Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Matteo Ottolini. He is a medical science liaison with Bayer Pharmaceuticals, and we talk about how he was able to land his first MSL position as an international candidate. So Matteo was awesome. I think you guys are really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn. Check us out on YouTube, and visit us on MSL talk live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Matteo. Thank you for joining me. Welcome to the podcast, buddy. How are you doing? Hey. I'm doing well, Tom. What about you? I'm awesome, man. I am excited to talk to you. And I think a lot of people are gonna be interested in this topic. This is one of those topics that people have asked me about, for a while.
Over the course of the past, like, 3 years, people ask me, like, what would it take to land a position as an MSL, as an international candidate? And you did that. And you came to me and said, hey. I wanna talk about my story. So I think that this is perfect timing. But before we get into that, why don't you do an introduction? Let everybody know who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff.
Yeah. Absolutely, Tom. So first of all, I'm gonna get the legal disclaimer out of the way saying that the views and opinion that I will express here today are my own and do not represent in any way, shape, or form the one of my current employer. Now that said, my name is Matteo Torlini, and, I am originally from Italy, as you can tell from my accent. And as a background goes, I'm a PharmD and a PhD by training.
I graduated from pharmacy school, back in 2014 at the University of Parma in Italy, and then I graduated with my PhD in pharmacology, in 2021 from the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. And I am currently located still in Charlottesville, Virginia, and I now work as a medical science liaison for a global pharmaceutical company, supporting their GU oncology portfolio.
And I wanna just take a quick second, Tom, to say that I am absolutely honored and and thrilled to be on, on this podcast today. You had such amazing guests on this on this platform who have helped me incredibly in my, journey to medical affairs. I think I remember I started listening to your bosses about 3 years ago when you I think you just started back then. And I the time, I had very little idea what a medical affair was.
And for me, like, I was pitching to be like this, like, super steep mountain, like, with the almost in this invisible summit. And then your your podcast or your guest, like, help me to take the first few step and eventually climb in that mountain. So, again, I hope today, by sharing my experience with you and your audience, to pay their forward to the community, really. Listen. You know what? It is a steep climb. It is a big mountain, but it's not impossible. You did it, and, and you deserve it.
And, hopefully, the information that we shared today is gonna help somebody else to do the same thing. So I appreciate you taking time to tell your story and coming on here, and I appreciate your feedback. I I'm glad that the podcast was helpful for you. That's this what this is for. And, yeah, I'm looking forward to to hearing your story. So let's start with this is most obvious, and I think that a lot of people, though, may not realize.
But in order for an international candidate to even consider coming to the US for a position, you have to go about getting authorization to do so. So how did you go about getting authorized to come here? Yeah. No. That's that's a great question. Well, there is a lot to unpack in the in that question, Tom. I, moved, to the United States about 8 years ago. And, actually, at at the time, I I didn't move here to become an MSL. I to be honest, I didn't even know what an MSL was.
But I basically moved to the US because I was, I got this opportunity to work on a research project in collaboration with the professor at, UVA, basically soon after I have graduated from my, with my pharmacy degree. And so, and the fun fact that I like to share with people is that I was supposed to be here for only 8 months. And then, the I I was enjoying the time doing research, and we received more funding to complete the project, so I decided to stay on.
And you know, Tom, I always been a pretty driven and goal oriented person, and I saw, opening up in front of me a unique opportunity for my my career, and my future. That was trying to get a graduate degree or what however you wanna call it, a PhD from a university in the United States, a prestigious university like University of Virginia. So what I did, I applied to the program.
I was fortunate to be accepted, And then I during my PhD, I was able to collaborate and work with several, very knowledgeable scientists and and physicians. And I was very fortunate also to be to have a very prolific career. In in my PhD, I published several, manuscript, research articles, and review articles. However, I also realized during that time that, a career in academia was not aligned with my goals and my personality. So that is why then, today, I am a medical science liaison.
Now I wanna take a moment and circling back to the question whether I moved here, at first to become a medical science liaison. I think I would like to share, to whomever is in the audience and is listening and is thinking on having a similar path or, again, coming here and try to break into the MSR role. I think it would be a good idea to try to find a stepping stone, role or position here at first. Maybe some doing some research, clinical research, any of the sort.
This is because in the United States, I mean, it's it's going to be there are going to be, different things, you know, the culture is different. You will have to learn a different language, and and learning different dynamics, like, the health care is completely different. Also the pharmaceutical industry is is different.
