Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kathy Guindon, and she is US medical director at GE Healthcare. And we talk about how to manage up and have a successful relationship with your manager. So really interesting conversation. I hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, YouTube, and Instagram, and check us out on MSL Talk Live on Clubhouse, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Kathy. Thanks for joining me. How are you doing today? I'm great, Tom. How are you? Thanks for the opportunity. Yeah. I'm excited. This is great. I know, you know, we've gotten to know each other just really through kind of the conference circuit, seeing you around, and, we've kept in touch.
And I think this is gonna be a treat for everyone because I know you're awesome, and you have a ton of experience. And I'm looking forward to chatting with you. Same. I would like to say you're you're you're awesome as well. I I think the first time we met was at a DIA meeting. Yeah. And it's just been a a great to follow your organization and and, have the opportunity to chat with you here and there. So thanks for this opportunity. Yeah. No. It's gonna be great.
So why don't we start just with an intro? Just if you wanna introduce yourself and tell everybody who you are and what you're up to, that sort of thing. Sure. My name is Kathy Guinden. I've been in medical affairs my entire life in industry. I'm a registered nurse by training, career MSL, and been in the management gig for probably the last 5 to 6 years, managing a team of, field medical, experts, MSLs. Mhmm. Awesome. And so I know I kind of brought this topic to you.
So sometimes folks will come to me with a specific idea or a topic. And you and I were talking, and I had mentioned that someone came to me with the idea of how to manage up and have you know, to develop a more successful relationship with your supervisor. So and I really appreciate you jumping in and stepping in because I think this is gonna be a great conversation. So let's start with, I guess, what does that mean? What does it mean to manage up? Yeah. That's a great question.
And, you know, I I'm not sure there's a perfect definition, but we all you know it when you see it. You know it when you feel it. And being a manager of a team, you manage your team, so you manage down, but you also have to manage up to the individuals you report to within the hierarchy in the organization, your direct supervisor and even above him, in various leadership calls. And to me, managing up is number 1, making my life easier and making my manager's life easier.
And a lot of how I start to to manage up is to to learn learn about my manager. Yep. So start learning what the hot buttons are and what your manager's really looking for, what the expectations are, and then do what you can to keep your manager happy Exactly. In a sense. Exactly. And so how do we relate that to field medical affairs? Why is it important for, specifically, MSLs? Because, obviously, that's this podcast is about.
Specifically, MSLs and field medical affairs professionals to manage up, and what advice do you have for folks? Yeah. So why I think it's important for MSLs is depending on your manager's experience, how they deliver goals for your team or metrics, I often find that's a big area where I manage up.
So I have to educate them on quality over quantity, I think a lot of times, and how I can demonstrate activity of a field medical team without, you certainly can't tie it to sales and without just call history because, you know, so that's a big part of my managing up from the first get go of an MSL team is where are you at with goals for the team? If I set these goals, you know, how does that resonate with you and your experience?
So that's one area I find, critical to manage up and gain an understanding initially right off the bat. And what about so you you mentioned quality, which is so important nowadays. And anytime we talk about metrics, it's quality over quantity. And some companies do have more quantitative metrics than qualitative. But let's just talk about that for a second. So when we talk about quality, are is it just performance, or how important is attitude and effort? Yeah. Great question.
So let me just dial back in a sense. So quantity is important, you know, and I do weave that in in a softer way. Right? I I wanna make sure I'm seeing activity. Right. And we're seeing activity. Yeah. So that gets to it. So there's always quantity, but effort shows me that there's quality work going on. So if they're putting forth effort and how I gauge that is through 1 on 1 communications with my team.
Yeah. I can really have a great feel if this this individual's, comfortable with their goals, understands who they need to reach out to in the territory, understands meeting coverage, how to handle investigator requests, for sponsored trials or or in the investigator sponsored trials. Just, you know, it's their effort certainly goes a long way and helps me to help my manager understand this is all of the the activities this team has going on.
Yeah. Well, I think that, you know and that's that's my thing. I manage a team here. And there's there's 2 things that I I look at. There's performance, and there's attitude. Performance If you're performing, I'm not gonna give you a hard time. And if you are performing and you have a really good attitude and you come to work every day and you're ready to get after it, But you're also have this really great demeanor, and you're really positive, and people want to engage with you.
Well, there's that's an intangible. That means a lot. That I think in that just in that sense alone, you're managing up. You're making your manager's life better because you're checking off all the boxes that you need to to. Is is am I oversimplifying this? No. I and that's the issue. Right? It's it's there. It's nebulous. You know it when you feel it. You know when you're managing up. You know it when you're doing it, but I think attitude is a huge piece. Right?
