Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Aoife O'Dwyer. She is the founder of MSL Consultant, and we discuss how to leverage KOL relationships to achieve strategic objectives. So great conversation. Hope you guys enjoy it. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hi, Aoife. How are you doing today? Hey, Tom. How are you? I'm good. Thanks. Great. Great. Great. Hey. Thanks so much for joining me.
I, I really appreciate you coming on, and I love I love the topic that you came up with today. I think it's so important to, for MSLs to, to show their value and and leverage their relationships, and, we're gonna get to that. But before we do, I'd love for you to, you know, introduce yourself a little bit and kinda tell everybody, you know, who you are, where you came from, and what you're up to these days. Yeah. Of course. So I'm a former academic.
I did my PhD in Ireland a good few years ago, and I knew quite quickly that academia really wasn't for me. I didn't really enjoy working at the event, though I did enjoy speaking at conferences and discussing science. So soon into my PhD, I started to kind of identify other possible career options. At the time, the only thing I knew about was PhD postdoc and principal investigator in terms of career progression.
So I did some digging around and did some research, and the medical science liaison rule is one that came up a lot. So I reached out to my network, and I was able to start some conversations with MSL. And the more I learned about the role and how it mixed scientific communication with a strategic mindset, I really felt like it would be a good fit for me. So after my PhD, I moved to Australia in search of sun, and I got my first MSL role with GSK, and I really haven't looked back since.
After working as an MSL and a senior MSL for a number of years, I then founded MSL Consultant. The aim of MSL Consultant is to create the next generation of high performing, value adding strategic MSL. I offer an online course for aspiring MSL to teach them everything they need to know about getting their first MSL job without MSL experience, And I also offer 1 on 1 coaching to MSLs currently in industry to teach them how to excel and demonstrate their value to the pharma company.
Awesome. Well, I know a lot of people well, a lot of people need those services. So, you know, again, I appreciate you coming on, and, and I and thank you for telling your story too. I think a lot of people wanna know, you know, how how to make the transition and and have hope to know that you can be an a PhD or a PharmD or an MD that is, is looking to transition, and there are different avenues and different roads that you can take. What do you what do you like most about what you do right now?
Just curious because, obviously, you're an MSL. You made this transition. Tell me a little bit about, you know, what you love about what you do. So when I got more experience at at MSL and became a senior MSL, I had the opportunity to mentor more junior medical affairs members. And all the questions they asked me were really practical things, and they were the type of questions that I had when I was first in MSL. So really simple things like, how do I reach out to KOLs?
What do I actually say in an email to a KOL? How do I know if a KOL is influential or not? When I get a meeting with a KOL, what do I talk about? How can I add value to the KOL, and how can I show my company that the insights I'm getting and the conversations I'm having are actually useful? One of the, challenges with being an MSL is that often, MSLs report to medical directors and very, very busy senior medical managers.
And, unfortunately, sometimes, these managers don't have the bandwidth to support and train their MSLs. And as a result, a lot of kind of new MSLs, they're not exactly sure how to start adding value to their company. So that's something that I really enjoy about my role because it's helping people who are in my position when I first started as an MSL. So I really feel I understand exactly what they're going through.
And having been in MSL for a number of years, I've kind of developed a lot of different techniques and tools and experience to really help MSL demonstrate their value to the company. Yeah. Well, let's I mean, that's perfect transition. Let's let's jump right into it, because, obviously, that's what we're gonna be talking about today. So what advice would you give MSLs who are looking to demonstrate value to their company?
Yeah. So this is something that I'm so passionate about because I often feel within medical affairs, people within medical affairs are recognized for their scientific expertise, but not so much for their strategic input. And that's something that I'd really love to change within the industry. So in order for MSL to demonstrate their value to the company, there's a few different things they can do.
I think step 1 is to understand what the company is trying to achieve with the product the MSL is working on. So for example, say the overall objective of a brand is to increase vaccination coverage rates for over 65 in Australia. So say you're an MSL who's working on vaccines in Australia, everything that MSL does should be supporting that overall objective.
