Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Joe Liberman, and he's associate director of medical affairs at UniCure. And we talk about MSL Insights and how it can help your career. Joe's awesome. It's a great conversation. Hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube and Instagram, and check us out on MSL Talk live on Clubhouse. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical.
Hey, Joe. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing today, buddy? Doing great. Great to see you, Tom. Yeah, man. I'm excited. I, I'm looking forward to this conversation, insight about insights. So tricky, tricky little title. And, and thank you for agreeing to do this. I know you and I had a conversation, and it kinda led us here. And I'm and I'm excited to talk to you. But before we do that, why don't we do an introduction?
Why don't you tell everybody who you are and and what you're up to these days? Yeah. Hi. Thank you for having me on your podcast. My name is Joe Liberman. I'm an associate director in medical affairs at UniCure, where my primary focus right now is on supporting our Huntington's disease, development program. Awesome. But when you you recently transitioned to into that role. Is that correct? Tell us about that and how that worked out.
Yeah. So actually, in fitting with this podcast, I started my career as an MSL. And I started out as an MSL at Shire, which was then acquired by Takeda. And I was working in their hematology team. And as an MSL at Shire, I had a lot of opportunities to work on kind of additional side projects. And one of the ones that I really enjoyed was supporting, the medical directors in developing their medical strategies for the different brands that we were covering.
I got to provide the field perspective as they were in the process of developing those. And getting to see how a medical plan strategy was developed was really exciting for me. And so it sort of became my goal to be involved more in the strategy side of medical affairs. So, actually, I joined, then UniCure as an MSL after Takeda. And at UniCure, I also had lots of opportunities to work on other projects kind of, in addition to the standard MSL work.
And, I really got to develop a lot of skills that I would need, to work in house. And so when one of those positions opened up, they thought I would be a good fit, and I transitioned into the associate director role. You make it sound so easy. No. No. There's a lot of people out there that are like, man, you know, how do I do that? I mean, was it a long process?
What like, if you could just talk a little bit about how you felt you were able to find success in that transition, and if there's any advice that you would have for somebody else that's looking to try to transition into a similar role, what would that be? I would say just have a clear plan of what you wanna do. Like I said, I I would get asked to do, you know, various other projects, and you can't do everything. You have to manage your time.
But I think working on diverse ones gave me a sense of what was out there, and got me the opportunity to interact with other kind of colleagues in medical affairs outside of the field medical team. And so that allowed me to really kind of hone in on what I wanted to do and direct some of my energy towards that and build the skills. I think that, if you wanna transition from the field to another role in medical affairs, you kind of need to demonstrate that you have the the skills to do it.
And so the more the more focused you can be in taking on these kind of side projects and directing it towards that goal, probably the more success you'll have. Awesome advice. That's great advice. And, obviously, it paid off for you. So congrats. And you had mentioned to me that I think at one point, you were also an insights lead. So let's talk about that. What what is an insights lead? What does an insights lead do? And and, let's talk about that a little bit.
Yeah. So I think a lot of just to step back for a second. A lot of MSL teams, members of the team, will have kind of a role within the team where they have, like, a special area of expertise where they sort of lead that effort within the team. And so at UniCare, one of kind of the areas where I was in charge of was being the insights lead. So it wasn't official job title. It was more of a special project Got it. As an MSL.
And as the insight re lead, I was responsible for defining the focus areas for insight gathering, and then developing a system for recording and sharing insights within UniCure. So I would look at our medical strategy to figure out key areas where we needed to focus our insight gathering to ensure success in executing that strategy.
And then at the end of each month, I would synthesize the insights that had been gathered into an executive summary, which along with the individual insights would be shared within medical affairs. And I also presented that executive summary to the global product team and the launch readiness team, which were broad kind of cross functional teams within UniCare. And I think that this was actually I mean, you would ask about kind of the career aspects of things.
Presenting insights to internal colleagues was a great opportunity, and I think it's a great opportunity for any MSL. Hearing the internal colleagues' feedback on the insights and the question they asked enabled me to gather more effective insights and more impactful insights. It also just exposed me to those internal colleagues, and they could see, you know, what my skills were and what I was actually doing. And it's such we hear this term insights.
