Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Eleonora Goldberg. She is vice president of medical affairs at Arrowhead Pharmaceuticals, and we talk about MSL visibility and how to succeed in 2024. So it's a great way to kick off the year. I think you guys are really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn, and check us out at MSL Talk Live, which is typically the 1st Tuesday of every month, but look for the notifications on LinkedIn.
And you guys have an amazing start to your year. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Eleonora. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. Hey. Thanks for having me. How are you? I'm awesome. I'm excited. This is gonna be the first episode of 2024. No pressure. But we're kicking off a new year with this episode. So thank you for being here.
And, guys, just so you know, I always like to explain how these things come into being. And I actually met Eleonora at a conference. It was actually Mass West in San Diego, and we talked a little bit more so after it came up with this idea, her idea, which I think is great, and I think it's perfect to get us started into a new year. So before we do that, Eleonora, why don't you introduce yourself and tell everybody who you are, where you're from, all that good stuff?
Yeah. Thank you, and happy new year. Here's to 2024. So, my name is Eleonora Goldberg. I'm the vice president of medical affairs at Arrowhead Pharmaceuticals, and, I've been in medical affairs for over 20 years. And so most of that time was, at Amgen where I was, responsible for a variety of different areas at the local level, the regional level, and the global level, all different aspects of medical affairs, all different therapeutic areas. And before that, I had been in MSL.
So I I got my PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology knowing full well I wanted to go into industry and had no idea how to do that, how I was gonna break down the door when you needed experience to get in, but didn't have experience to get in. And so, eventually found the MSL role and did that for quite a few years. Absolutely loved the MSL role and think it's one of the best roles out there.
And so, as I've progressed in my career, I continue to hold that view that MSLs are awesome, and it's just a not only is it a great job, it's a very important and valuable job for the organization. So I'm happy to talk today about, how MSLs do play an impact in in the organization. Yeah. And and we're gonna get to that, but, like, I don't wanna glance over this what you just heard because so Eleonore was like, yeah.
I had no intention of, you know, doing anything but getting into industry, but had no experience. And here we are. She's a vice president of of medical affairs for a pharmaceutical company. So pretty amazing career trajectory. So we should celebrate that a little bit, and I think it's perfect because we're gonna talk about MSL visibility, and how to stand out, which clearly she has done. So perfect Yeah. Perfect guest.
But before I think the best place to start would be, and I and we hear the word value a lot when as it relates to MSLs in the grand scheme of things within medical affairs. So let's talk about, you know, what your take is on the value of the MSL. Yeah. Happy to do so, and and I can approach it definitely from being an MSL and then from the leadership perspective as well as, you know, why do we need MSLs? MSLs haven't been around forever. It was a relatively new role.
It's still pretty new in industry. And still, if you, you know, you all know when you're in MSL and your family or friends ask you what you do, it's not so easy to explain. So it can be very different. And from company to company, from therapeutic area to therapeutic area, from product to product, it varies what an MSL role is. And so what is that value that you bring to the organization? And it's really that ability to, in my mind, talk science without being in the lab doing science.
So, of course, I got my PhD in the lab knowing full well I wasn't gonna stay in the lab, but now I get to talk science. And so that is critical for, companies to be able to have people that are doctorate trained that can talk peer to peer with other physicians about the science behind the products and everything that comes along with it. And so that's the value we bring. How are we different from everyone else?
It's it's that's the thing that we bring that makes us unique, and that makes us be valuable for the organization. Got you. Well, you know and it's it's that's such a great explanation because when you I think sometimes you gotta break it down to exactly what it is, but there's so much more that goes with it. We're gonna get to all that. But when it comes to the, the MSL, what, you know, what matters most to leaders like yourself, and what do you look for in MSLs?
Yeah. That's a very good question because when we're talking about value, what we're talking about the role, you know, the role of MSL isn't just a checkbox exercise that you go and do x, y, and z. Right? There's so much more that goes into it. And so as a leader, as, you know, if you're looking at how do you show that value, it's it's not an easy value that you just say, you know, we increase sales like a sales rep can do or, you know, something that's very tangible.
What we do, not only is it not tangible, but it's long term. So we're building relationships with opinion leaders at a variety of different level. Those relationships aren't transactional per se. So it's not like I give you something, you give me something, we're done. It's that relationship we're building over time, and that takes time and isn't always quantifiable or easy. So how do you show that value to leadership?
And there's a variety of different ways you can do that, but it's highlighting the impact you're making. So you can try to quantify it by having surveys or by having things that that, you know, we've done in the past, which is what action was taken from a physician after they met with an MSL. Again, it's not gonna be a onetime. I met with them once and this happened. It's over substantial amount of time. We met, we engaged, they had this information, and this thing happened. That's amazing.
