Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Danielle Day, senior medical director at Sobe North America, and we talk about how MSLs grow within the role and beyond. Great conversation. Hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube, of course. And check us out on MSL talk live on Clubhouse. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Danielle. How are you doing today?
Thanks for joining me. Hi, Tom. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm excited. This is gonna be fun. I'm so glad that we're doing this. Me too. So let's start. Like, we always start with an introduction. And I know about your background, but I wanted to see if maybe just to introduce you, your background, what you're up to these days, and then we could kinda get a little more into, like, the topic. Sure. So let's see. How far back do we go? The older I get, the more there is to tell.
Well, well, you know, I think that so we're today, we're gonna talk about, like, how to grow within the MSL role, and then Beyond. Beyond. Right? So there's there's a couple different pieces to this. Yeah. So are you you're a PhD. Right? I am. Yes. We could start there. So I never heard of an MSL when I was a PhD. It didn't exist.
You were sort of beaten into this idea of following in the footsteps of your PhD adviser, which meant you were gonna walk uphill in the snowstorm both ways and write grants and publish or perish, and that was your that was gonna be your life, right, in academia. And God forbid you should ever go to the dark side Yeah. Which is which is industry. Right? Right. So my first job out of my PhD program was actually, at a research institution on an army base.
I was an a scientist for the military nutrition, division, and it was, it was a great job. I actually got a real salary versus going to fellowship, which, for those people listening, know that that's not a great salary to go down that path. That really is walking up the hill, both sides, in a snowstorm. Mhmm. And I wasn't super happy with that role. It was a government job. I I liked the people.
I loved the ability to be a civilian serving serving the military in that capacity, but, I had a lot of time to think about what else I might wanna do. We'll just put it that way. Yeah. And that was actually when I first saw a description of a medical science liaison. And I remember reading that that description and thinking, why did nobody ever tell me about this? This sounds like the best job in the world. And then, of course, the next question was, but how do you become 1?
Because every single job description says must have experience. Right. So that was in, like, 2005, 2006, and I think I saw the Carol Anne Group was one of the you guys were around then. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that was when you googled MSL, that was one of the first things that came up. So I'm sure I reached out to you at some point back way back then Yep.
And may have even, you know, talked to you over email or whatnot, but just kind of couldn't figure out how you could carve a path for yourself down that Yep. That road towards the MSL. So it was in the back of my mind, but I I really couldn't figure out a way to to get into that. So I I ended up going back to academia, and I worked at, a couple of universities, a small one and then a larger one.
And, I was tenure track at the University of Massachusetts and thinking about my long term career, and it's the same thing I always told my students to think about was, you know, what do you really wanna do, and make sure you're you're kind of keeping your mind open always and not just thinking about the next day or the next month or next year, but what about 20 years from now? And in my mind, I was thinking, I don't think this is what I wanna do 20 years from now.
I loved the teaching, and I still miss that part of it, but I, I didn't really love the research anymore. I didn't love the pressure of getting grants and publications. And so I actually thought, well, maybe I got the wrong degree, and I should go to medical school. So I was, like, in year 5 of my tenure track position, and I started looking into going to get the other d degree and going back to medical school. Wow. Yeah. And, I found out that all of my coursework from undergrad had expired.
So I would teach during the day and, be doctor Day, and then I would go across campus at night and sit in, like, freshman chemistry and freshman physics classes. Jeez. So I spent about 3 semesters doing that, trying to catch up on all the coursework at night while doing my day job. And I started taking an MCAT class, and I was like, oh my god. This test is gonna be really hard. What if I don't pass? And then I was like, oh my gosh. I'm kinda old.
What if I, you know, can't stay awake during 8 hours of classes and all the studying? And so I thought maybe I should have a backup plan. And I called a friend of mine who had gone straight to industry, and we did our PhDs together. And I said, can you tell me about your your job and this this MSL this MSL role? You know, I read about it about 5 years ago, but, I still don't really understand what it is or how to get into it. And this is, like, where luck plays a huge role in this.
