Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guests today are Linda Traylor, senior principal, and Rena Patel, director of medical affairs at IQVIA. And we discussed KPIs and the importance of qualitative outcomes. These guys are awesome. I think you guys are really gonna love this conversation. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. Check us out on our YouTube channel, as well as MSL talk live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
And keep in mind, we're gonna probably change the format and go on LinkedIn live. So more to come. We'll put announcements on LinkedIn. Hope you guys enjoy this. Thanks for joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey there, Linda and Rina. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you guys for joining me. Hi, Kyle. Yeah. I'm so excited to have you guys on.
This is a milestone MSL talk podcast episode because, IQVIA is our first official sponsor. So what that means is I get to say really nice things about IQVIA, but it's not gonna be hard because they're awesome. As a matter of fact, Fortune Magazine ranked IQVIA one of the top one of the world's, best companies to work for 5 consecutive years in a row. So awesome organization. Definitely encourage you guys to check them out atiqvia.com.
And I would even encourage you to consider applying to MSL positions on their website. If you're an MSL leader, and you're building an MSL team, I would definitely reach out, and contact these guys. But more importantly, they are a leader in the industry, in human data sciences. They have a huge CRO, data analytics, and they're also building out a ton of functions in the medical fair space. So I'm really honored to have you guys as our first sponsor.
And I'm excited to talk to you guys about KPIs. Anyone so just to give you guys a little background, this came this topic came up. Linda and I were talking at MAPS this year. And I said, we gotta do a this is a podcast. We should have recorded this, and this will be a podcast. So here we are. I'm gonna stop talking because I wanna let Linda and Rena introduce themselves so that we can get into this. So, Rena, why don't you go first? Yeah. So I'm Rena Patel.
I'm the director here of field medical affairs at IQVIA. So I'm actually an MD by training and I started off my career in clinical research. After clinical research, I did some hospital training. Then most recently prior to, entering, industry, I worked in academia. But while I was actually working in academia, I really knew I wanted to be an MSL, and it was a struggle to, you know, break into industry, like, a lot of people are realizing. So I had to do a lot of research.
I took some courses that were offered to kinda get a better understanding of the role in medical affairs in general to make sure it was a good fit for me. I also, during that time, built my neck, network of current MSLs. Kinda reached out through LinkedIn and spoke to as many MSLs, that I could at the time. And I finally actually broke into my 1st MSL role here at IQVIA. I started off my career, in industry at IQVIA as an MSL.
And from there, I kind of worked my way up, to my current role, which again is field medical affair which director of field medical affairs at IQVIA. So I'm really excited. I love that story. I love that story. And that's what this is all about. And we you know, I I I hope that people are listening or inspired by that, and and can follow that path if that's where your heart wants to take you into the medical affairs space. So Linda, how about you?
Yeah. First of all, I met Rina before I joined IQVIA through the MSL society. And that's a fun story that maybe we'll get to a little bit later. But Linda Praylor, I am, new ish to IQVIA. I joined in January of this year, but I'm not new to industry. I'm gonna go ahead and just say it out loud and date myself. I entered industry back in the late nineties after my postdoc at Duke University.
And I have been do I started out kind of like Rena in clinical research and regulatory affairs in house and cell therapy and medical device space. I've done, I don't know, MSL stands for 2 or 3 companies. I've been, you know, leader of MSL teams and department head, in my most recent job before joining IQVIA. And so I've had a long career and a and a varied career, and and I've done multiple therapeutic areas.
And and, really, most of my decision making in my career development has been around challenging myself and gaining new experiences to just get better. And, I really love this profession. I've stuck to it for the last 20 years, in the medical affairs mostly space. And, and I, you know, started I love this profession so much.
I started, being part of professional societies that finally started to materialize just about a decade or so ago through the MSL Society, the Medical Affairs Professional Society, where we've interacted in both places, actually. And what I think one of the things I love about this community and profession is, that it is a bit of a community and a family, and it's a small world.
I mean, we're running into each other at these conferences, and and it's like seeing each other and continuing a conversation. And, I also love paying it forward because somebody helped me, so I think it I believe in, you know, helping others who are along a similar path as you.
