Hey, guys. My guest today is Mia Barnes, medical science liaison. And we talk about how to overcome the you don't have enough experience paradigm. Great conversation. Really interesting insights. I hope you guys enjoy it. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Mia. Thanks for joining me. How are you doing today? I am doing really well, Tom. Thank you so much for having me. Awesome. I'm so excited we're doing this.
I know. I know. It's kinda nerve wracking, but it's it's super exciting. It's a great opportunity. You're gonna be great, and I love your topic. You came up with a really great idea, to talk about, you know, how do you get over this paradigm of you don't have enough experience. But before we get into that, why don't we, why don't you introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and where you're from and what you're up to? Yeah. Absolutely. So I am a pharmacist by training.
So I got my doctorate of pharmacy from Hampton University, and I decided pretty early on that I was gonna be clinical. And it's so funny because I listened to so many other folks that you had on the podcast who have been such a wealth of knowledge, and I've heard little pieces of my story in every single person that I've listened to. And in the sense of when I went into clinical practice, I thought that I was gonna be there forever.
I had there was no way that anyone was gonna drag me into industry at all ever. It was the dark side. You just you just don't go there. But I, you know, I realized eventually that I I got burnt out, and I just felt like I wanted to try something new, and so that's when I transitioned to industry. Majority of my clinical practice is in infectious diseases. Okay. And I transitioned into industry and I never looked back.
And it has been one of the greatest opportunities I've had thus far And just, you know, patient care is so important to me, but having the opportunity to impact patient care in a multitude of different institutions and practices is just incredible. It's it's such a gift to be able to do that and not just be limited to just where I'm I was working. Love it. So let's talk about you mentioned your transition and and how you got into industry. Was that difficult for you?
Did you struggle with that you don't have enough experience paradigm? Yeah. So I think that is a great question. So I think for me, because I wasn't looking, I kinda came to the end of myself in clinical practice and I know that sounds crazy but I just had reached my what's then and I was like, well, maybe I'll just transition to another hospital and see if things will change there.
And actually a recruiter ended up reaching out to me and that's really how I got my first touch with even considering going into industry. And I know prior, like, talking to folks in industry just from interactions that I had from being a pharmacist in clinical practice, I interacted with them often.
You know, it was like, it's really hard to get in and if you don't do a fellowship, you know, you're probably not gonna be able to transition and so I kinda with the sense that I already considered it was the dark side, I kinda just put it to the side. So the experience thing didn't really it didn't really impact me that much until the recruiter reached out and said, okay. Is this something that you're impact me that much until the recruiter reached out and said, okay.
Is this something that you are interested in? And then it was like, okay. But I I'm not gonna be able to. I don't have any industry experience, so I don't know what you're talking about. Well, let me ask you this. So why do you think the recruiter reached out to you? Is it because the position was in infectious diseases where you had so much experience? What what do you think the reason was? Yeah. So I think it's a multitude of things.
So, I think for me and I don't I hate to say the word got lucky, but I think so I transitioned into ID initially as a MSL to support an IV an IV antibiotic. And I think that recruiter and also the company was willing to give someone a chance that didn't have a lot of experience. And I think that that makes a difference in terms of what you're looking for. Like, what does the company want?
And my recruiter that I was working with was wonderful because she gave me tips and pointers on how I can craft my resume and my CV from being something that's solely focused on clinical. And how can I take that clinical background and translate it that I actually can be very effective, with being a MSL? So I think it was a multitude of both those things, like, the company was willing to give someone a chance that didn't have experience.
Mhmm. And also working with a great recruiter that's able to give you tips and pointers who's already been working in industry or working with industry affiliates already. It's great to hear that your, you know, that your recruiter really did her job, so kudos to her. Yes. I think, no, I think that's great, and I think that that's it's very difficult to know, like, how you need to position yourself.
I, what I'm hearing is that, so there was a common I'm not gonna use the word luck, but let's say timing. So timing was a big factor. Mhmm. You were the right therapeutic you had the right therapeutic background, which is huge. And I try to tell people all the time, like, if you don't have the MSL experience, a lot of times, if they're willing to consider somebody without it, you you know, you really need to show them that you're an expert in their therapeutic area.
And I so I think that's a big piece of it, plus your recruiter helped you position yourself. Absolutely, Tom. And you bring such a great point in the sense that I recognize that my passion was infectious diseases, and I could do that whether I was a MSL or whether I was in clinical practice. And I think that was it's also a purse important piece for folks who are trying to transition in the industry as a MSL is that it's not necessarily I'll just take whatever job I can get.