She wrote back and said, send me your resume. We have 21 openings right now. Way. And what company was this? That was AstraZeneca. Wow. Yeah. It was crazy. And I said so I did. I pulled my resume together. I had a conversation with her, and she set me up with a a phone interview. And she sent me a list of all the territories that were open and said, where would you be willing to move? And I knew that I would likely have to move if I wanted to to make this this career move.
So I was open to that, but I wasn't open to everywhere in the country. So I gave her kind of my short list. And I went on my first phone screen interview with a hiring manager in the Boston area for a cardiology position, and I was not prepared at all. I thought it was just gonna be kind of a casual, laid back conversation that I'll never forget. He said to me, so why why AstraZeneca? And I've kind of paused because I certainly wasn't prepared for that question.
I just wanna You're like, my friend works here. I don't know. Exactly. He said to. He told me. And he nailed it right away. He was like, is it just because you know this other person? And I was like, well, I mean, I think it's a great company. But he went back to her, and he said, you know, first of all, cardiology in Boston with a green MSL is probably not gonna be the best position to set her up for success and and maybe not the company either. So I failed. I failed that phone screen.
And then I went and did all my research on AstraZeneca as a company and came got very prepared. And, things were kind of quiet for a while after that, and then maybe a month or so later, another opportunity came up, and she said, a position just opened in Colorado. And I had done my graduate work in Colorado, so I was like, man, I'd love to move back there. It was a new manager, new MSL manager, and she was open to hiring people without experience. And I think that that's a very clutch thing.
It's, like, finding that person who's open minded enough to realize. And I I did my phone screen with her, and I explained my background and my research. And she was like, I love, you know, like, your personality. This is the think this would be a great fit. And she said, you know, what is your what do you think your biggest challenge would be coming into this role? And I said, the fact that I know nothing about the pharmaceutical industry.
Yeah. Yeah. I was very honest about it, and she was like, oh, don't worry about that. We can teach you that. Well, you, you wound up with a good you had a you had a very reasonable, easygoing manager, which She she just wanted she's like, I just want the right personality for my team. And I and I say this to hiring managers all the time, and I I hope that recruiters, you know, push back on some of these companies too that keep saying it has to be someone with experience.
It has to be someone with experience because, you know, that manager took a chance on me, but I took that as, like, I need to prove myself to her now. Yeah. And so I came on board, and I hustled, and I grinded, and I wanted to be the best I could possibly be. And I didn't wanna let her down. I mean, she made a huge she took a huge chance on me. Yeah. I took a huge chance, you know, also, you know, moved myself across the country and and and took this new role and everything.
And while I was at AstraZeneca, I I always like to highlight this. I was on an awards committee, 1 year for Med Affairs Awards, and I got to read all of the nominations, which is like the best job in the world because you're like, this is the best of the best, all of the happy things that are happening in the company that you don't even realize. And what I noticed was there were so many nominations for these young MSLs who were in their 1st year just Yeah.
Rushing it, rushing it, like, just accomplishing so many things that were just out of this world and outside the realm of your you know, the defined roles of the job. And I just thought, boy, people should recognize more that when you hire someone who's green and and just feels grateful to have been admitted into the club, you're gonna get somebody who's who's gonna go to the Run through a brick wall.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of managers hire aspiring MSLs is because they know that they're gonna get that eagerness. Yes. And going back to your point, you know, I think you took advantage of the fact that you had a hiring manager that was hiring on fit Yeah. Not just on experience and all this other stuff. They wanted up the personality, and they wanted the scientific background and skills and acumen.
So when you're interviewing, it's so important to make sure you highlight the best version of yourself Yes. In every way. Because, you know, a lot of times when when you hear from a hiring manager or an HR person, they say, well, the person's not a fit. Well, that could mean anything. So it's up to you when you're interviewing to make yourself the fit Mhmm. By doing all the extra things and making sure that you, again, come off in the best way possible. Okay. So you become an MSL.
