Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guests today are Michael Parisi and Marissa Polly of GuideMark Health. And we talk about MSL training, the path to learning and development. And don't forget, please follow us on YouTube and Instagram. And thanks for joining us. Hope you guys enjoy it. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL's and all things field medical. Hey, guys. Thanks for joining me today.
I am with my buddies from GuideMark Health, Michael and Marissa. How are you guys doing? Doing great, Tom. Good to see you, buddy. Tom, how are you? I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm really excited to have you guys on the podcast. Full disclosure. So last night, I told my wife that Michael was gonna be on the podcast. And she said to me, she said, well, how are you gonna do this? She's like, are are you gonna, like, just be professional and just kinda pretend you guys don't know each other?
And here's the thing about this podcast. There's no pretending. It's real reality TV. What you see is what you get. So for everybody listening, Michael and I are very, very, very close friends. We grew up together. We're it's more family. You know, when you start to vacation together and celebrate holidays together, it's family. So that's us. So you guys get an inside look into my life with with a very close friend of mine, Michael Parisi. Excellent. Well, thank you.
I'm getting invited next time, right, since I'm the only outsider? You're in now. You're in, Marissa, whether you like it or not. And she'll bring it. Noisy Nora, her 6 month old, you'll hear probably shortly. Tom, good to be here. Thanks for having us. Yep. I'm looking forward to it. So why don't we start with introductions? Marissa, why don't you go first? Just tell everybody who you are and what you do at Guidemark. Absolutely. Thanks, Tom. Marissa Folai.
I, am our subject matter expert in training and learning. I've spent my whole career in the space, not just in scientific and sales training, but also in patient education, health care provider, sort of centered around the technology health care and education space. So thrilled to be here and and keep chatting, and I represent that subject matter expertise that GuideMark along with running our operations. Cool. Alright. So, Michael. You're up. Yes, sir. Yeah. So, Tom, great to be here.
CEO of GuideMark Health, but, have spent my entire career in oncology and rare disease. Also a patient advocate, get very involved in patient communities. And, you know, really, you've been talking MSLs before it was a trend or it was popular. And, I've had the fortune of interacting with a lot of clinical people, real experts in many, many fields over the years, And I'm excited to see what you're building here because the MSL community has never been bigger.
There's never been more opportunity for career growth and for training. And especially in our area where we focus rare disease and oncology, there's just been an explosion of new companies, new compounds, new science, which is a just a great opportunity for people to really think about, MSL as a career. You know, it's so true. There's never been a better time to be in medical affairs. So and I feel like everybody's excited.
Anybody that's involved that whether you're currently in MSL, you've been in MSL for a long time, you're an MSL leader, or you're looking to break into the industry. It's just a really exciting time to be in medical affairs. So let's talk about training. And I know that just in preparation for this conversation, we were talking about kinda how training can be broken down into different areas.
So what I wanted to start with was really the kinda core competency training as it might relate to scientific and clinical. So what are you guys seeing from your clients as far as request for how to go about this scientific and clinical training piece? Yeah. It's a it's a great question, and, you know, we we have to think about the last year.
And, unfortunately, working remotely has done away with kind of the hands on training that, you know, individuals receive both at academic centers, with some of their customers. All of that's kind of been put on hold. So it's really been forcing the learners to do a lot of self guided and self directed learning. The companies are providing a lot of scientific information. We've been getting a lot of requests for refresh.
So I think especially last year when there was a bit of a time out and field based people got put, basically on hold from going to see customers live, it was kind of this rebirth of training, which was great. And it was the stuff that we never have time to do that you go back and perhaps you dig a little deeper into the science. You dig deeper into the therapeutic area, and do more refresher training. So good good time for that, I think last year. Yeah. And, Marissa, what about you?
Like, what are you seeing from your side? Yeah. I think, as Michael said, certainly using this remote time to deepen some of these topical areas, and also think about how to complement them. I know we're gonna talk a little bit more, about soft skills and some other areas, but I think this remote time was really an opportunity to dive in a little deeper and, you know, expand some understanding and skills in these areas.
It's also required a lot of the learners, and I think an MSL just naturally in particular is an information seeker anyway, but it certainly has required learners, I think, to go beyond just what they're being given from their and out some of that training on their own and some of that additional knowledge building, that can help sort of round out their a lot of they're sitting the time just to have things.
Yeah. Yeah. So looking at I mean, and and I hear a lot about what has transpired during COVID and how we've been in this situation where everybody had to reset. We have time to work on skills and training and and and and that sort of thing. Now what happens next? So as we start to pull out of this, what do you think happens next? And what do you think the unmet needs are gonna be? And how do how do the training needs change as we start to evolve into the the next phase?
