Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. Today, my very special guest is one of my recruiters. Dan Hur joins me, and we talk about how to work with recruitment firms and why. Great conversation. Dan's one of the best MSL recruiters out there. Hope you guys enjoy it. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Good morning, Daniel. Thank you for joining me, my friend. How are we doing? Good morning. Good. Good. Thanks for having me on.
Yeah. Thanks for making the long commute. Yep. Yep. It's probably better that we're on separate screens because if I had to cram you in my office and we had to use one microphone, it might be a little tricky, especially with COVID. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I'm definitely alright right here in the office. Good, man. Good. Well, thanks for taking time out of your day. And, listen.
This is a really important topic that people keep asking me about, and, I just did a webinar, the like, 2 weeks ago, same topic with, with a group called DEMA, Diversity in Medical Affairs. And it was really interesting, and we got a lot of really good questions. Now anyone that listened to that webinar, that was my perspective.
So I wanted to do it again, because I wanna get your perspective on what it's like working with recruiters, and what some of the best practices are and what your advice is. Before I do that, why don't you just give a quick introduction, let everybody know, you know, a little bit about you and and what you're up to? Right. So born and raised New Jersey. Yeah. Went to school right here in Jersey, the College of New Jersey. Health and exercise, major. Started here in 2014 as a recruiter.
Currently, the team lead director of recruiting operations. So in the trenches, you know, actively recruiting every single day and, also partially helping out with with some of the other members of the team, identifying, sourcing candidates, and just trying to match up the the best candidates with with our open positions and our clients. And for those of you that don't know Dan or haven't worked with Dan, he's a very humble guy.
What he left out of that picture is that he's been with us for 7 years and just has absolutely crushed it, and is literally the top performing MSL recruiter out there. So, if you haven't connected with him on LinkedIn, definitely do so. He's a wealth of knowledge, and he's a super great guy. He knows his business. So, so let's get into it because we're gonna talk about connecting with recruiters and that stuff.
But, let's start with I think one of the things that surprised me is I think a lot of people don't really understand what the job of an MSO recruiter is and if there are different types and how that works. So can you explain that a little bit for folks? Of course. So I think there's really 2 main factions. There's contingency agencies, attainment agent agencies, and slight differences. Obviously, both work on recruiting the same folks.
We are mostly a contingency firm, so we'll receive, an open position or positions from one of our clients, and we essentially send candidates in. We do not receive any fees without placing a candidate as opposed to the repayment side where they officially are engaged by the company and will work that position until they fill it.
So really not much different, contractually a little bit different, but our efforts are, mostly to to help our candidates, match up with the right positions for for our clients. Yeah. And that's really typically the way the industry works. I think most MSL jobs are probably contingency type arrangements. And we we do get a lot of outsourced projects to us. That's kind of a different thing where we build teams for clients and stuff.
But I think most of the jobs you might see out there like, if you're an MSL and you get calls from agencies, most of what you're probably dealing with are contingency firms. So Yep. You know, so that's I think that's pretty standard stuff. So let's take it to the level that there's an MSL looking for a position. Why is it a good idea to engage a recruiter? That's I think this is a really good point. And most of the medical science liaison gig, as I know it, is about relationships and networking.
So I I think it's good to engage recruiters because each agency, or recruiter typically have a a really strong relationship with a client or clients. So for us, you know, we have a a number of long standing relationships, at different companies, and those relationships could be in talent acquisition, HR, could be with the hiring managers directly, whether they be regional, national. So it's important to to network first, and I think the relationships matter a lot.
So engaging with recruiters is really just an asset for you to to get a better feel for the company itself as far as the folks that work there, the culture, and to to use your recruiter's knowledge of that company and relationship to to leverage, a better spot for you, you know, in the interview process. Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's an asset. It's you know, you're it's like you have an agent that's helping you along the way. Right?
