Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guests today are Michelle Mudge Riley. She is a senior MSL with CTI BioPharma. And Sarah Snyder, she's a senior executive recruiter on my team here at the Carolyn Group. And we talk about how MSL success is much like running a marathon. So 2 avid runners, 2 MSLs or former MSLs, and, one former MSL, one current MSL. But great conversation. I think you guys are really gonna like it. Don't forget to check us out on MSL talk live. Check us out on YouTube.
All the videos go up on YouTube, and don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn if you don't already. But really do appreciate you tuning in and, hope to see you soon. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Sarah and Michelle. Welcome to the podcast. How are you guys doing? Great. Thanks. Doing good. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Exciting. So, guys, I have 2 very established runners with us today.
I am the least established of this group. So, but this just so you guys know, this is a topic that came about from Michelle because she's an avid runner, and she had this idea of, hey. Why don't we talk about how MSL success is like running a marathon? Now when this whole thing came about, I was like, yeah. Let's do it. I was like, we gotta get Sarah into this because Sarah is a an avid runner. And she as you guys know, Sarah works with me, and she's, like, my partner in crime.
So I'm like, this is perfect. I think we're gonna have an awesome conversation. But before we get into it, Michelle, why don't you do a quick introduction, and then we'll have Sarah, you could do an intro. Great. Thanks, Tom. Yeah. So I am a physician by training, and I work as a senior in medical affairs. Just a little bit about my background.
I I kinda think about it in in terms of 3 different buckets here because I've done a lot in my career, and I know we're gonna get into that some, but, gosh, I could I could talk for hours, which no one wants here, about the different things that I've done. So, actually, I started off wanting to be a doctor and going to medical school and thinking I would ride off into the sunset and practice medicine for the rest of my life.
And as what happens with many of us, although I loved it and I love the patients, I ended up doing well in medical school. People liked me. I did not end up wanting to do the traditional route of practicing medicine. So what was that transition like? How do you approach that? And and that was the challenge at the time because I'm I'm a people person, and I love patients. I love the science of medicine.
And I wanted to do something bigger, something combining the business of medicine with the science of medicine and the people aspect. And so then fast forward 10 years, I ended up getting into consulting, starting some businesses, working with other physicians who were thinking about some similar things.
Because as other podcasts have talked about and you guys have talked about, physicians often experience burnout or are trying to figure out how they can have an impact as well and in a nontraditional way. So when as I was doing that, I discovered medical affairs.
And through my consulting work with large and small biotechs, both US and internationally, I realized that this whole world of cutting edge medicine where I could combine all of these things that I had had some experience in and possibly have that impact. So today, I serve as a a senior medical science liaison, and I am continuing to learn. I love, love what I do. I'm so grateful for all my experiences so far and and looking forward to the, you know, the next thing.
And, so, Sarah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your career too because it's so interesting to me what you do as well. Yeah. Thank you. No. That's wonderful to hear. So as Tom alluded to, I am an executive recruiter on his team. I previously worked in medical affairs for about 20 years. Just since we're talking about running on this podcast, though, I added up the years that I've been running, and that's actually 33 years. So even longer. I am the Tom alluded to this too.
I am the host of the running after age 40 podcast. So just a little plug for that on a personal note. And this is a topic, you know, as we dive into running, walking, it's so near and dear to my heart, and he's such a part of me personally and professionally. So I'm really excited for this entire episode. Yeah. Well, let's jump into it.
And I think as we I think before we kinda get into the the the parallel between MSO world and and running, Can you guys tell us a little bit about, like, your fitness journey and your fitness background and your lifestyle and how much you run and how you got into running? And, you know, I mean, maybe, you know, again, Michelle, you go first and then Sarah. Just kinda curious as to, that piece of it and how avid you are, so that people get an understanding.
Yeah. So, Sarah, similarly, I've been running for over 30 years, and it doesn't seem possible, actually, thinking about it in probably the same way. I I didn't start out as a runner. I started out as a soccer player, and I played competitive soccer year round throughout junior high, high school until suddenly my skills stopped advancing. And someone told me, why don't you try the cross country team? And I was like, okay. So I did, and it was pretty awesome.
And then I walked on to my college team, ran in college, but I never run more than 10 miles. So then on the first day of medical school, I met another girl that actually were still friends, and she was like, hey. I'm training for the Chicago marathon. You wanna train me? And I said, yeah. Sure. Sounds like a good idea. Right? 1st day of med school, and we decide to run a marathon together. I've never done any of that. So that's how my journey started, and and it hasn't stopped.