Yeah. You're crushing it. You love it. And then how did you get into you got into leadership roles. How did you I I loved being an MSL. I'm I advanced pretty quickly at AstraZeneca, and I got myself involved with a number of different initiatives and projects. And I started some initiatives just based on my interest and the interest of the KOLs in my territory. And that led to collaborations with publications and with marketing and with market access.
And I just got exposure to all of these different parts of the company, and and by design too. I mean, every time I heard of a new I I mean, I was clueless. I didn't even know what medical affairs was or that it existed before this this job. And so every time I heard a new title or a new department, I was like, what does that department do? And I, you know, try to find somebody there and say, would you just get on a call with me and tell me what you do? Because I'm I'm interested in this.
And, you know, I just asked a ton of questions. And then anytime there was an opportunity to be involved with a project or bring a project to publications or, you know, again, to marketing and just say, I've got these people in my territory. They have this unique interest that I think would be aligned with our strategy. What do you think? And it was just throw those ideas out there, have that conversation, and it wasn't always a yes. But, eventually, it was a yes.
And, eventually, it was like, oh, wow. Nobody's ever thought about this this way before, and this could be interesting. Let's explore it. So it was just taking a lot of chances and just putting myself out there. And I think part of that was a benefit of being naive, honestly, because if I had been an MSL for 10 years, I might have been kind of in that routine of Yeah. This is what we do, and they hand us the strategy, and we go out in the field, and we execute on it.
But I was like I said, I was kinda clueless. I was like, I don't know. I just called this person and had a conversation with them, and they were like, yeah. Let's let's explore that more. You know? So it's it was, it was a benefit. So I think when I'm so I'm a yoga instructor also, and I like to bring a lot of, like, the yoga philosophy into everything. But one of the things we talk about when people come to a yoga class is there's only so many poses you can do.
So you come in, and it's gonna be some combination of those poses. But what I like to always say and and practice myself is, like, pretend you've never been here before. Pretend you've never done a downward dog before. What does it feel like today? Because your body's gonna be different day to day. Yeah. And I think that that is a really helpful thing to think about when you've been in a role for a long time too.
If you're in a new company or if you're in the same company, just pretend that you've never been here before, you know, and just ask more questions and be curious and just think, you know, I've been doing things the same way for a long time. What if I just tried something different? And instead of just thinking, like, well, they're never gonna go for this? Maybe they will. You know? That's great advice. Quick shout out.
There's a lot of people that reach out to me and say that they listen to the podcast while they're working out. So if you're working out right now, get after it. Do an extra mile. If you're walking, do an extra mile. Do a couple extra reps. Yeah. So, yeah.
No. But that's that's so, basically, what you're saying is you wanna come in with kind of not come in, but come up with maybe some creative ideas or be an out of the box thinker a little bit and put yourself out there because you don't know what you might get from it. Yeah. Yeah. And then ask those people too. You know? Kinda if you're talking to someone who works in publications, what's the publication strategy right now? Where are the gaps?
Are you guys looking for people to write review articles? Are you looking for people to do case studies? You know, kind of get a a sense of that because then you can be in your territory listening for those opportunities and then bringing them back, and now you've got a way to collaborate and yourself work on a publication.
So I was able to coauthor a couple of abstracts at AstraZeneca after I proposed that we look at some of the clinical trial data, in a retrospective analysis assessing potential differences in efficacy and safety between women and men, which hadn't been done before. But I had KOLs in my territory who ran a center for women's health research, and I had a background in my own research of looking at sex differences in physiology.
And so it all kinda came together, and it was something that the company had never done before, and it was just a unique angle. Yeah. And that, you know, that led into a lot of other initiatives related to that topic as well. So, I mean, it was lucky in some ways, but it was also just continuing to try. Again, I didn't get a no immediately when I brought this idea up. It it took a while for me sort of trying to convince, and I had to think about how to pitch those ideas.
