Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast and this special Thanksgiving episode. It's with Arthur Chan, special guest who is currently the vice president of medical affairs at Tarsus Pharmaceuticals. Arthur is awesome. We go over the year in review and talk about our favorite episodes and highlights from the podcast this year. I hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and Instagram and TikTok now, and don't forget to check us out on the LinkedIn live platform.
We do MSL talk live the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. And very special happy Thanksgiving to you all. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL and all things field medical. Hey there, Arthur. Thanks for joining me, my friend. How are you doing? Good, Tom. Thanks for having me on the podcast. Man, it's been a while since we talked about getting together and doing this. So I'm just grateful in the spirit of Thanksgiving.
You know, thanks for having me on MSL Talk today. Listen, folks. First of all, I know Arthur for a very long time. We've been trying to do this for a long, long time. So I'm I'm like a little kid, you know, heading into a candy store right now because I got my boy here, and this is gonna be epic. So we are going to we're actually gonna break down some of our favorite episodes from this past year in again, Arthur mentioned Thanksgiving. This is gonna be the Thanksgiving episode.
I'm certainly grateful for the opportunity to do this and to have people like Arthur on. He has been so gracious as to come up with this idea, and we're gonna talk about some of our favorite episodes. So I'm gonna start by letting Arthur introduce himself. So, yeah, dude, I can't believe, like, November is half over already. Right? So Oh my god. It's crazy. Probably I know. Almost Thanksgiving. Probably too late for me to start that no shave November thing. Never went to that contest.
But I'm actually, an engineer by training, so I'm the odd duck in the pharma world. But, I got my mechanical engineering degree at the University of Alberta. I'm Canadian, and then went to University of Washington for my biomedical engineering degree. And And I started my career actually with an Israeli startup company, that commercialized the technology similar to what I worked on in grad school, and we were zapping uterine fibroids with ultrasound waves. Right?
So, like, truly noninvasive surgery, and that was, like, really fascinating and got to go to Israel and just the smartest people I got to work with to develop this device to bring it to market, FDA approval. It was awesome. But then I wanted to explore pharma, and made my way from, like, the uterus to the eyes, kinda, like, moving up. Right? So made my way to eye care, and worked on various pharma products and medical devices.
And I'm currently the VP of medical affairs at Tarsus Pharmaceuticals, and we're a California based, biotech company, really rooted in science and innovation seeking to develop products that serve unmet needs in eye care. And we're hoping to launch our first product next year. And so, you know, super exciting and super busy time for us, you know, building teams. And that's really what I'm passionate about. Right?
Building teams and, building diverse teams and and, you know, really focusing on diversity of thought, diversity of experience. And I think we're we're accomplishing that by the people that we brought in so far and also giving back to the medical affairs community, right, through mentoring and helping others grow their careers. And that's what I truly love about what you're doing. Right? Your podcast.
You know, so many people have said to me in their interview process, I've learned so much from Tom and his MSL Talk podcast. So, yeah, it's a truly, an honor to be here in in in the spirit of Thanksgiving. Thanks again, Tom, for having me on today. Well, listen. I am I'm grateful for you. We've been friends a long time, and this is gonna be an an awesome, awesome episode. And, hey, real quick. Before we get started, I wanna give a shout out to our listeners in Saudi Arabia.
So we I I every once in a while, like, I'll check the rankings, man. We have been really high in the rankings in Saudi Arabia for the last couple of weeks. So thank you guys out there for listening. Really appreciate you. That's one place I haven't been to yet. Maybe one of these days, we'll have to go and do a live episode then. Do a live episode, man. We got a definitely good fan base there. So, alright, Arthur. So you came up with this idea. You you listen to a lot of the episodes.
So let's jump into it. Like, what do you wanna start with? What episode, you know, do you wanna talk about first? Well, you you know, like, what better way to wrap up the year than some of our our, you know, memorable and favorites and and just, you know, episodes that made a difference in a lot of people's careers. Right? Mhmm. And I think, you know, I just hired a team here at Tarsus, and it's actually the industry's very first all optometry field team, you know, being an eye care.
And we really wanted to bring on people, that could truly be empathetic to the clinicians that we're serving. Right? And who better to be empathetic to our KOLs than those who have been in their shoes to understand the nuances of clinical practice and have, you know, diagnosed and been with patients. Right? So, you know, one of the episodes that resonated with me was the one that Dawn O'Reilly did, and it was like episode 88 where she was talking about why clinicians make great MSLs.
Yeah. Right? And and not only that, but 88 is like a lucky number in Chinese culture. Right? So I gotta call that one. But, you know, Tom, I think a lot of clinicians are thinking of, you know, changing, their career path from from being in clinical practice to joining industry. Right? They're thinking, like, what more can I do? And I think that's how Dawn started this episode. Right? People are looking for more schedule flexibility and autonomy in managing their their schedules at Workday.
And so this MSL role actually is a is a great fit for many clinicians. Yeah. And and we're always looking for people who are not running away from clinic, obviously, but running towards, the opportunity. I think when you're in industry, you have that ability to make an even bigger impact. Right? Not just help one patient at a time, but like a a lot of patients in developing drugs and whatnot.
