Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Amanda Vaughn. She is a soon to be medical science liaison with Aglia Biotherapeutics, and she tells her story of how she landed her first MSL position from an internal role. Really interesting conversation. Amanda's lovely. I think you guys are gonna really like this. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, YouTube, and, of course, Instagram.
And check us out on MSL talk live on Clubhouse, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. Thanks so much. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Amanda. How are you? Welcome. I'm doing great, Tom. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm absolutely thrilled to be here. Well, I'm excited. I'm excited. You have an awesome story, and I can't wait for you to tell it.
So before we get into that, why don't you do an intro so that everybody knows who you are, and we'll get started like we normally do. Excellent. So Amanda Vaughn, PhD. I'm about to become an MSL for Aglia Biotherapeutics. And before I begin, I would like to explain that my opinions are of my own and not of my company.
So, to get us started, before I tell you my, background and how I, am going to become an MSL, I do also wanna say that as an individual and a human being, I am very left brain, right brain balanced. I have a very strong practice in the arts and a creative exercise, but I also am a scientist by training, and I've always thought of my work as, science focused.
Yeah. So, so I went to grad school for biochemistry, and I studied neural tube development and birth defects in a mouse model and a lot of, biochemistry work in addition to that that looked at the folate pathway and folate supplementation for pregnant mothers. And from grad school, I, I actually got a position working for our technology commercialization office at University of Texas, where I went to school.
And that opportunity was excellent for introducing me to the landscape of biotech and understanding what, biotech opportunities were available in the world. And that's where I actually learned about what an MSL position was because at this point, I'm a big people person. I do not like being, you know, stuck in the lab exclusively. I loved the opportunity at the technology commercialization office with, you know, engaging, with external, private sector companies.
So, so, yes, from office of technology commercialization, I lily padded over to getting a job at Aglia. And I know we're gonna get into all of the nitty gritty down there. We're gonna get into that. But, I mean, first off, that's great. I love the combination. I love how you explain that you have this artistic side, and you also have this scientific side. So I appreciate you kinda explaining a little bit about yourself. And I wanna hear your story.
I wanna hear how this whole thing kinda came together. I know a lot of other people do. Gotta do a quick shout out to, really important to our friends in Ireland. So last week, we jumped up in the rankings to, like, number 4 in the careers category in Ireland. So we have a I apparently have, a huge group of folks that are listening. So I just wanna say hello to all of our friends in Ireland and appreciate you guys for, you know, for joining us. So let's get into so we have your background.
Right? But you became an, I believe, an associate scientist at AGLIA. How did that happen? How did you break into that role in industry? So to get into to get into the private sector is very challenging for grad students because, generally, as PhDs, we're trained to be academics and to be professors. And I think that a job in industry, is very coveted. There's not very many of those positions either.
So, honestly, working at the technology commercialization office was really key for that because I was directly dealing with a lot of these companies, and I also networked a lot within the university as well. And, my company was actually started by a professor at my alma mater at University of Texas. So I had some connections. I definitely, made sure that I knew someone that was working there before I applied, and I contacted them directly.
I set up a call, and that was in tandem with actually, you know, applying and submitting my application. I also made a personal connection with someone that I remembered from grad school who had been working at the company. So in in one word, networking more than anything else. Right? I mean, you did apply, but you didn't just apply.
There was a whole networking aspect that went around it, you know, that that came along with it that made you stand out so that it wasn't just an application on a website. Correct? Exactly. And and you're a big fan, I know this, of really giving personality, to your application, writing an additional thank you note, you know, contacting individuals directly, maybe via LinkedIn and just letting them know that you appreciate them. I think that, you know, personal contact is key.
You can't get a job without it. I listen. I talk about it all the time. And and one of the things I love about your story is that it it's an example of how well it works, and it's an example. And we're gonna continue to talk, obviously, but these are all really good examples of implementing the right best practices for a job search.
So but before we get too far into it, did you know you wanted to be an MSL when like, was that a career aspiration of yours, or were you just like, ah, I'm just gonna get this job as a scientist and see what happens? No. For sure. When I discovered that a medical science liaison was a job, again, I was at the office of technology commercialization. I had finished my PhD. I felt like it was a dream job and such a far reach.