And, I also love, working with people like you, Tom, that are about bettering the profession because even though that, it indirectly and directly affects what you do, by getting better candidates and a better quality of professional, it helps the industry as a whole. And, I love this. I love the podcast that you've developed. I think you the hard work and your work ethic show and the quality of this podcast. And so I'm very happy to be here.
And, you've the I'll tell you there's so much unpacking there. I am so excited to have you guys on. And I just wanna say that if you if you guys listen to both Rina and Linda, they use the word networking. That's how this whole thing happened. That's how people get jobs. That's how we've been able to keep in touch. And my favorite, favorite, favorite part of this job is the relationships that I've been able to develop, the people that I've been able to meet.
When I go to these can I talk about going to conferences all the time on this podcast? I I love it. I'm like a little kid. You know why? Because I get to see my friends, and I get to have good conversations, and then we get to make stuff like this happen. So without further ado, we are gonna talk about KPIs, which are also known as metrics, which is an interesting word because everybody has their own take on what this looks like. There's no standard in medical affairs.
So this is something that you're gonna get a lot of different opinions on. But I really value the 2 opinions that we're gonna hear today. But before I think before we get into a full blown conversation, there there might be a lot of people that are listening to this that don't really know what KPIs or metrics are. So, Linda, why don't you tell everybody what KPIs mean?
Absolutely. So KPIs, it's actually stands for key performance indicators, and it is somewhat of an industry standard term even though there aren't really industry standards on defining them for every company. They so key performance indicators are just kind of what the title means. They are measures of, measuring performance with specific types of indicators.
And and the medical industry, for the most part, those performance indicators stem around revenue and product, on the commercial side of business and at the leadership level.
But on the, medical side of business where we have to bring, value to the organization through less quantitative metrics because we are directly connected to the safety and well-being of patients, it there's a inherent conflict of interest in using, things like revenue and, the product, scripts and things like that to measure the medical or MSL specifically performance. And so this this topic of KPIs and and how to apply them to MSLs is a hot topic.
It's been a hot topic for as long as the industry has been around, and it still is going to continue because the types of ways we can measure KPIs is just it's growing, and it's going to evolve. It's never gonna be a defined thing that, you know, everybody can reference it. This is what a KPI should be for an MSL. So it's gonna be a great conversation today. It's so true. And it's this is hard. It's you know, on the sales side, when I was a sales rep, it was easy.
They would just take the ZIP codes that you were responsible for, and they pull prescriptions that were, you know, the results of the prescriptions that were, you know, purchased in those areas, and that's how you came up with your numbers. It was based on sales. But in the medical affairs space, it doesn't work that way. So you have to have something else to be able to show what is the value and how do you track things. So I use the term metrics. And, Linda, you just explained what a KPI was.
Are they the same thing? So, yeah, this is a tricky one since the terms metrics and KPIs are often used interchangeably, as we see, right, in conversations, but they're really not the same thing. Metrics are plentiful, and they capture multifaceted areas of performance, such as activity, impact, quality kind of versus quantity, and they're capturing they're actually capturing where we are today in accomplishing our performance objectives. Right?
But KPIs now move more around where we will end up, right, based on these key indicators that we have. So KPIs should actually enable and enact decision making. In other words, so in other words, metrics measure process or progress, and KPIs are laser focused on those strategic objectives. They're not mutually exclusive, and in sometimes, we do find that metrics actually do become KPIs in some instances. Got you. Yep. That's awesome. Because, you know, I'll tell you.
That's well, I think a lot of people look confused by those terms, but that really puts it into perspective. Now the question I have for you, Linda, you know, you've been doing this a long time, and I know you've been with different organizations. Is there any standards that exist, you know, in industry? And I know that, you know, we look at there's you mentioned medical affairs, professional society and the MSL society.
So there's there's entities out there, but are there really any standards for this stuff? Yeah. So I think the answer is yes. And some standards in the sense of defining what the MSL role is at a high level, setting some of the boundaries and restrictions on what MSLs can and cannot do and maintain compliance, maintaining, you know, activities that ensure patient outcomes and safety, related issues. There's a lot of compliance around the MSL role.
