Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Keely Dahl. She's a senior medical science liaison with Aurinia Pharmaceuticals, and we talk about KOL mapping and real life experience, her experience, which is amazing. You guys are gonna love this. She's awesome. Hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube and LinkedIn and Instagram, and join us for MSL Talk Live on Clubhouse, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. Thanks, guys.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Kealey. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Hey, Tom. Thanks so much for having me on. Super excited for the session. I can't wait. Before we start, I think I have to tell everybody the big news. Big birthday for you yesterday. Correct? Absolutely. Yeah. Made a national headlines. CNN, Boston, and NBC. Wherever you watch your news, it should have been there. That's right.
Well, I just want everybody to know so that they can collectively wish you a happy birthday. And they are in for a treat. Appreciate it. Awesome. And this is gonna be a tremendous conversation. So but before we get into it, why don't you do a quick intro and tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? Sure. Perfect. Thanks, Tom. So I am originally a Floridian.
So I grew up in Florida, went to the University of Florida College of Pharmacy, and then I moved around a bit for different opportunities within the pharmaceutical industry. So I first moved to Princeton, New Jersey to do a year long fellowship with Novo Nordisk in medical affairs and strategy, then transitioned for a brief period of time to DC to work in our government affairs office.
And then I transitioned companies moving over to a larger pharmaceutical company, Merck, had the opportunity to launch one of the first biosimilars in the market, Renflexis with the rheumatology gastroenterology team. Year later transitioned over to infectious disease, so working in the space of hep c and HIV. I'm launching my second product. And then most recently, I transitioned to a very small company.
So I went from medium to large to the smallest you can have, being one of the first 20 employees of the company in the US, Aurinia, and there I had the opportunity to launch my 3rd drug. And so, all throughout that time period, I have been a medical science liaison, or senior medical science liaison. And most recently working with the smaller company, I've had the chance to, as the phrase goes, wear a few hats, wear a few bonnets.
So really had that chance to be a big contributor in our internal medical affairs. So, you know, editing and reading over publications, manuscripts, extracts, label, be a part of MLR, work with payers, work with market access team, be involved in planning and executing advisory board meetings, creating training materials for the MSL team, for the commercial team, and helping bring on a lot of my partners.
Because when I first joined the group, I was one of 3 MSLs, which essentially means I was covering a third of the country. But then I had the opportunity to bring on well, my my manager brought on other people. I have the opportunity to give over my territory to other people and help them with KOL mapping as well. Well, you are awesome, and I am so glad that you're here. And I just want everybody to know. I totally, like, was, like, total stalker. Pursuit Keeley.
We were at a conference, and I was, like, relentless. I'm like, you're gonna come on the podcast? You're gonna come on the podcast? And finally, she's like, okay. What are we gonna talk about? And the funny thing is this whole KOL mapping conversation or topic came up from one of the listeners was like, Tom, I really I'm a new MSL, and I need to know more about KOL mapping. So I threw it out there, and Kaylee was kind enough to say, yeah. I can help you with that.
And not only that, for those of you that missed it, she was a panelist on our MSL talk live, which is on Clubhouse about KOL mapping. And it was the biggest turnout we've ever had, It was probably the biggest response we ever had. So I'm like, alright. We definitely have to, you know, an episode podcast episode. So here we are. So I'm gonna jump right into it and stop talking because I'm not contributing anything by doing that. So let's start with, like, what is kol mapping?
Let's start there, and then we'll see where it takes us. Sure. And, you know, I'll just throw it out there that not everybody uses that terminology of kol mapping. You know, being a part of 3 different teams, I've rarely had anybody say, you know, I need you to do KOL mapping. So sometimes people can just refer to KOL mapping as, you know, creating a list of key opinion leaders that you're going to be meeting with in your territory.