And, you know, I love the discipline and the patience that it builds because those are things that, you know, we all struggle with and the community too. I mean, just meeting another runner, instantly, we have camaraderie and we're able to kinda chat about, you know, the goods and the bads and how you do this and that and injuries and races and all that stuff. So are you doing races regularly? Real quick. Are like, you're doing races regularly? Like, marathon?
Yeah. Yeah. So I've done 13 marathons. Numbers half numerous half marathons. I just did a half marathon actually 2 weekends ago. I do mostly distance running. But every once in a while, I'll throw in a 5 k, but as you know, we could talk about 5 k a little bit harder than marathons even though that seems like a paradox because you have to run so fast. Yeah. And, Sarah, I I know you run every day, but, like, are you still doing races and stuff? Yeah. So I like Michelle, I ran back in college.
I did cross country and long distance on the track, so we're talking 10 k, 25 laps around the track. And then it's funny that you mentioned that, Michelle, because my first marathon was the Chicago marathon as well. And it was my last year of pharmacy school, and I thought, well, it's wouldn't we did rotations? Let's put it that way. And, speaking of, you know, I've never met a runner. I didn't like like the camaraderie. I was on rotations all across the country.
And so when I would go, you know, let's say, Arizona or I think I was in Washington d I was in Washington DC at FDA, and I didn't know anyone. So I literally would just this is back when we had to look at running magazines. Right? I'd look up the running store, figure out when they met at the track, just show up, introduce myself. Like, I met people all throughout the country through that, and that's how I got the idea to run the Chicago marathon too. So that was my first, introduction.
It's a super distance running. I actually, unlike you, did all my running back then, and I did gosh. I I raced almost every weekend for several years. Half marathons, you know, just any distance. My best friends were all involved in it. I was on running teams. I I stopped about 10 years ago from the competitive, you know, racing just, from, you know, some knee things, different things, but I still get out and run. I have good friends that do it around, you know, in my community.
But so I think we we run for different reasons now. I don't, typically participate in road races. I do it more just for mentally to keep in shape. Yeah. Awesome. And then let's talk about I know there's a lot of MSLs listening, and and I know probably one of the one of the things that's gonna come up is, well, how do you maintain that type of running lifestyle when you're on the road so much?
Yeah. You know, it's actually easier than you might think because to run, you don't need any special equipment. Mhmm. You just need your shoes, and you don't really even need a watch. I mean, I have a special watch. I think all runners like their gear, but you don't absolutely need that. A treadmill, almost every hotel, even the non, like, upper, class ones, they still have treadmills. Or you can run outside if it's safe.
So it's actually a lot easier to stay in shape than most people might think. Yeah. I I'll just add to that. I don't think there's any excuse. Right? All you need are your shoes. You don't have to pack much gear like it's the one thing you can do even if the hotel gym is not very nice and you know, let's face it. The medical affairs like to work in medical affairs can be very stressful. It's often very sedentary.
So I think it's one thing that you can do whether it's even walking for 15 minutes at one of those meetings. Like Michelle noted, you can do it outside. So one thing I hear from people all the time on the phone as a recruiter is, yeah, I was in, you know, San San Francisco or I was in Italy, but, you know, I didn't really get to do anything. I just saw the hotel room and the conference room. You know? I'm like, you know, when I was in MSO, I took advantage as much as I could to get outside.
I was thinking about this and I remember Iran in Vienna, Austria with a couple MSL colleagues and we literally saw all the different things. I mean not everything right, but you know in an hour run before 6:30 am we'd we'd been on tour on foot, so I think it's a great way to not only stay in shape, but also take advantage of all the places you get to go. Well, what I love about that, though, real quick, Sarah, is, like, it's there's this camaraderie to it.
So I guess what you guys from hearing you guys when you're on a team and you're at a conference, you're at an event, or you're with colleagues or whatever, you kind of migrate you know, runners migrate towards each other. So it's a great way to, like, just to build relationships. But I know, Sarah, you told me that this was, like, a networking thing for you. So, Michelle, was that something that, like, were did you use running as a networking thing?