I know it's funny that you almost look at it as when if you're in you start your career and you wanna have a good accountant. You wanna have a good lawyer. You know, you wanna have, like, certain things that are gonna help you in your career or in your business if you're a business person. You know, good recruiters are essential to helping you with your career. So I just think that it's a good practice to have relationships with, you know, a a couple of of good search firms.
I think it can only help you. So let's talk about that. You know, how how can one how can someone go about finding a recruiter? Like, what's the best way to, you know, to go out and do research or or land on who they should contact? Yeah. And to your point, Tom, I think always best to connect with multiple recruiters or agencies. Each agency, you know, has different relationships. So, the more, the better.
For me, I a lot of the work that I do with the people I work with seems to be on a referral basis. So I think, best case, you contact an industry colleague, a friend, an acquaintance, see if they have worked with any specific recruiters, or agencies. And to go via word-of-mouth, Same thing. Utilize the relationships you have to continue to network, to build your network.
So for me, I think the best the best avenue is to contact one of your friends, or colleagues, ask them what individuals they've worked with. But besides that, you know, pretty simple just to hop on Google, do a, you know, MSL search recruiting firm or on LinkedIn. Those are really great tools as well. But I do think, you know, word-of-mouth people would would be your best bet. Totally agree. I totally agree.
So once once you identify the MSO recruiter or recruiters that you wanna work with, what's the best way to engage with them? Yeah. I I think name dropping is really important. It's something that I do. If I ever get referred to, you know, an MSO candidate by one of their colleagues, I name drop. Of course, I I make sure that they're okay with that.
But, you know, if you want to engage with a recruiter, I would say, like I said, LinkedIn, email, even a text, you know, if you have a cell phone number. Hey, Daniel. This is so and so. I received your information from from my good friend. If you want a name drop, if you're comfortable doing that, they let me know that you worked together x amount of time ago. Would really like to set up a conversation if you have time.
I would encourage to if it is an email or even a LinkedIn message, maybe to attach your most recent updated CV just to give that recruiter an idea of your background. This way, when you get on the phone, the recruiter can do a little bit of research, you know, figure out what they could potentially match you up with beforehand. You know, to give them the the big picture would also help out. Yeah. I I you know? And I think that first impression's really important. You know?
You wanna establish a relationship with this person, so you wanna come in. You know, we get in inundated with requests from people all over the place, and it's always nice to know that, you know, this person's coming from a referral from somebody that you know, somebody that you trust. And, certainly, we try to treat everybody the same, but you don't wanna, obviously, disappoint that person that made the referral.
So it makes it that much more important for us to try to, you know, make sure that, you know, we're getting back to, you know, to that person. So I think that's a great technique, and I I totally encourage it. So Yeah. You so then when you start a relationship with a recruiter, what as a job seeker, what should you expect from that recruiter from that point? And this is this is really big with our firm. You know, it's our intention to always put our candidates' best foot forward.
And in order to do that, you know, we need an open line of communication. And I think throughout the conversation today, you'll probably hear me say, a few repetitive words. I think transparency and honesty and communication are really, really big in this industry. So, I think it's really important to be transparent with your recruiter. Hey. You know, I'm actively interviewing. I have 2 phone screens set up, and I'm also scheduled to complete, you know, a final virtual interview or presentation.
So I think it's really important to just be honest with with your background. Certainly, let them know what you have going on and to be open about what you're looking for. You know, some folks are really attracted to the the start up biotech scene, would like to maybe not stay away, but would prefer the smaller company as opposed to large pharma.
So to let them know your, quote, unquote, wish lists, where your comfort level is with with territory size, you know, whether you wanna be focused in a smaller zone or or cool with covering the whole country maybe. So I think sharing all of these little details to to let your recruiter know the big picture is gonna be really important.
And to keep that line of communication open throughout the entire relationship, you know, from from the application all the way to the potential signing, share share your ideas, you know, what you're thinking. If you do move forward in the interview process, you know, how your calls went with the hiring manager or HR, how your presentation went. So open lines of communication, super important. Being honest with with with each other, I think, is also very important.
