeah. So you do all this and you gain all this experience, and you're there. At that point, was it still your goal to be an MSO, or were you like, know, I really kinda like this sales thing. Like, where were you at at that point? No. The the goal is still to be an MSL. So I would say maybe a year and some change into the sales role is when I said, alright.
Let me let me start putting some feelers out for for different MSL roles. But because for me, I I had set the goal that at 2 years in is when I would start actively trying to transition because I don't I don't wanna be in the sales role too short and not feel like I really mastered it to the extent that I can I can speak to it confidently and and really say that I've I've, you know, lived and breathed this role Mhmm? For it to be for it to be helpful for me. So you know?
And and I will say I did consider you know, because as as you're in commercial, you hear about different roles and, you know, different types of promotions, and, oh, you can go do this in marketing or or this in in commercial and things like that. So I definitely listened to them and and and kept those on on the radar. But in the hierarchy of things that I wanted to do next, and be becoming field medical was still number 1. Yep. So how did you make that work? What was what did you do next?
Obviously, so you still have this goal. And I I I could appreciate the fact that you wanted to stick around for a while, give it a chance, you know, get get that tenure on your resume so it doesn't look like you got into it and just kinda jumped. So what did you do next? How did you position yourself further, and how did you actually get to that MSL position? So I think the it starts with being transparent with with your leadership.
So whether that'd be your, you know, manager or director or what have you. And, you know, when we do those those quarterly at at AbbVie, like, talent reviews and and performance reviews, you know Mhmm. My conversations were always centered around, hey. I understand that I'm here, and I want to excel at this job. In addition to that, my goal is to become an MSL in the next 3 to 5 years. This is what I feel like I'm doing that's helping me with that. Mhmm. What as as my leader as as right?
As my leader, what else do you feel like I could be doing, or what other opportunities are there for me in the context in the sales world that can help me do that while also benefiting our business and and the role that I'm that I'm currently in? So having those conversations early on and being intentional about that, I feel like was was really helpful for me. And then once the time came where I said, okay. I've gotten, you know, almost 2 years under my belt. I've got a launch under my belt.
Mhmm. You know, I've engaged with a ton of different KOLs from the commercial perspective. I've like, I've built some great relationships, made some accomplishments here. Let me look at geographically and and, you know, some things in MSL roles that I feel like I I have a fighting chance at. Mhmm. And so I'm gonna be honest with you. The the first after the first 3 to 4, I was unsuccessful. I was close. But it it didn't work out, for various reasons.
You know, some a lot of times, they're just looking for people with more experience, especially depending on, you know, the circumstances around the role. Maybe you're taking over for somebody who was who, you know, had been there for 17 years or something like that, so they want somebody with experience. And what happened for me was I'd applied for a role with with AbbVie in in Texas that was that was in dermatology, And it and it didn't work out for the reason that I've just described.
But then another another series of physicians opened up that happened to be for the same drug, Renbo, for rheumatoid arthritis that I was selling in Las Vegas just in for for dermatology condition. And so when I saw that, I said, alright. This is this is the one. Right? It's a it's a drug that I already have experience with.
It's a different disease state, but, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna flip that into well, I have experience in another disease state, and I think it's going to help your business and fill medical dermatology because I bring a different perspective. And I bring different things that I could speak to that your current MSOs may not even be privy to. Add into that, just the like you said before, the the transferable skills Mhmm.
That exist between field sales and field medical, I make sure to hone in on that to kinda put the rest that, oh, well, you don't have experience. You haven't been in MSL before. Right? Because that's I feel like that's gonna come up for anybody who is in my position or anybody who hasn't been in MSL before who's attempting to get into the role.
They I I created such a story around not only the transferable skills themselves, but what I what I was able to do with those and be successful as a sales rep, that it it made too much sense not to give me the opportunity. Right. So getting back, because there's something that you had said, you know, when we first started the you know, this part of the conversation. You said that be transparent with leadership. Make sure that they're aware of your goal. I'm curious.
How what was the response from your leadership when you told them that you wanted to eventually be an MSL? Were they supportive, or were they like, oh, no, man. You know, we don't wanna lose you. You know, you're on you're on our team. We wanna develop your career here. How what was the response? It was it was positive. Mhmm. I gotta say it was positive. And I think because because I framed it the way I did. Right?
So it wasn't just you know, I didn't start as a sales rep and then say you know, you can't just give them, well, hey. I wanna go do something else. And every day I wake up, I'm thinking about doing something else. It was Right. Hey. I'm here, and I'm present, and I want to excel at this role Mhmm. For you know, I I don't even think I necessarily said 2 years or anything like that, but I said I'm here. But I just want you to understand that this is what I'm working for Mhmm.
As a next step for me. And I think it was helpful because I had leadership who was invested in in professional development for their direct report. And so when you have somebody when you have good leaders, when you have people who have done this before and develop people and since then promoted them to different places, It it's a good conversation all around Yeah. I think. But that's a I think that's such a smart I mean, you were so smart to say, hey. Look. You know, I wanna do a good job here.