So at the time in this time, that will help you again to settle down and to, understand all, those things that they they they are different, and that that will set you up, I think, for success for whatever you wanna do in this in this country. So I think that's what I would I would like to share on the in that point. Yeah. And it sounds like it was I I know from prior experience that it could be really tough to get like a did you get a green card?
Is that what you got, and and how tough was that? Yeah. So, truth to be told, Tom, the, journey to green card is definitely not an easy one. It is a long, long journey, but it is possible. So there are there are several types of of green card application that anyone can apply to. There are several type of visa that you can go on to be to be able to come here. Now this goes way beyond the scope of this podcast, but, I am gonna focus today briefly on what was my journey, what I did.
So, my the green card application that I applied to, it is it was a self petition application, and it is called the EB2 green card that for advanced degree holders and people with exceptional ability, who seek and obtain a national interest waiver. Now for short, EB 2 NIW. Now, Tom, getting a getting a green card sponsored by a US employer, for it it is difficult, especially if you have never worked for them before.
And the reason the main reason why, Tom, it is because, first of all, they have to give you a job offer, and then they have to test the job market for this offer. So they have to do what is called labor certification.
They have to open up this job to all the other American citizen and green card holder out there that they want to apply to the same position, and then they will have to showcase as immigration that they want you as an international candidate with very specific skills to fill that position. So as you can imagine, Tom, this is a this this can take a long time, and and it was also expensive. So it it is difficult that this is gonna happen, especially if you have never worked for them before.
Now the NIW, it is a great option because you don't need a job offer.
In fact, the job offer that labor certification are going to be waived because in the application that you do, you showcase, immigration in United States that in it is in the interest of the United States to waive that job offer because you are very well positioned and you are highly qualified to bring, advancement, significant advancement, and contribution to the field of what if whenever you are expert in the field that you are expert in.
That could be health care, can be science, technology, etcetera. So, again, to be able to file this application, you need to meet specific requirements, of of course. That is why I advise anyone that would like to do this to seek out, legal advice and and build a strong application that can be, then can be filed. Does that answer your question, Tom? Yeah. And, well, I just think that there's a lot of people that are, right now, probably really intimidated. Like, well, how do I do this?
Is it impossible? What are the different and, again, we don't have to get into the exact details, but there are different types of authorizations and sponsorships that you can consider. But let me ask you. Did you have a an immigration attorney that you worked with? Yes. Yes. I had an immigration attorney. In fact, Tom, at the time, I didn't even know that this NIW, what this was. I learned, when I spoke with an attorney that, I learned about this possibility.
There is another type of that can be filed as a self petition, but, I was not able to qualify for that one. But, the attorney, thought that I was able to qualify for this type of green card, so that is why we we filed this application together. Yeah. Great. So then what was your plan? So the so was your plan to get authorization and then find a permanent job in the US? And at that point, did you know it was gonna be an MSL job, or how did that go?
Yeah. So, actually, my plan, Tom, started when I was still in my PhD. And I again, I realized that an act an academic track was something that I just didn't didn't want to be doing. And I think I would like to share with all the PhDs out there, and especially the again, the international, PhDs, to to try to start thinking about your career goal, way in advance before that graduation date comes about. And I think the reason is threefold.
The first one, I think it takes time to explore the different option that you might have outside of the the normal academic track. And, also, once you have that figured out, then it takes time to figure out what you maybe you you would like to be doing. And finally, I think it also is gonna take time to actually pursue that goal. So the sooner you start, the better. And, again, especially for international candidate, that that is the journey to immigration is a long road ahead.
So, you know, having the idea is clear if in the beginning, it's it's better. Now what I did simple and back to my plan, I basically I had a few ideas of what my options were, but I knew that I needed to get a green card. So I, I seeked out legal advice. Again, I connected with my attorney, and, I put all my cards down And, we realized that I could have applied for this NIW petition, and so that's what we did. But at the time, I still did not have idea that I wanted to be an MSL.
At the very beginning when I started this, process, I didn't know what an MSL was, Tom. It's crazy how, yeah, how things worked out and led you to this place. There's a lot of people that are listening that are in other countries that wanna be an MSL. That that's their goal. And and I hope that they can learn a little bit from this. But so before we get into some of the MSL stuff, tell me about like, I'm sure there were roadblocks. I'm sure it wasn't easy.
And you said that it was, you know, it was a long process. So talk to us about the roadblocks. Yeah. No. Absolutely, Tom. You know, the, the journey to immigration can be really difficult, and especially mentally, it's it's a marathon. I I could bring on a lot of things that were roadblocks, but I think the main two things that I would like to share here today that I was struggling with, it was being patient and also the the uncertainty and the unknown.