Whether that's a presentation that they gave that included your data, a publication that was out there with your information, and may maybe that information wasn't being presented before, wasn't included before. Now it is, like, how you're being able to show that change in time from what was seen before to what is seen after. Those are the things. And and, again, it's not tangible. It's not like you can do a report. It's, you know, it's a little bit more than that.
So it's a little bit of being able to tell your story to say, hey, I've been meeting with this person. This person led me to that person. That person led me to this discussion. I brought this discussion back to the company. We ended up deciding these three things. Then we went back, and then these are the outcomes that came of it. This was over a 3 year period. And, wow, this is a huge impact. So it's not something that is short term.
It's not something that, you know, is in a report that you can do very quickly. But it's something that that value is more of a long term. And so I think from a perspective of how you look at your job and the value you bring to the organization, it's looking at it from a long term. But then at the same time, obviously, from a day to day and a week to week, you're also having to show what it is you're bringing.
And so, yes, do we all love inputting our engagements into the system or putting in weekly or monthly activities that we did. No. It's probably not anyone's favorite part of the job, but it is an important part of the job because you're also building that work that you're doing. It's not just, again, a one off, but it's, here's the group of people I've met with. Here's the conversations I've had, and then here's, you know, what's come out of it over time.
But it's those day to day, you know, Rome didn't get billed overnight kind of a thing. It's the day to day things that you're doing that then get you to that next, next level to be able to show that story that you're you're trying to tell. Yeah. It's tough.
And and to I guess one of the ways to describe how tough what you just said is is when you go to these conferences every year, whether it's, you know, MAPS or any of these industry conferences, Mass East, Mass West, this is always a topic of conversation. It's always there's some Yeah. Session, right, about value. Because since the beginning of the MSL, there's always been how to do the MSLs prove value to the organization.
And you just very eloquently spelled that out and talked about how important it is to highlight the impact, but that's not that easy to do, and it takes a long time, and it's a long game. So my question is, how would you suggest or how can MSLs stand out and separate themselves from their peers? Yeah. So I'll start by saying that the first thing we can do is come together, not to stand out from our peers, but come together as what we accomplished together as a team.
To not say again, I was I was talking about how one MSL can meet with 1 person, but it's really that plethora of work that's been done over time that gets you to to a different place. I think the same can be said about a team. So it's not one person, but it's the whole team. It's the work of the entire team and everything they're doing all over the country or all over the world is what's elevating everyone.
But then for an individual, if if you have that interest in moving either to different parts of the organization are growing within your career, what is it that you can do as an individual to highlight? I think those are the things that you come and tell the stories of the engagements you're having, the conversations you're having, the questions that are coming to you, and and making sure you're you're sharing that.
One of my favorite sayings as an MSL is that if you're if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, doesn't make a sound. I think that's the same thing. We're not all there in the room when you're engaging with an opinion leader. You're having a conversation with an HCP or you're presenting to a group. So we don't know what's happening. So what questions are coming in? What conversations are you having? What is the moment for that person?
So it's being able to come back and share that information, share it with your manager, share it with your peers. I think that's another important component is that you're not only doing it for yourself or for your manager, but you're sharing with your peers. Here's something I really had that was amazing. Let me share it with you and then ask them, are you hearing the same thing, or are you hearing something differently? Or this is how I handled it. How would you have handled it?
Or even I have no idea how to handle this. What would you do? Right? So all those different areas of bringing the team together and and making each other better then elevates the team and then shows the value you bring to the organization. So I think it's really important to be able to do that. That's a great perspective. I I you know, I probably asked that question before on on this podcast, probably a bunch of times, But I love the teamwork aspect of that.
And I think and you tell me, but I would think that when you see that in an MSL or see that in your MSLs, I'm sure as a leader, you have to say, okay. That's really important. That person gets it. They get it not just for themselves. They get it for the team. They get it for the organization. They get it for the strategic goals of everyone involved, not just what they do. So, I mean, is that something you just look for, and and how obvious is it?
Yeah. I think it it it can be fostered by management. It can be fostered by an an individual. But I also think that once a leader sees someone rising up and sharing and helping those people get elevated within the organization.
So if I see an MSL that is doing those kinds of things or has these examples, I'm gonna invite that MSL to come speak to a leader, come speak to the chief medical officer, come speak to the development team, because come speak to a cross functional, venue where they can share what they're hearing. So I think by rising up, by sharing, by helping others, by being open, then I think doors open up to you of other places where then your visibility will increase. So I think it's it comes hand in hand.
It's not like you are constantly saying, hey. I wanna I wanna go present here or do that. It's more of through your hard work and effort that then it gets recognized and then you get elevated and that visibility then increases. I I think that's great advice. I think actually, I'm hoping people are taking notes right now because I that's, again, that's something somewhat novel, and we haven't talked about that. At least if we did, I don't remember.