So you may not hear it, referred to that formally, in your discussions internally. You can be aware of there. But for for this podcast, let's call it KOL mapping so we can be consistent. So KOL mapping is really about figuring out who you are meeting with within your territory. Now this is gonna be very different for different people about how deep you go into the institution. So here's what I mean.
For example, if you are an MSL that just covers New York City, Not to say just because New York City is such a mecca of health care providers, but what I mean by that is you're probably gonna go a little bit deeper into the institution. You're probably going to be meeting with several people within one institution versus somebody that covers maybe 6 states, 7 states. My case covered up to 15 states.
When you're at that large of a territory level, your KOL mapping may very well include one person from an institution or you may not cover certain institutions within your states at all because you're at such a high level of meeting with the top experts within your therapeutic area. So KOL mapping is figuring out who to speak with.
And what's important to know is that your level of contribution to figuring out that list of people you're meeting with is going to differ quite a bit based on your role, your manager, the history of the team.
And what I mean by that is that if you're joining a team that's been around for 5 years and you're backfilling a position where someone else was in that territory for 3, 4 years, you are very likely going to take over a roster or a list of people you are meeting with and then you start meeting with them. But if you're at the very beginning of a team, you are probably contributing to the creation of that list and figuring out who you're meeting with.
And then we'll also go into the fact that there are a lot of really excellent vendors out there that can help support you in figuring out who you should be meeting with based on certain criteria that you prioritize. We can go into that later. So let's go back a second. So for the most part, you are and let's say you're you're new to the MSO world or you've been an MSO and you're new to a company.
It's it's gonna vary as far as some companies are gonna give you a list, and they're gonna say, okay, here's your territory list. Here's your your kol list. Some maybe aren't, and then some are like, well, here's a partial list, and then you need to go through a kol identification exercise in your territory, and you have to identify others. Is that kind of what you're saying? That's that's exactly right.
But what I think is important to know is that regardless of which of those 3 buckets you fall in, you are going to have to continue to modify your list over time because we know that key opinion leaders are not stagnant. Right? There's new people that are coming out of fellowship that are emerging as early talent, a rising stars, key opinion leaders.
And so that list that you either created at the beginning or you got at the beginning, regardless, you are going to have to contribute to that staying relevant as you play a role in that team. Right? So how do you alright. So you have to basically prioritize and figure out what who's gonna be on that list and to what extent they're gonna be in a, b, or c level. I don't know how you prioritize. But Yeah. How do you figure that out? How do you how do you do that? Yep. Exactly.
It's a fantastic question. And every company is a little bit different in how they, quote, unquote, rank health care providers, their KOL list, their key opinion leader list. Oftentimes, there will be a tier 1 group, a tier 2 group, a tier 3 group. Other terms that might be used instead of tiers might be based on region. So they are internationally influential in your space or they are regionally influential in your therapeutic area.
And then lastly, they may be institutionally influential in therapeutic decision making. So that can sometimes give you an idea of how these people are prioritized based on their sphere of influence that they have. But if you're trying to figure out how do I even figure out who a key opinion leader is, what's the criterion that I need to evaluate to figure out if this person is truly a key opinion leader, that's such a subjective term.
There are some companies that are going to have a set of criterion established for you in advance. So for example, previous company, in order to be a key opinion leader, they needed to have x number of publications. They needed to be involved in x number of clinical trials. They needed to be in this therapeutic area practicing for x number of years. Other things can be a part of committees. Right?
Like, international or national committees in that therapeutic area or they are involved in the fellowship program or they're involved in the x, y, and z. You see what I'm saying? These are people that are typically going above and beyond the essential role of being a physician. They're involved in other things that make them additionally influential, additionally respected within their field.
These are people that are taking on leadership roles and they're meaningfully contributing to the therapeutic area that they specialize in. Got you. So some companies, they'll get that criterion and they'll say, in order for you to nominate this person as a KOL, they need to meet this criteria. And other companies, they won't give you that specific list of criteria and instead they'll say use your judgment. But if you were ever asked, why did you put this person as a key opinion leader?