It's such an important part of the medical affairs process right now, especially in, you know, really influencing medical affairs strategy and determining medical affairs strategy. So before, like, before we get too far ahead of ourselves, there might be people listening to this podcast that may not know what an insight is. Maybe they're just getting into, the searching for an an MSL role, or they're new as an MSL, and they kinda know what it is.
So maybe we should if you can just describe or define what is an MSL Insight in your in your own words. Yeah. I think that's a great question. And different organizations might define this very slightly differently. But I think the essential part of an insight, it's any perception or trend within healthcare. And so there's lots of kind of different departments that are focused on gathering insights.
But one of the primary responsibilities for MSLs is to gather insights from HCPs, healthcare practitioners. And this is done during scientific exchange. You know, we talk about what we do at scientific exchange. We don't just go out and give scientific information, we exchange it. So that the gathering of the insights is the part where we're getting information back from the HCPs.
So this is done kind of constantly when you're interacting with the HCPs, after you present data or answer the questions during conversations at congresses or really any other context. And so, yeah, I mean, I think it's any kind of sentiment or idea about health care that could be tied to your products or it could be tied to a disease state. Got you. Got you. And what so why is that important?
I think it's really important because MSLs can really be the eyes and the ears of the medical organization. We're out there talking and building these strong relationships with HCPs, and we really don't have any sort of sales goal or commercial intent with that. Our goal is, as I said, that scientific exchange. And so we can build these strong relationships where HCPs will feel comfortable sharing their thoughts and their ideas with us.
And that really, is critical for developing and delivering medications that can best meet the patient's needs. Well, you know, we hear this term conduit. Every once in a while, you hear that term conduit. And I think that's a great way to describe that MSLs aren't just in a role where they're disseminating information. They're also bringing information back. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's why they're in the job title, you know, liaison. It goes both ways. You know? Right.
The information exchange, it's us sharing information out, responding to the questions from the HCPs, but it's really bringing their ideas back. It's, you know, it's difficult to develop or deliver, you know, medications if you don't know what your customers are thinking. Exactly. And so understanding those HCPs, what they think about your data can really drive what future, you know, experiments you do, what future trials you do, or just educational programs.
Maybe you have all the data you need, but you can learn that there are certain, gaps in HCP understanding. And so it can also drive that. So it's very important. Yeah. Sorry. So now we know what an insight is. Alright? And and we have an overview. But what makes a good insight? Like, I'm sure there's there's a lot of different ways this can be done. But what what would be in your definition, what makes a good insight? I think the hallmark of a good insight is that it's actionable.
And also, a good insight must have the appropriate context around it. And just to give, you know, an example. Say you've you've, recently presented some phase 3 data, to a physician in response to their question. And at the end of it, that physician is is just he's he's a little more impressed. And so you write down your insight, and he he probably says that to you. And so you write down doctor Smith was unimpressed with the phase 3 data.
That's not really a useful insight in any way since no one can do anything with this. You know, why was he on the press? Did he perceive a data gap? Did he feel that the AEs were too significant for the benefit provided? It was the administration of the drug so cumbersome that he felt compliance would be low? Did he think that there's a competitor product that's just, better in some dimension? No one could know any of those from an insight that doctor Smith is unimpressed.
So nobody can actually do anything to solve this problem. But what if I say in my insight report, I say doctor Smith has a large elderly population of patients. And because there weren't any patients over 60 in the trial, he's not confident of the drug safety in this population. Well, that's, you know, that's a lot better. It tells me why he was unimpressed. You know, there's this data gap. It tells me what the data gap is. You know, the patients, He didn't see any patients over 60 in the trial.
And it gives me this context that he treats a lot of patients over 60. So an internal stakeholder knows what sort of investigation might need to be done, and he even knows that doctor Smith might be a good investigator because he has that patient population. So I I think that that actionable and then the relevant context of why this particular HCP might be bringing up this insight is really important to making it, you know, effective inside the organization.
Yeah. And, also, I found that if I get a great you know, if I get an insight that I think we're wow. That was really important. You know? You can try and get gather similar insights from other physicians. Maybe this is the idiosyncratic opinion of 1 HCP, or maybe this is a widespread, you know, a widespread thought within your geography. And I think knowing which of those is the case can be important. So maybe when you're showing the demographic information on the trial, you can say, hey.
