Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Paula Pearson, senior director field medical at Apellis, and we discuss how to successfully recruit and hire MSLs virtually. Awesome conversation. Hope you guys enjoy it. Thank you for listening. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Paula. How are you doing today? Thanks for joining me. Hi, Tom. How's it going? Happy to be here. Great. Awesome.
Awesome. So I'm really excited to talk to you because you have a great story to tell, and I can't wait to talk about it. But first, why don't if you can, can you introduce yourself and your background and what you're up to these days? Sure. Paula Pearson. I, have been in the pharmaceutical industry for I'm really gonna date myself about 20 years now. And so I I I just did it. I just dated myself. Got my Pharm d from the University of Kentucky and, way back when.
And since then, I've had a variety of different positions, all within medical affairs at a variety of sizes of companies. I've worked for companies with as few as 50 employees, as many as a 100,000. So kind of it runs, a very wide range of of sizes there, as well as a variety of products and therapeutic areas. I've participated in about 15 product launches, whether being in field medical, in house, or, managing field medical teams. Awesome. Yeah. So I love that.
And, you know, I think it's a good thing that you dated yourself, obviously, because everybody wants to know how much experience you have, and you have a ton, which is great. I love the fact that you've worked for a lot of for a lot of different size companies. And I'm sure you've been involved in a lot of different hiring scenarios. So that's what we wanna talk about.
But before we do that, so can you tell me a little bit about your current company and the size of team that you were looking to build and that sort of thing? Yep. So my current company is, I think we're currently at 340 employees. We're conducting research in the area of complement, and we focus currently on rare hematologic conditions, as well as some other therapeutic areas, including ophthalmology as well.
I currently have 6 MSL supporting hematology with one field director that manages that team. There are 4 MSL supporting ophthalmology and then one payer facing MSL. Depending on the company you're at, you never know what the the title of that person is, but we call it a medical value liaison. So during the past I guess, since January of this year, I've hired 4 MSLs, one field director, and one medical value liaison. And only one of those hires, I believe, was outside of the COVID situation.
Wow. Okay. So then so then let's go back. So you you come into the role and you have to build a team. So, like, when that happened, what was so I'm curious to see what was your hiring process at the beginning, and then how did it change after COVID? So what was it originally? Yeah. That's a little bit different little bit different than it is now. Pre COVID, we would usually post positions for a couple of weeks. You know, after that period of time, we might review the candidates.
Our internal recruiter would reach out for a phone screen for our top candidates. I would follow-up with a phone screen, and then we might pick maybe 3 candidates for live interviews. Mhmm. And then they would fly to Boston, and that's where they when then they would participate in an in person interview. We would usually have about 6 to 7, sometimes more individual interviewers, who were company employees participating in the process.
And usually there was about a 2 week lead time for scheduling just to have travel considerations, and we weren't always able to interview on the same day, you know, to try to get all the candidates through within a a couple of day period of time. Sometimes it might be, spread out a little bit more due to availability. It felt like it took a a longer time than it perhaps should. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, you know, looking at the old way of doing things.
I mean, we're we're far forced into this new way of doing things. We look back at the logistics of how we had to do it pre COVID, and it's definitely a a much more time consuming process. But you also get to meet everyone. Right? Right. And you get to see what the company is like. And you get to see what the inter the candidates are like in person. Right. So now, you're interviewing people through video and you'd have you're hiring people that you've never met. Yes. Right.
So let's talk about that. So you have a normal interview process set up originally. COVID hits. Now was there ever the idea of maybe the company putting the positions on hold? Or was it just, no, we gotta figure this out. It's mission critical. Let's move forward. Yeah. It was pretty much, no, we gotta figure this out. Mission critical. Keep going forward. Got you. Okay. Because I think at the time, we didn't know how long this was going to last. Right.
You know, initially, it was, oh, a few weeks, a month, and now, you know, that was March, and now here we are in July. And Right. I think we had to operate as those things were going to get back to normal quicker than what they really have. Right. So, so you move forward, and then so what how what did you do to change the process? How what was the new system? Yeah. We we changed a lot. We, where it used to be more of a it became more of an ongoing sort of fluid process.
You know, people would apply. We were able to review the candidates almost immediately. There was really no pressure of having to organize travel, you know, dealing with flight cancellations and schedule changes. You know, I think there's still the challenge of balancing schedules with interviewers as well as accommodating the candidate. But in a virtual format, we didn't feel as much pressure to make the choices, I think, as quickly.
If we didn't find a good match during our first round, we'd con we'd conduct an additional round of interviews. So that was nice, I guess, because I didn't really feel the pressure to have to choose really quickly. You know, we did become very sensitized to the fact that I think everybody's heard the term Zoom fatigue. Oh, yeah. You know, it's not uncommon for a lot of us to be on Zoom meetings for hours, during the day.