But, you know, the nice thing about this podcast is it also addresses the fact that leaving clinical practice and what you're used to can be really, like, terrifying. Right? Change is not easy. It's often not easy to leave the patients who count on you and who you love working with. Right? So it's really nice to have, like, an online community of peers to kind of bounce those ideas off of and hear other people's experiences and how they transition into industry.
So I thought she did a really great job in in pointing those out. And maybe we could talk about some of the tips that she had. Well, she so one of the things I loved about that episode with Dawn is, first of all, it it was her idea. She came up with it. I got such a great response from it. So the people it really resonated with all the clinicians out there, but she also told her story. So it wasn't just her tips. It was also her transition, her career transition story.
And she did a great job in in talking about that. But, yeah, there were definitely a lot of tips. Yeah. It was her personal journey and and just, you know, how she was able to, base these tips on her journey, you know, doing the research on the lingo, knowing what it takes and what resources are available and really being resourceful and being online to to learn from others who have done this. Right?
And that networking piece, I think networking is gonna be a theme that we'll talk a lot about today. But is being on LinkedIn and understanding, you know, how to navigate LinkedIn community to reach out to people that could help her understand a little bit more about the role, to give her the confidence to do that, and not settling. Right? Just being patient and and letting things happen for a reason because I am a big believer in faith and serendipity and just everything happens for a reason.
And if the right opportunity comes along and it was meant for you, it'll happen. Right? And so just really, you know, letting, fate take its course and and being patient and, you know, you're used to working with a lot of patients. Now it's your turn to to be patient to wait for that right opportunity. So I think clinicians make great MSLs. We're certainly grateful to have many on our own team.
And I think for a lot of clinicians who are interested in making the move into this career space, it's a great one to listen to. Check it out. Episode 88. Alright. We're gonna jump into another topic that is good for, really, for anyone that's looking to break into the MSL role, anybody that's currently in MSL. But episode number 102, which is with Josh Yoder and Kendra Peltz, these are 2 of my favorite people. This is These are my favorite 2 great people for sure. Great.
Like, amazing, amazing people. Just so grateful that they came on, and they crushed this episode. So, Arthur, why don't you tell everybody what this was about? Yeah. I think that the main takeaway from this presentation and how to prepare for an MSL interview and, like, nail that interview step and the the, process, you know, for for the presentation part is to treat this interview presentation like you're presenting to a KOL. Right?
Yep. After all, isn't that what the hiring manager wants to see? They wanna know if they can trust this individual who's interviewing for their job to represent the company, right, in front of the most important customer. So this episode was all about how do you create a presentation like you're presenting to a KOL. Right? And so I I love the fact that they talk about, you know, the storytelling piece. Right?
It's important that the art of the MSL is exhibited when somebody is doing interview presentations. Right? So you gotta know how to pull out, like, certain data points that matter. It's not going to be a data dump, but you also have to curate those data points to the person you're speaking with to make it matter to them. So, you know, the audience isn't going to remember numbers they were saying, but they're going to remember that personal impact that you're going to have on them. Right?
So that's why storytelling is so important. And I think, you know, to your earlier point about telling a personal story, you know, if you're a clinician discussing your clinical experience and and just how you came along this journey will resonate because people really like those stories. And don't forget to finish strong. Right? You got it tied up in the end. Why should the audience care? Right?
And I think, you know, to to Simon Sinek's, you know, book starting with the why is important, But at the end, you gotta remind people of the why, right, to wrap it all up. And and I think those who prepare well for these presentations, that preparedness will shine through. And when a hiring manager sees someone has done their homework and has prepared for these presentations, you know, they know that if they're doing this at the interview, they're definitely going to do this at work as well.
Right? So this planning and preparation is super important, fosters trust in how they're going to represent and serve customers well. And, you know, if I can add one point personally, I I think for me, it's to make these presentations memorable. Right? It's going to be, you know, 40 candidates that you're interviewing, maybe 6 will get to do presentations, and you're gonna pick 2. Right? Mhmm. How do you stand out from everybody else?
And so for me, you know, one of the more recent memorable presentations that that we had was a candidate that we actually hired, and she actually involved, like, interactive gamification in the, presentation. Right? It was engaging. It was fun and made me wish, like, we allocated more time to this presentation, but that that's what stuck out. Right? So memorability, I think, is really, really important.
Yeah. And Kendra actually talked about her actual presentation that she did for her interview with Josh. So again, this there was this real life example of what she did to be successful. He weighed in on what he liked about it. So that's one of the things that resonated with me about that episode. And by the way, guys, these like, the reason we're part of the reason we're picking these episodes is because these are some of the most watched listened to.
Like, the numbers are, like, staggering on on these these episodes. So that one's a good one. Yeah. Super fun to see both Josh and Kendra and their interaction play out and the fact that they actually work with each other now because of the strong presentation that she did. Right? So it's a true success story. Yeah. And I would be remiss if I don't say that one of my first earliest episodes was with Kathy Gann, where she talked about how to prepare for a presentation for an MSL interview.