Yeah. I was just gonna throw that in because I've had similar experiences at conferences. But also with KOLs and other just experts in the field, they may be runners, and it's pretty easy to spot another runner. And once you start having those conversations, either they'll have the garment on or they'll be wearing a pair of running shoes that you notice, or they just look a little bit more fit. Or, you know, you can work it into the conversation.
And runners always sort of gravitate to each other because you know the discipline that it takes to run and the what it builds for you in your own life no matter who you are or what your career is. And so I've actually, at different conferences, run with KOLs at 6 or 6:30 in the morning and gotten to know them as people. And so that builds a really unique relationship because then before long, we're texting each other about our dogs or our home offices.
And, you know, even these really difficult people that are sometimes hard to get into or hard to have a conversation with, it's not hard then because you've built this relationship with them. And that's not only efficient, but it's really fun. Yeah. There's not a wonder that you're gonna meet that's if you ask them, like, what's your favorite route that they're not gonna wanna share about their their hometown.
So if you are traveling as an MSO and like you said, you can usually spot a runner pretty easily. So that's that's great. I think, you know, just thinking about the MSLs that I've met on my teams throughout the years, my very first role is I was just a brand new MSL. Right? You know, I think there were about 18 of us, something like that, maybe 20. And 2 of us introduced ourselves and, we were runners and then one was a triathlete. And the next day, we went for a run. You know?
So and instantly, I had a bond with them. And those 2 guys, I worked with for 7 years at different companies, you know, and we just we ran all over the place. And the other example that's really funny, I don't think Tom knows this, but my last job in medical affairs, I got through running. And I'm not lying when I say that because I was at a medical conference. It was a friend that I used to work with. We were too busy to catch up at lunch. You know what it's like.
You have all these things to do. So we're like, well, we could get together to run. It'd have to be 5 AM, but, you know, we can do it. It's pretty safe. Like, we'll make sure that we have, you know, our lights and stuff. And we got to chatting and she was telling me about, you know, they were expanding. Like, why I'm happy where I'm at. You know, I'm not going anywhere. 3 weeks later, I got laid off. And so I called her. I said, hey, you know, It was great running.
Like, you still got that position. 4 weeks after that, I got the job. So it's just this thing where you can just keep these instant bonds with people, and it's priceless. You guys make it sound so easy. You know? Like, someone who's not like a real like, it takes a lot for me. I run 3 days a week, but it's not really running. It's like jogging, and it's like maybe 4 miles. You guys are legit. So what about let's talk about that.
So what if there's someone out there that maybe wants to run a marathon or a half marathon? So what advice do you have for those guys? I'll answer from, like, a professional perspective. And then since Michelle's, like, more competitive right now, I think she could do more on the running side. But II just wanted to speak to that Tom because when I was at my companies where we would meet in the morning like our rule is we will never let someone like lag behind for safety reasons and whatnot.
So we would always just run at least to the pace of the slowest person or come back. Like, go back, you know, just run over out where we could see each other and come back and catch up. And so I feel like if you're willing to do it, even if you wanna go for a walk, you're gonna be able to find someone if you just put that out there in the universe. I remember I was at a POA, and we had all different kinds of people.
I end up running with person from regulatory, person from marketing, all different paces and some walkers. So I think just it doesn't if you can run, that's great. If you can jog, that's great. If you can walk, that's great. So I just recommend everybody at least trying to get some steps in. But, Michelle, I think you'll have a better philosophy and and just if somebody wants to run a marathon, like, where they can start.
Well, I love what you just said because it is really important to remember that you don't have to run a 6 minute mile to be a marathon runner or to be called a runner, really. You can run any pace. Even a run walk, you're still a runner, Tom, so don't don't think that you're not doing something that's really towards running.
You know, I think everybody kinda wants to run a marathon, but that's that's really then how you also draw these similarities between being an MSL or in medical affairs and and marathons is everybody wants to be an MSL or wants to be in medical affairs. But you have to also remember that all of this, it's not a sprint. It's a marathon. Right? It's not you don't wake up one day and suddenly you're a runner or you're really, really good at what you do, whether it's running or your career.
It's it's an everyday process. You get up. You put in the time. You eat right. You look for other people to build that community and bounce ideas off of. And, suddenly, one day, you wake up and you can run 13 miles. And it's the same way as in MSL or in medical affairs or whatever you're doing. You think that you, have to do it all at once, and and you don't.
