Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is our very own Bridget Rasmussen, who is the director of client services here at the Carolyn Group. And Bridget is awesome. As you guys know, we talk about career progression, MSO career progression, titles, promotions, levels, comp, all that stuff. Really awesome conversation. I hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and check us out on YouTube.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Bea. Welcome back to the show. Great to be here. Thanks for having me again. I'm so excited. As you guys may or may not know, Bridget is my partner in crime. So, I'm thrilled because she's the best out there in this business. So I will I was really excited to have her back on to talk about this very important topic.
We are gonna talk about, MSO career progression and everything that goes along with it, like titles and comp and promotions and leveling and all that good stuff. So quick shout out to, Tyler Peters who gave me the inspiration, to talk about career development. So thanks, bud. Hope this is helpful. So, Bea, why don't you do a quick intro? Sure. So I've been with Tom for almost 5 years now, and I started as an executive recruiter. So I've probably spoken with almost 90% of the MSLs across the USA.
So I I I started as a recruiter, so I do have that in-depth experience kinda working in the trenches. And, I mean, I probably had 10 conversations with really qualified people every day. Tom, thank you for tapping me to flip over to the client side. It's been really rewarding and, it's very exciting to see both sides of coin.
So now I can kind of see it from the hiring manager's perspective, but I also have that, deeply entrenched experience working with MSLs 1 on 1 through the interview process. So That's why you're the perfect person to talk about this stuff. Yeah. It's really exciting. And also, it's mutual. You are the best as well. So I'm really lucky to be here and, very excited to have this conversation. Because I think it you know what? I think it will help a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
So let's jump into it. Let's start with, let's start with leveling and how that works and if there's any standards and how companies go about creating different levels for MSLs from, you know, MSL to senior MSL to principal. Like, how does that all really work? Yeah. And I I really wish there was a cut and dry answer to that, but there's not really a standard across industry.
And I remember when I initially started as a recruiter, you sent me a list of, like, 20 different titles that MSLs could have. And you said to me, b, you know, they might be this. They might go under this title. And I've seen that. I see that to this day on LinkedIn recruiter. You know, Pfizer gives their MSLs a field medical director title, which to someone that doesn't really know what they're looking at, that to me, if I was starting as a recruiter, I'd be like, are they a medical director?
Are they in house? But they're an MSL. And Merck did something really similar too. They now have, what are called regional medical scientific directors, but they're MSLs. So there's not really a standard title for MSLs, and I think it's good to be conscious of that, that there's not really a standard across industry. It depends on a lot of different factors. It can it can depend on the size of the company.
It can it can depend on the hiring manager and their preferences, but it also depends very heavily on HR. There's certain parameters that there's certain boxes that HR has to check, in order to give someone a certain title. Meaning, like, criteria? Exactly. So years of experience, it could be degree related, internal equity, so where they have other MSLs. It's it's really a complex kind of question, and I would say it's definitely dependent on the organization that you're interviewing at.
Which is tough because you may have one company that calls an MSL with 3 years of experience a senior MSL. Right. You may have another company that has an MSL with 10 years of experience and still doesn't call them a senior MSL. I mean, is that is that accurate? It's so true. I mean, we were working for a small biotech in Cambridge a couple years ago, and I was working with an MSO that was really qualified.
She'd worked for some really major players, and that company wouldn't give her a senior title until she hit 8 years of experience as an MSO. Whereas the other day, I was on LinkedIn recruiter, and I saw this clinical pharmacist that had maybe 4 years of experience in a hospital setting, and she got her 1st MSL job in pharma as a senior MSL. So that kind of blew my mind. And all the conversations I've had with people, it kind of flipped it on its head.
Everything that I've told younger MSLs, you know, do your due diligence, you know, log your time as an MSL. You're eventually gonna get promoted. It kind of subverted that conversation that I had had in my own expectation of when someone is qualified for that senior title. Yeah. Well and the other thing too is I think that what's important is what is your body of work?
If you are an MSL and you have 8 or 10 years of experience and success as an MSO, but your title is still medical science liaison, it's not senior, it's not principal, it's not executive, it's not director, does that mean you're any less of a candidate or an MSO than someone that has the fancy title? And the answer is no. You your body of work is going to dictate your value to the company. And I say that because I feel like a lot of people put so much into the title.