What do you think about this? How does this represent your patient population with other HCPs? And find out, if this is a widespread issue or not. And that could make your insight even bigger. And coming from you, like, I'm as I'm listening to you, you make it sound pretty easy, but I'm sure it's not. I'm sure that there's some nuance to this, and I'm sure there's some tricks to it. So what what effective ways are there for MSLs to to pull these really good insights?
So I think the first thing, and I think this goes through everything you do as an MSL, is ensure you understand your company's compliance guidelines around gathering insights and make sure everything you do is within that. And these will probably differ slightly from organization to organization. So know where you can be proactive and where you can't, and just make sure you're operating appropriately within all those, SOPs. But in general, there are 3 kind of big pieces of advice.
And the first is having a good relationship with the HCPs in your geography by providing value to them. If you have a good relationship built on consistently providing them with value, providing them with what they need, then they're gonna more freely share insights. Second, I think having a plan in place is important.
So for each product or disease state that you cover, you know, I think if you have a couple areas that are high priority for gathering insights to align with the medical strategy, you'll find a lot more success. Then when you show that particular slide in the data, you can always inquire, you know, what what do you think about this? You can ensure that you're you're kind of really listening extra carefully. You should always be listening very carefully.
But, you know, really kind of pick out those areas and ask follow-up questions when the physicians say anything on these really kind of, you know, high priority areas. And then, I would also say gathering insights across the geographies, as I said earlier, and also across time can give you a better sense about how common an opinion is, and if it's changing, and if it what's leading to those changes.
And I think the most, kind of, the most important advice for gathering insights is to always ask why. And I think this goes back to, kind of, my example where I said, you know, the the core insight would be doctor Smith was unimpressed with the data. You know, anytime they they say something that's that's general like that, you can always ask, why? Why do you feel that way? And, also, remember too, even if the doctor says, I love this style. Oh, man. This is this is amazing.
What an incredible presentation. I think, you know, this looks like a fantastic trial. You can still ask why. What particular parts of it were, you know, did you feel were most compelling? And I think that, you know, this will really help you get to the actionable part. Never stop at that surface level of, you know, these data are good, these data are bad. Always ask why and figure out what would need to be done, to kind of impact their opinion on it. That's awesome, man.
There's a lot to unpack in there. And and, I'm learning a lot. And I'm, you know, I'm I'm not an MSO. I play 1 on TV, but I'm not an MSO. MSO. But I just I feel like that's some really good advice. And I know the one thing I do know is that, obviously, one of the most important parts about MSO Insights is they they need to be tracked. They need to be reported. And I know that everybody probably has different ways to do it. Right?
I know that there's CRM systems and Veeva and all this other stuff. But what's what's your advice on the proper way to report these? Yeah. I think that's really important because this is what people internally are gonna be reading. And I think as you're reporting them, you almost need to pretend, okay, you know, you the person who's reading it doesn't know the whole context. So pretend you weren't in the conversation. So what do I need to include?
So that way they understand what it is I'm saying. But also, you can't write a novel. So it's gotta keep it short and to the point. So I would say number 1, you know, you report the insight and then make sure you have the important context around it, but no more. So maybe if they're talking about how cumbersome the treatment is, is it because they cover a huge geography, this HCP, and so their patients are gonna have to travel a long ways?
So this, you know, inpatient administered procedure is just not gonna be convenient. That particular piece of context might be important versus a physician whose patients maybe are all closer by the clinic. So that way we can understand, okay, maybe this is an issue for certain areas, but it's not gonna be, you know, everywhere. Those types of pieces of context can go a long ways in understanding the insight. Got you. Also, I think keeping that actionable part in mind.
And so one of the really best things I've seen as an MSL is when I record an insight, there also being a space to record an action item that goes with that insight. What action could you take? And this isn't just for the MSL to propose to its colleagues, you know, what might be done with the insight because they'll obviously have their own opinions on that. But it does ensure that you're gathering full and complete insights.