You should be able to answer. I put them as a KOL because they've done this, they've done that. They're involved in this research, this clinical trial, etcetera. So what happens if in your experience, you identify KOLs or you rank them differently than maybe your, you know, the company does or maybe your manager does? And now you'd kinda disagree. Like, do you have ultimately a say in the ranking and the prioritization of your list?
Yeah. So I think this is a back and forth between the manager and the MSL that's on the ground. I think most managers are very open to hearing the perspective of the MSL who's actually meeting with these people on a day to day, but you may get some pushback.
There may be some cases where the manager says, you know, I appreciate your perspective, but we've heard from all of these other key opinion leaders that this person really is influential or this person really isn't, thought of as a leader within the space. And so I think as an MSL, there is some value in listening to the perspective of your manager because your manager has the advantage of speaking with all the key opinion leaders across the country. Right?
Your manager has that opportunity to understand perspectives from New England and Boston and Southern California, whereas you may just have New England. Right? So just keeping that in mind if there is some disagreement there. But typically, it is a it's a two way street where there is that communication with manager and MSL both bringing their opinions to the table about who are considered true key opinion leaders. And frankly, there's some managers out there that just say, I trust you.
You've been doing this job for 5 years or 10 years or what have you. I trust your perspective on who you think is to be a key opinion leader. What a lot of managers want to avoid is MSL's cherry picking people that they can easily meet with. That's something that sometimes happens where an MSL is really struggling to meet with the true key opinion leaders because these people are highly sought after. Right?
There's other companies who are meeting with them or frankly, they don't really enjoy industry relationships. And so what can sometimes happen is sometimes MSLs will put the people that they're closest with and the people that they can easily meet with on their KOL list even though it may not be for the benefit of the organization to spend so much time with this individual. So that's where the the back and forth comes in. And it's only natural. Right?
You're out in the field, and sometimes it's lonely out in the field, and it's not easy getting access. So when you have really good relationships or you have easy access, you kinda wind up migrating. Because I remember being in the field myself. You always wound up, like, probably overseeing certain KOLs more than others just because you like the staff. You like doctor. You know? You can again get access, and it's just you're still doing your job.
And but, you know, it's just an easy way to get another appointment. But, ultimately, you do need to prioritize and get in to see those top tier KOLs. So that makes me think, like, as as you look at your list and you look at your top KOLs and, you know, people that you need to see, you also have to kinda coordinate, right, with your cross functional partners because there's other folks that are out in the field. So how's how do you navigate that? Right. And on that, it's very company specific.
So this is one of those, you know, public service announcements where I say, please consult your internal company policies because this is getting into very sensitive territory. Companies are very particular about how and what you can engage, your cross functional partners on. Right? So some companies, you can have those conversations about, you know, I'm meeting with this person on this date. I just wanted to let you know as a courtesy because I know you call on this person as well.
There's other companies where you cannot inform the cross functional partners of your activities period. Got it. So there's that that difference between medical and then that firewall with commercial. And again, the the the height of the wall, so to speak, is very different as specific company. So please please please consult those policies before you make any actions.
But to to give you some perspective of my experience, I've had some experiences where I was not allowed at all to talk with any cross functional partners on the commercial side with my, regarding my key opinion leaders. Could not have any conversations point blank done. Conversely, I've had I've had organizations that do allow me to do that.
For example, I could have my sales colleagues give me a call, let me know that there was a challenging question that came up that they were either uncomfortable or unable to answer for that key opinion leader, and then I'm brought in to to help answer that question. So there's some, planning that goes on just by the nature of them needing my support. But other ways that you coordinate with your cross functional partners, are are related to CRMs, where you get to see, for example, Veeva. Right?