And what I mean by that, it is because when I was working on my application and putting this application together, working with my attorney, now that is a lot of work. It is a lot of work on your part. It is a lot of work on your lawyer part, and it is also very expensive. Now but at the time, when I was working on something, I felt that I was making a difference. I was able to, you know, achieve that goal.
But once your application is all together and you file it and you send it into immigration on USCIS, then it's where the gating the waiting game begins. And, Tom, you don't get many updates from from immigration. It can go by months months without knowing anything. And so you are there not even knowing if your application will if they if they will need they will request for more evidence or maybe your application is gonna get denied.
You don't know all those things, so you are in a limbo for a long time. And as you can imagine, this is mentally can be really tough. And I'm going to be honest with you, Tom. I spent several sleepless nights, and it can get depressing at times.
But I would I would like to share with the audience that at least helped me to get through this time was actually trying to proactively becoming, more knowledgeable on, around the, immigration landscape large and trying to staying up to date with, all the latest on immigration. That kind of put me in a mindset where I felt that I was still making a difference and and working proactively, on my application. At that end, the end was great for two reasons.
The first one, I I I became more knowledgeable, something that I knew very little about. And the second one was because as soon as I was getting those updates from USCIS, at least I was able to connect with my, attorney immediately and, again, to try to move this application forward as ma as fast as possible. So that's what helped me. But, again, I I speak, many times with international candidates, and everybody is in this in this struggle. It it is difficult, but it is possible.
Yeah. Obviously, because we're we're having this conversation, and you're a success. Several other people have done it, so not only me. Thank god. Yeah. And so now I know you and I talked that, you know, networking was really helpful for you. So let's talk about your networking strategy and what activities from a networking standpoint were beneficial for you. No. Absolutely, Tom. And I was I was looking forward to this question because that topic is really, really close to my heart.
So now, again, while I was in my PhD, I realized that I I would have liked to do something that I would have helped health care providers or physicians to, improve patient's care. But at the time, I had no idea what I could have done. So what did I just do? I basically reached out to a couple of physicians that I was collaborating with, and I basically asked for for their opinion on their help.
And I think this showcase of the importance again of building those strong collaboration, strong relationship, and really not be afraid of asking for help and sharing your dreams and goal to the right people because that is gonna take you very far. Indeed, it was along the line of the, having a conversation with one of those positions that the MSR role came about. And, again, I had no idea what an MSR role was at the time, but this doctor said, hey, Matteo. You have your background is great.
You you're scientifically sound, and your personality, I think, is gonna fit in this role. Why don't I connect you with an MSL that I'm collaborating with? And I was like, oh, that sounds great. You know, I was gonna talk to somebody. So I was like, yes. Sign me in. Sign me up. So that's what I did. I connected with this MSL, and I had my very, very first informational interview.
And at that time, when I had that interview, I knew that the MSL role was something that I really wanted to be pursuing. Now how how did I go about it? Well, I I used mainly 4 tools. The first one is LinkedIn. Everybody who knows me well know that I am a strong believer in the strategic use of LinkedIn. The second one was your podcast, as I mentioned this already before. The third one was another platform that is called, webinar platform called Ask and Tell the MSL.
There are several, great, interviews on that platform. And then the 4th one was the journal of the, MSL Society. Now, I would like to share that once you start trying to build your network and sending those outrages, keep them short. But even more importantly, have a why. Have a why you are trying to connect with that very person. And, again, those platform that I just shared helped me at at especially in the very beginning to have a why.
And as simple as it was to write a line in those messages, say, hey. I really like that article that you wrote. Because of that, can we chat? Hey. I really like that episode. Can we chat? Believe me, that is gonna get you very far because if you're showing generally the interest in the other person and getting to know them, they will they will respond to you. And then you can have actually two way conversations once you pick up the phone and call them.
Because in the very beginning, Tom, to be honest, I was wondering why all these people would have even respond to me. I they don't even know who I am. Why they should even be wasting their time with me? But believe me, again, if you put if you do your own homework and you personalize the message, people will respond, and you will have amazing conversations.
And, also, what I would like to say here on top is that this is going to be a great exercise to actually understand if if the MSR role might be for you. Because, hey, in an MSR, you're gonna have to connect with physicians that you've never seen or spoke before, and you better do your homework and try to do all that pre call planning to be able to have that first meaningful conversation with them and then to build a long lasting relationship. So that's point number 1.