You wanna take something like you said that have that you're passionate about, that you have experience in Because then that can translate into okay. You know, this person doesn't have the MSL experience, but they're passionate about what they do and they're passionate about the science. And that's such a huge part of my role every day. Well, and think about it. If it let's just go back.
If you had, with your infectious diseases background, if you had applied to an oncology MSL position, you wouldn't have gotten it. Yeah. No. You probably wouldn't have even been considered. If you applied for a diabetes MSL position, you probably wouldn't have been considered. So that's how important that, you know, fit and piece is, you know, being able to use your expertise, and and attract the, a potential employer because you fit right into that mold for them.
So I think that's a big piece of the equation. So just out of curiosity, did you tweak your resume? How much preparation was there ahead of time, and how much preparation did you do for the interview? A lot. There was a ton of preparation that I had to do. And like I said, the first thing was I would always recommend and what I recognize was important to me was to read the job description and have a thorough understanding of the job description.
And I also spent a lot of time talking with my recruiter to ask them like, okay, what is someone that would be successful in this position? What is the hiring manager really looking for? Like, you know, give me those things and once I'm able to take those things, I can see if I can fit into that kind of puzzle piece that they're looking for.
So really understanding the job description and then taking, you know, when you when I'm on the floor when I was in the hospital, it was basically engaging with thought leaders, but it just looks different. Right? I was just on the floor.
And so taking those experiences whether they be difficult situations or great situations or situations where I've had to be persuasive in the sense of I know that there's something that the hospital needs to accomplish and I need to bring all the folks to the table to get there to accomplish this one goal.
How can I take those things and translate it onto my CV that it makes me already be perceived that I'm able to educate, which I was, and also able to engage with folks on a multitude of different levels? So again, understanding what the company is looking for, understanding the job description, and then translating that into what my skill set is and what I was good at. And then putting that on paper.
Because that's initially, that's all you have is that is that piece of paper and then whatever the recruiter is able to share about you. That's such great advice. And and when I, when I'm talking to folks in this sit in that situation, I should say, and I talk about matching. You have to match your skills, your transferable MSL skills to your resume.
Mhmm. And the way you do that is you look at the job description for the position that you're applying, and you look at the keywords and this and what we would call search terms to make sure that you're you like, you know, this is a hard thing to do. But if you look at job descriptions a lot MSL job description, a lot of them just say the same thing. Yeah. You know, scientific engagement and, you know, dissemination of clinical data. Like, there's different search terms.
So if you have that experience just maybe in a hospital setting, you still need to be able to to to document that so it's going to prove that you could step into that MSO role and be successful. And it sounds like that's what you did. Absolutely.
Yeah. You know, I realized that first, like, industry is known for having all these acronyms that to the point where you have to, like, just pull out a piece of paper and write down all the acronyms because I wanted to be able to I I, you know, I hate to say that I'm a perfectionist, but it can be a a downside and a good side. But I wanted to be able to speak the language. Like, I didn't wanna walk in and say, okay. I have no idea what you're talking about.
And initially, I didn't know what a KOL was. I didn't know I, like, I don't know what that is. So Yeah. Doing your research to understand the industry terminology so that, you know, you you're recognized that, okay, this person actually did their due diligence to prepare, and they're very serious about trying to come on board. And I'll tell you, that goes such a long way. You have to cross every t and dot every I, and go above and beyond and be able to talk the talk, know the lingo.
So and you're you're proof. And I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to, whether it's on this podcast or just in my my normal day job where the people that get the jobs are the ones that go the extra mile all the time. Yeah. So I appreciate that. So alright. So now you you get the job, and now you're a brand new MSL with no experience Mhmm. Probably on a team with other MSLs with a lot of experience? No. So that was also the great part. My I I love that team.
So we ended up having 6 of us that joined at the same time. Okay. And all of us were coming from clinical practice. Wow. Yeah. So that was there was already I think there was 4 MSLs already in place, and then there was 6 of us. So, you know, it was such a unique situation to come on board with people who had similar experiences me and we were all going through it together.
And I realized probably in, like, probably week 2 or week 3, I'm not going into a office or into a hospital anymore where I can just run down and talk to my pharmacist colleague and get advice or so forth. And so it's really essential at that point, I recognized, to really make good relationships with those who are on my team because those are the people that you really, really need to be successful as well. It's just so many pieces that have to come together to be successful. Yeah. For sure.