But I think that that's really, that's something that I think everyone can and should be doing. What else, though? Like, when when it comes to skills that need to be developed, what else would you say is important to for MSLs to be more effective? Yeah. I think first and foremost is that expertise. You've got to be an expert in your clinical trials and the data and the therapeutic area. That that's table stakes, and and the most important part.
I think from there, the second thing is, you know, those those soft skills we always talk about, how to build relationships, how to engage with others. And I think the most critical one is being able to ask questions and then listen. And so it's not so much about you going out and and giving, you know, the information you know. It's it's having a conversation similar to how you and I are having a conversation now. It's not me telling you or you telling me.
It's us having a conversation and then asking the right questions and being able to bring that information back. So I think the role of the MSL has evolved from 1 I think when it first started, it was more of, you know, here's the information, go out and let people know about this information. To now, it's more of we're the eyes and ears out there. So not only are we giving information, but we're also getting information.
And that is a critical component and being able to develop questions, on how you want to engage and what information you want And individualize each engagement is really important. So you don't have the same three generic questions that you are asking everyone. It's based on the relationship you have and what you're talking about, what they already know that then you can develop and and individualize, the questions you're asking. Awesome.
And and to add to that, like, all these I think all these things that we're talking about are really good ways for MSLs to perform and to get noticed and to stand out. Is there anything else are there any other advice that you have that would help in that regard? Yeah. I think it's important to keep your head down in the sense of understanding what your role is and not getting maybe wrapped up in other things that are going on, but just you own your geography.
You you are you know, it's similar to a PhD program where you own your your project, you own your what you're gonna do, your pub plan. I think planning ahead is really important. So when you're out in your geography, you have a plan of who it is you want to engage, why you're engaging with them. And that's something that I think we can learn a lot from our our sales counterparts is that they do a really good job of planning and segmenting who they're gonna engage and why.
And I think we can always do a better job of that using data to understand who are the people we want to engage and how and plan, when we're gonna engage and why we're gonna engage with them. All of those components, we don't always do as well. So those are areas that you can continue to evolve and build and and grow and think about how it is you want to, you know, develop your your the area you're responsible for. Got it.
Yeah. You know, and I we've talked about this a lot on this podcast, the the idea of performance and metrics and KPIs, and there's a lot of different ways that companies evaluate MSL performance. I'm curious. What's your take on that, and what do you look for? Yeah. I think you can't get away from metrics. I and I think they're important because they do tell a story. So I think the engagement in the field, definitely, you start there.
Like, that's if you're not out in the field, then nothing else can happen. Right? And so that is the first step, and that has to be captured, and and you can't really get away from that. Then from there, though, it's what you do with that engagement. You can have a 100 engagements that go absolutely nowhere. You can have one engagement that's amazing that that changes the whole strategy of a company. Right? And so somewhere in the middle is where most of us probably lie.
And so, making sure we're understanding, like, what it is that we're engaging and then how we go about doing that, I think, is is really important. And then from there, it's it's those wins moments, the stories that you're telling of the relationships you have.
For me, the favorite is if they're calling you, asking you for information or questioning or questions that they can't find elsewhere, those kinds of things really show that you've you've made it and then being able to share that information with with your colleagues in house. But it's it's building on it it all builds on itself. So you you start with your engagements in the field. You start with what you're what you're talking to them about, and then what's what's coming back.
And then I think at the very highest level is the analysis of that. So just because you have an end of one that says something doesn't mean that's true or accurate, but it could be an outlier, and it could be a very important outlier. So being able to analyze the totality of the work you're doing, the totality of the engagements to say, hey. I'm hearing this from multiple places. Maybe this is something that needs to be elevated. So that analysis then takes you to that next level.
That's the most important part of it in my mind, beyond the individual engagements or the one on one relationships that you're building. Yeah. And I like I like how you said it builds on itself because it's this isn't an exact science, especially now. I mean, we've there's been so many changes since COVID, pre COVID, post COVID. So it it's it's a moving target in a way.
Again, I've talked to enough people both on this podcast and in my day job to learn and see how challenging it can be, especially with access and, you know, then performance and and making sure you're on top of these metrics, and then also the insights and and everything else that goes along with it. So what do you think like, how might 2024 be different, and what do you think MSLs need to do to prepare for that?
Yeah. And, you know, I've been I've been doing a lot of reading on what's going on in our industry. It's it's a tough industry to be in right now, and I think it's gonna continue in 2024. I'm gonna put on my rose colored glasses and say that it's gonna get better next year. Yeah. But I I think coming out of the pandemic, what I've seen over the last couple years is the importance of engagement at congresses and large congresses, small congresses.
I've seen the increase of it being more difficult to engage at the institutional level and just the amount of time people have to me is getting less and less. So I see those spaces that if people are carving out time to be able to go to a congress, they have more time to engage. And so I think that's an area that will continue to grow in importance as people continue to go to those conferences with the caveat that some people are choosing to go virtually instead.