I wanna do a good job for you, and I wanna do a good job in my current role. But I also have goals, and I also wanna aspire to do some other things, instead of just being like, hey. The only reason I came here is because eventually I wanna be an MSL. I don't I don't think anybody wants to hear that. I I I think that you took the perfect approach and it paid off.
The other thing that that, again, you know, it keeps coming up in your story, and that's one of the things that I love about, you know, your story is a story of success and failures. Right. And you got through those failures. I mean, you you know, you went on a bunch of interviews. Like, you didn't just, you know, go and apply to a position and just get it. You went on a bunch of different interviews. You applied to a bunch of different positions, and you didn't get them all.
You also opened yourself up. I mean, you've just in this last few minutes, they you know, whatever however however long we've been talking, 20 minutes or whatever, you've already moved 3 or 4 times. Right. Or at least you know? So, you know, you had that level of of flexibility and adaptability. You had again, you have this whole goal the whole time of where you want it to be, and that's what you work towards. But you also didn't do it in a hasty fashion.
You did it over the course of time because these things don't happen overnight. They do not. That resilience I mean, how did you were you like, how frustrated were you? And were you just like, hey, Jeremy. Just telling yourself, be be patient, be resilient. I'll say I'll say this, man. The I think the lowest point was probably the end of pharmacy school when I had applied for the different fellowships. Got, like, I think, 3 rejections.
Mhmm. And there was there was this period where I just didn't know what was next. Mhmm. And, you know, I I joke with people about this, but at the same time, it was very serious. I I felt like I was going through what I call a quarter life crisis. It's like I was I was I was 26. Yeah. You know, I'm I'm graduating. I don't know what my next job is. And to make it worth, all of my closest friends were like, oh, yeah. I'm headed off to Merck. I'm headed off to Pfizer, etcetera, etcetera.
And it's just like, man, this this is terrible. Right? But then I just had to pick it up and, you know, that that's when I started. You know, let me look at these MBA focused opportunities. You know, started at Blue Shield. And then once I got there, I was just saying, hey. You know, I'm gonna I mean, same concept. Right? I'm gonna focus on on doing well here, but I still have this goal in mind.
And and when I started applying for the MSL roles, the thing is, I had high expectations, but I didn't have my hopes up, if if that makes sense. So, you know, you you go you apply for anything. You, you know, you give it your all 100%, and you put your best foot forward. But I understood that there were gonna be some noes along the way. Mhmm. Right?
And so the way I the way I try to focus my energy as as far as focusing on what I can control and what I know I can I can be a master of, that's just what I chose to do? Right? So if they if they decide, hey. We're not gonna move you forward in the interview process. That's not really something I can do. However or I can I can control? But once I get the interview, it it's been a pretty successful process for me.
So Mhmm. Any any chance that I was as far as applying for MSL roles once I was a sales rep, any opportunity where I got to be in front of somebody, I always left that conversation feeling like I left it all on the field because all of that is in my control, how I respond to things, how I prepare, most importantly, you know, remembering the things that I that I wanted to speak to. I always felt like I could be in control of that.
And, you know, even even if I I get a no, we went with somebody else, it it never really felt bad because I know that I gave it everything. So, you know, understand that you're gonna have frustration, but focus your focus your energy elsewhere. Man, that's so important. That is probably the most important thing in the whole equation is that you just do the best job with what you have at that time. So if you have an interview and you have to just cross every t dot every I, put everything into it.
And if it doesn't work out to your point, you you set your expectations where it doesn't work out. Maybe it just wasn't meant to be, but you go equally as hard the next time because that's what it takes going above and beyond. So now you ultimately get the MSL position through you so you kept applying internally, making Well, I I applied externally and internally. Okay. You applied externally and internally, but you eventually wound up landing in internal role. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. Got you.
Okay. And do you think that's you I mean, do you think that's because of the networking that you did from your reputation within the organization as a really good, you know, sales rep and someone that was a performer? Like, how what what do you think ultimately led to them giving you that role? I think it was a perfect storm. So, I mean, I definitely made sure to network appropriately.
And, you know, I I know for a fact that people from leadership and and people from field medical leadership specifically reached out to teammates of mine and managers of mine to, you know, to get a different perspective. So, you know, one thing I tell a lot of my mentees is even if you think you're by yourself, someone's always watching. Mhmm. That's true.
Like, some somebody is always you know, regardless of whether it's in a professional setting, personal setting, that's all gonna go into this, like, matrix of experiences that they that they have about you Mhmm. That can be pulled out at any point when, you know, a field director from Georgia or Virginia reaches out to ask about Jeremy.
So I felt like just by by doing my job with integrity and and put my best foot forward, that helped my case because the commercial leadership has positive things to say. But then just by networking with people in different parts of the organization, like different employee resource groups, a lot of the the field medical leadership were were part of those. And so that that was another outlet for people to to learn about Jeremy.
And so I can have positive things being said about me when I'm not even in the room or on the Zoom, you know, whichever whichever one you wanna go with. But, I think it was that coupled with the fact that, you know, the drug that I was gonna be working with is what I've launched and and sold in a different capacity. But that's that that's the other piece of the story that I I really appreciate is that you're right. People take notice.