Yeah. I think I think that reentry as a topic is Michael and I talk about this a lot, is something that we haven't actually heard a lot of folks bring up yet, but it's going to be something that we feel is is gonna be a need. It's not, a natural discussion that anyone has had to have before. So what has this remote situation looked like, and then what does it mean to reenter these offices? What does it mean to sort of come out of our homes?
And for our sales teams, what does it mean to go back into health care settings that have been so restricted? So, you know, having some discussions about that, and resetting some of those boundaries, we think will be a topic that comes up. Yeah. And we're through go ahead, Michael. I'm sorry. No. I toe totally agree. And I think it's it's like, you know, you have to put on shoes again and learn how to walk again a bit.
So really thinking about, to Marissa's point, we we call it reentry skills and really thinking about building those relationships, getting back into some sense of normal in terms of a rhythm, And that will lead to other things like time management, follow-up, you know, all of the the other skills that kind of round out your your toolbox, if you will. And we really have to think carefully about it. I think everyone's been trying to pinpoint a a date in time.
And I'm not sure we'll be able to do that this year. So we do have to think about it and think about it as a continuum and and put, you know, some some real concrete skill training and enhancement in place. And then when people are ready to activate, yeah, activate. But we really have to start to think about, building a and companies have to think about building this into their training curriculum. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. It's I think it's a huge piece of it, and I think it's mandatory.
I think there's no choice. Everybody this is this is field survival 101. Yep. So maybe that's the training. Maybe the training is, okay, field survival reentry. Yep. You know, that sort of thing. Because I think that it's, you know, like anything else, when you're doing something long enough and you get used to and I hate to say new normal, but for lack of a better expression, you get used to doing something in a certain way.
Now you have to succeed, evolve, and find a whole another way of doing it. Have you guys come up with or have you heard of any creative ways that companies are, arming their field medical teams in, gaining more face time or you know, being able to develop closer relationships, you know, during this this COVID phase?
Yeah, Tom. It's a it's a great question because I think it was, it's challenging, especially for a new MSL who could be with a first to market product, new company, and you're creating new relationships literally remotely and from scratch.
So there have been a number of ideas that we've talked to and proposed to clients and are under consideration, which include, you know, different ways to engage customers across the board, total office from the front desk all the way through in a remote environment. And then what does that look like from day 1? But but probably most interesting thing I I heard was it's kind of a combination of empathy and disease state education.
And, they this one company built a training program in lung cancer around a letter that a patient wrote to a doctor. And this doctor is a very, very well known lung cancer treater, and he read this letter. And it was under the context of COVID and this lung cancer patient saying, now the rest of the world knows what it's like to live with lung cancer.
And he used this to actually to train his, his fellows, and they ultimately ended up turning it into some sensitivity and empathy training for the MSL and the medical staff when they do actually start to engage in conversation, understand what's on the physician's mind and what they're hearing from the people that they're treating every day. So this was one that I thought really could create a very interesting on ramp and a and a entry point, for a company that's new to market. Just one Awesome.
Yeah. And, Marissa, so, Michael, we I guess, we're gonna this is a perfect transition into the the really kind of the next section, which is, about soft skills training. And I think this is so important as Mhmm. Whether COVID, pre COVID, post COVID, this is a huge piece of the importance of of, you know, what's important for a successful MSL is you have to have really good soft skills and emotional intelligence. Michael brought up empathy training.
Is that something that you you guys do and and talk about that a little bit more and how that works and what takeaways people can, you know, kinda glean from from, from that concept. Yep. Yeah. So, Tom, it's a one one great example. We work in a rare disease state, and the audience we call on are critical care pulmonologists. So think about who's been the front line of the whole COVID pandemic.
So, you know, really thinking about the exhaustion, the physical intensity that these this specialty in particular has been under for the last year. So, you know, as a starting point, it's just to really put yourself in that customer seat before you start to talk about your product or your services. It's, understand the situation.
If you're calling in critical care in New York City last, you know, March, April, May, June, really have to think about what the best point of entry is and really think about how to build trust, how to build credibility, how to build a relationship. Because this is a long term, relationship, and it it's not always just about that moment in time. So we've actually built some some really good active listening.
We're integrating, some training with patient advocacy, so bringing the voice of the patient and the communities forward into medical training, which is always important and sometimes gets forgotten, unfortunately. And, you know, really looking to be creative to kind of enhance the skill sets of the metaverse community as they think about, you know, going back out into the marketplace. Awesome. Good stuff. Yeah. Tom, I was just gonna add, to what Michael was saying.
In terms of you know, it's not just empathy for the customers themselves, but, sort of where he was going down that path around patient empathy as well and creating that as your common ground with your customer. I think that, you know, MSLs are are best poised even to do that given the most of their backgrounds. You know, many of them we know come from, clinical settings themselves, and I think they already have a a natural, proclivity towards understanding the patient experience.