So we've had a couple of episodes on that on that theme. That was like in the first like 10 or 15 episodes. But listen, staying on the interview theme, we're gonna talk about an episode with Charlie Cook. I believe it was episode number 94. And this one was about what questions to ask hiring managers on an interview. So what did you think of this one? Only you would remember the numbers for every episode. You've done how many of these now? Like, a 127 are in casting or something?
This is 129, I think. Wow. Lucky 129. So, yeah, Charlie is a great guy, and and, you know, he did a great job helping people prep for interviews. Right? Because part of the interview is always that, moment where the hiring manager or whoever you're interviewing with will ask, hey. Do you have any questions for me? Right? And it's yeah. You you wanna give people the time to ask their questions, but also, you know, from the hiring manager's perspective, it's a little bit of a test as well. Right?
So Sure. Hiring managers wanna know that people are curious. You know, I'm big on curiosity. I mean, having worked at Novartis, you know, curiosity is a big theme for that company and many other companies as well. Right? So I think showing interest, having curiosity, and being prepared, that intellectual curiosity piece is like a game changer and a winner for me. Right?
So, you know, you gotta ask about culture because I think culture is so important to to realize whether it's a good fit for both the candidate and for the company. Right? It's gotta work both ways. So if a candidate is curious about, like, core values of a company, then it shows that core values are important for that candidate. Right? And I love how Charlie called it out. Right? And it's important for hiring managers to see that.
And then to also tailor specific questions, right, to the interviewer. Right? So you're not gonna use the same questions for every single person, but rather, if you're talking to a regulatory person, if you're talking to a head of marketing, if you're talking to a head of medical affairs or medical communications person, what are some questions that you can carve out? Because you're gonna know who you're interviewing with beforehand. Right?
So you can go on LinkedIn and you can stalk them and see, like, what are some questions you wanna ask these people? It shows that you're fascinated with what the interviewer's colleagues have had to share if you can have recollections of those conversations. Right? And that shows that you're curious to learn more. And I also think that, you know, it's so important, and Charlie called this out, to turn questions into, like, conversation and dialogue. Right?
Not just like the checklist or that fact that you're, like, you're you're rambling on about, like, you know, questions, like going off a checklist, but you wanna engage in the conversations. And just like the presentations we talked about, with Josh and and, Kendra, to to make it really memorable. Right? So, you want these questions to be like, wow. That person asked a really good question. That that's a good candidate. Right?
And And I think questions that show your interest in working as a team, your leadership skills, and maybe even asking hiring managers that you wanna work with, like what's your leadership skill, not what your leadership skills are like, but like what's your leadership style like? Right? How do your team members describe you? Right? Because if it if you show an interest in that person's style, it shows that you're you're wanting to know if it matches yours. Right?
So and then, you know, the the last thing that, you know, Charlie called out was just to be aware of time, listen for verbal clues. Right? Like the hiring manager is always thinking, you know, would I again, would I put this person in front of our hardest customer? And and how you ask questions and engage in dialogue will really show whether or not they can trust you in doing that.
So I think this was a really good episode to prepare for how do you ask questions during the interview, how do you do it effectively, and in the best interest of, you know, your potential, you know, next step in your career, but also in the best interest of the, interviewer's time as well. Yeah. And, you know, I'll tell you you bring up a good point.
If you're getting ready to interview, that's an episode you really need to listen to because Charlie gives you really good ideas of how to formulate questions and what like you just said, but how to formulate the questions about what topics. He doesn't necessarily give you the specific questions per se. Right. But he gives you the concepts that you need to inquire need to inquire about. Like, you mentioned culture and core values.
And I think he even mentioned something about how important it is for MSLs to understand the inner workings of, you know, how you have to work with other folks within the organization. Like, what is the relationship? Can you talk to talk a little bit about the relationship with your commercial counterparts? Right. Shows that you're really thinking strategically about your role within the organization and how you're gonna interact and be a team player and that sort of thing.
So I really thought that was a collaboration, whether you're a team player is something that certainly did before. Yeah. Totally. So another another episode that really resonated with me for a lot of reasons was Paul Ward came to me and said, I have an idea. Just out of the blue, Tom, I have an idea for a podcast. You should do something on skip level meetings. Arthur didn't even know what it was. I was like, you had me at hello.
Let's do it because I don't really even know what a skip level meeting is. Level meetings is like a podcast, and that never became a thing until Paul Ward waited the thing. Right? But it's so important. Right? Because, I mean, leaders have skipped level meetings all the time, but nobody really talks about, like, how do we optimize those settings? Because there's so much that can come out of these meetings. Yeah. Yeah. So it's episode number 118, and you should definitely check it out.
Not just if you're a leader that is looking for strategic ideas, but if you're an MSL and you're on a team, you may be asked to be a part of the skip level meetings. So you're gonna actually have meetings with not your direct manager one level above. Again, skipping a level to your that person's supervisor. What does it mean for you? How do you handle that? Yeah. This was super timely. I just had, you know, my my month skip level meetings, today and tomorrow. Right? So I was like, hey.