So, usually, the medical affairs team and the MSL will identify medical projects that are aligned and supportive of that overall strategic objective. So given the vaccine example, some of these projects might be something like developing KOL advocates to promote vaccination in over 65, getting guidelines updated to recommend vaccination in over 65, maybe generating data and efficacy and safety.
And then once the MSL can understand what the company is trying to achieve, step 2 in adding value is identifying KOLs the company can collaborate with to achieve this strategic objective. Now I always use the word collaborate because it should and can be a mutually beneficial relationship between KOLs and the pharma company.
So in order for it to be mutually beneficial, the MSL must understand the values, motivators, and interests of the KOL and then leverage this information to develop projects that benefit both the KOL and the pharma company. And step 3 in MSL demonstrating their value is to leverage KOL relationship to achieve strategic objectives. So for the MSL, they need to plan out what the aim of each KOL relationship is with the overall strategic objective in mind. Now this is important for two reasons.
Number 1, it gives the MSL some direction, I e, it's not a case of the MSL meeting with professor x just because professor x was influential. It's a case of the MSL recognizing that professor x is influential and can help the pharma company achieve the strategic objective of increasing vaccine coverage because professor x publishes recommendations on vaccinations.
So once the objective of the overall KOL relationship is determined, the MSL can then plan out each KOL meeting and what questions they need to ask, what data they need to present in order to achieve the desired outcome. Wow. Alright. Well, that I mean, that's awesome advice. That's, that's a great start. But I wanna go back a second because you mentioned yeah. You mentioned, identifying, you know, KY identification.
Yes. So so just to be clear and to and to help folks out there, what would be your recommendations? What's what's the most important things for these folks to remember as it relates to k well identification and stakeholder mapping? Because I know that that's a big topic, and I know that there's people that are always looking for some advice as it relates to these sorts of things. Yeah. So a 100%, you're right. Stakeholder mapping is one of the most important activities from, the MSL.
So one of the most important things for an MSL when doing stakeholder mapping is to keep your strategic objective in mind. So everyone who goes on your list, you need to ask yourself as an MSL, how is this KOL going to help us achieve our overall strategic objective? Now with that being said, stakeholder maps do change sometimes every 6 months, every year depending on the strategic objectives of the company.
So another thing to remember is that stakeholder mapping, it's a combination of mapping people according to their level of influence and also their level of advocacy. So influence is determined by things like, publication record, particularly focusing on KOLs who are first and last authors on recent publications in the therapeutic area that the MSO works in.
Identifying KOLs who are invited to speak at both national and international conferences, identifying KOLs who write clinical guidelines, and identifying KOLs who are quoted in the media as an expert. So that's kind of influence. And then the other part of KOL or stakeholder mapping is advocacy. And advocacy refers to two things, really. It's the KOL being an advocate of the product.
So for example, you might have an oncology KOL who really likes to use drug x because they find it very effective in their patients. They have a lot of clinical experience with drug x, and they're very happy to tell their peers, why they should use drug x, for example. And the other side of advocacy is KOLs who are advocates of strategies that are aligned to the pharmaceutical company.
So for example, you might get a KOL who isn't a prescriber and doesn't know a massive amount about the product you work on or, say, the vaccine as we talked about in the earlier example, but they truly believe that, for example, those over the age of 65 are vulnerable and should be vaccinated. So that KOL would also score quite high in the advocacy section of the stakeholder mapping.
And then as an MSL, you want to focus most of your efforts on those KOLs who are both highly influential and also score high in terms of advocacy. Got you. Okay. So that makes total sense. Now I'm kinda left with the access the access question. Right? So so this all sounds great, but then how do you get FaceTime with these guys? Like, what are your tips on getting KOL meetings with these folks?
Yeah. And look, it's a really good question, and it's something that, some of my more junior colleagues would have often asked me, and it's something that I struggled with when I first became an MSL. There's a couple of things that I've learned over the years. One of the first things, which is very simple but very important, is use the proper title when reaching out to a KOL.