And the other thing I like to share is that once you start, building your network, just, like, start large. Cast a large net. Connect with as many of a cell and medical arrestor as you can because that will allow you to learn all the ins and outs of medical affairs, and there is a lot to learn. And then eventually, you can narrow it down your attention and connect with MSLs.
They might work in, therapeutic areas that you have you have more interest in, or maybe your background background is more aligned to those areas. And all this is gonna be fundamental for you to break into the MSR role. Now building a network, it it takes time. Building strong relationship takes time. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. I feel it was most like building a a little business.
Very challenging and a very steep curve at first, but then you you get in that groove and you understand and you are better, and then it becomes most rewarding. I mean, I I really enjoyed it at at the very end, and I keep on networking every day because I love. But that's what I would like to share. And as and you can see, Tom, I'm very passionate about this, this topic, and I I could talk forever.
But for the sake of time, I would like to suggest the audience to go back and listen to some of the episodes that were already done on this podcast. And people with even more knowledge than me have already shared their experience and opinions. And that those episodes helped me tremendously. So please, if you if you're interested, just go and listen them. Go on.
Well and I can add to that by saying that the most downloaded MSL talk podcast in history is episode number 1, and it's about the importance of networking for MSLs. So you might wanna go back and listen to that one to get started. But I I could tell you that everything that Matteo just explained is spot on. I think that networking is is one of the foundations of what your success might be. As you continue through your job search, it's paramount.
You should definitely get out of your comfort zone and do all the things that he just said. He really spelled out exactly what it takes. Use LinkedIn. Get out there. Be brief. Reference something. I hey. I saw your article or use someone. You know, do a name drop and use someone's name. Hey. I know that we're connected through this person or so and so told me to reach out to you.
Makes a big difference, but you wanna keep the other purse you wanna be respectful for the other person and the other person's time. Don't be too lengthy, and don't come at the person as if they're up they should be obligated to talk to you. It's very off putting. Alright. So let's move on because the next thing that I always hear from people is the challenge of overcoming experience and being customer facing and having a customer facing role prior to or even having any MSL experience.
So how did you overcome that? Right. Right. And then that I think that goes back to the importance of having all those informational interview and doing all that networking. And one of the common themes that, came about when I was talking to all these MSLs and other other people was that I I had all the all all what it took to be an MSL, but I didn't have these customer facing experience.
Now one of the one of the roles that I was actually already interested even before pursuing the MSL role, but this role actually came about again and again, was the, clinical trial coordinator. And so now what is a what is a clinical trial coordinator? What do they do? So in a nutshell, a clinical a clinical coordinator, is a a gatekeeper of a, clinical trial protocol.
They are expert on a clinical trial protocol, and they, support and help a group of physicians to screen and enroll patients to go on trials. And then they work with physicians and and support the the patients along their journey on the clinical trial. Now that was a very succinct description. The truth is you as clinical coordinator, where are many at? You have to collaborate with so many different entities, different people, a different level of authority, and completely diverse needs.
And you will get to work with and collaborate also with, several people in the CROs or clinical research organizations, and also you will engage with medical affairs. So that as you can you can imagine, Tom, that helped me tremendously to build up and develop all those transferable skills that they help me to, first of all, to break in the MSR role. But but to be honest, all the experience that I've gathered in that position, I use it today again in my role.
So I I could I could I could totally build the whole another episode on how I think this clinical coordinator role sets you up for success to become an MSL, but we don't have time for this today. But, again, I I think this is a great option for people that are maybe trying to find the stepping stone position than to break into their role. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. How did you ultimately break into the role? What was, you know, what was that like? Right.
Right. So, I I actually broke into the role because one of the, recruiter that was in my network, again, all that networking, she called me one day and she said, hey. There is this position. Do you do you think you're still interested? And, Tom, I mean, at the time, I I was ready to pick up that phone call and tell her that I was I knew what an MSL was. I mean, I was ready to go there and and and get it.
And and and then the the following day, I received an email that the manager wanted to talk to me. And then, again, I was able to to to become an MSL. And I think one thing that I really would like to share here because someone asked me this this question already, and I was actually asking myself this question while in my journey. And this is especially important for international candidate. It's because I was back then when I was in my journey into medical affairs, I was keep on thinking, hey.
Should I actually keep, like, doing all these networking, working so hard? And I need I don't even know if I'll be able to be here and stay here. I don't even know if my green card application will ever be approved. And I wish I had someone telling me back then, yes. You should. 1st of all, because and I I was fortunate that I kept doing it because at at the then I was, again, I was ready to pick up that phone call and say that I really wanted to be an MSL.