But in terms of standards, you know, MSL society has some guidelines on, you know, defining what MSL role is, and that is, foundational to their their certification program. MAPS has an incredible number of white papers and educational resources on, you know, thought leaders giving their feedback on what, how to measure KPIs for an MSL.
But I would say most companies have to, you know, combine what they know about what the MSL role is, what can and cannot do, and what are the corporate objective, high level strategy, what is the medical strategy.
They have to be transparent in all of these to combine what the guidelines say MSL can and cannot do, and what the corporate objectives are, and come up with, these ways of measuring and ensuring that the MSLs bring something to the table for furthering the business, but also ensuring, patients' lives are improved. Got it. Yeah. So then how does a company establish KPIs, and what is most important to track? What activities?
So I think establishing proper or meaningful KPIs are challenging since they can vary depending on strategic objectives, right, for the product or device. And these objectives, actually, they might change quarterly. Right? And they're all, they're also dependent on where the product or device is in the product life cycle.
So, regarding some KPIs that are important, I guess, our number of interactions, the insights, and how thought leaders how the relationship with these thought leaders are advancing. And that can be done via, surveys or even internal trackers that companies have.
I guess I would add also to that because that's exactly you know, that's she hit the nail on the head, and I think it's this combination, and we have to be able to capture the day in the life of MSL through metrics to set some expectations for performance. But at the same time, it has to be, it has to be not just the quantitative type of measures.
There has to be some level of measuring what, you know, MSLs are tasked with building relationships and communicating a scientific and clinical outcomes and measuring the value of that is not always quantitative. And so there needs to be some, you know, melding of the 2. Yeah. Well, that's as you're as you're saying that, it, you know, it makes me think. So how do you align those 2? How do you align the quantitative versus the qualitative in your same set of KPIs?
Yeah. I I I mean, that's a great point, because, you know, companies one of the things that is it's an imperative for companies to do, and that is overcommunicate. Overcommunicate corporate objectives. Medical affairs leaders need to be transparent of what the medical strategy is. And all MSLs need to be open to personal growth. And I think so marrying all of these together, is where sort of the art art of putting together KPIs exist.
That's where leaders have to, really figure out how to balance this. And so in my opinion, this is Linda Traylor's opinion, the key ingredients to establishing and lining qualitative and quantitative metrics is really it involves it means involving the MSLs in the process. Making sure the leader should align with their peers at the leadership level, at the corporate level, but bring the MSL into the story.
It gives them ownership, and it gives them a say in how they're bringing value, to the organization as well as ensuring, you know, that they're improving the lives of patients through engaging clinicians. And so I think they need to have a say. And I think sometimes where companies maybe miss the mark is not involving MSLs in the development of the KPIs, but also getting that independent review.
So, you know, engaging their cross functional team members and aligning, making sure their their their department goals are aligned to the, you know, the other, you know, peer department goals, but also a potentially even outsourcing the development of KPIs. Because a lot of organizations such as IQV will offer, offerings that support the development of KPIs with an independent view to it. Yeah. For sure.
And just for those that are that are following along that aren't 100% sure what all this means, it's very simple. A quantitative metrics would relate to, like, the number of visits. It's based on quantity. Qualitative would be the quality of the interaction, you know, pretty self explanatory. And and even in the topic of this episode, we talk about how important the qualitative piece of it is and how important you want to influence the quality of the visit, not just the number of visits.
So that being said, what really, what qualitative outcomes should MSLs be hopeful for? So I see qualitative as impact. Right? So the quality of information, let's say, for example, quality contained in continuing medical education, is going to be more subjective and complex to measure compared to the quantitative ones. Right? As you said, the number of interactions or the number of topics.
So, certainly, every program, therapeutic area, and molecule will have different objectives that they want to, want to get to. And then quality metrics will be used to understand, thought leaders' understanding for those actual disease states. So, for example, unassisted awareness of disease, symptomology, or maybe it's important to assess satisfaction after speaker training programs or even satisfaction of the MSLs and the information they received.