This is perfect timing to to kinda review what Paul had to say here. And then Paul Paul offers, like you were saying, great perspectives from both the leadership and the MSL perspective. And, you know, he's a great leader. Right? I think he was, like, one of your first guests in the podcast. Yeah. He was. Yeah. Right. Talking about how we serve our KOLs during the pandemic. And so he's, like, not only a great leader, but he's actually in the trenches with the MSLs, and he's been there.
But, man, we've come a long way from the pandemic. Right? And and so it's it's amazing how much and how far we've come and emerged since 2020. Just grateful for that too. But in this episode, Paul starts with, like, the the idea of empathy and the importance of listening. Right? And I love hearing that. Like, you know, no no pun intended. Love hearing listening is important.
So people like to to feel like they're connected, and that sense of belonging is so super special important, you know, to be a part of the team. So listening and empathy is super important. People appreciate being heard. So skip meetings, I think, are an opportunity to really dive deeper, both from the MSL's perspective and understanding what's going on with the company, but also from the leader's perspective to know what's going on with their teams. Right?
Often more effective to pulse surveys or maybe even as a follow-up to some of these pulse surveys that companies are distributing to their employees. And so I I really like the fact that before having skip meetings, you know, Paul specifically called out the importance of ensuring that national directors should first align with their regional directors first, right, if there's, like, a middle level management.
Because I think, you know, you don't wanna blindside your direct reports by talking to their direct reports. But Right. It's important to include them ahead of time to kinda get the lowdown on previous conversations and, you know, how national directors may be able to reinforce specific topics that the regional directors are talking about, and also be alerted to watch out. Right?
What are some questions that this employee may have brought up in the past that you may be able to to help out with or be prepared to answer? And these skip meetings are great because it helps leaders gain an understanding of what's working, help diagnose what's needed. And I'm a big believer that, you know, the whole servant leadership idea is to have people that can remove obstacles and and work for the people. Right?
I always joke and not joke, but I'm serious about the fact that people may report to me, but I work for them. Right? So we need to understand what's going on for us to be able to better work for them and remove obstacles. And I think skip meetings also ensure that alignment with we talked about core values earlier, right, with each other.
And I think in order to ensure alignment with core values, we have to be prepared to share honestly and openly, right, what we have to say and to ensure that if there are things that are going on that may be not fully aligned with the values of an organization or a team that they get brought up in these meetings. Right? So say what's working well, but also what needs to be improved.
And these, like, after action reviews, or they're they're called, like, plus deltas as our chief medical officer calls them are are really important for, I think, our leaders to hear from their team members and just to ensure that everybody has an opportunity to chime in and contribute to shaping and improving the team. Because if people come up with ideas during these meetings, they'll own it. Right? And when people own certain things, they are accountable to them as well. Right?
So you're you're bringing the team together to create and foster more of a sense of of, ownership as well. Right? And so Yeah. Honest, open answers, ensuring confidentiality, And even for the MSLs, like, this episode is great because Paul had some great ideas in how to prepare them. Right? Prepare as if you're going into KOL interactions. You know? MSLs do things so well when it comes to the KOLs.
So for these internal type meetings, they should prepare just the same way as they're preparing for KOL interaction. Right? So Totally. The leaders are always looking for the quality of the questions, to see who the team players are. I think everyone should be a team player. And who's bringing solutions as well. Right? It's an opportunity to share ideas.
Yep. And it's finally an opportunity for the MSLs to express to whether it's their VP or national director, what their career path may look like. Right? What growth looks like. Always share growth and development ideas with your, skip level manager because, you know, you want them to be your advocate. No doubt. It gives you another opportunity to stand out.
Without those, that it's one less opportunity that you have to advocate for yourself and stand out and show, you know, how how well prepared, how you communicate, some of the great things that you're doing. But to your point, I really think that it's such a great part of establishing culture. Yes. You mentioned core values and culture. It's just, I think that in order to preserve the culture in an organization, those meetings are so important.
So we're gonna switch gears completely, and we're gonna get into a totally different area. But, episode 92 with Sarah Snyder. So you guys know Sarah, who was MSL for 20 years. I love Sarah. She's the best. She's on my team now. She's one of my top recruiters on my team. And she had this idea where she wanted to talk about, how to be successful at MSL and mom life, one of the most popular episodes, believe it or not, obviously, especially amongst our female listeners.
But what did you think of this episode, Arthur? Yeah. Mom life, dad life. I mean, just like MSL family life in general. Right? And I think this was this was a really great episode that Sarah put together because she definitely showed vulnerability and talked about her own journey in being an MSL, you know, being a mom and try to juggle both at the same time. You know, our national director actually just started her maternity leave. Super excited for for her and her growing family.
But, you know, for a lot of MSLs with with little kids being able to to and even big kids, right, being able to juggle work and home life is tricky. So I love the fact that, you know, Sarah started by talking about parenting being a a team effort. I'd be remiss if I didn't give a shout out to my wife, Austine, and we would be able to do what we do if we didn't work well as a team. Right? And so often we rely on our friends and our kids' friends' parents. It takes a village, right?