Salesforce Veeva that tends to be the gold standard is where you can see online who has been meeting with your key opinion leaders. Right? So I can see that my, account director or account executive, somebody that works with payers. I can see when they've gone in and spoken to somebody, or I can see when my therapeutic, or rather thought leader liaison went in and spoke with someone or the, sales representative. So I do have access to seeing when they went in to speak with somebody.
I can't see what they they actually did or what they talked about during their conversation. But the reason I think that's important is because we all wanna be cognizant of the time of the thought leaders that we're meeting with. Because if they're meeting with 4 people from your company alone, you gotta multiply that out by the x number of companies they're also meeting with. Right? So we wanna be respectful of their time.
They don't wanna be annoyed by the fact that we keep coming in and asking them the same questions or similar questions. And so this is where there's value in coordinating. Right? Getting an understanding of how often other people are meeting with them and having some really frank conversations about who should perhaps be the point person. Right?
Maybe I should be the point person for this account because I've been meeting with them for 2 years, and they don't feel like they need to meet with you because they already get all the information from me or vice versa. You've known them for 20 years, and there's no reason for me to come in and disrupt that relationship. Let me be here as a support when you need me. Totally. So having those frank conversations. I I think that's enormous.
I think that, first of all, that communication is so valuable. Again, you know, as long as you're compliant in however you're communicating according to what your company wants to do. But that communication and that coordination is huge because you can easily make a mistake, and you can easily overstep your bounds, or you can annoy people without realizing that you're annoying. You just think you're doing your job.
But most importantly, when you coordinate with your commercial counterparts or who are cross functional partners, whoever they might be, maybe it's on the managed care side, You're able to learn and understand what the pain points are for that practice, and that could totally change the game for you. Or maybe they're not getting access, and you are or whatever. Maybe there's a hot button, but, like, I just think that that's huge.
Not to overstate it because you just basically kinda said the same thing. No. No. You're totally right. And the other thing that you mentioned is the warm handoff, right, or the warm introduction. And there are some circumstances where you can partner with your cross functional colleague and do a warm introduction because one person has access and the other person doesn't. So that's a great example too.
The one other thing that came to my mind is is ensuring that everybody looks informed and coordinated in the eyes of the physician you're meeting with. So I'll give you an example. This is what what your cross functional partners do not want. What they don't want is to walk into a room with a doctor and the doctors say, hey. By the way, I am attending that advisory board meeting that you all have coming up this week and I'm really excited about it. And your partner's saying, oh, really?
That's that's great. I'm so glad to hear that. And they are totally caught off guard. They had no idea that this is going on. And same thing with other partnerships, you know, this doctor is taking part in a registry and then they have a question about the protocol and they ask the sales rep, for example, say, oh, by the way, I wanna know about this part of the protocol for this registry I'm doing with you all.
And your sales rep having no idea that this doctor is a part of the registry because it wasn't communicated. Now again, you have to be careful about what you communicate. Some things are off limits. For those things that are on limits, right, that are allowed Yep. Having that communication increases the credibility of not only the entire organization, but the direct person that you're partnering with.
So it's really a, a way to stay on everybody's good side and for all of us to look better at the end of the day for the organization. Totally. Couldn't agree more. So let's let's take the opposite scenario. So we're talking about, you know, you use the word warm handoffs or coordination. Are you getting inside information? You're getting the inside scoop. What if you're you have none of that?
What if you're maybe you're new to your territory or you're forging into a new area, whatever, and you have no contact information? You don't know who to contact with within that facility. Like, how do you navigate those waters? Yes. So this is where using something like a CRM or, again, something like Veeva is really valuable, and I think it's something that often isn't utilized to its full potential.
So what I mean by that is, you know, when we're talking about, contact information like emails or phone numbers or who you should be calling on at the office to arrange meetings, that all can go into Veeva and that information can be shared across the team. But, again, oftentimes, there's a lot of blanks in Veeva where, frankly, there is somebody on the team that does have that information, and it just isn't being shared.