There might also be a critical need to ensure the patients are referred, are referred to the right specialist, right, in the outcome. So it's really important to understand those objectives to get to those qualitative outcomes and to be able to measure them. Got you. Awesome. So would you say that KPIs are a way to assess value in the MSL or performance? So this is a great conversation point, Tom, because I I think it's yes to both.
Okay. So I would say, just as Rena said, value is is connected to the impact, the outcome, what you're trying to achieve. Mhmm. Whereas performance is connected to the MSL and how they get there. Right. And so and and I think KPIs have to be a mixture of both.
The and and going back to a little bit of what Rena was saying, quantitative, you you have to have some level of quantitative because there's expectation setting at, you know, at a department level in terms of days in field and number number of visits, length of it. We try to get, you know, surrogate markers of quality through some of the quantitative, such as, say, a length of meeting. If it's longer meeting that, you know, suggests that you are having a quality conversation.
Not always, but it could suggest it. Right? The whether or not you get a follow-up meeting. Those are the types of quantitative measures that potentially could give you an idea of quality. But the value is how that information exchange is then used for clinicians in practice, using your product, improving the lives of patients. And that is, has a high dependency on a lot of variables at the corporate level, at the department level, and at the MSL level.
And we can't overlook the performance of MSLs because that, ultimately, the MSLs value should serve the patient, which is why we need to layer in patient level data and real world data into the KPIs, which we can talk a little bit later about. Yeah. That's awesome. And every time you go to one of these conferences, there's always the conversation or the topic of how do MSLs bring value. So you just covered it.
So if anybody is interested in that conversation, you in a nutshell, you just covered it. So awesome stuff. So let's talk about the impact of COVID 19, how the pandemic changed the face of KPIs. So how it changed it, and then where is it going? I'm curious to see where we go from here. So yeah. So prior to COVID, there was a lot of talk, on quantitative versus qualitative KPIs. Right? And how there really needs to be a push for the latter, so for the qualitative KPIs.
And COVID, I think, really accelerated that. Right? In the beginning, of COVID, we had minimal these MSLs had minimal interactions, but leadership at the end was still asked to actually show the impact. So we really had to go like, to go and think to think about how to evaluate, think hard on how to evaluate our KPIs regularly and to make sure that they were really aligned with our goals, right, and to see what was happening around us.
We needed to make sure that every interactions MSLs were having was meaningful and that they were able to actually capture actionable insights, and they were able to answer the questions, right, thought leaders had. So, in the long run, I think the pandemic has definitely been good for KPIs. Okay? But I do think KPIs will continue to evolve and that our focus on quality and impact is gonna move us in a direction of measuring outcomes.
Our role we have to remember our role as an industry is to really make the world a healthier place, and our MSLs are these conduits to these HCPs to educate and gather insights, and those are and those HCPs are actually the ones that are treating the patients. So, we have to value that relationship that they have. Right. Awesome. Yeah. Well, and I just I think that just the pure nature of not being able to travel had to have had an effect on it, and there's still less travel.
So how does does that play a big factor in this equation? So I think we need to kinda, I guess, take a step back here and remember that, the MSL's role is to be storytellers. Right? So, with thought leaders and the health care system being bogged down, you know, with this pandemic, time with these thought leaders is of the essence. So, right now, they might only have 15 to 20 minutes on a virtual call.
And but it's the fact that do they have the right information to discuss that's meaningful to the thought leader. Right? And that's where impact measures are more important than ever. Because it isn't always the number of interactions or the length of these interactions. It is whether the MSLs are able to deliver that information needed in a concise way. And that's why quality of the interaction is much more important than quantity. Yeah. So I guess the answer sorry. Go ahead.
Yeah. No. No. No. You know, it's but it's it's interesting that you should say that because we're talking about a virtual what we we're coming from a virtual environment, but still being able to provide quality even though you're not live is what you're saying. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely. So just providing that quality is that's why the KPIs are getting pushed to more of these qualitative metrics.