Truly a team effort. And Sarah mentioned it's important to be organized in life. Right? There's certain things that you wanna micromanage, like your your schedule, your carpool. And, you know, having gotten to know Sarah, I gotta say, she doesn't just, like, talk the talk, but when it comes to organization, she, like, walks the whole. Right? It's amazing what she can she can do. And she emphasized about, like, auditing time because time is valuable. You can't buy more time.
You can't get back time. But the rigor and being able to audit time, and to spend the most quality time with your kids, is important. Right? So in order to do that, it's okay to outsource stuff, especially the stuff that we're not really good at or don't get a lot of enjoyment out of. You know, some people love to cook, some people don't. Some people love to clean, some people don't. Some people like yard work. You know, the list goes on. Right? It's okay. We don't have to do it all.
And and so, you know, sometimes the outsourcing, even goes as far as, you know, having a nanny or a pair help with the kids so that the time you spend with them is truly the best quality time that you can have. Right? And it's okay definitely to have help so that you can do your job to the best of your ability and be the best parent you can be. And the challenge is that, you know, the MSL life is not an 8 to 5 kind of schedule. Right? So Sarah calls that out.
And so having help that, values that flexibility is crucial. Right? And to be okay with the parent being home when they have office days, but in allowing them to really focus at work and the days that they're home as well. Right? So having that flexibility and having somebody that really understands the MSL role. And I think that, means that you as a parent, as the MSL has to talk to the help that you're having to as to what your job entails and what your schedule is gonna be like. Right?
So to be able to focus on work and have peace of mind knowing that kids are well taken care of, will allow you to be the best contributor, I think, you can be at work. So, and then the other thing that resonated with me that she pointed out is that working on personal development, you know, we always want people to to develop, but some people are like, well, you know, do I focus on parenting? Do I focus on personal development? Well, you can actually do both. Right?
Because Sarah mentions that personal development and growing in the career of of the, you know, busy, you know, parent life, also helps the whole family. Right? So if the parents are able to grow their careers, it's not being selfish. If you can advance your career, it may provide your family more opportunities. You know, if you're happier with your career, I think that happiness will truly be experienced by by your family too. Right?
And and I think I really like how she talked about when you're traveling into MSL, you wanna be at your best. Right? So, like, prioritize wellness, eat well, you know, workout, exercise, go to the gym, have an accountability partner. You know, Tom, thanks for being my accountability partner. I know we've been to a few, you know, medical I always see Arthur at the gym. Always. See you at the gym as well. Right? You know, first thing in the morning.
So I've seen you at the gym more than a few times. And I just think this was a really fantastic episode because there's a lot of parents out there who are successful MSLs and medical affairs professionals. And for Sarah to have the vulnerability to share her journal and some of her tips, journal, her journey, some of her tips, was really helpful and and really meaningful. And not just for MSLs, but all moms. Right? Or maybe not even moms, but, like, all parents out there.
Yeah. It really it's it's it's such a great example of, someone that has found and I I could tell you firsthand, I've seen the success that she is and has become. She is such a hard worker. She puts so much effort into everything. She's a tremendous, tremendous employee. She's a tremendous recruiter. She's a tremendous mom. I see it like and she's a wife, the whole deal.
Like, I think that just listening to that episode to just get tips on seeing how a top performer, is able to perform her habits and rituals and things that she's that she's so consistent with. Yeah. A lot of wringer, a lot of discipline, but she does it well. Oh, man. And she has help. Right? It's not a one person show. She's got family support. Oh, yeah. She's so good. She's so good. So we're gonna actually go into another episode, which is number 122.
Another awesome, tremendous success tremendously successful woman, Bernadette Mamone. So Bridget Rasmussen on my team comes up to me at the MSL Society. She pulls me aside and she says, Tom. She's like, you have to have Bernadette on your show. And I said, okay. But, You know, like, where did this come from? She's like, I was having a conversation with her, and she she loves the show, and she's got a great idea, and you need to have her on. And that's where it started.
And Bernadette came on, and we talked about she came up with this topic, and it was what I do, how I build relationships. One of the single highest single day downloads in MSL Talk Podcast history. That's like, Taylor Swift levels with that level of download. Right? I mean, people really tuned in to this one, but, I mean, after I was Bernadette, she's amazing. Like, she's a, you know, really a contributor to MSL Society. She's, like, part of the health care businesswomen's association.
She's, like, a marathon runner. I think she does, like, a 5 k every weekend. I don't know how she does it all, but, just a great person, a great mom, great MSL. And, you know, I love how she started the podcast with just, like, wake up. We'd be present. Right? And I know she does this every day. Like, she's got a the boundless energy. And, you know, for some of us, that means hitting the gym. For her, it's like running a marathon. I don't know.
But this episode really had some great tips for relationship building. And that's so important because, you know, when we think of relationships, the first thing that comes to most MSL minds is, like, you know, how do we have this relationship with the KOL? But this is really for all relationships in life. Right? A lot of the concepts in your podcast series can really apply to a lot of life, you know, aspects, not just like MSL aspects. Right?