And you develop a reputation based upon how you transact business, how you handle yourself, how you correspond, how you interact, how you, you know, position yourself, whether it's internally or externally. Even I mean, it's no mistake that you got that job internally because you did such a great job. You networked. Mhmm. And, you know, it followed you. That reputation followed you. So it just makes sense.
But even even when you apply to positions externally, there's going to be that word-of-mouth that's going to help you get the job. Because the industry seems big, but it's not. It's small. Everybody knows each other. Right? Very small. Yeah. So let me ask you this. And this is this is more from my own personal, but, you know, certainly professional curiosity. So what would you say you've been on the sales side, you've been on the commercial side, and now you've been in MSL.
So what are the big differences? Like, what's the difference? That's a that's a good question, man. I I've actually been asked that a a a few times. So and it's interesting because I feel like there are so many similarities that it's often hard to tease that answer up. Mhmm. But I would argue that we're doing similar work Mhmm. But in in a different context, like, in a different capacity. Right? And the way I think of it is the purpose of commercial is or commercial reps is to drive demand.
Mhmm. And you're and you're only on label. You can't speak to anything off label. You can't speak to clinical trials that aren't part of that. So you're you're trying to drive demand by showcasing the benefit, showcasing the the safety Mhmm. And, you know, making these persuading these doctors to want to utilize your product versus field medical where we don't necessarily have an intention to for for you to prescribe more or less. It's just, hey. I represent this product.
This is the information we have, and I need you to understand where this fits in your treatment algorithm, where this fits with everything else that you you may be wanting to use, on label and off label thing. Right? So it it's more of a because I I really do feel like it's it's more research and development versus you know, I'm not trying to persuade you to do anything.
Answering questions that you may have that are that are deep into into the data, answering questions you may have just as far as patient communication. Right? Right. But it's it's it's fulfilling the need of the the KOLs just in in different ways than than a commercial rep would be able to. Yep. And, obviously, there's big compliance focus more so on the medical affairs side, and it's nonpromotional.
So I think people really understand the the the main nuances to it, but I think that's a great explanation. And I think that that's something that hopefully people will be able to take away from. And and, as they start to look at well, may I don't know. Maybe there's people out there that are looking to transition industry, and maybe they do wanna consider a sales role. Let me ask you this, because I always like to ask this question before I close.
You know, folks like you that that have gotten to that pinnacle, you reached your goal, you became an MSO, you defied all the odds, and went through a lot. That's why I love your story because you went through so much and, you persevered, and you got through the challenges and the hurdles, and, and you made yourself flexible and adaptable. And we talked about all those things.
But at this point, after we covered all this, what final piece of advice would you give somebody that's struggling, that's looking to break into an MSO role? And they're where you were, you know, back when you were, you know, at that low point. Do the leg work and the research. Mhmm. You gotta you gotta create a create a create the best success for yourself. Right?
So doing the leg work as far as you know, glad people reach out to me all the time and, you know, stuff stuff like not really understanding the MSL role, that should be that should be day 1 Yeah. In my opinion. So doing the leg work as far as understanding the role, looking at yourself and your profile and and seeing, well, where are my holes here? What's what's what's strong? What's what's weak? And where do I where do I need to improve?
Like, really being intentional and putting effort into that. I would say get mentors, people who can who can help you with, with what you need to do. Mhmm. But just in in general, doing the doing the research and creating a plan for how you're going to attack it. I think that's so that's so key. And it go and it's it's such a great way to kinda conclude because your store I mean, even the title of this this podcast, your goal was to be an MSL.
You started with that goal, and you didn't stop until you got there. And everything you did along the way that you just explained is really helpful to know for anybody that is putting together an organized job search for any position, really. Set your goal and then take massive action towards that goal. And the more flexible you are, the more nimble you are, the better your chances are. So what's next for you? What's what's, last question? What where does Jeremy wind up next, would you say?
What's your new goal? Man, there's I got a lot going on now, man. But, right now, it you know, I'm in the I feel like I'm in the same phase I was that 1st year as a sales rep. I gotta figure out what what it means to to be an effective MSO. Uh-huh. There's some, I mean, as of right now, I'd I'd like to my my immediate goal is I'm currently in MSL 1, trying to get to to MSL 2, seeking out different responsibilities and and things there.
But this this COVID environment has made it an interesting time to to start as an MSO, but Mhmm. I'm look I'm looking forward to to a post post pandemic, at least at least grow. But focusing focusing on on growing as in as in MSL. And, I actually just got engaged this past weekend. So so that's another, another journey I'm embarking on. Thank you. Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, listen, man. You're an inspiration, and I love your story. Again, I've said it a 1000000 times.
And I I I know that what you just shared with everybody is gonna be really, really helpful. And whatever it is, I could tell you just from talking to you, whatever your next goal is, I know you're gonna crush it. I know you're gonna be an awesome MSL, and you're gonna figure out appreciate that, man. You've proven that, and you're gonna keep crushing it. So, hey, thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing your story. And congrats, man. Congrats on your engagement. Best Hey. I I appreciate it.
Alright, man. Good catching up. Thanks again. Alright. Take it easy. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again. And we look forward to seeing you soon.