And I think if you can manage to do that, it's for me, it's more of a long term relationship than any one position that we may work on together. It's about potentially revisiting down the road if need be. I mean, I agree. I think that's one of the things that we, you know, we try as hard as we can to develop that trust with with with our candidates and develop that relationship. And it's built on you hit the nail on the head. It's built on honesty and transparency.
I think that's something that we, you know, we want on you know, you want on both sides. Obviously, the the job seeker wants that from us as well. And I think just to add to that, one of the things that, especially when you get to the point where there's an offer and you're negotiating the offer, you want that transparency. You want that honesty so that we can do the best job we can in negotiating that offer. But you also want that responsiveness. Right? I mean Right. What's the worst?
It's kinda that worst feeling is when you're trying to negotiate an offer on someone's behalf, and then all of a sudden they stop calling you back. Right? How often does it happen? More often than I care to admit. And we we have, we have a little saying over here. You know, we're we're best friends until the offer comes out. And it it's one of those things where, right, it's a huge decision for someone. And maybe they have multiple offers on the table, and so maybe you're weighing your options.
But that that responsiveness, to your point, Tom, super important. And for us, it's very important to to make sure that we have an open line of communication, but also to our clients. You know, I think when you're responsive, you're gracious, and you can go back and forth with the client on our side, it really just it makes the process that much smoother, and it's, I think, really important for the client to know that that the candidate is very engaged and excited. So I I agree with you there.
No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Plus, again, I mentioned this before. I wanna mention it again, but this is on the client side. Like, if you're negotiating an offer on behalf of that candidate and there's a real good chance that the candidate wants a job and is may eventually accept the job. And even if they don't, you wanna leave the right impression. If you're starting with a new company, you don't wanna start with the wrong impression that you handle the negotiation wrong. Right? I mean, agreed.
Yeah. Impressions are so important start to finish. Yeah. So, you know, and if you're and if you're not gonna take the position, well, that's fine too. But still, you you want to handle that negotiation by being honest, transparent, and responsive. And even if you're not sure, if you're, like, really not sure if you're gonna take the job, just call us back and say, hey. Listen. I need a little more time, and here's my situation or whatever.
And and I guess it's it, you know, it also becomes a matter of, what kind of relationship do you have with the recruiter? How much trust has been established? You know? And are you, you know, are you genuinely interested in that job? So I know that there's a lot of factors. Let's flip this around though because we're talking about responsiveness from the candidate. So what if, what if the recruiter disappears? And what if there's what if there's a candidate that That doesn't happen.
Yeah. Uh-huh. So I hear that a lot. Well, I got ghosted by my recruiter. Why does that happen? You know, I I certainly don't think there's there's any malice behind that. And I and this goes back to open line of communication. I think if there is a a ghosting, so to speak, it's likely that the recruiter is waiting on an update just like you. So my I I think the advice I would give is is to remain on top of your recruiter's mind.
You don't necessarily need to text them every single night, but, you know, periodically check-in with them. You know? Hey. Just looking for an update. Hope all is well. So I I think staying on top of your recruiter, is really important. And on our side, we do the same exact thing. You know, we'll check-in with the client, you know, just checking for updates, making sure we didn't miss anything.
So if your recruiter does leave you hanging, I think it's more, you know, they're waiting on the next step. Maybe something's going on on the client side that that no one is aware of. So we continually check-in with the folks that we work with, for any updates that we can get, you know, to make sure that the candidate is aware of everything going on. But I I don't think recruiters do that intentionally by any means. I think they're likely just you know, they probably feel the same way.
You know, I I really wish we can get this moved forward or expedited by any means. So I I would just continue to check-in and and do your best to to remain, you know, on top of their head and to make sure that you re reiterate, you know, how interested you are in in next steps, should that be the case. I think that's great advice. I I think that, it is it's definitely important for the job seeker to take control of the situation, and, you know, tactfully follow-up.