And we we tried to be a little bit more sensitive to the fact that of the candidate experience. You know, we've we've made the conscious decision to limit the panel to a a to a maximum of around 5 or so, interviewers.
And in in most cases, I think we were able able to make that happen, And we felt like that would make it the experience, better for everyone, and and we also kept the exact same panel of candidates for all of or the exact same panel of interviewers for all of the candidates just to keep consistency. Right. That's great. So, so then let's talk about that. So some of the changes that you made obviously, totally streamlined the process because you don't have the logistical issues.
I love the idea of using the same panel, because then when you do the debrief, it's consistent Mhmm. As far as making decisions. Do you feel like that helped in making quicker decisions? Because everybody kinda knew after a while what the, you know, what the formula was and what you're really looking for. Yeah. I think so. I mean, by the time we got to, you know, interviewing for the, maybe, 5th or 6th open position, it was very much, I think we became very efficient at the process.
We ended up across the open positions that we had, I think we conducted 24 virtual interviews, and I was able to keep almost the exact same panel for all of those Wow. Which was really, which was amazing. So I think I think that, definitely helped. Right. Yeah. So then what what challenges did you face, and and what did you not like about it? For me, I'm really a people person. 1 of my old managers used to joke with me that that she wasn't a hugger, but I was a hugger.
You know, I I very much enjoy seeing people in person. I think, I was afraid that in a virtual setting, you know, it would definitely take away some of that, ability to interact and and read the person better. So for me, just missing that in person experience of an interview, I think, also from the candidate perspective, it made me work that much harder to really have to verbalize the culture of the company and try to put that into light for them.
Yeah. Whereas, if they would have come in for an in person interview Mhmm. They would have been able to observe a lot of those interactions, and more of the dynamics of the culture, I believe, of the company. I think the volume of candidates to interview became a challenge, and we were very fortunate to have that situation. So it shouldn't I shouldn't really call it a challenge, but it became really easy to get bogged down in the process.
And it became really easy to say, well, let's just talk to one more person before we make a decision. So I think it was easy to continue to interview, and I think the risk that you run there is creating a degree of fatigue with the interview panel. Got you. Okay. So then what would you say were the advantages? Obviously, it's, you know, it's definitely easier logistically, and it can speed things up. I think it could speed things up time wise. I don't know.
But what what would you say the advantages are? Yep. I think, several advantages. I think, from a financial perspective, there's no cost to interview people. You don't have to worry about the logistics of someone traveling in. And and like I mentioned before, if there were flight cancellations or weather or travel issues, I think now what we know is that the a lot of these interactions will still remain virtual at least for the near to midterm.
Mhmm. You know, that's gonna be there will be some geographical differences and and, I think, differences in the desire for the KOLs or the HCPs to have those meetings in person. So I think it gave us, really quickly the ability to observe the way the candidates handle technology. Mhmm. Like I said, knowing that many of these interactions are going to be virtual, I think it's really helpful to observe how comfortable people are. How do they respond to a technology failure or challenge?
You know, do they panic? Do they become paralyzed? Do they have contingency plans in advance of that? You know, I had a couple folks who would proactively just send me the slides in advance and say, listen. If something goes wrong Mhmm. During my during my presentation, here here you go. And, you know, in other situations, you know, either, you know, the Wi Fi stops working and then they have to dial it on their phone.
But I think it's very it's very nice to see how people operate in the face of an a non ideal, face to face interaction. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's it creates a whole different set of ways to evaluate. So so let's talk about that. You know, going through it, how how do candidates differentiate themselves in like, on video? Yep. I think it's you I've I've learned that you can have people, that are probably strong communicators, but maybe don't come across as well in a virtual type setting.
They're they are too concerned with the technology or which am I looking into the right camera? Do I have the right screen showing? You know, I think it's very important to have that ability to observe their engagement skills. You I think in person, you definitely have the ability to observe more of the body language, and, I think you definitely miss out on that virtually. But those who differentiated themselves, I think those that made sure they had a neat background.
It doesn't say I mean, you know, you may have heard just a minute ago, my my dogs are barking upstairs. Right? Nobody has an an ideal work from home type of scenario. But I think for those that make the effort to make sure that they're in a a neat, organized area, you know, and clearly, sometimes you can't control things like a pet jumping across the keyboard. We actually had that happen once too. A cat just went right across the keyboard.
I think if you're in a quiet, well lit area, if they've really practiced with their camera and their lighting, they definitely are more confident and not as worried about technology failures. And I think for the candidates to to look comfortable in this space that they're in, You know, it doesn't need to look like they're standing, you know, waiting to get their picture taken, you know, for, you know, like a lineup picture.