So I think it's it behooves the entire organization if we encourage people to put that in there so that it can be seen across, across the team. But, conversely, let's say that you're not doing that and that people on the team don't use it as much and it's not in there, You know, they're again, use your compliance at your specific organization, but you can absolutely share contact information across the team as long as people feel comfortable with it.
For example, I've been cross covering in open territory for the last few months and there's people there that I've never covered that area and I don't know anyone there really. And so I've been asking people for contact information and they've given that to me. We're not talking about anything else related to these accounts, similar contact information. So you can this is a great way to maximizing your network. That's one of the success principles of being an MSL.
And one of the ways that you can maximize your network is using the intel that is already within your organization. So often people will pay vendors, you know, x amount of money to get this information, which is great, and there's absolutely a role for it. It's very helpful. But I'm suggesting that there's also a lot of intel and insight and information already within the organization. So try to maximize that where you can. For sure. Yeah. So then okay. So you now you you have your list.
You have your information, and now you're you're trying to make inroads. And you're trying to get those one on one meetings with KOLs, and you're having trouble. So now what? Like, do you have any unique ways, maybe to to get appointments? For sure. There are just so many ways to go about it. The one thing I will start off the conversation with is saying, let's say you've exercised all of those options. Right? All of your creative ways, and we're gonna go into those in a minute.
But I want to state upfront because I've met so many early MSLs that say, I feel so deflated. I can't get a meeting with this person and, you know, I I feel so unsuccessful. Right? I I feel like I'm not providing value to the organization. And it really impacts them because MSLs tend to be very high performers. Right? That's why they got the job in the first place. And so for them to feel like they're underperforming could be really devastating emotionally.
So I just do wanna share before we go into some of the creative ways to get in touch that just because somebody is on your list does not mean that they have to stay there. And one of the valid reasons for taking somebody off of your list is because you cannot gain access. That doesn't mean they can't come back on your list once you finally do get access.
But, again, if you have reached out to somebody with numerous different mediums, such as phone calls, emails, dropping by the office, trying to connect with them at conferences, you've tried all of these for 6 months, a year, and absolutely nothing is working, then it's time to have a frank conversation with your manager and and explaining what has gone on and what you've done to try to fix that, try to get in touch, and and and get them off the list.
So I just wanna throw that out there that just because somebody's on your list and because somebody is truly influential within the space that you work in, doesn't mean they always have to stay there. But I do wanna talk about some of the creative ways that you can get in touch with physicians. So the email tends to be the gold standard. Frankly, it's the easiest. Right?
It's easier to to write an email and get an email address than calling the office and talking to this person, talking to this person, getting a callback, leaving your number, etcetera. So phone, is the second to email being the first.
And I think there's a lot you can do to optimize your email message, from keeping your email really brief to the title that you use to making sure that it's clear that you are in the medical affairs side of the organization or potentially you have involvement with research if that is true for you. These are things that should really be emphasized in your introductory email. Other things include with a physician, for example. Let's let's take it take a a hypothetical example.
You have a wonderful relationship with somebody at the University of Minnesota. And you let this doctor know, you know, hey. I've been trying to get in touch with doctor Yang for 4 months. You know, I really love your advice on how to get in touch. Do you think you could send a introductory email or could I cc you on an introductory email? So again, maximizing your leverage maximizing your network and leveraging people in your community to help you connect with other other physicians.
So that's one option. Again, we talked about phone calls. Phone calls are an extremely useful tool, albeit cumbersome and often take a lot more time. But one one thing that it's so funny. I was like, I kind of laugh and and in embarrassment and blush and think about my first couple of phone calls when I started off as an MSL because I had no idea what to say and I had no idea who to ask for. So I just said, you know, just a I won't even repeat what I said, but just a dumbest thing.
So now I know what to do. And now what I do is I ask to speak with the research coordinator, or can I speak with the office manager? And and that will get you in the door much more quickly than saying, can I talk to this doctor? Like, absolutely not. You cannot ask to talk to the doctor directly. You have to talk to somebody that supports the doctor's schedule, so phone calls. Other things, I talked about meetings. Meetings are a mecca for MSL.