And so remembering that, remembering it starts with that first step and just one day at a time and continuing to make those choices, those right choices, and work really hard and get up every day and do it, that's what's gonna help you out in in running and in life, I guess. Well, it's true. You have to kinda start somewhere. And I love the way you're making that parallel between the MSL career and, you know, preparing for a marathon.
Because both require kind of baby steps in order for you to get started, and then you work at it every day. You work at it every day. And before you know it, you've built a really great MSO career. It's the same thing with running. You don't start up by running 26 miles. You start up by running maybe a mile or 2 or 3 or whatever.
So let's I know that one of the things that I get out of running, even though I'm kind of a novice to the to to the extent of not I actually did run 1 half marathon, so that does count. I ran 1 race. But anyway, I know that it just the what it does for me mentally is unlike anything else. And I've been working out since I'm, you know, a little kid. There's just nothing that any cardio workout, anything I've done in the past, even, you know, sports, it's just running does something.
So how important is the mental edge that you get from running, and how do you relate that to overcoming challenges of being an MSL or any career? I mean, for me, it's thinking about the mentally tough part and the challenges. I always go back to being at mile 18 or 20 in a marathon. You never feel good at that point no matter what, no matter how much preparation. And that's how it is a lot of times as an MSL or in whatever you're doing.
There might be a time when you're not sure what's gonna happen. I mean, I remember I went through a launch, for the drug that is, that our company has, and we went from precommercial to commercial. And all the challenges that come with that from the going from disease education to then those reactive conversations. And the personalities, our company was really small. There were less than 40 people when I joined. And now there are over a 140.
I mean, it's still a small company, but that's much larger than it was. So working with different personalities cross functionally, marketing, commercial, medical affairs, market access, everybody has a strong personality, but yet a common goal. And how do you find that common goal when things are hard and everybody is pulling at you in different ways? You go back to that that mile 18 and and how bad you feel and knowing that quitting is not an option.
But figuring out how to get through it, whether, you know, when you're running, it's taking a gel or, getting a drink of water or even mentally pulling yourself back and saying, you can't get distracted here. You you're not going to step off the side and quit. You're gonna work through this. I think that's a lot of what running gives you and helps helps you be successful as an MSL. What do you think, Sarah? Yeah. No. I love it, especially with the mile 18, I think.
And and Tom brought this up too, you know, but, well, I just don't like it. People don't love running. Like, I think Michelle and I both started the podcast and we were like, we love running. That doesn't mean that we wake up every day, like, jumping up and down. Yeah. I get to go run. Like, you 9 times out of 10, you feel like, you know, and even during the run, you feel terrible. It's the after when you feel good. So I think people need to realize, like, change your expectations. It's not fun.
But, like, being, you know, in medical affairs, a lot of it is not fun. It it's a lot of hard work. And when you accept that and you embrace that and you take on the challenges and you're you you just accept that a lot of the things are not gonna be, you know, enjoyable, and you just do it anyway. So I think that's the biggest thing.
And, again, you know, when I mentioned as a student that last year pharmacy school, like, it wasn't fun for me to go, like, to different tracks and introduce myself. It was very uncomfortable. I wasn't that natural to do that. I was this little girl from Iowa, you know, out in DC, like, you know, just trying to stay safe.
Like, if you don't do that and put yourself out there, you know, and go out and, you know, introduce yourself to that really intimidating KOL or whatever it might be, then you just don't grow. So I think that's that's where running is just so it it's always been very significant in my life that, like, well, if I can do I made it up that hill that was terrible. You know, remember that. You can do anything. Yeah. I mean, listen. There's so many I mean, I'm listening to you guys.
There's just so many benefits to it. Mhmm. Not just the obvious health benefits that you would get, but all this other stuff that we're talking about. So what else what else do you get from it? So doing this over the long haul, you know, you're creating relationships and you get these health benefits. You're networking, and it's, you know, it's helping you mentally. It's helping you physically. What other benefits have you guys gotten? And and how does that relate to your career success?
I mean, besides the fact that I can eat ice cream every day. That's gotta count for something. Not everybody can say that. I know. Keep your calories. Like, you could probably you probably need calories with all the running you're doing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I I mean, the we've already talked about a lot of things, but I think the mindset is really the big thing here. So being able to take something and break it down I've run 13 marathons. I've run Boston.