Yeah. But I think those who definitely look more, comfortable in their space. Yeah. You talk about the cat jumping across the screen. Like, do were there any, like, fun any other, like, funny stories that came up with, you know, mishaps? There were a couple of instances of, teenagers in the background. Like, someone maybe had a kitchen in the background, wasn't really thinking, thought their teenagers were out for the day. They came in and started, like, making lunch.
You know, just just little, you know, doorbells ringing, deliveries coming, but things like that you can't control. And I think for me, that is never a a deal breaker. Like I said, I've got enough noise in my own house with kids and husband working from home to know that you can't always control everything. But I think it's some of it is just how they respond to that.
We had a situation where, someone was interviewing a woman was interviewing in her kitchen, and I guess she just really had no clue. Her kids were in the background making signs. So, like, hi. She had no idea. She still doesn't know. But so I mean, there's things so obviously, there's things that you try to control and then there's things that you can't control. But like, what Were there any behaviors that you saw that you were really appealing to you?
And then were there behaviors that you saw that you were like, oh, you know, this is a no for me. Yeah. Yes. Short answer to that question. I I felt like those who came in and treated it like a, quote, real interview Mhmm. Whether it was what they choose to wear or how they speak or how they introduce themselves, you know, I would say for those that actually treated it like an in person interview, that was really appreciated. And for me, I even tried to treat it like an in person interview.
I would, you know, put on a blazer and, you know, make sure to at least try to keep things, you know, a little more professional and, you know, even if even if you are in a work from home situation. Know, I think Teams and Zoom now have some of that interesting functionality where you can change the background, so we've definitely had some candidates take care take advantage of that Mhmm. If they didn't have the ability to completely block out block out their background. Right.
So let's switch gears back to Mhmm. The hiring so, obviously, there's advice that we can give to people that are preparing for an interview and what they, you know, should consider doing virtually and and not. But, I mean, you were successful in a in a very difficult task. You built a team during COVID. So what advice do you have for hiring managers? Having done it and gotten through it, what could, you know, what what would you tell hiring managers and and give what advice can you give them?
Yeah. I would say there's still, there are so many great candidates out there right now looking for for positions, whether it's whether it's someone that has 10 or 15 years experience, someone who has a couple years experience, someone who has no experience. You know, I've definitely, started to look more closely at, you know, all of the resumes that there are CVs that are coming in. I would say, you know, just to continue to to to keep an open mind.
And it is very I think while it's a new learning, a new process for us to learn, I think it's also very stressful on the candidates going through that process too. So I think just have that that sensitivity to them and and and and the fact that they're going through the process and kind of learning along with you. Yeah. No. That's great advice. So what do you think happens next? So what's the future for recruiting?
And, like, what's it gonna look like for the next few months, for the next few year, forever? I mean, like, what happens next? That's a very interesting question. And, you know, I think there are a lot of modifications that have occurred in the last 4 months, and we now know that it is possible to interview in this manner. I know there are still people that feel like they don't want to you know, I've heard of people putting positions on hold Mhmm.
Because they want to be able to take advantage of that in person interaction. But I think if you would've asked me this question prior to March, I would have said it's, sure, it's necessary. You need to meet people in person. But after working through this process, I think you become more comfortable with it. I think you quickly learn the ability of people to engage virtually.
And and like I mentioned before, you know, that's what a lot of our interactions are gonna look like for the near to possible mid you know, who knows? Some may be long term. And I think to be able to observe someone in that virtual setting and see if they're able to engage that way. Yeah. You know, sometime it seems like it it it for me, even in work meetings, it is somewhat harder to engage virtually versus if I were just sitting in the room with someone.
Right. For the foreseeable future, I think we'll still continue in a virtual fashion. You know, we currently don't have any requirements, for even the employees to be in the office full time. So, you know, even if a candidate was willing to travel, for an interview, there's a good chance that the people they would be interviewing with, they still might be doing it virtually because they may still be working from home. Right. Next few years? I I don't know.
I think there will be a shift back to in person, but I don't think it will be as prominent perhaps as it was in the past. And and I think as as people get more comfortable with the virtual process, you know, it might not be as necessary. Yeah. Well, it's gonna be interesting. I think everybody's got their own opinion on it, and we'll see kinda how it plays out. For now, we're forced into this. Mhmm. But it seems to have worked for you. So what what's your plan for your team?
What what would you what are you gonna have them do for the, you know, for the next couple of months to the next year? That's a good question too. I think, you know, when all this started back in March, it as as we discussed, you know, you thought you were hopeful that it was going to be a shorter term situation. So, you know, at that point, it was more, okay. Let's work on our individual, you know, KOL engagement plans. Let's work on our individual development plans and goals.