They just put so much emphasis, and they worry that, well, if I don't get the title, I'm not going to be perceived the same way. Right. But my feeling is your body of work is going to really dictate your value more than anything else. You have to remember too, a lot of other factors play into it.
It's your years of experience, what you've done in those years, where you are, and what your comp level is because you may have you may be at a higher comp than somebody that's being called the director or whatever. So there's so many nuances to it. Yeah. I mean and when it comes to, chasing that title, like, what's your opinion on that? Because I know you've spoken to a lot of people that are so insistent on getting to a title. How do you handle that?
I honestly think it's very important at the onset of a search or, you know, at any point in your career just to really do some self reflection and evaluate what's the most important thing to you because people are motivated by different things. And my advice would not be to let a title become a trap for you.
Because I think a lot of people, they're so married to the idea of a director title or that senior title or principal title that they actually don't look at an opportunity holistically for what it can offer. And we always say, Tom, like, companies are not a company and say, okay. I want a little bit of this. I want a little bit of that. Nah. I don't I'm gonna pass on this. You know, so I think you every company can offer something different.
And I do see that some individuals, in a way, they're almost holding themselves back because title becomes the end all and be all for them. So I would say don't get trapped by it. Look at an opportunity holistically. And if it makes sense for you and you put your heart and soul into that job, other opportunities will come of it, whether you're a regional medical scientific director or just an MSL.
And I think a lot of times in conversations that I have with with candidates and MSLs, I think the perception is that comp and title go hand in hand. So if you get the better title or a more senior title, you're gonna automatically get better comp, and you're not going to get it if you don't have that title. So what's your philosophy or not philosophy? What's your experience and opinion on that? Are comp and titles always directly correlated?
Honestly, Tom, I wish that were the case because it would make everything a lot more simple, but that's definitely a myth. And I I've seen that kind of theory upended and subverted time and time again in my conversations with people. I've talked to individuals that have a ton of experience, and when we get to the part of our conversation about comp and what they're looking for, they're grossly underpaid.
And I've also seen the flip side, you know, I've almost fallen out of my chair sometimes with it when MSLs with a year or 2 of experience tell me what they're making. So I had a recent experience working with a gentleman that he had probably he started his career as a clinical pharmacist in the oncology space. 10 years of experience. I mean, stellar clinical and scientific background. Sharp as attack. I mean, this guy was just like an a plus candidate.
He was working he probably had 3 years of oncology experience under his belt at a major major pharma. And I ended up working with him on an opportunity. He got promoted to a senior MSL. We ended up partnering on this opportunity that could only offer him an MSL position, but the company offered him a $30,000 increase. So he went from being a senior MSL at a major company to an MSL, but his salary got bumped up. He got an incredible package of RSUs, making that move to the other company.
So it really, again, what values in the eye of the beholder? What is important to you? Is the title really important? Or do you wanna advance your career? And he's gonna have a lot more opportunity to grow with this organization. So it just goes to show, I personally think that you shouldn't you gotta look at it holistically. You gotta look at the full picture. Yeah. The title could potentially track you at an organization for 5 years. You know? That that's my perception of it.
Well and I think that look. I I don't want to give anyone the impression that you shouldn't be motivated to advance your career. Right. And it shouldn't that you shouldn't look at the title seriously as a motivator, but sometimes companies just don't offer it. They Yeah. Just don't it's not the way they're structured. They're not set up that way.
So if they check all other boxes, meaning if it's the therapeutic area, exciting science, leadership, potential, comp, like, if the opportunity, if everything else falls into place, then I think that you would be short changing yourself if you didn't consider that because the title wasn't exactly what you wanted. And to your point, there's never the perfect scenario where I'm at x y z company, and I'm making this, my titles that, I get this, I get that.
And then when you go to leave and go to another company, it's every piece is much better. And, you know, sometimes you give a little you get, like, there's there's always a balance when you're making a move that you have to look at. I think it's important to look at the whole package. Definitely. I think it's more nuanced than we kind of initially think that it is. So it's really pulling apart an opportunity. And like you said, it's evaluating it and and in full and checking off certain boxes.
If it checks boxes, you should pursue it and see what comes with it. So when people ask, like, how do MSLs know that they're getting paid fairly? Because that's a question that comes up a lot. It does. It does. I would say breakout Google. I really think people have to do a lot of independent research, and we're in a time that there's so much available to MSLs. It's such it's such a hot career path. It's it's grown in popularity even over the past couple years.