That is like the that is like the MSL sweepstakes where it's like, you get a prize and you get a prize because you get to see all of your doctors all in one place. And then when you're done with the meeting, you go back into, you know, your CRM or Veeva. You're going in, you met with 20 doctors because they're just all there for you. So, really, conferences are so important. Unfortunately, a lot of them are virtual right now, which makes our jobs a little bit harder.
But nonetheless, going to conferences is a great way to connect with people that you have not been able to previously. And I was just at a conference a few weekends ago, and I met with an MSL there who I've seen at a couple other conferences. She's been doing this job for a year and, she shared with me that she does struggle to introduce herself to people that she's never met before. Right? Just not something she's quite comfortable with yet.
So this is somebody I really like, and I like to try to help people out. So I said, just come with me. So I introduced her to the doctor because I know him, and I said, this is my friend. And she'd really love to speak with you about something. I'm gonna go ahead and excuse myself. Wishing you all the best, you know, and go ahead and go.
So I share that story because when you go to conferences, that doesn't mean that you're all of a sudden gonna feel super confident to go out there and introduce yourself because quickly you're thinking, this person doesn't wanna meet with me. I've tried reaching out a thousand times. Like, why am I even going and putting myself out there? It's almost like dating. But try to lean on people that care about you or support you or just pep yourself up and just say, you know what? I'm doing it.
I'm going up and talking to that person. People tend to be really nice to your face. And those that aren't, well, that's just a part of life too. You got nothing to lose. You might as well give it a crack. And, you know, you kinda you I'm so like I'm surprised at why people get so freaked out about taking a chance. What's the worst that can happen? You don't have the conversation or you can tell that the person doesn't want to talk. But sometimes you get so pleasantly surprised.
You're like, oh my god. I was so afraid of that person. All I did was say hello, and, like, I feel like we're best buddies now. And it might even be the person you've been trying to get in touch with for a long time that hasn't been giving you 2 seconds of their time. You just a lot of this is timing. You just have to get the person at the right time. That's so true.
And the other thing to be aware of as well is that many institutions automatically put emails from outside of the of the institution or anything that says pharma on it immediately goes into the junk mailbox. So a lot of times your outreach may not have been ignored, but simply was never seen by the physician. So when you're going up, if I may suggest, don't mention that you've sent, you know, x number of emails. I mean, you can if you want to use your discussion.
But I think just start on a fresh page. Hi. I've been really eager to meet you. You know, I really respect the work that you've done in this space, and I love reading your publication on this. And I'm really excited to see the trial results for the study that you're a part of, and I would love to discuss with you x, y, and z. Right? Rather than maybe starting off by saying, I've been emailing you since January. Where have you been? Right? Maybe avoid that. Not a good point.
Having them feel a little guilty. Yeah. Right? And just start off on a fresh page. I say that because I've heard that. No. It's true. Try and throw out some That doesn't the passive aggressive approach doesn't work. And the thing is, I don't know if you've seen this and I I've done this myself. I don't know if you've ever said the thing you least want to say. If that makes sense.
But you're thinking yourself, okay, like, you're thinking something negative and you're like, I definitely don't wanna say this. Don't say this. And for some reason, that is the only thing that comes to your head. You say it. And it just it happens to people, but these are just some tips and suggestions of things to try to avoid when you're doing that original, initial outreach. Well, let me ask you this. Let's go back to that for a second because I'm curious.
What do you find as an effective subject line in your emails? What do you what do you typically use? What's your go to subject line? Yeah. I I'll do a couple of different things. So use what you what you like out of this. But oftentimes, I will start off with saying, that this is the state. Mhmm. Then I'll put, like, a period or a dash, and then I'll say medical affairs, and then I'll often put, something like meeting in October. And the order may differ.