And so anything we can do to help our clients with what that brand patient experience is meant to look like, you know, telling the line, obviously, not from a promotional standpoint. But, you know, as Michael said, we're doing it a lot in patient advocacy and really looking at the patient journey and the patient experience from the ground up, have the patients tell us, and have it be very community born.
And I think that's an area where, you know, MSL can really latch on to and, and take a really active role in helping then their customers sort of get to that conversation using, you know, patient insights as their foundation. It's so important, and it's so it's funny.
Like, this this is one of the probably the crux of of when we talk about empathy and we talk about emotional intelligence, if you take the approach of keeping your your customer's needs, the KOL needs in mind, and the patient needs in mind, there's no better way to enter into that scenario because that's what this whole thing is about. It's about taking care of our KOLs, but who are taking care of the patients. Right.
So if you look at it from that lens or those two lenses, I think it really kinda guides your efforts. Am I am I oversimplifying this, or is that basically what it boils down to? No. Absolutely accurate. And, you know, look. It's it's, understanding the patients that they treat, the diseases that they treat, how it's impacting, you know, how they're delivering care. I mean, the the whole model has been disrupted.
So, you know, thinking about what they're going through, the tele, telehealth visits and and how they're there's challenges, but there's also a lot more flexibility in in seeing patients and the types of visits they can have. We're actually doing some physician training on how to have a good telehealth visit and how a patient can feel more engaged without actually seeing you live and not feeling rushed.
It's an exciting area, but, again, it's just in the context of that physician's day to day, what are they dealing with? You know, trying to understand what exactly they're dealing with. Right. Yep. Yep. I'll tell you, it's such an interesting time. It is. There's so much going on. You know? Yep. But so we so we start with and we mentioned that there's 3 different types of MSL training that we're gonna break down. There's a lot of different types of training.
But so when we break it down, there's scientific and clinical, there's soft skills, and then there's operational. So, Marissa, let's talk about the operational training needs and trends that you're seeing for MSLs.
Sure. You know, this is a a topic that we talk about a lot, not just specific to to MSLs, but, you know, even in our our own world and as we get on different Zoom calls and thinking about, you know, what are what are some of the key factors that we need to take into account when we're hopping into these virtual worlds. So what kind of preparation, what kind of logistical components? You know? Does my audio and video and my lighting work?
You know, some of the things that I don't think necessarily are top of mind or come as naturally to, you know, folks in the sales world because they are so used to person to person contact and being in touch with their customers.
And so, you know, helping them sort of understand what is my immediate checklist of logistical components and operational elements that I need to be considered of, That's something that, you know, we've helped, quite a few of our clients with over the last year, just sort of giving them that cheat sheet so that it doesn't become a burdensome area of their business and they can go back to focusing on KOLs and patients.
So that's something that we've definitely seen, continue even throughout the the course of the year. You know, you think people are getting better at it, but it's something that I think they need to be reminded of. Totally. Yeah. So we we we have the term field survival skills and field survival training, but there's a better term, which is territory excellence. So when I hear about operational training, I feel like that's what the operational training encompasses.
What things can you do to bring excellence into your territory and to make sure that your territory management skills are on par with what a top performer would be? I mean, does that make sense? Yep. Yeah. For sure. And, you know, Tom, one other thing. I I was talking to a few MSLs and just asking, you know, what are some of the challenges that you're having?
One thing that came up and none of us are really trained on this, but, you know, how do you capture someone's attention in an email where you're trying, you know, maybe a new company or maybe you have new information or you could be a new MSL in the area, but in a virtual environment, what are you doing to understand that person's background and your skill sets and the value you bring to that practice to capture their attention very quickly?
And, you know, learning how to craft a really well written, attention grabbing email to get more time and really, you know, step into a a relationship, that's something that, definitely can be enhanced in terms of soft or operational skill training. And time management, that takes time. It takes thinking time. How do you factor that into your day or night? When's the best time for you to really get those types of of communications out to your customer?
Sure. Yeah. Emails, it's evolved as this tremendously important mode of communication for MSLs. Some companies won't really do not allow a lot of email communication for compliant reasons. Some companies are, you know, full speed ahead Yep. And they encourage it. So it really depends on the organization.
But I think the MSL Society did a study recently that of KOLs that had said and I don't know the exact percentage, but it was a huge percentage said that their preferred method of communication was email. Yeah. So it's it's definitely a I don't I'm not gonna say a paradigm shift, but we've certainly seen a a change since COVID in that communication.