So and the big idea here is that you're connecting, most successfully what is outwardly focused. Right? It's about the other person. And I love the fact that she even brought up, like, influenced by inspiring others. And John Maxwell, I think, he's one of my, you know, your favorite author as well. Right? The whole idea of service, affirmation, business, authenticity, availability, you know, really, really good, you know, keywords there.
But I've always coached our field team to ensure that after a meeting, ensure that you have next one set up. Right? And in order for our medical experts to wanna meet again, I really truly agree with Bernadette that it's important to have that continuum in place for continued engagement. Like, why would that person wanna meet with you again? Right?
It's like getting that second date and third date, and you want that person to continue to to want to meet with you and having that healthy and and productive relationship would make that happen. So she also mentioned, you know, using social media to prepare for meetings. Right? Nothing's more frustrating than not being prepared for meeting, and knowing something that you probably should have known before.
So by knowing which KOLs are speaking where and where they're what they're speaking about, I think is really, really important and brilliant. Right? So it's okay to stalk people on Twitter, LinkedIn, social media in good intent, right, for enhancing relationships and having more meaningful and and intentional, conversations. And and really, like, these really great relationships, as Bernadette mentioned, come down to one thing. Right? It is the foundation of having the emotional intelligence.
And then I love how she ended the the podcast with that. And that's a perfect entree to our next episode, because the next episode is with Doug Yao on emotional intelligence. And, guys, I literally stalked Doug. Like, I know Doug a long time. He's another guy. He's part of the MSL Society. And I just grabbed him. And I was like, Doug, I gotta get you on, man. Because you are like the first founder, leader of emotional intelligence. Got to come on and talk about it.
It's such a huge and important factor for the for the success of any MSL is to really be good and have a good understanding and develop that muscle of emotional intelligence. So you have to check out episode 95. And, Arthur, I know you're a big fan of Doug's as well. Yeah. Yeah. Doug's like a brother from another mother. He's actually my my mom's half brother's goddaughter's husband, if he can draw the whole lines. Woah. He's he's actually yeah. We we met, and and we're like, hey.
Wait. You're you're at this wedding too? So, anyway, Doug Yao has to be, like, one of the most intelligently, emotionally intelligent. He's intelligent too, but most emotionally intelligent people in the world. Right? Or at least in the medical affairs world. And and Doug actually not only talks about EQ, but he actually coaches emotional intelligence. He's an EQ, emotional intelligence quote, coach. Right?
So, you know, to to quote him, you know, the the soft skills, interpersonal skills, like self awareness, and interpersonal skills, and if you add in some motivation and passion and grit, will make you really a, really emotionally intelligent person. Right? So so why is this important? It's because MSLs forge relationships, and they have to build this credibility. And they really have to connect with this person to be able to share data effectively.
Because if we're just, like, going out there, spewing a bunch of numbers and showing even really, really good data, if the person hasn't connected with you, they will not get as much out of that conversation as if they would have connected with you first. Right? So gaining influence and access has a lot to do with building these relationships, as Bernadette mentioned and Doug kind of reinforced in this episode. They need to like you. Right?
These KOLs really like to like you, and and, you know, KOLs are often busy. They're with their patients. They're with their clinics. They're short of time. And being, first of all, outwardly focused, as Bernadette mentioned, but also being aware of time and putting yourself in the clinician's shoes is really important. Right? Goes full circle. The people who are clinicians becoming MSLs understand this. Right? Who better to be more, empathetic to clinicians than other clinicians?
And so a lot of MSLs already have EQ. Right? I think there's a little bit of self selection that Doug mentioned for the job, but the baseline could be improved with practice. Right? We're all always, seeking to improve ourselves. And even people that think they're pretty emotionally intelligent, there's room for improvement. So how do we do this? Well, I think Doug gave some really good tips in this episode. You can do an assessment. There's, like, 3 60 assessments.
You can get assessments from your peers, your manager, people around you, your spouse, your friends, your family. Learn a little bit more about yourself, right, both from a in a work environment and also, a social environment. You could take a class. You can get a coach like Doug. And I think just the thought of wanting to grow in emotional intelligence is great self awareness. Right?
And, you know, let's not just talk about EQ in terms of forging strong relationship with KOLs, but this is, like, life, lessons that could be great for leading people, outside of work and for you know, within work, internal cross functional interactions. Right? Whether you're, doing something for a nonprofit organization or whether you're doing something for work or doing something as a hobby, having that strong emotional intelligence will make you a better leader all around. Right?
And we want a whole team that really elevates each other and lifts each other up. And so leaders are always looking for people who are coachable, and it's always important to ask ourselves and have that emotional intelligence about, are we coachable? And so, you know, I think a good test of that self awareness is how you handle the, you know, tell me about yourself question. Right? Going to our earlier conversations about, like, interviews, interview style.
Now I've been in interviews where the candidate takes about 20 minutes just focused on tell me about yourself even before I get in the word in. Right? So, obviously, someone not that you know, it's not some not somebody that Caroline has prepared. Right? But No. You know? Definitely. No. Right?
But I think, you know, to be emotionally intelligent is to understand, like, you know, when to speak, when to listen, and really have that self awareness that we can all improve, that we wanna grow, and focusing on that feedback to be able to do that. Right? Being able to do that and have EQ will give us the skills to to connect.