If you're gonna gain any equity with anyone in the organization, even your manager, it's showing up and having that can do attitude. Yeah. And even, you know, so and part of managing up is learning how they react, right? So, I've had managers who like to have a lot of fun, work hard, play hard. I've had managers that, you know, they're more muted.
They just wanna kind of, you know, know where we are on the team and add, you know, add interject with, suggestions, for what they think needs to be accomplished in addition. Yeah. Well and I I think that you you and you mentioned this before, but I think it's important to have an understanding of what the hot buttons are and and what makes your manager happy. So to thinking about that, how important is communication as it relates to this manage up concept? Yeah. It's hugely important.
You wanna set up a regular cadence of communication, probably, weekly. You know? And if you don't need to talk, you can always cancel, but at least having cadence because I find in situations where I don't have that cadence, I'm more curious. What is he thinking? Is he okay with the job I'm doing? Can I continue to focus and steer my team in this direction? So, yeah, I I think communication is essential and, regular communication. Yeah. And listening skills. Right?
Just really being able to not just listen, but pay attention to detail and what it is that's most important. Agree. Yes. Agree. And and I find in in this area, you also listen to email in in a crazy way. There's tone. There's, highlighting importance within the message. So a lot of, verbal and nonverbal communication. I'm I'm leaning in, listening for the cues. So that's funny. So then everything counts. Right? So email counts, text counts. Yeah. All these things count now.
It's different, you know, back a 1000000 years ago when we first started in I'm not speaking for myself. But, you know, I mean, I've been doing this a long time and and in the beginning jeez. When when I first started, like, there were still fax machines. We're getting resumes faxed. Yeah. I remember MapQuest. Yeah. MapQuest. So, you know, we're in this we're in this digital age now where we can see each other on video. We can communicate via text and and and via email and all this other stuff.
So I think it there becomes a cumulative effect, right, that could play into all this, and we could probably use it to our favor, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I I even think COVID has made the, nonverbal communication that much more, I mean, certainly verbal, as we've moved to Zoom, Teams, platforms to engage with our customers, our key opinion leaders. But, you know, the getting them to the meeting with with an email.
So with that in mind, so as as we start to look at and getting back to kind of the performance side of the equation. Mhmm. Obviously, there's gonna come a time where people are gonna have their performance review, which is a really good opportunity to manage up and to have a chance to really connect and make sure that there's alignment and that communication as far as goals and metrics and objectives, all comes to the fore this is a stressful time for folks.
So how do you advise people get ready for their performance review? I like to think of it as a fluid process. So I have weekly 1 on ones with my team, and I'm always checking with them usually one part of their global goals. You know, how are you doing here? How close are you getting here? I encourage them to let me know when they're getting stuck somewhere. Chances are, if they are, other team members are, so we can, you know, mitigate that together.
But it's a kind of an ongoing performance review. It's really not just that day. They they should go in for my team, they kinda go into their knowing their performance review annually knowing where they kinda stand, just based on the conversations we've been having throughout the year. That's because you're a great manager. Thank you.
Well but, I mean, I think there's situations where if you're if you're having one on ones each week and you're that dialed in and you have a really strong understanding of maybe the strengths and weaknesses of your team, well, you're on top of it. But what happens when you have maybe the the manager or the scenario or the MSL that is only meeting with their supervisor once a month? And then they have to prepare. I mean, I think that's a different scenario.
Yeah. That is a very different scenario. Then they're managing up to their manager. So I think, you know, some of the same things apply. You know? What what is important to that manager? How do they demonstrate, that they're getting the job done, making things easier for their manager? You know, do I have to remind you to do an expense report? I mean, that's that's no brainer stuff. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that you know, it's so funny.
I really feel like that's the one, like, kinda chink in the armor of MSLs is that there it's so often that comes up. Well, I'm really not good with the paperwork side, or I'm not great with my expense reports. And my manager's always on me to to get my expense reports in. So, obviously, that's that's a real area that if if that's a requirement, and you know that's a that's something that really gets, you know, up in the crawl of your manager, then doesn't it just make sense to just get it done?
Totally. Agreed. You know? And it's it's sometimes the communication helping them understand, it's not that I'm a stickler. It's it's if you give me 6 months worth of expenses, I have to go through all that. It's just, you know, courtesy. Yeah. No. It is. And I know it's easy for me to say. I'm I'm, you know, I'm I don't wanna insult or get MSL's mad at me for saying, hey. Just do it. Because I know that you're paying Same. Exactly.