So it was a really great learning experience. And then in that that involvement with those other functions in the company is what led me to think, you know, I do love being an MSL, but I'm sort of curious about what goes into the strategy that's handed to the team and and what goes on behind the curtain. Well and it wasn't luck. You put yourself out there. You were proactive in your approach. So when we talk about this concept of growth within the role, that doesn't just happen.
It happens because you take a proactive approach to something. So it sounded like this is almost like networking. It's like internal networking or, you know, you know, collaboration and cross functional engagement within the department to, you know, to kinda put yourself out there. I mean, is am I Yeah. Kinda botching this, or is that kinda No. No. That's exactly right. I mean, I that's exactly how I would describe it as internal networking.
And, again, just getting to understand the the commercial strategy. I mean, I think a lot of times we do get really isolated when you're 1 in the field, 2 in field medical. And so understanding what the overarching strategy is for our for the business, for the commercial side, for then the functions within medical affairs as well.
And then taking that and thinking, like, what can I do in my territory that would allow me to support that and also give me an opportunity to learn a new skill set and and what goes into publications? And and, I mean, I was on calls with the biostatisticians from our global team as we were putting this abstract together. I mean, I got to run an ad board, which is very unusual for an MSL, particularly at a at a large company like that, but it was an ad board on diabetes in women.
And that was kind of my like, I owned that that whole project. And so it it just gave me a ton of exposure to the other side of the the medical affairs function out in the in house functions, really. Yeah. Well and that's a I think that's a good segue into, you know, how do we look at this? Do we look at this where so you have MSLs that might be career MSLs. What that's that's pretty much all they really wanna do. And maybe there's a different version of it that they wanna evolve into.
But then you have MSLs that wanna they wanna evolve into something different. Mhmm. So, like, almost like there's different tracks. Yeah. So what's your opinion on how people should, number 1, assess what they wanna be when they grow up? And, you know, how they get and then there's how how do they get there. Mhmm. So some of the best advice that I got because I even after all of that exposure to the different departments and meta fairs, I still was kind of like, I don't know what I don't know.
I don't know what the what all of the different roles even are. And so through that internal networking, I got hooked up with one of the VPs at AstraZeneca, who's this amazing guy. I mean, obviously, very high up in the company. He's he's he's somewhere else now, but I wrote to him. You know, he had no idea who I was.
He wasn't in the same therapeutic area as me, but I just said, a mentor of mine here at AZ has said that, you know, you'd be willing to maybe talk to me about my career development. He was like, sure. Schedule time with me next time you're in Wilmington, and he gave me an hour of his time. Wow. I went in, and and the best advice I got from him was, don't think about a specific role or a title that you want. Think about the skills that you want to acquire.
And then if those if you can figure out what the skills are that you want to acquire, then you can look for opportunities, and it may not be defined by a certain role. It may just be a a project or a rotation or, just something that you wanna get exposure to it to see if it's what you really like. So I thought that that was really good advice from him, and that's something that I've thought about ever since. Well, it's it's funny because a lot of times when we think and I know me as a recruiter.
Like, we think about this in the terms of titles. What are the titles that we need to be pursuing? And you're saying kind of the opposite. What you're saying is seek out an opportunity based upon, you know, maybe skill set or responsibilities or what might be involved in that role Yeah. Which I guess, the only way you know is if you kinda raise your hand and and ask and start to poke around. Exactly. Exactly. And that goes right back to it. Like, what's involved in medical information?
What do you people do on a day to day basis? What's your favorite part of your job? What's your least favorite part of your job? Like, make sure you get the good, the bad, and the ugly when you talk to somebody about the role that they do every day, and they're like, well, most of it's great, but this part really stinks. And and people used to ask me that about being an MSL, like, what's the least favorite part of your job? And I would always be like, expense reports. Yeah. There's paperwork.
Yeah. The paperwork part, but it's it's a part of it. And then the follow-up question should be, like, how much time do you spend on that? Because when I used to teach at the university, I was in the department of physical therapy, and I had all these young students who wanted to be physical therapists. And I bring people in to talk about what they did with their exercise physiology degrees that was not physical therapy just so they could get different perspectives.