You're gonna see more of these qualitative metrics that compose KPIs as opposed to quantitative metrics. Yeah. And as we move forward, Linda, curious as to what you're feeling on the virtual and digital engagement aspect of the MSL of the future and how KPIs are gonna play a factor in that? Yeah. I think I mean, this is the topic of every medical affairs leader and MSL team right now is during the pandemic, we were forced to level up our soft skills. Right?
Because, face to face engagement for the last decade, there's been this balance of, you know, corporate objective based KPIs versus individual performance based KPIs and developing soft skills and being good storytellers and communicators of that information.
And now you layer in the, an environment, the digital and virtual environment that, impacts the the way in which we read our audience and and the amount of time we have and whether or not, you know, you it can force somebody to turn on their camera or not. And, you know, all of these variables impact a a lot of the things we learned, for our soft skills and and, nonverbal cues for engaging HCP. So it's just made it more complicated.
So it's forced us to kind of level up our soft skills, I think, is probably the biggest thing, that that has come from a forced virtual environment. And now that we're moving forward, it's gonna be at least hybrid. So those skills will only make your face to face engagements better, I think, because you've gotten better at active listening and really paying attention to the conversation, because of the limitations of the virtual world.
That's only gonna make your face to face interactions better, I think. So now that we're moving back to a hybrid model, which is gonna be that's gonna be the case for the foreseeable future. I I just feel like the performance of the MSL is only gonna get better. Yeah. And, Rena, what what advice do you have for MSLs to stay focused and stay on track as it relates to their their KPIs?
So I think a good way to stay focused and on track would be regular, whether it's weekly or monthly, review of their field tactical plans, right, to make sure that their tasks and actions that they're doing are aligning with their goals and objectives.
Because we know when you're in the field, it's so easy to get distracted, you know, with activities in the field that are not related to your overall goals, and then they're they are gonna get, sidetracked, and they're not gonna get the outcomes that they wish that they were getting in the field. Yeah. What about you, Linda? How did what's your what's your thought? I'm curious to hear about how you keep people motivated too on top of your advice for staying on track.
But what what's your philosophy on trying to keep people motivated? Yeah. I you know, usually, when I'm engaging, a team of MSLs, my you know? So I have a lot of little one liners that I kind of live by. One of them is just work hard and be nice. Right? Just you you gotta you gotta work hard to to do be well, but also kinda know thyself that coming from the matrix.
It's it's you really have to understand what your, as an individual, strengths and weaknesses are, what you bring to the table, ensuring that your voice is heard when it comes to developing KPIs. Ultimately, you want to develop, you know, yourself as a professional that makes the company and your peers, better while still improving the lives of patients. You have to marry all of that together. But to me, motivation is some of it's innate.
Like, some people are just naturally self motivated, and some people who aren't, it it one is easy to identify them, but also, I think some of it some aspect of it can be learned through developing behaviors that keep you focused. Because I think sometimes people lose motivation when they feel overwhelmed and not don't have a clear direction on where they're going.
And that's where KPIs can come in and help focus your everyday job so that you can tackle, things in a way without feeling, to to be good at your job, to feel like you're making impact without being overwhelmed by all the things that you could be doing. So I I would say helping them helping individuals stay focused, motivates them to, to do better and and also giving them the opportunity to be heard. People like to be heard. Yeah. For sure.
And I think it's a good time now to there's so many resources available, and it's the best time ever to be a lifelong learner. There's books. There's podcasts. There's webinars. There's, you know, like you said, the MSL Society. There's MAPS. There's meetings, conferences. I just think that there's almost and I this is gonna sound terrible. Forgive me for saying it. I there's, like, almost no excuse Yes. For not being able to help yourself. Am I overstating that?
You are not overstating that in any way, shape, or form. No question. There are so many resources that I did not have access to when I was breaking into the field, of the MSL and medical fair space. So no question that, you it doesn't it's not very many clicks on your keyboard to get to some answers that are available, and helping you move forward. There's just a lot of resources and a lot of people available at your fingertips.