Sometimes sometimes I'll put I want them to see something that really catches their eye. Yep. So if they are truly an expert in the space of my disease, me putting that as the subject line initially is probably going to catch their attention because Yep. They love all things related to this disease state. Mhmm. Conversely, sometimes I'll put the meeting date in the beginning.
I learned this at a conference once that this this female, MSL, she would start off all of her emails by saying meeting next Wednesday at x time. And apparently, that worked for her where she would just simply say the dates and she would say, you know, I I was planning on meeting you on this date, and I'm gonna send you an invite now. And so that was her approach. I personally don't usually go with that. I just put a general meeting in October. Right? Be a little bit more broad.
The other thing to be aware of is that you want to suggest, you want to propose the dates and times to meet.
It's a it's a funny thing that when I'm on the other side of receiving an email from somebody and they're asking me to meet, if they don't suggest dates and times, it kind of gets me a little bit annoyed because what that does, unintentionally for sure, but what that unintentionally does is now you put work on me to check through my calendar, see when I'm available, what dates, what times, and now I have to propose them to you. Right?
What's a little bit easier is if, Tom, if you wanna meet with me, as an example, you just say, I have availability on 21st, 22nd from 2 to 4, from 1 to 3. Please let me know, what time you prefer, and I'll send you a Zoom invite, or I will meet you at this address. I love that. Trying to do anything possible to make it more challenging on someone. Kind of the Amazon effect. Right? Any little thing that is inconvenient, we're gonna avoid, like, the plague. That's just how we're built as humans.
So anything you can do to make that meeting more convenient, more conducive to that schedule, the better off you're gonna be. And, again, keeping it really brief is important. Mhmm. It's so cute how my first emails were like novels. You know? Now I'm like, oh, what did you do? So now I just keep it really brief and that tends to work a lot more, effectively. For sure. I mean, I just have to I literally have to just jump in on this one because it's it's such a mistake if you're not brief.
If you write too much information, a lot of times people think that, well, I'm gonna put all this information because I want them to know everything, and I wanna throw everything at them, and I don't wanna leave anything. I think the opposite happens. I think, number 1, we're a society of instant gratification. You wanna get to the point, know what's what's what.
Number 2, you wanna give them a little bit of information to let them know what it is that you're gonna help them with and what you're gonna be able to offer them. But then don't give them any more information because then they might not wanna hear anything more. It's like, oh, I don't really want that. Like, you gotta leave them guessing a little bit to keep them wanting more. And if you make it too long, you're gonna lose them anyway.
You're not gonna even get your call to action in front of them because they didn't get to it. So there's so many reasons to keep it brief, and, I'm so glad that you just said that. So getting back to just to jump ahead a little bit. Getting back to the your list. So now we already went through a lot of background to get your list to a certain point. Right? And you're establishing your list and you're meeting with KOLs. So now are you responsible for changing that list regularly?
How does that work? Right. So I think it's important. So here's here's why the list even exists. Like, what's what's the point of even having a list? The reason that we have a list is because that list is tied to our success metrics at the end of the year. Right? Ubiquitously. Every single MSL is tied to metrics that involve reaching out to and meeting with health care providers.
So typically, what a what I've typically seen at medical affairs organizations is that a successful MSL will meet with their 5th their top 50 key opinion leaders. You know, they've met with 90% at least 3 to 4 times a year. Now I'll say that there's some there's some cause for debate and there is a big debate and there is a big difference between those companies that keep the quantity metrics and those that have chosen to move away from it.
So a lot of companies still have quantity metrics, meet with this number of KOLs this many times a year. Right? Some people have moved away from that and they say, you know what? We value quality over quantity and we worry that if we have quantity metrics, MSLs will simply focus on a number rather than the quality. The ideal MSL focuses both on quantity and at each meeting is focusing on quality. Right? So having a meaningful scientific exchange on a regular basis.