And just the fact that the term medical, you know, was in the job title, and I have no clinical background. I mean, it's not totally true because we worked with spina bifida. I did work, occasionally in a clinic with my PI. But aside from that, that was just, you know, more of my personal engagement in the clinical world. It was not a professional, involvement. So I really did have my eye on an MSL role when I joined Aglia, but, I knew that I needed to work with what I was familiar with.
And it was already a large leap to go from an academic exclusive academic background to, an industry position. So I just wanted to kind of make a logical step from there, and do what I was good at and then network once I was within the company. It's so smart. It's awesome. And it's another one of those things that I like to talk about is sometimes you have to get a stepping stone position.
You have to get a, you know, a a first entry level type of industry position, and maybe not even industry position, but a a role within the, the a field that can lead to and help you develop transferable skills and experience that can lead to an MSL position. Exactly. And that's who you did. So you knew you wanted to be an MSL. You take this, like, stepping stone kinda role, and then you wind up you know, so you're you're at a glia.
You get this job through networking, and you interviewed, and everything went great. So now what? So now you're like, okay. Well, I wanna be an MSL. So how did you, like, how did you go about your job? How did you build up your resume? And how did you stand out and do things that were gonna help the next portion of your career? So that's a really great question. I wanna also add how did I do that during COVID because not everyone was in the office, obviously.
Being part of the research team, we were in the lab every day. So we were a bit of an island. The rest of the company was virtual. As everyone knows, you know, an MSL role is traditionally remote anyways. And so it was it was extremely, like, opposite sides of the company, if you will. But I think that just being a member of the team, the greater team at my company, and understanding the culture, knowing my tools to network within the company was really key. We use Teams for a lot.
And so, I actually stepped up and volunteered to, in addition to my lab work, lead a monthly talk series, where I would engage with someone in a different department or a different field within the company and have sort of a similar, conversation like this where I would ask them questions and lead them through a conversation. Sometimes we would have some PowerPoint slides.
And it was just a really good opportunity for me to get my presence known within the company because I would see you know, if if people did come into the office, they'd already know who I was. And even though, you know, I was just a scientist in the lab that, you know, normally would not have had interaction with them, I was on their radar, so to speak. Awesome. So how much of this was just your own creativity and and stepping out of the box?
And how much of it just kinda developed for you where you know? Because I guess I guess my question more is how much of it was proactive versus how much of this was reactive? I'd say it was all proactive. That's a so and I'm not trying to toot my own horn. No. I just I just think about, you know, the way it could have been, almost like this parallel universe.
And if I just, you know, went to lab every day and just got, you know, the minimum work done and went home and didn't really talk to people, or engage or ask questions, ask people if they wouldn't mind talking to me, which they oddly, people always wanna talk about themselves. I'm always surprised by that. But just letting someone know that you're interested in a in a possible career, you know, direction, I think is really important.
And early on, I let my boss know that I was, you know, very interested in a medical role, and I had early on also begun conversations with a couple people on the medical affairs team. I think it's so important. I really I I I just very rarely at this stage of your career, and everybody else that's out there that might be a PhD or a PharmD or even an MD that is pursuing an MSO role, very early in your career, people aren't coming to you.
Mhmm. Maybe when you land an MSO position, you've been in MSO for for 2 years, 3 years, 4 years. Now all of a sudden, your phone starts ringing, and recruiters are contacting you, and companies are contacting you because they may have a vested interest in your background, your skill set, and they have an open position that they're looking to fill. But until you break into the role, it really falls on you.
And the fact that you were proactive, I think, made a huge difference in you making progress and positioning yourself for the role. So let's talk about that. So now what happens next? So, I've not begun the role yet, but but, so oh, you mean what what happens next? What happens at that point? So how did you find out that a position was you said that you you raised your hand, told your boss that you're interested in MSL roles. Yes. But so did did a position apply did you apply to a position?
Did a position get posted? How did you learn of this opportunity? So we're a small pharma company. We don't have a large amount of we only have a team of 5 MSLs total, and so I was not anticipating anyone, you know, leaving or, vacating a role anytime in the near future.