Every pharma needs to have an MSL in the field. So with that, there are a tremendous amount of resources now available. I would say for anyone looking to get a benchmark, they should definitely check out the MSL Society because every single year, they do a poll of MSLs. I believe it's they have an international one and then they have a US based poll.
And they actually reach out to MSLs currently in the field working for all different kinds of organizations, small, large, biotech, everything under the sun, different therapeutic areas. And people are able to confidentially disclose what they're making and their title. And I think that gives a really good framework. Where do you fit into that? Okay. I have 2 to 4 years of experience. Should I be hitting that senior title? Does my comp align with most of the other MSLs that did this survey?
So I really do think that, Samuel Dyer and his group has done a good job kind of, you know, showing showing people what they a rough framework. And it's not to say that there aren't gonna be outliers or aberrations. There always will be. And rare disease tends to pay a little more. Oncology tends to pay a little more because they're just such hot therapeutic areas. But for the most part, that will give you a good footing in terms of where you're at as compared to other people.
I think as a resource, that MSL Society comp survey is the most comprehensive that I've seen available out there. And I think that they do a good job with it every year just to give people an idea based upon years of experience where you might exist. So I agree with you on that. I think one of the words one of the the words of caution that I might suggest to people is be careful not to base your feelings, comp wise, off of one conversation that you have with 1 person. So Oh, yeah.
Like, how many times do we hear, well, I talked to my friend so and so just got offered x amount of dollars working for x company, and I have more experience than she does. So therefore, I need to do I need to be here. Yeah. I would say if you're going to talk to someone, I would definitely talk to a recruiter that you trust. And it's not just because I'm a former recruiter, and we work in that industry.
But I really think it's important because a recruiter has spoken with people from all different backgrounds, all different parts of the country, all different markets, all different therapeutic areas. It's all that we do at our specific firm. All we do is talk to MSLs and medical affairs people. Mhmm. So they can give you a much better sense of I remember there's this one person, she'd worked in neuroscience for a major pharma for 25 years.
And we got to the part of our call about comp, and she said, you know, Bridget, I I really I would dip down to 165 for an MSL role. And and I remember I was flabbergasted. I'm like, why would you do that? You have 25 years of experience. Like, you're such a heavy hitter, and you have so much to bring to the table. What were you what were you last making? And she disclosed that she was closer to 200. I'm, like, why would you sell yourself short?
You know, but the only reason I knew that is because I'd had so many different conversations with people across industry, and I knew that that's where she was supposed to be. So in addition to studying, you know, the MSL Society's work, I would also talk to a medical affairs or MSL recruiter that you really trust. The other thing that's a little controversial that's gonna rock the boat a little bit is I would interview every couple years because we've seen, Tom, even just in the past 2, 3 years.
I mean, people are getting $20,000 increases, $30,000 increases, and you'll get firsthand knowledge interviewing of, am I being paid fairly at my current organization that I've been loyal to for 5 years? Mhmm. Like, I get people that they hadn't interviewed in 10 years, and I tell them where they should be and or, like, a rough framework of where they should be, and they are staggered. They're blown away.
So their comp is lagging behind because it's gotten so much more competitive in recent history. Yeah. That's great advice. And it is true. Everything you just said, I mean, I couldn't agree more, and I think that it's just practical advice. And I think that it it's important for everyone out there to just pay close attention and be involved, take a vested interest in the future of your career by just staying on top of these things.
Again, even if you're not looking, just download that survey and see what it says. And like Bridget said, every once in a while, yeah, it might not be a bad idea to get some feelers out there and just talk to talk to a recruiter. It doesn't mean you have to interview, but if you're unless you're compelled to. But just get an idea.
I also this has nothing to do with comp salaries, but I wanna this is, like, my public service announcement to just remind everybody, update your CV at least once or twice a year. You have to stay on top of it. It'll really be a great investment of of your time so that when you do need to get out there and and look, you're not far behind. So that's just that's a side note. Let's switch gears for a second. We talked about leveling and comp and titles and stuff.
But one of the things that always comes up, and we've talked about it before on this podcast. This might be a little redundant. But what career options exist for MSLs? I hear all the time. Well, am I gonna be an MSL for the rest of my life? Well, no. I mean, there's a lot of options available. So what would you say, Bridgette? Like, what are some of the things that MSLs can aspire to do? Again, I think this is such a personal question, Tom, and it's not a one size fits all type of answer.