So that makes it even a little bit more challenging. But if you have people and, opinion leaders, HCPs that are attending congresses, I think that's one place, to go. I think another place to go is, depending on your therapeutic area, is it the physician? How do we broaden who else we're engaging? So that's another area of when, you know, when I first started as an MSL and I had a geography as large as half the country, I was meeting with just the very top opinion leaders.
But as my role evolved into a smaller geography, I was meeting with more people. And and I think over time as decisions are being made by more more and more people beyond physicians, it's important that they're aware and engaged and educated on the information we have to provide, the science behind the molecules, the clinical trial data, and that information. And so keeping yourself abreast of who those people are and engaging.
And and and finally, horizon scanning, understanding your therapeutic area, how the standard of care is changing, and, being you know, as I started with what's the most important aspect of an MSL is be being an expert. It's continuously growing and learning and being aware of new data that's coming out and what else is happening in that particular area. So maintaining that knowledge is is critical for your success too. Yep. Yeah. There's so much to unpack there.
That was that was a lot of really good information. I love the idea. I just think that the conference piece is really important because FaceTime has definitely been a challenge. So that's you almost have a captive audience in a sense. Exactly. So I think that's definitely something to embrace. I I'm saying that it I'm biased because I love going to conferences, and I love seeing people at conferences. So I I'm a big admin kid. So let's let's take a look.
Obviously, you know, there's been so much instability when you look at 2023 and everything that has transpired and and, the challenges and layoffs and and some of the things that have affected the industry. But then there's also the uncertainty just on the day to day that happens as an MSL, like, you know, bad data readouts and just different things that affect the role. So there's I don't mean to be negative, but there's there is a lot of instability and uncertainty.
So can you talk about your advice to MSLs to help stay grounded and positive throughout uncertainty and instability? Yeah. That is an amazing question because it's just the reality. This industry is unstable, and it's a roller coaster. And, I was laid off early in my career a couple times, and then I moved to a company where I'm like, oh, this will be stable. And then, like, a month later, there were layoffs. So it just it's just part of the industry we are in.
I think the first thing I would say from an advice perspective is that you do the best job while you're at the institution you're at, and you kind of ignore all the stuff, the noise that's happening, and you stay grounded as to what your role is, which is to engage and provide information, whether that's positive information, negative information, seeking advice, whatever it is that your role is, always find what that is that you the value you
can bring back to the organization and continue to engage and provide that information one you know, in in the two way street. So that's the most important thing is just keep your head down in the sense of do your job and do it well. I, I think the other thing is that experience that you gain wherever you're at will build on itself for the next, whatever that next may be.
And so if you're impacted by all sorts of reasons of why you would be impacted and and a lot of it in the small company has to do with the the data didn't read out or the the product didn't go as expected or the company doesn't have the funding or even large companies. You think, you know, there's 1 or more stable than the other. The large companies still have restructuring and changes and and refocusing from one area to another.
So I think this industry as a whole continues to evolve and change. And so embracing that evolution and that change and then finding the value that you can bring based on the experience and the knowledge that you have to continue to do your job and do it well. You can't control what you can't control, so there's no point in worrying about it. It's more of take ownership of what you can do and and continue to do it well. That's such great advice.
And it's like we're kinda almost ending the way we started, which is like the whole conversation about value. If you're valuable and if you do a really good job, you're helping yourself and your stability and the way you're perceived and you're standing out and you're being visible. So we're kinda ending with the be you know, the way we began. What what's your feeling on 2024? Optimistic? Feel really good about it? Put 2023 behind us, and you said rose colored glasses. What are you thinking?
Yeah. I'm gonna keep them on and say it's gonna be a good year. I think there's a lot to look forward to. I think things are starting to stabilize in a sense from a biotech as a whole. There's Yeah. Some really exciting things that are happening. And so, I think it's gonna be a good year.
I think keeping abreast of what's going on, what areas are continuing to grow and become more important, how they're changing the standard of care, see what things are starting to get become extinct and maybe not as relevant, and and just, you know, own understanding our industry and and take it upon yourself to learn and grow beyond your product, your therapeutic area, your company. Definitely invest in all of those, but think of it a little bit broader as your your industry.
What else is happening? What is interesting? What's going on? So you can be a little bit broader in in your approach that sign that business acumen, if you will, I think is an important component to invest in as an MSL. You're awesome, Eleonora. That was great. I really appreciate all your insights, and I knew this was gonna be good, and it was really, really good. So thank you for coming on. Thank you for joining us. And thank you guys as always for supporting this show.
If you like this, please share it with your with your friends. And, Eleanor, you have to come back. We'll do this again. That would be great. Thank you for having me. This has been fun. Awesome. Alright, guys. Have an awesome New Year. Good luck with everything. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.