And so, you know, just to add a thought to to Doug's conversation with you, you know, from a leadership perspective, I think a lot of people think, you know, empathy and EQ, you know, while it's super, super important, a lot of leaders struggle with that. Right? Feeling that they will see that, as a sign of weakness. But in fact, I think it's quite the contrary.
I think it really strengthens that sense of belonging, which is so important, as we mentioned earlier, when we featured the skip level meetings episode and really demonstrates to your team that, you value and respect them. Right? So I think EQ really provides the compassion to to guide us towards, collaboration and cohesive solutions and really enables us to always think with positive intent, which is so important in these interpersonal relationships. So love this episode that you and Doug had.
The conversation is fitting not just for MSLs, but for anybody that wants to improve their emotional intelligence. No doubt. Got it's a must watch. You deaf or listen. You have to check it out, because he is so good. And it's such a good it's such an important factor in our lives, not just as MSLs, as, you know, professionals, but you take it into your personal life too. Yeah. As people in general, it's so important, for sure. It's so important. And it's so funny.
Arthur, you just said 2 words, positive intent. The next episode that we're gonna talk about is about positive mindset. So very recently, I met with and talked to Don Sandell, who's not a medical affairs guy. He's got nothing to do with the with MSLs at all. He is a, a personal development coach that wrote a book called positive mind shift. And we talk about that. And the title of the episode is positive mindset, positive outcomes. It was called a prophecy. Good stuff, man.
So what did you think? Yeah. So this guy was great. He gave a keynote speech at the, MSO society meeting and, you know, even got his book for the team. But, I I love how, you know, he uses science, because we're all scientists, right, to describe and recognize that we're actually preprogrammed as human beings to have negative bias. Right? That's, like, you know, unfortunate, but we need to intentionally shift this mindset.
So we as human beings and, you know, the human species, we're always looking for threats and negativity and danger. And why is that? Right? So Dawn talks about this as a key to survival. Right? Our brains are preprogrammed for survival instincts and not necessarily for positive satisfaction. So, unfortunately, because if we're preprogrammed to seek these perceived threats, we have this threats, we have this negativity bias. Right?
So we need to be intentional about pushing back because if our brain is thinking, I can learn from that, that negativity, and stores it into memory, a lot of our brain is gonna be filled with negative thoughts. Right? So, you know, I think to be able to intentionally push back and seek positive experiences to shift our mindset from one that's negative to more positive, he mentions the importance of relationships. Right?
We talk a lot about relationships in in our conversation here, Tom, and I think, you know, authentic and trusting relationships really provide positive experiences. Doesn't have to be a lot of them, but just really, really strong, authentic, trusted relationships. And I think relationships, Don mentioned predict, like, health, longevity, cognitive strength, and e even, like, long term happiness. Right?
So, you know, if there's one thing that we could do more of over the holidays is really to connect and reconnect. And, you know, I know we're all distracted with our devices and whatnot, but, you know, do something together to connect with someone. Have a genuine conversation. Share a cup of tea of or coffee. Play a game. You know? Do something that really allows you to connect, and maybe disconnect from all the the news or whatever else is going on, you know, on your phone. Right?
And so, and Don mentions that 80% of what we say to ourselves is negative because of the bias that we have. And since we have, like, 70,000 thoughts a day, that's a lot of stuff we worry about, and most of it will never happen. Almost all of it will never happen. Right? So with that negativity, I think that's where, you know, you think negative outcomes, you know, negative outcomes are are what you're thinking of. You gotta really pay attention to that self talk. Right?
Pay attention to your own thinking. And Dawn's like, if you're aware of what you're thinking to yourself, you can shift that mindset to a more positive one. So, you know, negative mindset is led by emotions, and that emotional part of the brain, doesn't have as much impulse control. But when you have a positive mindset, that's more of a, like, a rational mind. Right? I think he says so. So it comes with more impulse control. And and his book, actually, his book is a great read.
He talks about the importance of meditation, diet, sleep, and and, again, exercise comes up. Right? Sounds really basic. Right? It seems like anyone can battle that off. But, you know, with how busy MSLs and and just, like, people in life is in general, we don't often dedicate enough time to ourselves, I think, to do this. Right?
And and meditation, especially, is important to reflect and perhaps something we can all try and practice again to disconnect and gain control of our own mind during the holidays. And, really, I think that positive, shift will lead to positive impact as in in in as mentioned in this episode, and and not only at work, but at home as well. Right? And so much of it is our choice.
And by practicing these mind shifts with intention, we can actually shift our mind from that negative thought and bias to one that is is super positive. So maybe that's the challenge that we give all our our listeners, for the holidays this year. It's a great message. It's a great Thanksgiving message. It's a great holiday message.
And, I do I truly, truly believe when you have to check out that episode, because I truly believe that we have the ability to shift our mind from negativity bias to being positive and being our own self fulfilling prophecy. If you can control your self talk, you can change the direction in the future of your life. There's there's proof. There's there's studies that prove it, that show it. And Dom talks about that. I'm a huge advocate of that.