I've worked with MSLs that they don't wanna change anything about their career. They've openly acknowledged I'm a career MSL. It is what I love to do. I will never relinquish it. I found my dream job. And then there's other people that they're curious. They wanna try to pursue something in house. They, you know, wanna branch their way into management. I would say that as an MSL, never forget your value and the things that you learn through that job and working in the field.
Because MSLs have such a highly developed skill set that's so sought after by organizations. They're amazing communicators and presenters. They're excellent relationship builders. They're problem solvers. They have an immense amount of critical thinking ability, and they have time management down down pat. I mean, there's silo workers that have to build their schedule and hit certain metrics.
So that right there, if you can really utilize your other skills that you've learned as an MSL, you could go into MSL training. You could become a manager if you've always wanted to manage direct reports. You could go into something like managed care. We're seeing more and more opportunities to flip over to the HEOR side. We're seeing organizations build out fully fledged outcomes liaison teams.
If you're more interested in working on the payer side, that could potentially be an opportunity for you. There's a ton of in house medical affairs positions available. There's medical excellence, or there's even medical director roles. If you I've had some people say, you know what? I love being in the field, but I'm really interested in clinical development. I'm really interested in the research side. I'm really interested in clinical trials.
So there's people think, oh, I'm an MSL and, you know, I'll just stay in MSL for my career. And if that's what you want, that's awesome. But there's so many different avenues that you can pursue. I I would encourage you not to pigeonhole yourself if you're curious about a different route. What would you say, Tom? No. Well, the funny thing is you I mean, you've you've touched on everything.
But I think one of the other things that you have to do is you actually have to take a step back and interview yourself. Ask yourself I like that. That you want to do next. Yeah. Do you really like to mentor people and coach people and manage people or help people? Well, then maybe you might wanna get into a more leadership role or a training role or a medical excellence type of role. Do you have a tendency to migrate towards the payer side? Do you do a lot of payer presentations?
Do you like to interact with folks on the payer side? Is that part of your job? Is that something you really like? Do you have a background in in outcomes in any way, or real world evidence or, you know, anything that might steer you in that direction? Do you want to take on more, like you said, more of a clinical role because you really like the clinical piece and maybe wanna be a clinical trial liaison versus a medical science liaison? Is that something that you wanna do?
Do you prefer to be in front of the customer? Are you customer facing, client facing where you really wanna be in front of KOLs more? I mean, you you have to decide, so you have to ask yourself these questions. How do you feel about travel? What's do you want more travel? Do you want less travel? Definitely. What what jobs are going to put you in that position where you're gonna get more or less? Definitely. So that's my feeling is that you really gotta take a step back.
Yep. I would zoom out and, like you said, assess what you're really good at. Assess, obviously, MSLs do a lot of different things. They're not just, you know, a one trick pony. They all those things that we all those skill sets that we just talked about that they've developed. What do you like the best? It could be as simple as answering that question and then pursue that avenue. Alright. So now you're an MSL. How do you get promoted? Oh, that's a that's a loaded one, Tom.
We talk about that a lot. So now we talked about all the options. How do you get there? I would say that it's probably easier. I know this is a little bit of a controversial question. Do you stay at your current organization or you try to get promoted outside of your organization? I think I personally think that it's situationally dependent, but I do believe that farmers prefer to promote internally.
I can't tell you how many times I've been working with somebody and they're up for a promotion and they get it and they're off the market, which is which is awesome. You can raise your hand internally. At that point, you're a known commodity. I think it's a lot. Pharma companies wanna put faith in somebody that they know. They've seen their work. They have internal references that they can tap into.
So I would definitely say it's probably easier to get promoted from within, and to just consistently raise your hand for additional responsibilities. I think volunteering is really important. And, you know, there's there's gonna be opportunities for you to work on different projects, to help out your manager, potentially with onboarding, hiring, putting slide decks together.
So again, it's kind of taking a personal assessment of what you like to do, and then raise your hand as opportunities arise within your own organization. And that's so important that when you set your goal and you determine what it is that you wanna be when you grow up, what do you wanna do next? So you're working as an MSL now, but you wanna get into leadership. Well, how are you going to establish yourself as or position yourself to be a qualified applicant for that role?