And but that also, brings but one of the things that you know, one of the jobs I had, in my career was, being an MSL coach at Novartis. And I was on a team of exceptionally brilliant MSLs, but, that's kind of a novel role. I kinda, you know, help, like, define what that role was. And in about less than 2 years, I traveled with over a 110 MSLs, 1 on 1 in the field, coaching them, mostly focusing on soft skills, but just, you know, mirroring them and observing them in their everyday life.
And I got to see the full gamut of the bad performers and the some of the most inspiring performers I've ever met. And to this date, I still have relationships. I'm drawn to people who are just that self motivated, want to make an impact, and and those are the ones that you don't ever want to disenfranchise with only quantitative p KPIs that anybody can achieve. You need to measure impact because the high performers are the ones that are gonna stand out with that. For sure.
And and that said, Rina, what advice do you have for the MSLs out there that wanna be top performers this year? How do they get there? Again, I I really think it's just kind of reviewing their FTP plans, their plans on a weekly weekly basis and kind of really setting that time time part. Right? Setting that time in your calendar, 30 minutes, an hour every week, whether it's the beginning of the week, the end of the week, to really review it and have that do that strategic thinking. Right?
How are my actions and goals? How are my actions and tasks? How are they going to benefit my overall goal I have for that week? And I think that will go a long way. And as long as they're doing that and they're seeing progress, and, again, you, you're, it's going to get adjusted. Right? Every week, sometimes you're not going to meet your goals from the previous week and that's okay. Right? It's that continuous progress that you're gonna see overall.
I think that's gonna make them to be a higher performance performer. And I also think, as leadership, it's it's our it's our job, right, to kinda know the personalities of the team members and to adjust in our in our motivation, right, and how we motivate them and how we help them with their FTP plan. Some of them are very goal orientated, and others, as Linda said, are naturally motivated. So with those people, we might not have to do a lot of coaching.
We might not have to do a lot of hand holding. But there are gonna be team members that you have to, set set time up, whether it's weekly, biweekly, to get them motivated and get them started. Yeah. That's great advice. Sometimes, I'll tell you, people get so focused on the tactical piece of it. They don't spend any time being strategic and developing a plan as to where they should go. So it's like that expression. Sometimes you have to focus on your territory and not just in your territory.
Definitely. So, Linda, what about you? What last piece of advice do you have for folks that are looking to, you know, increase their performance and improve their their metrics and value and keep KPIs and all that good stuff. I think I'm gonna look at it from both the leadership perspective and the individual perspective.
1st, from a leadership perspective, there are so many new types of data that can be layered into, improving performance, you know, KPIs, and and making them more value based data driven types of KPIs that motivate your high performers because it shows direct impact. And that's, you know, that's layering in real world evidence, real world data. You know, the the day precision medicine sort of is born out of, you know, genetic biomarkers in the oncology space.
But to be honest with you, it's it's something that we should all strive for, as an as a industry, to improve patients' lives is to understand the patient at the patient level. And there's so many, data points that we can layer into how we're impacting patients' lives, such as patient reported outcomes. Patients are wearing, you know, devices that that feed information into their health care providers, EMRs, lab data.
There's and then now with the new analytic tools available, we really don't we have to think differently on how to layer in data because it's the linking of the data that gives you valuable, you know, insights and and linking it to measuring performance of a team or individual company. Now on the individual level, though, I think it goes back to being what you said earlier, Tom, being that constant learner.
We I think it's never going to be you're never going to be at a point where you know enough or know everything to do your job well. The world I mean, look at the way the world changed with just the pandemic and how we had to flip our jobs on its head to redefine what KPIs and value is. Now it's that's always there's always going to be some evolution that you have to factor in. And so I I agree with you. Be a constant, you know, learner. Always be learning. Oh, it's awesome.
You guys, this was every bit as good as I thought it would be. I really appreciate you both. We had to do this again without a doubt. And for all of you guys out there listening, this is why IQVIA is so awesome because they have people like Rina and like Linda. So definitely check them out, IQVIA dotcom. Apply to jobs. Check them out. And, once again, thank you guys for your insights. You're really awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Tom. You're awesome as well. Alright. Thanks. Take care, guys.
K. Bye bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again. And we look forward to seeing you soon.