I know I try to make my team understand why, you know, why it's important, you know, because then I can get on to other things and help them do their job, help our team excel. If if I have every other week expense reports, then it's very easy to quickly go through that and check that box out for the week. And I'll tell you, and it almost I mean, I'm sitting here.
Again, I'm oversimplifying it, but it's almost like put yourself in the other person's shoes and think about what are they tasked with, what do they have to go through, and what are you know, what's, you know, my efforts and what I'm responsible for doing? How does that affect their job? Am I making their job easier? Am I making their job harder? If I'm making their job harder, how do I fix it? Right.
Exactly. And I you know, I think what you've helped me understand in in preparing for, you know, this discussion, everybody's managing up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we all need we all report to somebody in some way, shape, or form. And we all have to kinda take a step back, I think, sometimes, and just say, okay. You know, how do I make this person's life better? Or how do I impress upon this person?
And because we all have that responsibility to, you know, to to to make our managers' lives easier, but also to protect our own performance review and our own, you know, the the opinion of the folks that exist above us, so to speak. Again, kinda dumbing it down, but I think it's pretty basic stuff. No. I I totally, yeah, I totally agree with you. You're you're right on point. But now how how about when we look at because you mentioned COVID, and and that's always something that comes up.
And and it's something that we are still in and we're still dealing with, and it's it's very real. And and what COVID taught us was that at any point in time, things could change really drastically. So what happens in an ever changing dynamic world, and what advice do you have for MSLs that are, you know, are are still trying to make their managers happy in that scenario? Flexibility and communication. Those are so important.
So we all had to be flexible, but we also had to communicate, like, when New York City was shut down in the beginning of the pandemic by MSO, she communicated with me and, you know, shared with me. I I can't engage these guys scientifically right now. That they're it it's rude, you know. Think about this. And we both, you know, made realistic goals. You know, well, maybe you can use your expertise and help build on the team you know, build up activities like insight collection with the team.
Let's train them up better on insight too. Let's have additional training. So, flexibility, adaptability, and communication. That's great advice. You know, it's so funny. We you know, we I'd we do these podcasts, and there's always people that reach out to me after, and they they let me know what the takeaways are. I kinda think that that's the sound bite is flexibility, adaptability, and communication.
It are and I think it almost really, it it applies to this whole conversation, not just COVID. I think that if if that if you can work on that, I think just that piece of it alone would make your manager and your manager's managers happy. Agreed. And and you know what? You know, you may think, well, I I don't know how to manage up. How do you talk to your spouse? How do you talk to your children when you need them to get something done? So you're doing Yeah. You're doing it every day Mhmm.
In in other walks of your life. So that's why it's important to pay attention to it. Well, this is not a reactive thing. This is a proactive thing. I think that's one of the other key points that we have to focus on is that I you you can't really just be reactive with this because then it's too late. Yeah. This has to really be a proactive thing. Yes. Yeah. Totally. When you're new to a team, it's important to establish a good communication practice with your with your manager.
Learn their their hot buttons, as we were talking earlier. Yeah. How is your team doing? Obviously, with, you know, we're it's June. Right? We came through, and we're hopefully turning the corner on COVID. Some companies are getting back to travel. Some are still totally virtual. How are things going with you and with your team? Again, it's that flexibility, adaptability, and communication. I think, you know, they're starting to understand, where they may be able to travel to meetings.
For instance, there's a large breast cancer meeting, San Antonio Breast Cancer meeting in December, which I believe is both virtual and live. So we're starting to make decisions now. Do we have live interactions, or do we keep things virtual? So it's and what does our company think? You know, what what do they what do they have to say about what we can and should should and should not do for the safety of the whole organization, this worldwide global company? So, it's flexibility, adaptability.
Let's say we plan virtual, and then 3 months ahead, we decide to pivot. We have to be flexible and and think ahead. And There's a lot of pivoting going on. I mean, it's every every day is a new pivot. You know, I was I was speaking to, a client that is struggling with the dilemma of email and email communication with their, MSLs and their KOLs. How how do you view email communique? I'm I'm curious because now this is in my head now.
So I'm just curious what your opinion is and how you guys go about the, that means of communication with KOLs. Right. I think because we can't drive and and go in and see the admin and get a meeting on the books, which I think now and and they're very busy, and everyone's trying to reach their KOLs virtually with Zoom meetings. You have to manage up to them. You know, is there something, that they you have to find that hook.