But there was definitely, in terms of and I hate to use the word challenge, but it was hard because you come from a place, like, in in the hospital setting, I was a specialist. So everyone recognized that that was infectious disease was my specialty. And so I I don't wanna say I was the expert, but I was the person that was kind of at the point of, okay, what if it's ID, go talk to Mia. She can help me and she can be there.
And when you transition into industry, you go back to the bottom of the totem pole because everyone has experience in infectious disease. Everyone was the expert, and now you're I don't have any industry experience. So it's like, you know, it's a change of pace from going from kind of the top of the totem pole, and I need to say that because I don't look at myself as better than anyone, but where you're kind of an expert and then you have to go back to, okay. I'm back at the beginning.
How do I obtain the knowledge that I need to obtain to kind of continue to proceed in the area that I don't know? Yeah. Well that I was an expert to being in something that I I I don't know. I have to learn. And you're an achiever, and you're goal oriented, and you come into that situation, and you wanna do well. Mhmm. Exactly. That so then how did how did you overcome that situation?
So you went from let's just say, you probably weren't low man on the let's just say you were the low man on the totem pole. Like, what did you do to build your experience and bring yourself, you know, out of that situation? I've watched I was so perceptive about everything, whether it be my director or whether it be the other MSLs who are already there for 2 or 3 years on the team. But to watch what they did and to ask questions.
That was really, really important for me to really just take a step back and say, okay. What because I think with every company, at least, you know, my industry career isn't that long, but I think with every company, they have different things that they look at the MSO team for success and what makes someone a good MSO versus a great MSO at that specific company. Mhmm. And so it's important to me to kind of watch and to learn and to kind of fall back and say, okay.
There's so much I can learn from you. Let me not try to be like, okay. Well, I know ID and gram positive blah blah blah blah. No. You are able to be successful in this position. So what can I learn from you? So mentorship is really important. A lot of times the company well, in my company, they gave us a mentor, which was someone that we could just talk to, and that wasn't our manager because that's the other piece of it. Right?
You you wanna come across, like, you know what you're doing with your manager. So to have someone else who's senior on the team to mentor you and kind of be your guide was super helpful. And then building relationship with everyone on my team as well because there's something that you can that I realized I could learn.
There was 10 of us, but there was 9 things that I could learn from each of them based on what their skills that was that I could bring into my practice and make sure that my territory was where I know it needed to be. That's great. So you come in, you know, and you're you're new, and you absorb everything. You watch everyone, and you're you're learning from everyone. You get mentors. So then what happens next? You develop this skill set.
Like, how hard was it to go from no experience to, wow, I'm an MSL now. Right? How like, how I mean, for for people that are listening right now that are either new to the role or wanna get into the role, how can you help level set their expectations? All these things are this is great advice, mentorship and, really watching and listening. But you're in it. Right? I think for me, the biggest so this goes back to the perfectionism.
And I honestly think every MSL that I met had some form of perfectionism or, like, they wanna be the best. They wanna be excel to excel. Because that I think that that's just a necessity of being in the role. I think for me, I had to get okay with 1, it's okay that I may fail and I don't want to, but I have to be okay with I'm still learning and it's okay if I don't know everything, but I'm willing to do the extra mile to learn.
So I think that that took a lot for me to say, okay, it's okay if I, if I don't know this or if I'm not able to secure that appointment. It's just it's so much administrative piece of it as the MSL that you have to do as well. And so how do you be okay with, alright, I've emailed forever 10 times and I'm not getting any meetings. Man, I'm I stuck as a MSL. No. You you can't do that. You I realized I had to weigh that and my manager was great about that.
She's like, you have to it's you know, one day, if you're gonna be a rock star and the next day, you're gonna be like, oh, today wasn't so great, but I'm gonna try again tomorrow. And I think the word that I'm looking for is resilience. I think that's the big thing is to be resilient in the sense that every day is not going to be this magical experience and to be okay with that and to continue to self motivate yourself that it is okay.
I'm gonna be I'm gonna keep trying to be great every day and and some days that might not happen. Wow. I mean, that's such a common theme, you know, to be adaptable and resilient. And, I mean, so it it just speaks to the importance of those virtues to be successful in the role. So you you get to that point. And so how many how many years of experience do you have now? I have 3 years of experience. So So that's like like, might be a lifetime of experience to some people. Right?