If an MSL cannot think of a specific action that might be taken from the insight, then it may be sign that more follow-up question should have been asked in the conversation. And, you know, to keep that in mind in the future when you're gathering insights on a similar topic. Interesting. So as as we're talking about all this and, you know, recording and and keeping track of all stuff, Is it is are insights tied to performance?
Like, is it a is it like a metric that companies use just to to help track MSL performance? I mean, I'd say it's it's absolutely tied to performance. Now whether it's a quantitative metric or not, is gonna vary by organizations. I've heard of that being done. I have never experienced that in the organizations I've worked. But every performance review that I went through as an MSL included discussion of the insights I gathered.
And, so I think it's a really important part of the overall performance of an MSL. And also, insights are really important for developing a reputation within the broader medical affairs organization. Right. Other people are gonna be reading these. And I think if you're known as somebody who consistently is able to, gather good insights and report good insights, then that's gonna go a long ways to building up your reputation.
So I think it is a really important part of performance whether or not it's a quantitative metric. I have to imagine. Yeah. I have to imagine. If you're really good at this, you're gonna make a name for yourself. It's gonna it's gonna definitely lend itself to your performance and re performance review. I I have to imagine it would. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, this is where too, you know, it it it good insights are sometimes more important than a lot of insights.
You know, you can go into an organization, you know, after an interaction and write down 20 superficial things that aren't really actionable or aren't gonna lead to any any, you know, future projects within the medical affairs organization, that's not gonna be useful. But if you come out of interaction and you have 2, and people read those and they go, wow. We really need to do something with this. That's gonna mean a lot.
So I I do think it is important to keep that eye on quality, over sheer qual, quantity. Oh, for sure. Yeah. That makes sense. I'll tell you, this is really interesting stuff. And and, I was gonna say insightful, but that would have just been too corny. My the topic is already corny enough, but I couldn't resist. I thought, you know, insight about intake. Let let's shift gears a little bit. I mean, obviously, you're you're you're really, you have you have a lot of awesome advice.
So I I'd love to hear what advice you might have for MSLs just looking into the rest of this year, maybe looking into next year on performance. Like, what do you think MSL should be doing in q 4 to help them finish off the year strong? What could they do in q one to start the year off strong?
I don't know about in particular for for q 4 as opposed to any others, but the thing that I found that's contributed the most to my success as an MSL is having a clear strategy and plan for my territory, and ensuring it aligns with the broader medical affairs strategy and also the corporate strategy. And so whether you're gathering insights or any other activity that that you do as an MSL, that well thought out strategy will make what you do more impactful and more efficient.
And I I just think that that's something that, you know, I think when you're a new MSL, it's easy to think of the the developing the territory plan as as a, button clicking exercise or something you just need to get done. But it's really I mean, that that is your plan for everything you're gonna do. And it's probably one of the most important things you do to set up yourself up for success.
So I think developing a clear strategy for yourself and revisiting it often and updating it as needed, would be the most important thing you can do to be successful. Yeah. I agree. Gotta have a plan. Absolutely. Gotta have a plan. So what about and that's great advice for any, like you said, really, for any MSL any time of year. But as we look into 2022, what do you think like, what are your expectations? Like, what do you see happening?
Obviously, there's been so much going on, and we're in such this volatile times. What what's what's your thoughts as you look into this new year that's, you know, 3, 4 months away? I mean, I think thinking about field medical specifically, you know, I think COVID has changed a lot. We were so used to, you know, traveling directly, speaking to our KOLs face to face, you know, using virtual tools from time to time.
But, you know, it wasn't something certainly I regularly did interact with my HCPs pre COVID. And so, yeah, I was certainly anxious when, back in 20, 2020 when really had to reevaluate how I did my job. But what I found quickly was we can use these digital tools to accomplish our goals. And we can use these digital tools to, you know, support our HCPs. And so I think, you know, that that was actually really big for me. It was learning how to more efficiently use digital tools.
And so I think going into 2022, I'm really optimistic. I'm seeing, you know, congresses getting scheduled for, you know, live face to face interactions again. And so I'm optimistic that we'll be able to have more of those. But even as face to face interactions come back, or I know for some MSLs have come back already, we're still gonna have those digital tools in our pocket now. And we can use those wherever it's, you know, more efficient or most appropriate to interact with our HCPs.