And I said, present the good, the bad, and the ugly of your job. And so many times, people in the PT field a lot of the health care practitioners will tell you that, but just say, my job is more paperwork than people, and what I thought it was gonna be was more people than paperwork. So Right. That was a real eye opener for a lot of people who were thinking about going down that path. Maybe they still wanna go down that path, but at least they they have that expectation now.
It's like, it's not gonna just be helping people every day. It's gonna be a lot of documentation and this other kind of stuff too, and the same is true for them. It's all real. So this is interesting. I'm gonna go back to like, you so you take you took a deep dive, and what you're saying is you kinda have to take a deep dive, almost be like an investigative journalist Yeah. And ask a lot of questions and try to see if you can get some insight into how things work.
And, like, I know they say sometimes you don't wanna see the sausage being made kind of thing. But, like, you're saying check out the sausage? I mean, if you have the stomach for it. Right? Maybe like you said, you don't really wanna know. You're like, I'm happy with whatever those people are doing back there, and they're just gonna hand this to me on a plate and tell me to go do my job, and that's fine. And and and I think, again, it's about knowing yourself.
And sometimes it's not great to see what's what's going on behind the curtain because it's chaos. I mean, a lot of it's chaos. I'm I'm there now. Yeah. But but, no, I think if you have that kind of curiosity, you should at least entertain that and and explore it a little bit and just see, like then you then you know what you don't wanna do also. Like, oh, this is what, you know, marketing is. This is what, pharmacovigilance is. Yeah. No. I'm not interested in that.
But, you know, then you can tick that off the the the list. The other way to do it and the easy way to do it is to look at job descriptions. Yeah. And that's from my standpoint, that's kinda what we tell people to do is you look at the other titles that exist within medical affairs that might be a good next step for an MSL like yourself to move into.
And look at the job description for these titles and see what might be, number 1, a good fit for you, and number 2, something that you're interested in and you have the transferable skills for. Right. So that's the other way. So what like, let's talk about titles for a second. So we'll take a little bit of a step away from that because so that's your your approach of being the investigative journalist is going in and and meeting with a bunch of people internally and putting yourself out there.
I think that's awesome advice, and I think that's something that is somewhat of a newer concept on this podcast. I don't think we really talked about that approach in all of the episodes that that, you know, that I've been involved in, which is all of them. But so I think that's awesome. I love the idea of the internal networking and being able to learn, and see what other people do. But what if you just wanna go after specific titles?
What's your thought on that, and what titles do you think people can grow into? From the MSL role? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think the field medical role, and I've heard you guys mention this on previous podcast too, I mean, obviously, it's an incredibly unique role and an an incredibly unique skill set.
And I know that there are companies with in house people who are trying to move up the career ladder in house who will actually get stymied at points if they have never spent time in field medical, which is interesting. I mean so there there are companies that really value that perspective, and I think that that's another thing to question when you're thinking about moving to a different company or even within your company is where do you place the value on field medical as experience?
Because some people see it as very narrow experience, and other people will say, no. This is, like, the foundational experience. Like, you actually know what our customers are thinking and saying, and you have the ability to get the insights, whereas we're sometimes operating in a conference room with a little bit of, you know, a a wall between us and that world. So the there's tremendous value in bringing that to an in house position.
In terms of going after a certain title or a certain role, I mean, if you know if you really know, if you've worked with somebody in that role and you know what their role is about and you think it's a good fit for you and you have the skill set and the interest like you said, then I don't see an issue with that. For me, personally, I've benefited from, having 2 really diverse medical affairs roles in smaller companies, and I think this is the benefit of of being, in a smaller pump company.
So I was at 2 small biotechs where my role was a very general associate director of medical affairs, and it was a catchall.
It was like these companies that didn't have very many medical affairs employees, they did value the the field experience as so even though I didn't have any in house experience, it was, well, we understand field medical and think that that's a great foundation for anything MedAffairs, and so come on in and you'll get exposure to and I did, you know, hub strategy running ad boards, still being kind of an MSL too.