Yeah. How can you get them to respond to your email and go for that meeting? Yeah. So was and it's funny is and I should have probably been more specific too. Some of my clients don't allow email communication at all. They don't wanna get into it. They don't wanna open themselves up to any issues, clients' legal issues. Some do. Some do it a lot more than others. Some only do it as a means of gaining meetings.
Is is that more what you guys are using it for an email almost to just, you know, request a meeting? No. No. We're we're having, and COVID really has allowed, more of this. It's important to have, you know, conversations. So it's easier for that clinician to give me, information, substantive information, we are collecting it. I think where you have to be careful is if there's an adverse event, then you need to make sure that that's, you know, reported up the chain. So we yeah.
Everyone has to be up to speed on compliance, but I've actually never worked in an organization, that has required me only to use email with clinicians for meetings only. Yeah. Well, I'm hearing and I'm I'm becoming a student of this, and I'm asking a lot of people.
And that's why I wanted to talk about this a little bit and get you know, we're venturing off the the main topic, but I think it's an important part of the conversation because I think a lot of people are, I'm not gonna say confused, but concerned as to how to use this. It's obviously a very important tool. I think the MSL study came out with a survey last late at some point in time last year. And 82% of KOLs said that they prefer email as one of the primary means of communication.
So it is a thing. It's definitely a thing. And and everyone's using it, but to what extent and to what degree really, really varies. So that's why I think it's an important conversation. But be and and I'm stretching. I'm really stretching here, so bear with me.
But because of the fact that it is has become so popular and and because of COVID, I mean, does it get to the point where it really becomes more standardized in, in how it's being used and if it can be a part of your goals, objectives, or metrics. No. I was gonna go there. I'm glad you you stretched and went there because that's part of the managing up. Right? I mean, like, is that an interaction? Is a substantive email conversation an interaction? I would argue yes. Not, can we have a meeting?
That's that's not an interaction. It's then, you know, you have the communication about something over, over email. And and I and I I feel safe in the sense that I make sure that my team understands the compliance of the organization. I usually have, regulatory and compliance present to the team at least once a year, just to keep it fresh in our minds. But yeah, I think if they're attuned to compliance, it's important.
It's so key to our ability to engage, especially in the era of COVID, that, it there's definitely managing up there. Are are you comfortable as my manager with that? Yeah. Well and that's the other thing too. What better way to manage up than stay out of trouble?
So I think almost as important as anything else that we've discussed today is that if you can note first of all, know the rules of the road, the rules of the team, the rules of the industry, whatever it might be, and stay out of trouble and make sure that you're not getting your man yourself in trouble or your manager in a in a difficult spot. So I I know that this seems really kinda stupid. I think that that's a really important piece of this. Right. Definitely. Knowing the rules is is key.
Well, that's a future episode. We're we're trying to I'm I'm trying a lot of people have asked me. A lot of people have asked me. We need another, you know, primer on compliance. You know? We need to we need to cover that. So that's that's a whole another conversation and a whole another episode. But this was really I mean, this was really insightful and really important.
And this is something that I think, I I learned a lot from, but it's also I think it just goes back to every single day, we have an opportunity to just do a good job. And and when when the day's over and we're quote, unquote driving home from work, which we don't even do anymore. But Yeah. Let's just say that we we we pack everything up. You know, what could we have done better? What could we have done differently? And maybe it becomes a matter of not just thinking about our own performance.
We have to think about, well, what should I or could I be doing to help my manager and make my manager happy? Exactly. Great summary. Great summary. And, you know, that's this has been educational for me as well. So as much as I've imparted some helpful information from my colleagues, just hearing some of your thoughts has been, you know, I just like you just said, at the end of the day thinking, did I make my manager's life easier today?
Yeah. Well, I'm hoping that all my the folks that work for me are listening to this right now. For selfish reasons. But, no, Kathy, you were great. I I really wanna thank you for coming on. This is great conversation, and, we definitely have to spend some time. And so Fabulous. When like, when am I gonna see you at a meeting? Like, when are meetings coming back? When are we gonna be able to to start getting out there? I'm hoping Q4. I've seen a regional northeast regional meeting go live today.
Yeah. And, of course, the large San Antonio Breast Congress will have live and virtual. So I think it's coming. Oh, that's gonna be great. I really look I I love to travel. I love to see everyone. I love to get out there. So, I hopefully, it'll happen this year to your point, but I think we're gonna really get back into a normal routine in 2022. Agreed. Yeah. But whatever the case, I'm looking forward to seeing you out there. Same here, Tom. Awesome. Be well. Talk to you soon. Thanks.
Sounds great. Talk to you soon, Tom. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.