So I think this is gonna make field medical even more effective going forward because we'll have that face to face, but we'll also now be so much more skilled in using the digital tools. So I'm actually very optimistic about 2022. And I think everybody in field medical should be. I think we've shown what we can do even under the most difficult circumstances.
And do you think it's it we're now at a time when it really changes the approach of the MSL to really at like, 1st and foremost, uncover the needs of the KOL, see what it is that their preference is as far as communication engagement Mhmm. Live versus digital or what platform they prefer to use.
I think we're just in a different time right now where you you as as the MSL, you have to almost take this approach of being inquisitive 1st and foremost before you just take a leap into whatever engagement you think you should do. Oh, it's it's absolutely true. And I think, you know, I've even Carewell share with me in conversations. You know, some of them are like, oh, you know, it's so great. I get to have these virtual meetings and all is so much more efficient.
Others have said, I I can't stand this. I can't wait to to get back to face to face. So, you know, you can kind of take take a little note on that too, as people spontaneously share what they prefer. But I I also think the other thing that's happened too is, you know, we haven't had the opportunity for those kind of spontaneous interactions that occur at congresses, where you just bump into something in the hallway. We've had to be very, you know, conscious of how do we approach our HCPs?
How do we ensure that we're providing them with value? I mean, I think it's it's made, you know, me dig even deeper and work even better, as in those kind of pre meeting plannings to making sure everything I do in my outreach, you know, is geared towards providing the value. So I think, you know, 29 2020, excuse me, was, you know, was an incredibly difficult year. But I I do think that we have learned a lot and can be even more effective going forward. Well, I mean, the roles evolved.
It's totally evolved. Regardless of whether anybody was ready for it, it happened. And here we are. And I think there's there's a lot to be said for for these new platforms and and digital tools that have made really improved the role and made things a lot easier. But by the same token, I'm I'm old school. I'm of the opinion where I wanna be in front of the person. I I wanna try to get FaceTime.
And because there's no better way to develop a relationship than, like you said, running into somebody face to face at a meeting or having a planned meeting where you're you're there because you're a valuable partner to that KOL. I think we're gonna get back there. I really do. I think I think it's gonna be we hear this term hybrid. I think it's probably gonna be hybrid for a little while, but I think we're gonna get back there. And that's just my opinion.
I don't I don't think the digital tools are are going anywhere. I think they're they're now gonna be just a really important part of what we do. But I do agree with you. I mean, I think just human beings, it's in our nature. We wanna be near each other. You know, we wanna be able to talk in person. There is something slightly different about that. And so I don't think that will ever go away. I don't think digital tools will ever replace that entirely.
But I, you know, I think there are so I think there are interactions that I've had where it, you know, it is so much you know, a physician has a simple question, and it's easy just to get on Zoom. Now everybody's comfortable with these Yeah. Zoom or whatever, your platform, teams, anything else. And people are so much more comfortable with it. So you can just say, you know, would you like to just have the conversation this way? And and you can quickly take care of their question.
For other things, I think the in person, you know, when it comes to building that relationship can be really important. And so I think, yeah, it's gonna be part of that MSL strategy. You know, what is gonna be virtual and what is gonna need to be face to face. And it'll be something that will have to be, I think, just kinda planned out in advance. Well, it's gonna be fun to watch, man. It's gonna be interesting. Always is.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's one of the things I've always loved most about the MSL and the medical affairs role is just the diversity of it. You know, you're always doing something new. You're always learning something new. And so this just goes along with it, you know, learning how to use these new technologies efficiently. For sure. Awesome. Joe, you're the man. This was really, really good stuff, really informative. I learned a lot, and I know a lot of other people did too.
Obviously, everybody that's watching, I'm sure, took a lot away from this. So I appreciate you, man. This was great. Well, thank you, Tom. I really enjoyed the opportunity, and I hope we get to talk again about some other topics. Listen, dude. We're definitely I'll definitely have you back. Start thinking of other topics and think of good titles. You know, I like those catchy titles. Wonderful, Tom. Well, have a great afternoon. You too, Joe. Thanks, man. Take care.
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