So it's sort of like an MSL plus and a really awesome opportunity to transition, at least get a peek into what those home home office opportunities look like. To me, that was better. I I like that kind of variety approach versus I I guess I'm not really, like, a laser focused person. I actually it really irritates me. There's an ice cream stand near my house that doesn't allow you to get more than one flavor unless you order a large.
And I'm, like, literally trying to get my neighbors together to to run a picket line on this place because I don't yeah. Like, what is the point? Like, you're scooping multiple times to give me a small. Why can't you just scoop once over there and once over there and give me 2 flavors? I mean, can you go the extra step, man? You're you're supposed to you're you are in a service position delivering happiness. It's ice cream. Good god, man. Yeah. You gotta be a little more nimble than that.
I know. Heard of such a thing. I know. So but that's that's a little bit like, from my personality perspective, I like to try a little bit of the of different things and have variety in my job. So I'd sign that petition, by the way. But, Yeah. Thank you. No. I see your point. I mean, I I see the point that you're making, and I I think it's a good one.
And I think that the other point that you're making that is important, and that's why these conversations are so difficult, is that there's a difference between small company and large company. Yeah. And there's a difference in how you grow either within the MSO role or beyond the MSO role in a small company and in a large company.
Yep. So you really kinda do need to find out what you think you wanna do next because it's gonna be important to know how to navigate that in a small company versus a large company. Small company, you get to wear a lot of hats. You just explained that, you know, you you just get to do a lot. In a larger company, you're go there's gonna be a 1000000 different titles. And you could have a lot of different other places that you can evolve to.
Whereas in a small company with less infrastructure, you're gonna be limited in the number of opportunities as far as titles that you can grow into. But you're gonna you're gonna have a lot more opportunity to do more because you're not gonna have the title, but you're probably just gonna be doing it anyway.
Right. And, I mean but with those small companies too, you if you get in early and you're doing this more diverse medical affairs support, whatever needs to get done, wearing a ton of hats, you're getting all that experience, but you're also identifying, like, the days that you dread. If you're like, oh my god. I have to, like, track down all these authors so we can get this abstract, you know, to this conference submission.
If that's not your jam, then, eventually, when you are ready to grow, you can be like, hey. Let's hire somebody in publication so that I can take that off my plate. And you kinda get to carve your own path in those places if you get in early. And and, again, I think you can make a strong case as an MSL if you are trying to go in house. Like, those big companies, there's limited positions. I've heard you guys talk about that on your podcast too.
You're competing against a lot of other people, maybe MSLs that have more experience than you. So, I mean, one, as we talked about earlier, making yourself visible, making it known that you have aspirations to at least learn more about the other opportunities outside of a field medical role, but then also ask about doing rotations, being on projects, and things like that.
So then when something does open up in those departments, they can say, boy, I wonder if that MSL that, you know, worked with us on this project would be interested in joining our team. We have an opening. I know that they said they wanted they weren't sure if they wanted to be an MSL forever. So you you have to make that connection. It's a little bit harder, I would say, at a at a big company, but certainly not impossible, and I've and I've seen it happen.
And then also asking, you know, you talked about a specific role. Ask for feedback from your managers, and this was another thing I did at AstraZeneca too. I'd say, well, you know, now that you guys have seen me work for a couple of years, like, what kind of role do you think I would be a good fit for from your impression?
And they'd say, oh, you know, well, this is a role that, you know, has x, y, and z, and I think that this would be a good match for your personality, your skill set, your interest. And so, you know, use those those people, your your managers, your coaches, the directors that have seen your work, give you some of that direction as well. So what you're saying because I was gonna ask about that because we you you mentioned in house role a couple of times.
And I do talk to a lot of people who are like, yeah. Eventually, they wanna go in house. Mhmm. So what you're saying is to get yourself prepared or position yourself for an in house role, that's something you have to work at. And you have to put yourself in different situations to gain the experience that you could document on your CV so that, eventually, when the time comes, you can show that you have that experience Yeah. To be able to say, yeah.