And the reason that you've been when you think about it, 3 to 4 times a year, it's about every quarter. Right? And that kind of is a a fair tempo because your job as an MSL is to inform the physicians of the data your company is presenting on. Right? To ensure that they can make in for decision making, regarding the drug. And so, usually, there's new data coming out every 3 to 4 months. So the timing is typically pretty manageable. It makes a lot of sense to be needing that frequently.
So that's that's why you have a KOL list is so that you can tie that back to your success metrics at the end of the year, right, to see how well you did. But to your question of does that list change, does it change over time, the answer is yes. Yes. It does. Typically, it doesn't change that frequently. So for example, every month, I send in a report and I share how many meetings I have a month, how many are live, how many are virtual.
And then there's a list that says how many of my meetings are with my top 30 key opinion leaders. Right? So I keep a list of that and so typically a good percentage are in my top 30, but there's certainly some that aren't. So so I'd look back at my top 30 list every single month because I'm going through and saying, which of my top 30 did I meet with? And sometimes I take a look and I'm like, oh gosh. That person is not shouldn't be on this list anymore.
I've had a lot of physicians move, frankly, during COVID, go to other institutions, and so that person isn't appropriate to have on my list anymore. Right. There's different reasons. Right? But they're usually only gonna be, like, one v's and two v's. Probably about 5% of your KOL list is is meaningfully changing a year. So it's important to keep looking at it to make sure that it is accurate, but 95% of the time, you're just doing a quick scroll through.
Everybody's gonna be the same, and then it's sort of a a one off when you have somebody that needs to come off or be added. Makes total sense. Makes total sense. And I think, jeez, man, we this we blew through this. I think we need part 2 or something. You gotta come back. I'm into it. We I'm into it. Whenever you tell me I'm ready. Crush this. Any last minute advice? I mean, we covered a lot of ground, and you're awesome.
And I think that this was a really good backgrounder on, this whole concept of developing your KOL list and maintaining it and even KOL engagement strategies. So but as we close out this year and start to look into the new year, what's your advice for people? Yeah. So thank you for that, Tom. And I've had a lot of fun being on here. This is genuinely very rewarding for me to be a part of this. So so thank you for having me, and thank you for doing this in general.
I would say my last few thoughts and opinions and just pieces of advice for people that are out there just like me in the field is to be aggressive. Right? And be what I mean by be aggressive is is be bold. Right? Put yourself out there. Right? That's the only way that you're going to be successful is by being that person to reach out. You're not gonna have the physicians reaching out to you 95% of the time. Right? You're that person. You're the only person that can create that meeting.
So be bold regardless of whether you know this person. This is somebody you're still eagerly trying to connect with. So be that person that takes the first steps to get there. But then, conversely, have patience. Right? A lot of MSLs have been doing this job for, you know, 10, 20 plus years, and there's a lot of learnings. They're subtle, but there's a lot of learnings that come through that time period.
And a lot of those relationships that your your fellow MSLs that have been in the field have didn't come overnight. Right? It's from being at every single one of those regional meetings, those grand rounds, you know, the major national and international meetings, from sending those follow ups, from being able to offer advisory board opportunities and research opportunities, etcetera. So it comes with time.
So as much as it's important to put your foot on the gas and and be the one to initiate those meetings and conversations, Recognize that if you're not seeing 30 responses from your first set of outreach, recognize that that is not the fault of you. It's a part of the system. That's why MSL stay enrolled for so long. It's because companies recognize that it takes time to develop relationships. So don't doubt yourself, but just keep continuing on and reach out to other people for advice.
I'm more than happy to have one off conversations with anyone that listen to this and would like to discuss it further. You're awesome, Kealey. Thank you again. And on behalf of all the listeners that are saying the same thing, you're the best. Appreciate it. You gotta come back. We'll do this again. Okay. Looking forward to it. Thanks, Tom. For sure. Okay. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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