Let's see if there's any online courses or books or things that you want to take advantage of during what would be a little bit slower time. You know, I also worked really hard to try to identify internal opportunities, because we're in a very exciting phase with a couple of our products. So, you know, there's been more opportunity to be able to pull the MSLs into some internal projects Mhmm. That they might not have had the time to get pulled into previously.
So we actually have them working on, you know, for example, developing resources to be able to use in the field, you know, working with our payer team, to strategize about, you know, how we're gonna engage with them in the future. I've even had some folks participate. There were a couple new commercial team members that have joined, so they've been able to participate, in training them.
So we've been looking to try to be creative, and and it's it has given people more, I think, visibility into our internal teams too. Because everybody's you know, where it used to be with the field team, you were really the only ones out on your own little island working in the field, and now every everyone is basically in the field. Yeah. So we've been looking for some creative opportunities.
For the foreseeable for the next little bit, we are working on some virtual engagement strategies with, key opinion leaders, or HCPs, however you'd like to refer to them. So we are working on some some different also scientific exchange programs that we'll be rolling out, to do some disease state education. So yep. And how so a lot of the folks that I've been talking to, what as it relates to metrics and evaluating their MSLs, It pretty much kinda put things on hold into an extent.
So my question is, what what's your philosophy, and and how do you evaluate MSLs during this time? That's a great question. And, you know, I think there's different ways. I think, you know, it's the quantitative versus the qualitative Mhmm. Discussion. Right. We clearly know, and we've seen a lot of different analyses done from different, different folks that talk about the interest or the, you know, even the future interest about HCPs and how willing they're going to be to engage in person.
So we know that this virtual, shift is probably gonna be, in some situations, here for a really long time. You know, I'm encouraging them to make sure and plan for their territories so that, you know, as soon as they are able to get out and have interaction and some of them are already actually, one of my MSLs, had she said she almost would have preferred the act the interaction would have been, virtual because when she went live, they both had masks on.
Yeah. And you're talking to each other, and you can't hear each other, and your your gut reaction is to then lean in and get closer to the person. Right. Yeah. She's like, you know, I wonder if virtual would have been better at that point. But I think there's, you know, there's a variety of different things. I'm not so concerned about the total numbers of interactions.
I think even if they have one interaction, if they're asking the right questions, they can get, you know, 5 or 10 clinical insights to bring back in and help us still continue to develop our medical strategy and help us still continue to be able to make sure that we're developing the right tools for them to use in the field. So, you know, I've been stressing more of the the quality versus the quantity. Right. It's hard because the MSLs wanna be out in the field. They wanna be on a plane.
They wanna be in their car. They wanna go meet with people. Of course. And it's it's been a little, I think, frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's I I tell you, it's an interesting time, and that's why I was really looking forward to talking to you about this topic.
Just to because there's I think there's a lot of leaders, MSL leaders out there that are, you know, concerned that they're not gonna be able to, you know, fulfill their hiring plans, in the same way that they would have, you know, obviously, pre COVID. But it sounds like you've been very successful at it. Congratulations. I mean, this is a really exciting time. It is. It is really exciting. And I'll say one other thing.
I feel like one thing that we also try now to do more is just like you and I are right now, being on video with someone and being engaged, and seeing them. We all joke around about how, you know, we first time we'll all get together, it'll be really weird because nobody's met anybody and I mean, not know, you know, some of them won't have met each other in person.
But, you know, we also make sure that there's a mentor assigned on the team from day 1, the day a new person starts that, you know, they're able to have that touch point and that extra, you know, place to go if they need need other questions answered or, you know, just need some some general help with things. So we've we've made a big effort for the as much as we can, you know, to have those video interactions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I think we're all forced to be really comfortable on camera now.
Yeah. We have no choice. Yeah. Well, I often hear the joke that, and I've told people I'm not camera ready. Yeah. So, you know, just give them the warning. Well, listen. This is great. I mean, any last minute advice you have for MSLs out there or managers or job seekers? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there's still you know, I I'm still aware of a lot of great opportunities. There there's a, you know, a lot of companies that still have these, you know, open positions, I think.
You know, just don't let the fact that things have become virtual for the time being, I would say, deter you from either hiring a position or interviewing for a position. I think, you know, we saw things change very quickly, in at least in March where I lived, it was in March. And I would say just stick with it, and and don't don't hold off on the the process and the possibility of hiring someone because you might just miss someone that would be a great fit. Right. Awesome advice.
Paula, thank you. This was really helpful. I really appreciate you taking a few few minutes to chat with us. Yeah. It was great talking to you. Thanks so much. Congrats again. Best of luck. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Take care. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.