Hey. I think I'm qualified for this because I did this, this, and this. I was involved in all these different projects. Oh, and by the way, I talked to my manager. My manager said I'd be good at this too. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and I'm also a big fan of of being pretty open and transparent about what you don't know. Like, I told that first story where I was like, I have no idea what about the pharmaceutical industry. You know?
It's and and I've done that a couple of times on interviews where I've just kind of been, like, you know, throwing it out there thinking, like, that was maybe not was was not the best decision to to let them know that. And it's never backfired on me. You know, it's always been just so, like, wow. I think it's really great that you brought that up as, like, a an area of development for yourself or a gap.
You know, and because the last thing you wanna do too is kind of sell something that you can't follow through on, and then you get there. And they hand you this project, and you're like, they're like, you're good. Right? Okay. Go ahead. And you're like, oh my god. I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah. Well, that's a that's a really you gotta do that dance. That's a real you have to balance that because as much as people kinda try to fake it till they make it, you can't really fake it too much.
Because if you oversell your capabilities, and then you get in the role and you're not able to deliver, well, then the person that gave you that opportunity is gonna be pretty upset. But the other part of it is you do want to be able to make sure that you can ex you express your capabilities. You it's okay to say, hey. I don't have direct experience in this. Mhmm. But I do have this. Exactly. And that's why I think I'd be really good for this role. Exactly.
Yeah. If you have, you know, sort of the foundational elements that are required to do that. Well, I haven't done it in that context before, but I've done it in this context before. I mean, even for getting your 1st MSL job, if you've been a teaching assistant, you know, as a PhD or whatnot, you use that experience. Right? Like, I'm up in front of people all the time. I'm putting presentations together. I'm explaining really complex things in simple ways that people can understand it. You know?
We use that, right, to to talk about how we would be good at getting in front of KOLs and talking about the data. Right. So you know how to do that even just getting into that first role, and it's the same thing kind of for the the next level of going from MSL to in house. And and using that that leverage of, like, hey. I know what the outside world thinks about our product and thinks about this disease state and where the challenges really are.
Like, I know how to talk to these people and get that information from them. That's gonna be incredibly valuable to you in terms of creating your strategy. Right. And then if you if you're I would also always ask about what kind of support you're gonna have. Like, if it's something that you haven't done before, you can say, I could probably figure this out, but Right. Will I will there be someone for me to ask about this and who can kinda help me on the first round or something?
Because, again, you don't wanna get into a situation where you're plucked into a a void somewhere and just told to go do what you need to do, and you're like, nobody's there to ask questions. You wake up one day, and you're like, wait a second. Nobody told me this was gonna happen. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think you're really good at that.
Obviously, everything that you've described in your past has really been defined by the questions that you've asked either before, during, or after, like, you know, you you have this created this really awesome knack of asking the right questions so that not only are you learning for yourself, but you're also being able to, like, make sure that you're not signing on for something that isn't really gonna work out or that there's gonna be any surprises.
Well, you make it sound very polished in that regard, but, a lot of it is from having some not so great experiences as well. Yeah. You learn trial by fire. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and, I mean, I'll fully admit, like, my first role going from the field to an in house position where I was like, oh, I've totally got this. I didn't totally got this. Yeah. It was it was yeah. It was a huge shell shock. I had a great manager, but he was super busy all the time.
And so a lot of times, I was kind of left with, like, great. I think I'm doing this right. You know? And, and there were some things that just didn't go very well, and it was a huge learning experience for me too, probably the best learning experience I've ever had.
I mean, it gave me a ton of feedback and self awareness and ability to pivot and move forward and, like, then then know what I really needed to ask, especially going, you know, from the field to home office, also going from a huge company to a tiny company. Like, there's so many things that I know now and try to counsel people to ask when they're when they're making those kinds of switches too because Yeah. It's, very different environments.