And I think some of it and I just, interviewed a KOL for a different project, and he said the part he misses most is from the medical congresses, is those collaborative conversations that just happen. Mhmm. Unplanned meetups, the, hey. Let's grab coffee, and we'll talk about clinical study or whatever the topic is. But that's it's now we're in the 2nd year of no live medical congresses. So, you know, that has to be replaced somehow. Yeah. For sure. I can't wait to get back out there.
I can't wait. I haven't seen Chicago in 2 years, and and you're good. You know? We it'll it'll happen. It'll happen. So there's another piece. You guys mentioned a concept, which is, which I thought was interesting as we talked about 3 different areas of MSL training, and then the 4th was this career on ramp training. So tell me about that because I'm really eager to to hear about what you mean by career on ramp training.
So, Tom, it's if you go back to just the beginning and really think about the explosion of new companies, new products, and technology, precision medicine, the talent pool for MSLs is getting wider and deeper. But with that, you know, coming someone who's coming out of a 20 year, very successful academic medicine or research background and steps into a pharma biotech company, there's little to no training of of that bridge.
And I know this from even physicians and KOLs that have left very, very tenured senior positions in academia and crossed over to the pharma side. You know, what to expect, the types of things that you need to do differently on a pharma biotech side versus when you were in practice or coming right out of out of school, PhD, you know, thesis, Pharm d programs, nurse practitioner programs. There's there's not a bridge of what to expect.
And this is where and, Marissa, we should take this on and actually create a training program pro bono and just, you know, make it available to folks who are interested. Because I do think it's important for networking purposes, talk to someone who's done it, you know, ask them what I should be on the lookout for, what can I do from leaving or bringing my experience from the past forward into my new position, but what do I also need to do to think differently about this new position?
There there's a lot of really interesting, you know, things that individuals can do on their own, but many say that they never knew that part of industry even existed, and they kind of found their way into a position. And we as an industry have to do a better job of outreach and recruitment and making folks aware of these positions while they're in training or, you know, even while they're in academia. That's such a good point.
I mean, I I this podcast has developed a, a huge following of folks that are it's really become kind of a career development tool for a lot of folks, and I'm I'm proud of that. As as a recruiter, I'm proud of that. But I have to tell you, Michael, like, it it really is a there is a gap. There is a need. There's a huge training need.
And I think that the good news is there are a lot of resources out there now in the sense that there's webinars and podcasts and, there's folks like, you know, companies like you guys that that provide this sort of training, but there's a huge need. Marissa, are you seeing the same thing? I'd love to hear from you as to where what you are seeing in this career ramp onboarding type of of need.
Absolutely. I think, just, Tom, giving it its due time and making it a component of training is the first step. So, you know, we're we definitely are seeing some of our clients at least enter into the conversation and say, you know, when they are especially when they are a first to to market, it's their first to market product and they are bringing on a new team in particular. I think they are being more creative with the makeup of their teams, both MSL and sales for that matter.
And so they are you know, they want really good talent, but they they don't wanna sacrifice what they know is are some of the guidelines of the industry that we all work in. So how do we help them how do we help those folks onboard and understand the parameters of their role while not losing, you know, some of the uniqueness and that expertise that they're able to bring? So and doing that, you know, for the last year in a virtual world. So, you know, all of those factors together.
But I think, you know, just giving it its time and presence within a curriculum is is certainly the first step. And then what can we do to help sort of put them, you know, back to the empathy piece? There is a little bit of of that that goes into it as well because you're asking them to transition from a former role into now, you know, one that is is sort of supported by a pharma or a biotech company, which is a a different lens for them.
So how do we sort of empathize with them, and and put them in new shoes? Yeah. Awesome. And listen. If you guys come up with materials, like you said, Michael, if you guys put together some kind of training, like, you know, module or some kind of pro bono stuff, let me know. I'm happy to get that out to, to my listeners in in some way, shape, or form, or do we could do a webinar on it. Maybe we could do it together. So these are just great ideas.
I feel like this this is where we all have to kinda pull together. Yep. I think it's an awesome idea. And, Tom, I would say, I know you have a a huge following and and some folks that are considering, you know, Med Affairs as a as a career. If anyone, listening has ideas or things they would like to know, send it send it to Tom and and we'll, you know, think about how best to create a training program. But count count us in.
We we should definitely do this, and I think it's definitely a good time to do it. And, it's needed, so we're happy to do our part. Awesome. Good stuff, guys. Appreciate you coming on. This was awesome. You guys are the best, and, we should do it again. Let's let's keep this ball rolling. I I love this topic of training. I think it's it's an ongoing and much needed area of focus. Thank you guys for what you do, and, and thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us, Tom, and, see you soon. Alright.
Thanks, guys. Thank you. K. Alright. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.