I did have a KOL that I addressed as an associate professor, and they were very quick to let me know that they have been upgraded to professor. So getting those things right are really important. It can be quite easy to piss off a KOL, and you really don't wanna do that when you're trying to establish a relationship. So that's the first thing. Yeah. And the next thing is to personalize each email.
You don't wanna just copy and paste some generic message, and then send it off to a bunch of KOLs because people know when that's been done, and they don't appreciate it. So I would always recommend and I usually when I'm reaching out to KOLs, I would do my research and find something that they had either published recently or find something if they were quoted in the media.
I also find Twitter is really useful for understanding more about KOLs because KOLs often tweet about, about new publications, new data. They kind of tweet their opinions on different health care systems, so it's a really useful tool as well. So I would always personalize each email by saying something like, you know, dear professor x, I read your recent article on x y zed.
I found it really interesting because another thing to include in the email is to talk about how the meeting with you at the MSL can benefit the KOL. So, for example, if you do your research and you know that the KOL is really interested in certain side effects related to certain oncology drugs, You can utilize that information to demonstrate how the KOL, can benefit from meeting with you.
So you might say something like, dear professor x, given your interest in side effects related to oncology drugs, I would like to discuss some new data on drug x, and the side effect profile. So you're just demonstrating that you know a little bit of what interests them. Another thing that can be quite effective is to use a referral.
So often, if I'm in a meeting with a KOL, at the end of the meeting, I would ask the KOL, do you have any colleagues or know anyone else who might be interested in this type of data? And the KOL might say, oh, yes. Actually, you know, doctor Brown from the University of Sydney will be quite interested in that. And that means that I can then reach out to doctor Brown and say, oh, I met with professor, why? And she mentioned that you would be interested in this type of data.
That tends to really increase your ability to uptake meetings as well. I guess some other kind of general tips as well in terms of reaching out to KOLs. I would usually avoid using the term medical science liaison. And instead, say you work in the medical affairs team, but provide your background. So for example, I'm a scientist from the medical affairs team. I'm a pharmacist from the medical affairs team. Just something that will help differentiate you a little bit from a sales rep.
And always include your credentials in the email signature. I think that's most of my tips on how to get, a KOL meeting. Interesting. That's great advice. I definitely I learn I mean, I you know, the obviously, I think it does make sense to go the extra mile and and and make sure you personalize each message and, you know, try to find some common ground or use something that's gonna get their attention.
But I like, you know, I I like that last piece about, not mentioning the word medical science liaison. That's interesting. So, Yeah. I find as well because I mean, medical science liaison, it it can sound quite similar to a medical product specialist, which is what sales reps are called. And at the end of the day, it's just kind of like pharma jargon to KOLs who don't fully understand the term.
You know, I think it's always important as well, especially when you're first reaching out to KOLs, to be flexible when you're asking about seasonal time to meet. So you don't wanna say to a KOL, well, how about Wednesday 14th at 2 PM? You wanna say something like, are you free for a short 10 minute conversation anytime in the next 2 weeks? So, you know, you can give them the chance to kind of identify what's free in their calendar. Got you. Awesome. Okay. Alright.
So now we know how to identify KOLs, and we know how to get access. So let's go back to the value discussion. So how can an MSL deliver value in this new KOL meeting that they just set up? Yeah. So the most important thing is for the MSL, to do their research on the KOL. I always recommend, that you shouldn't ask a question that could be answered by Google. Instead, you should use your research to frame a question or to ask a more insightful question.
So for example, if you've done your research and an Australian KOL recently tweeted about a new publication regarding vaccination protocol in the UK and how Australia needs to follow suit. You could ask the question, oh, I saw your tweet regarding, vaccination in the UK. What would need to happen for that to be replicated in Australia? So you want to use your research to frame a question because that just starts the discussion a bit more.