What are you doing to build up your transferable skills and your experience to show that you have the abilities to do that role, to take on that role? Whether it's internally through your your current manager, your your current leadership, or if you're building it up and it just so so happens that a position winds up, developing externally, because that that could happen.
And I I do I do wanna agree with you that I do think that sometimes it is a lot easier to get promoted within an organization. So you stay where you're at. You you know, work closely with leadership and make sure that they understand what your goals are. You as you said, raise your hand. Let them know that you're looking for additional responsibilities or you wanna sign up for different projects. You wanna kinda build up your background to work towards something. And then you have a goal.
And that goal is a goal that you have not just for yourself. It's with your manager. It's with your internal leadership, and they can help develop your career. Now granted, let's take a step back a second. It might be a type of situation where there may not be any room for growth in your current company. It's true. A lot of people will say, you know, I've hit the ceiling. I raise my hand. No one's putting me in coach.
I have been trying to get promoted for the past 10 years, in which case, it's time to move. In fact, it was probably time to move a long time ago. And I think there's different ways, you know, we've seen a lot of times MSLs will ask about how they bake into management. It's a tough nut to crack, but it is possible. And I would also encourage you, as you've mentioned, Tom, keep your CV updated and highlight what you've done on your CV that would parlay itself into management.
So there's a lot of different things that people do. They're like, well, I've, I've helped hire MSLs. That's something that a manager does. Right. I helped train MSLs. I've been a mentor. I've gone on ride alongs with the newer MSLs. All of these newer MSLs come to me asking questions, and I help guide them through the field. I create slide decks for my company. All of those things should be documented on your CV because you have all of the skills that a manager has.
You just don't yet have the title. But, you know, what happens is a lot of times is when you're, again, working towards an internal promotion, you're developing your skills, you've let everybody know internally that that's where you wanna go. Well okay. So your manager goes out on maternity leave or, takes a leave for whatever reason. Now they need an interim manager. You step up. They call on you. You become the interim manager. Guess what?
Now you have 3, 6, 9 months, whatever it is, of management experience. So that's that's how this works. It's not it's definitely not a sprint. It's a marathon. This is a longer term. You have to be patient. And real quick, like you said, you have to be realistic. If there is no career trajectory, if there is no next step where you're at, then you have to take a hard look and make the determination. Well, I think I might have to look someplace else. Exactly. Great info.
So here's another tough question. How many how many years of experience does an MSL need before they're gonna get considered for, like, an associate director or a manager or a leadership role? I hate to keep using the same answer, Tom, but it's not again, it's not really one size fits all. It's not cut and dry. It depends on people's experience. And when you look at a candidate, I'm a big believer in looking at people's full body of work.
So like you alluded to before, what were they doing before industry? Do they have a really amazing background in clinical pharmacy? Were they a postdoc researcher in a specific disease state for 8 years? What were they doing before industry? And then tally up what industry experience you have and go from there. I would say that 3 to 4 years in medical affairs experience, whether in house or as an MSO, I think that's a really solid foundation.
If your goal is to get into an associate director level role, I would build that foundation 3 to 4 years, and then I would start applying and start networking Yeah. For those kind of opportunities. We just worked on an associate director of medical affairs role for a global midsized pharma, and they were looking they they said their sweet spot was 3 to 7 years previous pharma experience. It could have been in MedInfo. It could have been as an MSL.
In fact, they wanted someone that had exposure in the field. So I would say, personally, probably around 4 years, it's a really good foundation, then you can kind of look for that next step. What would you what would you say? Well, I think if you really, really, really wanna know the answer to this question, you can find it, but you have to do your research.
So if you go to Google or Indeed or SimplyHired and you type up associate director of medical affairs, field medical affairs manager, MSL director, associate director of MSLs, and you look at job descriptions, it'll say it in there. Requires 5 to 7 years of industry experience or 5 to 7 years of MSL experience. It might even say, requires a minimum of 3 years of prior management experience. So if you really wanna know the answer to that, it does take time.
But if you do your research and and investigate by different title searches on the Internet, you can come up with a lot of job descriptions that will indicate and you're but here's the thing. You're gonna see all these different responses. You're gonna see 4 to 7, 5 to 7, 7 to 10, 10 to like, it's gonna vary. So to your point, you're right, Bridget. It definitely is not a one size fits all. But you can probably learn a little bit more if you really wanted to do the research.