I've placed 2nd, 3rd woman overall in some of these races. And and that only comes because I look at this race, whatever it is, and I break it down into mile by mile. And I remember it's 1 mile at a time, and I put all I can into that mile, and then it's the next mile. And so that builds the mindset, and that translates to my life as well. And as I get older, I realize how much it translates into everything that I do from the preparation to the execution. That's awesome. No. You said it so well.
The only other thing I think I can add is confidence. And the reason I bring that up is, like Michelle, I was a runner in college, but you know, I'll be honest. I wasn't usually the one that was winning races. I was the one that was probably at the end of our team, but like I was giving it my 100%. But no matter how you know, back then I just I didn't believe in myself.
And now that I look back on that, like, if I had if I knew some of the personal development things and the you know, just believing in yourself back then that I know now, I would have been a much better runner.
So I think I take those lessons and I can apply it to my career into my personal and professional life and even the candidates that I work with like if you start at the starting line of a of a race and you really don't believe you can do it or you don't believe that you can set the time, they physically, you're not gonna be able to do it. And there's a lot of runners out there that, you know, we we go to the line like that because it's intimidating.
Marathons are intimidating, but, you know, local road races are too. So I think just showing up with confidence and doing what you said you were going to do, it just it it'll take you so far. You know, it's amazing. You know, Michelle, getting back to what you were saying about 1 mile at a time. So I forget the guy's name, but there is a guy that actually ran, I think or he did 100 Ironman competitions in 100 days.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And he was notorious for he would literally just take, like, 1 minute at a time, 1 mile at a time. And he tells a story about how he would get upset. He would literally get upset and have to block out, like, people that would be cheering him on and say things like, come on. You only have 6 miles to go. He would get upset by that. Because in his mind, he only had one mile to go. And then after that mile, he had one more mile. And then after that mile, he had one more mile.
So he convinced himself, just like anything else in life, if you just take one day at a time, you take one step at a time, 1 minute at a time, you'll eventually get to where you need to be. But you're not gonna be overwhelmed by the magnitude of the task that you have in front of you. Now crazy thing is he did. So what do you think the guy did after he completed 100 straight days of Ironman competitions? What do you think he did on the 101st day? He did another one. He did the end.
He did another one. Because he he didn't want he just he wanted to show everybody that you need sometimes you need to do one more. So that brings me to we're in a in a kind of a crazy time right now. Right? There's some uncertainty out there. If you look around, which I don't, I don't like to look at noise. I don't pay attention to noise.
But in reality, there are a lot of people that maybe just got laid off, or they're worried that they might get laid off because of things that are going on with their company. What advice do you have for MSLs out there or anyone out there, that that's going through that uncertainty, fear, doubt that comes with the time that we're in right now. Mhmm. Yeah. It's so easy to get distracted and to get down about different things. You're absolutely right.
And, again, comparing it to running, you just gotta trust your training. And you show up every day. You just show up, and you trust your training and enjoy the process, whether it's something you didn't expect, like getting laid off or maybe your KOL doesn't show up for a really important meeting or maybe the conversation that you had prepared so well for. You're not talking about any of the stuff that you did research on.
You will still be able to get through that and thrive if you just, again, trust your training, enjoy the process, have confidence in yourself like Sarah mentioned so well. Sarah, what about you? Yeah. I think, Michelle Michelle, you said it'd be great, but I'll just add control the controllables. So I was thinking, like, if you're running a race, you can't control the weather. Right? You can't control that someone was loud in the hotel room, you know, last night next to you.
Can't control maybe that the breakfast wasn't exactly what you wanted. But when you get out there, like, you can control how, you know, Tom, you said it. You can control how much effort you put into every mile and the words that you say to yourself. And it's the same, you know, as a professional.
You can't control, you know, maybe that the drug didn't do so well or that it's they're down, you know, that the the data isn't quite what you were gonna talk to with the KOL, you know, or the appointment that like you said, the appointment appointment didn't go as well. But you can control your reaction, and you can control what you do next. Awesome. You guys are amazing. This was really exciting. I can't believe we went boom. Went through this so fast. So, I think we're gonna leave it there.
We gotta do this again, though. You guys were both, like, so easy to talk to, and I wanna wish everybody the best out there and anybody that is considering starting to run. It's not as hard as you might think. Just like both Michelle and Sarah said, just take one day at a time and, and let those days build on each other. But, Michelle, thanks for joining us. Appreciate you being here. And, Sarah, thanks for having me. Thanks for doing us again. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much. Have an awesome day.
You too. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.