And it's certainly the sweet spot of what we see from employers that are looking for experienced MSLs. We hear that a lot. We want somebody with at least 3 years of experience. Yeah. So how do you feel now that you have 3 years of experience knowing what you've already done and where you've what you've already accomplished? And looking into the future, what's next? Like, what do you do with that 3 years of experience? Yeah. So, you know, that's such a great question.
And I know you asked me in the beginning, like, where am I now? And so to be in a period of transition right now, you know, going back also, I recognize what was important with even once I got up to speed with understanding what would make my territory successful was to then have the drive and to make sure it was okay with my manager in the company to get exposure to different aspects of industry. Right? Because it's just not just the field.
And so have I had a company that really allowed me to get my hands involved in whether it be content development, with the be poster presentations, whatever it could be so that I could get exposure to this area that I I didn't have any experience with. So that was also really important as well to to ask. Is it possible for me to get experience? What once my territory is taken care of because that's my priority. But after that, is there other areas that I can obtain exposure in?
Now being 3 years in, I've hit a spot where I honestly did not expect to be because I'm like, they say, once you're in, you're in. You're good to go. Once you get a year under your belt, you can go anywhere. But I've hit a point with trying to transition and decide what my next goal is is that I'm hearing you have experience, but it's not enough. So you're getting that so now you're right back to that same paradigm. I know. Exactly.
And it just it it's was so unexpected because for me, it's just like, well, I've demonstrated that I am competent and capable capable to excel as an MSL. I love what I do. I'm passionate about what I do. So it was just it kinda took me back like, what do you mean? I I don't have experience. I don't have enough experience. Like, this is not what is supposed to be happening.
So I think that has now opened the doors for me to kinda see things differently and take a step back and reevaluate how do you get through that. So let me let's take a step back. So what do you not have enough experience for? Is it the positions that you're trying to get into? Like, whether leader leadership positions or more senior MSL positions or, you know, what are the career options that you're looking for that that you're being told you don't have enough experience?
Yeah. So right now, I think I'm at the point of 3 years is kinda at the point where you could potentially transition into a senior role into a senior MSO role. And while that's not ultimately my goal, it would be nice. I I you know, titles aren't big for me, but I think what has happened or what experience I've had and I'll give a particular instance was, you know, I interviewed through the whole position. They thought it was great culturally. They were like, we love you.
We think you're fantastic. But they came back and said, you know, the territory is really large, which it was. It was like the whole northeast, and we just don't know if you're capable to manage a territory that large.
Now that situation was very specific because the company actually didn't give me an opportunity to address to rectify or to explain myself even despite because for me, another thing that's important when you're interviewing is to ask, are there any concerns about my candidacy that I can adjust for you now? Right? Because I don't want to have to get to the point of the end.
And so to go back into here, like you're fantastic, you're wonderful, we think you're great, but we just don't know if you can manage that territory. I realized that maybe I didn't do a good enough job, demonstrating because my territories have been somewhat sometimes smaller, but demonstrating that I have the capacity to manage a larger territory and to be able to multitask and to overemphasize the importance of time management and multitasking and so forth.
And maybe, you know, I believe that everything happens for a reason, but it's it's potentially has allowed me to now consider differently moving forward of how do I make sure that on my CV and also on my when I'm speaking that I'm overemphasizing these things if I'm looking at a territory that's larger. And that hasn't been all the time necessarily, but it's been a few times in which I've heard that I don't have enough experience.
Well, you know, that's the thing that's tricky is that there's nuances to every position and to every company. Yeah. So one company may call someone with 3 years of experience a senior MSL with no problem. That's they just meet that criteria. Other companies, there's other clients of ours that they won't call you a senior MSL unless you have 10 or more years of experience. That's their criteria. There's no real standard in the industry. There's no standard in it.
Yes. So it's that's just a frustrating part of it. It is. And, you know, I think it it ties into the fact of that resilience again that it's okay. Like, you know, even if that company was not the right fit, and at least they said that they liked me. Right? Like, that's the good part, but it's okay that I didn't make it to that point. But how can I then find a position that kind of can k, I can tailor to and I am a good fit in because there certainly is one there for me?
But again, going back, the other thing that I realized that there were other activities that I had done, in my other previous roles that I don't think I overemphasized enough. And I didn't touch on them enough to highlight, okay, this is what I've done. I've had experience in this.