I like that approach, Tom, and I would also encourage people don't just look at the experience, like the required experience. Look at the full job description and be really honest with yourself. Do you have those qualifications? Does that role suit you really, really well? And, I mean, I've I've heard of people in my own personal network and, you know, within medical affairs that don't apply to something because they don't feel like they're qualified. Like, oh, technically, I don't hit 7 years.
I'm not gonna apply. But maybe if they had applied and really tailored their resume to showcase that they check all of the boxes, maybe they would have gotten a look for it. So you can kinda argue it either way from from either angle. Do you see any distinction in big or small pharma as it relates to to the tendency to hire senior and associate director level candidates?
That's a tricky question in that the larger the pharma you figure, the more opportunities that should be available, the more therapeutic areas, the more paths that you can go down. And I do see people that transition from senior MSL roles and eventually, you know, branch into a different type of position just by sheer size of the organization. They have all of these different compounds and development. They have all these different departments.
They have all of these different things that a person could pursue. The one thing that I will say, they also have more infrastructure and they have more training, which is tremendously valuable. But the one thing I will say about smaller companies is there's a flexibility there that you don't often see. Sometimes people have described feeling like a kind of like a cog in the wheel of large pharma, and they apply, they apply, they apply.
And like HR, they just they're not their application is not getting pushed forward. Whereas at a smaller organization, there's more visibility and there's more flexibility because it's a smaller team. So you're kinda highlighted at a smaller company, and you can wear a lot of different hats and maybe build your resume up in certain categories that, you know, if you're fulfilling a very specific function for a major pharma, you're kinda in that one lane.
So I think it's very situationally dependent, and I hate to keep coming back to that answer, but there's pros and cons to either or. You're right. And and look, that unfortunately, that is the answer. The answer that it it really does vary, which means as a job seeker, you have to be nimble enough to do your homework and to really survey the landscape for what opportunities exist at what companies, whether they're small, large. But you also have to decide.
Again, this is where you get back to the self reflection. I have people that come to me all the time and say, Tom, I do not wanna work for large pharma. Well, okay. That that takes that out of the equation. Right. And that's fine. It's totally fine. Sometimes people say, I really wanna work for a smaller company because I wanna be able to wear a lot of hats and be involved with the ground up, and that's what's next for me.
So determine what it is that's on your wish list, and what's gonna make you happy in your next role. I couldn't agree more. Again, that self reflection and being honest with yourself, I think, is just really imperative to find a job that really makes you happy. Alright. Last question, and I'm gonna throw another hard one at you because that's what we're doing today. How do you overcome the experience barrier?
Meaning, maybe you don't have the required experience that is necessary for that promotion for that next step. What do you do in that situation? Yeah. The experience barrier is definitely a real thing even after you do the heavy lifting of breaking into the MSO role, which we know that can be a real marathon for people that sometimes can take years. You get into the MSO role and then how do you elevate your career from there?
I would say one thing that can really help you is to never lose a networking mindset. So at your current organization, like we said, MSLs have a lot of different touch points. They're on the field, but they interact they tend to interact in a very made matrix fashion and engage with a lot of different internal stakeholders, you know. So I think it's really important to build connections with those individuals and tap them for opportunities down the road.
Don't forget to talk to people in different departments, build relationships while you're at that organization. Another thing too is don't lose sight of working with former colleagues that you had from different MSL teams or a previous manager that goes on to a different organization.
I think the power of networking is everything when you're looking to take that next step because I've seen people get jobs by giving their resume to the right person at the right time, and that person knows them and is an internal advocate for them. They give it to the right person in HR, and it's they're a known commodity. So they get hired almost by word-of-mouth. Awesome. Bay, you are the best.
We have to leave it here, but I did I tell you, this is really great information, and I hope it helps people. I hope people listen to this, and it inspires them or maybe gives them a little tidbit of information to help them develop in their career. So I'm gonna on behalf of everybody that's listening, I wanna thank you for all your awesome insights and for coming back on. You're the best. Thank you, Tom. It was it was great.
It's one of my top, you know, frequent conversations with people, and I hope it helps kind of dispel a lot of the myths that are out there and just help people take that next step. And, you know, we're certainly here to help any MSLs out there that could use a little bit more advice beyond this episode. We are. That's what we do. That's what we love to do. So thanks, everybody. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.