And, also, by referencing your research, you're demonstrating to the KOL that you respect them and you respect their time, and that's why you've done the research. And you're not there to waste their time, but you're there to add value. I think another important thing in terms of adding value to KOL is to understand the needs and motivators of your KOL and then identify mutually beneficial ways you can work together.
So for example, going back to the vaccination example, if you have a KOL who's really passionate about over 65 being vaccinated, you can leverage that insight to develop initiatives to benefit both the KOL and the company. So this might be working together to influence reimbursement or increasing awareness of the need to vaccinate, or maybe the KOL will help you, do some kind of education initiative in the vaccine space for other health care professionals.
So it just comes back to understanding more about your KOL and what's important to them. And once you understand what's important to your KOL, you can then identify projects that you can collaborate on, which will not only benefit the pharma company, but will also benefit the KOL. Got you. So it sounds like there's an awful lot of planning that goes into the you know? To to to deliver value for a KOL meeting, it sounds like you have to put to put forth a lot of planning ahead of time.
Because everything you just said really means doing research, and doing a preplan. Am I is that accurate? Yeah. 100%. Planning is so important. I mean, I guess, as I mentioned before, KOLs are busy people. You don't want to waste their time, and you also you don't want to damage or not be able to build a relationship because you haven't put in the necessary research and the necessary planning. So it is very important to do a lot of research and then utilize your research in the meeting.
I always recommend for people to set the objective of the meeting, so what's the aim of the meeting with the KOL is? And then work backwards and ask themselves, okay. How can I get there? What data do I need to present? What questions do I need to ask?
So for example, if your objective is to develop a relationship with a KOL because you want them to be part of an advisory board that your company is holding, in order to develop the relationship, you'll need to show the KOL that you've done your research. You'll need to ask insightful questions to uncover more about their interest and motivators, and then you'll need to leverage those insights to demonstrate how being a member of the advisory board will benefit them.
I think it's also important to note that when you're planning questions to ask a KOL, it's a good idea to start with open questions to stimulate discussion. So examples of an open question is something like, how do you usually manage this side effect? What are your thoughts on how this disease is currently managed? And this will just get the KOL talking, and then you can narrow it down into closed questions later on in the conversation when asking them with this example about the advisory board.
So if a KOL mentions during a discussion that they have, frustration because there isn't a lot of education issues in their geographical area, in a certain state they're based in, You could then leverage this insight when inviting them to the advisory board and say something like, you mentioned there's a lack of education in Western Australia. We're holding an advisory board meeting in 3 months, and one of the topics will be increasing education. We'd love to have your input.
Would you be interested in attending? So it just demonstrates to the KOL that you listen to their needs, and then you're trying to partner with them, to benefit them as well as the company. Awesome. This is great advice. And so now, you know, so I'm listening to this advice, and I I keep thinking I I need to ask about, how the COVID crisis will affect the MSL's ability to do this.
So is it because we're in a different world, what does an MSL need to do to continue to provide value in in this crisis situation? Are there other things they need to do? Look. I I think it's a great question. I think, obviously, MSLs need to be aware of the pressure and the stress that KOLs, particularly frontline clinicians, are under in this very stressful time. I think, for example, an MSL trying to get a meeting just to reach their KPIs with a KOL is not a good idea.
It's actually never a good idea, but particularly given the stressful time at the moment. However, I do think there is an opportunity with COVID for MSL to add more value just because KOLs are going to be so busy, with treating patients. So even if an MSL is able to do something as simple as recognizing the stress of a KOL and saying, look. I know you're so busy at the moment. Would it be useful for you if I collated new data on this drug and gave you a 10 minute presentation once a month?
Are there any particular areas you're interested in? I'm happy to collect the data for you and save you a bit of time and present it back to you. So that's the MSL recognizing that the KOL is very time poor and under pressure and doing something within their ability and their resources to help the KOL out. I think, obviously, given the climate, face to face meetings, they're a bit of a no go at the moment. However, I think everyone is pretty used to Zoom at the moment, so that's good anyway.