So another suggestion that I definitely would get give to anyone looking to start off in industry or if they're in industry, is to keep a journal of all of the activities, whether it be like a good, you know, a good engagement. What does that look like for you? If you have like a rock star one, write it down and write out the specifics of it. If it was a bad one or a challenging one, and what did you do to overcome it? Write that down.
If there's any special project that probably was one of the best advice that my old manager gave to me is write down everything. It may seem silly, but you can always go back because you kind of forget. You're just like, yeah, I was the MSL, but then I'm like, oh, well, I did a poster. I did this. I had this challenge. You know? And those things are the things that people wanna hear and you need to need to learn that you're capable of doing.
I mean, that's such great advice because when you interview, those are the questions you're asked. Mhmm. Right? Aren't those the typical interview questions that you get Yep. Is to talk about a difficult situation with a KOL or, you know, something in your territory. How did you overcome it? What are you most proud of? What are some of the highlights of your career? So by by keeping that journal, it keeps everything fresh and almost categorized in a way. Exactly. Exactly.
So that has definitely been something that has helped me and has allowed me to practice, you know, my interviews. Just like I have to practice before I have an engagement with a thought leader of what I'm gonna get to and what insight I need to obtain and how am I gonna do that. It's the same thing with interviewing regardless if you have MSL experience or not. That doesn't change. Yeah. That's great advice. So just out of curiosity, so do you have, like, a notebook, like or is it a spreadsheet?
It's a Google Doc. Yeah. It's a It's a Google Doc. Mhmm. It's a working Google Doc that I just anything that I do or that a special project or if I get an opportunity to do something, I jot it down. That is awesome. And that's just And it wasn't my idea. It was I have to say, that was my old manager. Her name is Lauren. She was the one that gave me that advice. So I am thrilled. Good job, Lauren. Good job, Lauren. Shout out to Lauren.
Yeah. That's a great mentor and a great leader, and and look at the impact. And Yeah. Hopefully, others will will take that advice. And, you know, I mean, it's it's probably something that a lot of people are gonna say, oh, that's too tedious. I don't have time to do that.
But there's a lot of reward that can come from that because down the road, when you're looking to update your resume, for example, or you're getting prepared for an interview, you can pull that that that that sheet out, that Google Sheet that and and you're you know, you have all the information that you need. Yep. And the more detailed, the better. Because I know being a mom, having a job, being a wife, and doing all these things, you forget about some of those things.
And so it's really important that you're able to kinda refresh your memory like you said and just go back. I realize I have to whether it be old age or what, I have to write everything down. And so that has just been a helpful tip. I'm right there with you. Sure. So, I love your story. I love all your ideas.
You have such great suggestions, and I know that there's a lot of folks that are going to be tuning into this that are struggling with the fact that they don't have experience, but they're looking to break into the role. Or maybe they're looking to apply to a position that may be a little above their stature at this this stage of the game. Mhmm. So what other advice might you have for those folks? Absolutely.
I think for if you know, there's what I also love about industries, there's so many you know, it's not just pharmacists. It's not just medical doctors. It can be a PhD. It can be nurses. It can be physicians assistants. There's so many people from so many different backgrounds that I've had the opportunity to work with on a team. But I think what's most important and what I've recognized, and again, I I said this earlier, is to find what you're passionate about.
And whether you're in clinical practice or whether you're in a community setting or wherever you're practicing at or whatever your job is now, find what you're passionate about it and take a deep dive into that and get as much knowledge in that area that you can. And then find a role even if it takes some time, find a role that fits that passion that you have because that passion is gonna translate regardless if you don't have industry experience or not.
So just taking the time, you know, I think we can say like, oh, I have experience in diabetes and oncology and I can do hepatology and I can do this, but I think it's easier to really hone in and focus on, like, a disease state or 2 disease states in which you can really become, like, over inundated with it and really get as much knowledge as possible, get as much experience in that area as possible, and then translate that into joining a company on the
industry side that you can then bring that passion and that clinical practice into that. That's such great advice. And everything that you offered today was amazing, and there's gonna be so many people that are out there that are grateful for your contributions. I know I am. So, thank you so much for joining me today, and and best of luck. And keep doing what you do because you're awesome.
No. Thanks, Deb. I'm a work in progress, but I I I cannot thank you enough time for, the opportunity to be here and to have this conversation with you. It has been a wonderful experience and even allowed me to just learn so much, from the old podcast that you have and even just an opportunity to do this. I listen. I thank you again. You're awesome. Good luck to you. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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