Again, it felt like a stretch, but I still felt like it was important just to establish myself, you know, within the world of MSLs, join, the MSL Society and listen to your podcast and, just get as, you know, in the right mindset as possible. So when a a rare possibility occurred and a spot opened up, I I honestly was contacted by, you know, the potential boss that I would be having, who let me know.
I you know, we've already, you know, developed a relationship, and I would like to let you know that this position's available. And so knowing knowing that I already had, you know, developed the connection without really expecting anything in return, I think, was a great that was a great stepping stone to getting the role. But, yeah, a a position opened up. I applied for it.
They let me know I would have an interview, but they also expanded, they opened up the application to, you know, the externally to the general public, and there was a pretty, high amount of interest in the role as well. So I was up against some experienced MSLs as well. So you obviously whatever you were doing to in your role, at a glia as a associate scientist to stand out, it worked because you got tapped on the shoulder, and people noticed what you were doing.
And you had this opportunity to interview for this MSL position that just came up and compete against others. So now how did you prepare? How did you prepare for the process and for the interview? This is where I'm just gonna let my hair down a little bit and just kinda tell you my personality. Like I said, I have a very strong, creative streak. And, for me, that balances and actually nurtures my left brain brain at science aspects of my personality.
So, I I, honestly, I gave myself what I needed, which was to get up really early and do a good yoga practice. I rehearsed. I really think that just like in grad school, if you're going to give a talk, you're lucky that you know what the topic is in advance, and you should practice excessively exhaustively in the in the days leading up. The day of, no practice, I think, because, you know, usually your first time going through it. I mean, everyone potentially is different.
But for me, I practiced at least twice to 3 times a day for about a week. And then when it came time to actually give the talk, I was so relaxed. And, but yes. So my hair down aspect was in between interviews because sometimes these all day virtual interviews can be really exhausting. I actually, like, sang karaoke in my house alone and just just tried to, you know, feel happy. And I think being happy is a really important, way to, you know, convey to people that you actually want the position.
Because if you're so stiff and scared and nervous and you're not being yourself, then you really can't you're not you're not a good, competitor for the role. Good candidate. That's awesome. I love it. So I very rarely get that kinda character. Usually, people don't tell me the part where they're singing in the shower. You know? You just I love the the I'm gonna let my hair down and just kinda tell you the whole story. So what was the process like for you? You know?
So you talked about how you prepared for the presentation. So, obviously, the presentation is a huge part of the interview process for an MSL. But what about the rest of it? I mean, what else can you tell folks? And and I also would love to hear how competitive was it. Like, what did you learn along the way about the competition that you were up against? Well, initially, I'll I'll tackle that last question first in reverse order.
Honestly, initially, I thought it was just gonna kinda be a quick transition into the role because a lot of internal transitions are that way in companies where you just and I had spoken to other people with corporate positions. You know? Because I'm I'm semi new to the corporate world as well. Like, this is only I will be right at 1 year in the company, this month. So, I I wasn't sure how easy it would be.
But it turns out that instead of being sort of a backfill, they opened it up, like I said. And so there was a a very high number of other candidates. And that was a little stress inducing, but I tried to not let let it get me down. And I just gave it my all, and I was myself and tried to be relaxed. But I'd say the other ways that I prepared, it it was an all day interview.
So, you know, I had one on ones scheduled throughout the day, and, I already had known at this point that I was ready to get out of the lab. I I knew when I entered the position when I entered the company that I, you know, was not gonna wanna be in the lab long term, but it was a great opportunity, like I said, to get my foot in the door. But I was actually interviewing for a number of other roles at the same time.
And so I think having a number of interviews going on at the same time and, actually leading up to that final big MSL interview was really helpful for me because I was able to get super comfortable in my own skin, comfortable with the virtual interface. And, I just by the time my MSL interview came along, I just relaxed, and I said the same you know? I I every time you go through this experience, you get a little better.
You fine tune and polish your words, and and you can really just be more comfortable. So I think practice is key, again, you know, not only with the actual presentation, but just with, like, explaining yourself. You need to be able to talk about yourself comfortably. Totally. I'm a big, big advocate of practice and preparation. But what would you say do you have any advice for folks on what would you say you did to help, like, to outshine the competition?