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It's I mean and that's why I asked the question because it's a different time, and it's gonna you know, it's probably gonna be like this for a little while. So I think it's important, and it just kinda brings me back to you know, and I always like to ask the question about, you know, what skills do you think are mandatory and really need to be honed during this time, especially as it relates to KOL engagement, interaction, and and, you know, and providing value?
Yeah. So I think, now more than ever, empathy is really required when MFLs interact with KOLs and patients as well because KOLs are obviously under a huge amount of, stress and strain at the moment. From a more practical point of view, I think MSLs do have an opportunity to stay abreast of, new literature related to COVID. For example, in certain cohorts of patients, I've seen some new guidelines being produced as well regarding what happens when certain patients get COVID.
I think there will be new publications released shortly on the interaction between, common medicines and medicines currently used to treat COVID. So I think if MSLs are able to stay on top of that information and feed it to their KOLs, it's another opportunity for them to add value to their KOLs in what is a very stressful time. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's great advice. And, I mean, obviously, you you you talk to a lot of people.
You have a really good understanding of industry, and you're in, you know, knee deep in the pharma world. What what what's your, you know, what's your expectation? How do you think pharma is gonna change practice in, you know, as a result of COVID 19 as we look forward to the future? I think MSL metrics will probably change, which, again, I think they have been changing over the past few years, which is a positive thing away from, quantitative metrics and more towards qualitative metrics.
So all about that adding value as opposed to just seeing a KOL to tick a box. I think face to face meetings for a while won't be happening. You know, conferences are the conferences in real life as opposed to virtual conferences, won't be happening. So that's very different as well. I think on the plus side with COVID, I definitely know in Australia because Australia, geographically is massive. But there's a lot of KOLs based around, Sydney and Melbourne.
And I think with some of the new practices in terms of MSLs interacting via Zoom, I think it's an opportunity for KOLs who are based in more rural areas to be more involved in conversation. So I think that is one positive to come from COVID. Yeah. Yeah. This is great advice too. Thank you again. Just last question.
I mean, there's so much here and and I feel like, you know, what what would be, like, your last final word of advice to MSLs that are out there that really are looking to make an impact in their territory and, you know, create value for their company, but also, you know, really develop strong relationships with their KOLs?
Yeah. So I think in terms of MSL demonstrating value to their company, I think it's important for MSLs to get a seat at the table to present their insights and to talk about how their insights are strategically aligned and demonstrate the strategic pull through of what they're saying.
So, for example, I think it's a great idea for MSLs to be proactive in presenting at brand team meetings, presenting not just to the medical team, but presenting to the marketing team as well and the wider functions within pharma to demonstrate the value that they're adding and link everything back to the overall strategic objective of the brand.
So for example, if an MSL was presenting, they might say something like, you know, I'm meeting professor x because he's influential as demonstrated by the fact that he publishes twice a year in The Lancet, and he writes guidelines for this drug. The overall objective of the relationship is to collaborate with him and leverage his influence to promote the need for increased reimbursement for this drug.
And the specific objective of the meeting I have for them next week is to take him through new data published and hear his feedback on it and how it can be used to educate GPs. This feedback will then be presented to the brand team next week to assist in developing new educational materials for GP.
So I think something like that, and I think it's important that MSL put a little bit of time into framing their insights in such a way that demonstrates how it's actually strategic and how they're actually doing something with them. I feel like the word insight is thrown around a lot in the MSL world, but I always coach my, clients to talk about actionable insights. So it's not just that you've learned something from a KOL.
It's that you've learned something from a KOL, and there will be some kind of strategic pull through from that insight that you've learned. Wow. That's great. Awesome advice. Aoife, thank you so much. You you were a great guest today. There was so much really valuable information. I'm gonna have to go back and listen to this again. But, Not at all. I really do My pleasure. I really do appreciate it. So but, hey. Thanks for coming on, and, all the best to you. And, you stay safe and stay well.
Yeah. Will do. Thanks so much for having me, Tom. I really enjoyed it. Great. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.