So we, you know, so we talk about growing, you know, MSLs growing within the role and beyond. Is the beyond in your mind, is that the in house role? What else might be a beyond? Not necessarily. I mean, I think management positions are another obvious one. I mean, to stay and feel medical and become a people manager Yeah. I think that's also a very unique setting. And I think that, you had asked a question about, you know, management development opportunities within organizations.
Probably not something we do very well. Just because you have a great MSL doesn't mean they're gonna be a great MSL manager. Right? It's just like anywhere. But it seems to be the case across any function, not just MedAffairs. Right? People get to a certain level in their role, and they say, okay. Well, now we need someone to lead the team. How about you? Since you've been here the longest, you've done the most.
And that might not be somebody who even likes to manage people or even has a knack for it. So, I think the these positions are incredibly hard to get. I've been mentoring someone for the last couple of years, who's thrown her hat in the ring several times trying to get these management positions, and I'm super happy she just recently finally got one. But it was like, try and try and try again. And and what I loved about her approach to this was she called me to prepare for her first interview.
I think it was about 2 years ago. I helped her prepare for it. She didn't get the position, so she came back to me and said, I've asked them for feedback, and I'd also like you to help me, you know, fill the gaps that I need to get one of these roles. Would you mentor me? And so I was like, sure. I mean, the fact that she was just, like, didn't take that rejection as a a stop point. She was like, okay. Now what do I do? And and she applied to several other positions.
And every time, it was, can you give me some feedback? What am I missing? Okay. And then she'd go and do exactly what they said she needed to do. And it was just so impressive to watch that journey and that stick to itiveness. And and she she finally got it, and it's been like this great, you know, this great heyday. But it's so tough because, again, there's a ton of competition for for those positions. It's tough, man.
We talk about on this show all the time, and there's so many people out there. And I and I have conversations every day with people that are getting frustrated, and they don't know what else to do. But to your point, I think that you just, you know, every situation has to be a learning experience. Mhmm. You have to reach out and try to find mentors. You have to practice. You have to ask good questions. You have to know what you're signing on for.
You have to go above and beyond, and you have to put yourself out there. So this conversation is not about how to land your 1st MSO role, but, obviously, it's a big part of what we talk about here. I just think that, you know, kinda ending it with the the positive you just say that after 2 years, that person got a job? Yeah. I mean, look. That's sometimes what it takes, 2, 3 years. But at the end of the rainbow, you know, sometimes there's the pot of gold.
Yeah. And then and and in the meantime, you know, you're you're learning, you're developing. You know, you'd I love that expression. You either win or you learn. Right? So Yeah. Every everything that she did after those rejections built added to her resume. And, oh, by the way, I mean, sometimes you have to take a more circuitous path. And she ended up at a small company that was just starting with building not just a team, but also filling the manager roles.
Wow. For me, my first MSL director position came as one a result of one of those catch all MedAffairs positions where I was first in the door. So when the team was expanding, my boss said, what do you wanna do next? Do you wanna be a med director? Do you wanna be an MSL director? And I was like, I wanna be an MSL director. So it was like, there you go.
So, I mean, you may not get it right away, but you position yourself and, again, you you can kind of create carve your own path sometimes if you if you take a different direction than just that straightforward. Like, here's the job title. Here's the the job requisition on LinkedIn. I'm gonna apply for it, and I'm gonna get it. Might not be that direct, but if you can be creative and think about other ways that you might get there, just keep the end goal in mind and and keep pushing towards it.
Awesome. That's great advice. Let's leave it there. You are awesome, Danielle. I I really appreciate you coming on, and I know a lot of people are going to use this advice and grow their career and maybe get jobs that they didn't think that they were gonna get Yeah. Because of you. And then they have to come back, and they have to thank you. They have to send you a note on LinkedIn and say, Danielle, thank you because I listened to that podcast, and you helped me. None of us do anything alone.
I have a 1000000 people I could thank for where I found it. Well, thanks again for coming on. We gotta do this again sometime. Definitely. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Alright. Have a good one. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.