And I'm very intentional in my life, which leads to our the last thing we're gonna talk about, which is one of my favorite episodes. It's actually a solo podcast. It was just me. It's episode number 86. It's one of our most downloaded episodes. And it's about intentions. How to, how to achieve your goals is the exact title. Yeah. And, you know, they say save the best for less.
I love this episode, Tom. And even though it's a it's a solo episode, I think he provides us so such valuable perspectives and and such a broad depth of experience and breadth as well that, you know, what you were able to share with us in this episode is for anyone in any field, not just for MSLs. Right? So, yeah, perhaps we wrap it up with this one. And this was like one of the first episodes. In fact, I think you started the new year with this episode. Right?
So I think, you know, it's so fitting that was we approach Thanksgiving. It's a great time for some reflection and just to give gratitude to those who helped us achieve our goals. When you look back at everything that we've accomplished this year, Again, can't believe in the middle of November already, but just to have some reflection, give gratitude, and be intentional about that, that's great. So, you know, you mentioned about goals. Right? No perfect time to start.
If you haven't set goals yet for 2022 Do it now. Do it now. Exactly. And it's never too early to set goals either. Right? So write down your goals for 2023. Yeah. You know, I always like the the idea of SMART goals. Right? So both for professional and personal goals, you know, SMART is specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and timely or time bound or something like that. Right? So so you wanna have, like, SMART goals.
And, you know, Tom, one of my goals this year was to do a podcast together. Look at this. Sometime this year. So goal attained. Goal attained. Right? So we're taking action. Right? So so you always like you know, it's one thing to set a goal, but also to take action on it, I think is super, super important. And and to be present in the present tense. Right? We are doing this, like, together right now, we are accomplishing our goals.
So, you know, just take the next step, whatever your goals may be for the holiday season and beyond. You know, keep setting those daily intentions to set your goal. Just, you know, super super, you know, it it important. Right? And it doesn't take a lot of time. 15 minutes every morning with your own thoughts Yep. To start with a a moment of gratitude, I think, is so important. Right?
Because if you're already in that state of mind, you're grateful for something that's really good, then you've already shifted that negative bias to positive intent. You see all this tie kinda ties together. Right? And so what better time than Thanksgiving to start? Right? Put yourself in a positive state. Start with gratitude. There's so much to be thankful for. Tom, what are you most grateful for this year?
I gotta tell you, I'm so grateful for my team, my family, the people that are around me. I'm I'm so blessed to have just great people around me. People like you, Arthur, that I get to see at conferences and get to talk to and text. And, you know, you mentioned how important it was just to maybe unplug and spend time with your family over the holidays. We're I'm friends with Arthur on Facebook. I see the pictures. I see him spending time with his family. This isn't something he's just saying.
This is something that he actually lives and he does. Beautiful family, beautiful pictures. When I see it, it puts a smile on my face. And it's just a reminder of how important it is to really be present and take time and appreciate the people that are closest to you, the people that you love and make memories and make moments. And that's the thing I'm most grateful for is the people that I am blessed to be around every day, both in my professional life and in my personal life. That's awesome.
And and, you know, to to your point of of, you know, spending time with family, I I think I've traveled, like, 150 days this year. Right? And knowing that it's only gonna get busier as we approach our product launch year, I I'm certainly grateful for my wife and kids for holding down the fort and that our daughter has found a passion in pursuing her degree, pharmacy degree, actually, at Purdue. Right? So she got to meet some of my colleagues earlier this year.
Some of my work family and my family family kind of, you know, meshed together. Super special. Like, super grateful I got to see my grandma recently, my relatives. And, you know, when you're away from home so much, you have to love not only what you do, but the people that you're on this journey with. Right? So, you know, let's wrap things up.
I'm so thankful that I have an incredible team, people I can really count on, our work family that I love working with, people who are so genuine, supportive, humble, and just collaborative and cohesive. Very, very fortunate for that. And my extended work family, including our ophthalmologist and optometrist, really a privilege to learn from all of you and and and just, like, truly partner in the research and education to better serve your eye care patients. So so just grateful for that.
You know, one more shout out to my family. Wouldn't be able to do all I do without their support and encouragement and just being there, all the time for me. And, you know, you mentioned it's so important, Tom, to start celebrating your accomplishments daily, and there's definitely so much to be grateful for and to start celebrating, you know, this year, next year as we go into the holidays as well. Yep. Awesome, man. Well, listen. I have two things before I end.
I wanna thank you because you're awesome. This was great. Special double episode. I wanna wish everybody a happy Thanksgiving. And in the season of gratitude, I just wanna thank you for listening to this podcast, for making it what it is. It's a community. It's it's developed a huge community. We have over 200,000 almost 250,000 listeners in 77 countries, and I'm just grateful that I get to do this. I'm thankful that you guys have made it what it is. And I'm gonna keep going.
I'm gonna keep going, and, I'm gonna have great people like Arthur to join me. Thank you so much, Tom. Thanks for your wisdom and your expertise and always being here for the community. You're the best. Love it. Take care. Enjoy, guys. Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.