Because I if I didn't continue to, do all this network and learning more and more and more, I would probably never had that opportunity now. I would probably never have been able to break into the role. So, again and and and and, also, the other thing is, like, once you are in the journey to medical affairs, you're gonna learn a lot of things about you and a lot of things about the profession as well. So, again, I think that's the answer is yes.
You should keep on, on networking and and things, if they are meant to be, will will happen. So, you know, that that's interesting that you should say that. I think we do learn a lot about ourselves when we go through this. You know, the magnitude of this, the transition, the move, the challenge, We learn a lot about ourselves. So what did you learn about yourself?
Yeah, Tom. So, I I learned a lot of things, but I think what I would like to share here today is that the process to medical affairs definitely reemphasize the fact that I'm a very driven and goal oriented person. Now that on the one hand, it is a great strength to have, but I also realized that it was one of my biggest weakness because sometimes when I was not able to maybe achieve my goal, I felt that I was, like, going far away from it. I thought I started thinking, hey.
Am I work am I working hard enough? Am I working smart enough? Or maybe just the goal was wrong altogether. But what I've actually learned, Tom, is that most most often, it's not because you're not working hard enough. It's not because the goal is is wrong, but it's all about timing. So you keep keep on networking, keep on learning things, keep on developing and and implementing new strategies to it's all about troubleshooting. Don't keep on implementing new strategies to go about that goal.
And believe me, at some point, at the right time, the right opportunity will present itself. And, again, I think that, there is definitely a little bit of of lack in life. I'm not going to lie, but I think at mostly, Tom, and I'm I'm stealing this from you. This is one of was one of your quote quote, is that I think luck is where hard work meets opportunities. And not only to break in the MSR role, but in anything you do in life.
So, again, I I I think that's definitely you know, keep on keep on networking. Keep on learning things that will serve you that will serve you for life. Awesome. I love that. It's great advice. And, well, it's because I gave it to you. No. No. No. No. No. I I just stole it. I saw it. I I love it so much. I'm gonna steal it. No. This was amazing.
So what other advice you know, now that you're you're sharing your wisdom, what other advice do you have for other folks that are either looking to break into the role or other MSLs in general now that you've been doing it? Right. Right. Well, Tom, again, I I I I love I love being an MSL, and I I'm so grateful of this great opportunity. I that, again, so many people strive to strive to achieve.
Again, one of the things that draw me away from academia was the fact that I was working on projects that maybe 30 years down the road would have turned into something, actionable that would help people. But, you know, as an MSL, I get to wake up every day knowing that I'm engaged, working at the cutting edge of science, having discussion, and and, talking about research that will directly impact patient's care, improve patient's care. So I think this is priceless, at least for me.
So I'm again, I'm I'm very blessed, to be here. And now, as as challenges they go, I one of the one of the challenges that as a new MSL, I'm facing it. I kind of knew this already from all my informational interviews. Was the the fact that you have to get established in the territory. Right? You have to map your territory. You have to try to understand who are the main player in that territory.
And also another another how do is definitely, the access to doctors and institution, which is not only for a new MSL. It's for everybody. Right? So that's definitely a challenge that I'm facing. And and another one that I was less aware of is that, Tom, as, MSL, especially new MSL, you I mean, you need to work with several entities within the pharmaceutical company, and there are many. So you need to actually understand how to best partner with them, and to achieve your strategic goals.
So that's something that I'm working on it now. And it is definitely a steep learning curves, but I'm I'm, I'm learning a lot. And one thing I would like to share is that, again, never stop, ask for help because I'm very fortunate. I have a great team that I work with and great, collaboration. I I've been out a lot.
And, so, again, that's if if I have to share something, it is then not never ask for that and, like, try to collaborate as much as possible, especially in the beginning because you will have to learn a lot. And, yeah. So that's what I would like to share. Awesome. Well, you're awesome, my friend. I, I think that this is gonna help a lot of people. I learned a lot too. I didn't realize just how much goes into it. I assumed, but, you did a great job, and I appreciate you coming on.
I'm a big fan of yours. I think that you're an awesome dude, and I think that you have a very bright future ahead of you. So thanks for sharing your knowledge, and thank you all for listening. I hope you guys like this. If you did, if you know somebody that maybe is living internationally and is looking to transition or wants to get to the US, share this podcast with them because I think what Matteo has shared today was was really good stuff. So thanks again, Matteo. Yeah. No. Absolutely.
And and to everybody, just, if you feel free to reach out. I'm I'm active on LinkedIn, Twitter. So always happy to to help if I can. You're a good man. Way to go. Thank you, John. Take care, man. Take care, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.