Obviously, you had to beat out more experienced people. Was there anything that you can say that made you stand out more than others? So I have a very odd and mixed sort of mosaic background, in terms of, you know, my left and right brain, you know, tendencies, if you will. And so I've had experience living abroad, and learning other languages. And, I the one that everyone always loves, which honestly was such a blip in my life, but it was odd. I sold art on a cruise ship for a little while.
And so I think not hiding those parts of myself, like, and just actually weaving them into my story and, you know, accenting how they're actually, you know, assets to have and how I can transition these skills that I learned from being an art auctioneer or from learning Chinese into being a good, human being and a good candidate for the role. I think just really being yourself and and just realizing how important that is and how how beneficial that is, you know, for the company to hire you.
Because interviews are not just about you pleasing them. You want them you you want to know that you're a good fit for the role, you know, from your perspective as well. Totally. And I think that the authenticity piece is often missing with people in interviews. So if you can bring without getting weird and unprofessional, but if you can bring a sense of true self and authenticity into the interview process, you get to really connect with people and make stronger connections. Do you agree?
Oh, totally. Yeah. Be yourself. And if you practice enough, then you can relax, and then you have nothing to worry about because they wanna get through that outer shell that you're presenting and really know who is this person inside because that person will inevitably emerge within months and, I mean, you know, years of working together. So what lessons did you learn through this process, and and what advice would you give others that are going through the same sort of thing?
Don't be afraid to ask questions because sometimes asking a question will lead to, you know, an answer that you weren't expecting. You you need to just kind of offer yourself to the universe if you really wanna do something. And even if you don't think it's possible to get a role, like, you know, how I was coming from a strict academic background, the fact that I thought that within a year, I could get an MSL role seemed very far fetched. So don't sell yourself short and ask questions.
So now tell everybody what's going on with you now. So you get this job, and have you started yet? Like, is it are you in training? Like, what happens next? Alright. So first of all, I'm so honored to be on this podcast among, you know, the library, the collection of other wonderful medical affairs professionals that you've had on here because I'm not really officially a medical affairs professional yet.
But I am finishing up my, my job that I'm currently doing in the lab this week, and then I will take a week off to sort of clean clean the slate. And then I begin my role as an MSL, next week the following week after next. So very excited to get started. I was able to actually take part in a journal club meeting today with the medical affairs team. So I'm already getting a sense of what the dynamics are like within the team, and I'm just I'm very excited. It's like the first day of school.
I have a fresh backpack and everything. So Well, that's awesome. I am so happy for you, and I'm so proud of you. I don't know you that long, but I'm super proud of you for what you've been able to accomplish. I personally wanna wish you all the luck in the world. I wanna follow your journey and have you back on. You've been a tremendous guest. I'd love to have you back on and see maybe a year from now or 2 years from now what you've learned, what you can share with others.
But I know that, collectively, everybody that's listening to this right now is totally rooting for you, and we wanna see big things from you, and we wanna keep in touch. I will try to deliver. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to get back on the radio. I have that's another thing I forgot to mention. Yeah. Tell us about your radio show. Oh, so I throughout grad school, I was, on the student run radio program that we had at UT KBRX 91.7, and I just love, talking, obviously.
So, I think for me, the radio was an excellent opportunity to just practice speaking and communicating my ideas. I would always try to weave in something scientific even if it was a more music focused show, because I I like to DJ as well. I'm telling you, I have a lot of interests. I think nurturing your interest is a really important part of being authentic. So, but, anyways, sorry. I I digress.
Yeah. The the other radio show that I should have mentioned that I did was called They Blinded Me with Science, and we would interview other, academics at the university that we're working on, you know, different projects. So yeah. Well, I'll tell you, you're quite a character, Amanda. You really are, And it's obviously working for you. So, once again, I appreciate you coming on. I'm sorry for the banging in the background. There's someone doing work in my office. But, all the best to you.
Best wishes for your careers at MSL, and, we're gonna have you back soon for sure. So Thanks for everything. Thanks for providing this resource. This is fantastic. Happy to do it. I love it. So, thanks again for joining me, and good luck. We'll talk to you soon. Okay. Take care. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.