Like you said, just stay on top of it. Yep. Because I don't again, you're right. It's it's it's typically a no news is no news situation. It's not necessarily a no news is bad news. And and sometimes we don't get timely follow-up from clients, and it's not because we don't have a good relationship with the client. It's just because they're swamped in a million different directions. And, and sometimes it's not because of lack of interest. And sometimes it is.
Sometimes we don't hear back, and then finally we do. And it's like, oh, yeah. No. We went with another candidate. It's like, oh, man. And now we have to call up the candidate and give the bad news, and it's not great, but it's an unfortunate part of the process. So what happens Great. I know that there are a lot of different scenarios that develop through the course of the relationship with the candidate.
Sometimes we've seen situations where all of a sudden, the company starts dealing directly with the candidate. What's your advice in that situation if a candidate all of a sudden is moving forward in the process and then their recruiter, for whatever reason, just is seems like they've been left behind? Yeah. And this has happened to us, a handful of times, you know, throughout throughout my tenure here.
Some companies, for whatever reason, you know, kind of like like to take the reins and move forward, which I have no problem with. And should that happen, I think it's really important for, the candidate just to keep the recruiter apprised of what's going on. Make sure same thing. And every discussion you have, you know, from application all the way to a potential offer, You know, these are the folks that you're gonna be working with.
So I I think a lot of companies, they wanna make sure that they can build that rapport on their side. We are happy to to be that liaison in between. But a lot of these companies, you know, the hiring managers, they wanna make sure that they can build a good rapport, same with the HR department, with the candidate. So I appreciate when companies do that, they wanna make sure that they can get a hold of candidates. I think, also, it's a great way for them to see how responsive the candidate is.
So maybe a tactic on their side. You know, we we don't need to use the the, quote, unquote, middleman. Mhmm. We're gonna go directly to the candidate. And it it does happen, and and should it happen, just keep your recruiter in mind, you know, after you hang up the phone with them. Maybe give your recruiter a call. You know, like you said earlier, Tom, you know, I I think one of our strong suits as an agency is our knowledge of the market, of the company, of the industry trends.
So always contact your recruiter after these calls just to debrief a little bit, get their thoughts on on the conversation or potential next steps, whatever it may be, especially when it does come to offer time. Definitely definitely reengage with your recruiter, see what they think, see if they have any insights for you, and kinda devise a game plan together is is what I think, that would be best case.
Yeah. I think it's I think that there's you're stronger you know, there's power in numbers, and I think that you have a better shot if you keep your recruiter involved even though you're doing well directly with the client. We're not and, obviously, we want you to do the right thing, follow lead of of the company. Just I think it's important to keep us involved and keep us included because we're here to help and we can help. We're not obviously gonna hurt you in any way.
And I think that well, you think about the situations that have that have developed where someone's moving along in the process, moving along in the process. We're not kept in, you know, in in the loop with it or it develops faster than we had thought. And then all of a sudden, we get this phone call at the 11,000. It's like, hey. You know, I have this offer on the table, and, you know, I need your help. And it's like, wait. What? Like, you know, then it's harder for us to jump in.
So I think it's I think it's just good practice. Yeah. No. I'm on the same page with you there, and it has happened to us. And the more contact you have, to your point, we we will do nothing to hinder your opportunity or or chances at at landing the job. So, we wanna help, the company, obviously, if they move you forward to the offer, really want you to join the team. So everyone just, you know, wants what's best, you know, for the candidate at the end of the day. For sure.
So what can a job seeker do to develop a successful relationship with a recruiter? And that's this is a great question. And for me, it's I I think it's really important. And sometimes we'll we'll be working with someone, and I'll review their LinkedIn profile. And I'll have a general good idea of of the therapeutic areas they may have worked, how long they have spent at each company, their educational background.
And I think best case scenario, when you send or have a, you know, a conversation with a recruiter, you send them over your resume or your CV. And to have those two things match up, I think, is a really strong marketing tool for candidates. I mean, LinkedIn is such a huge asset for, for everyone, for the companies, for recruiters, for the candidates. So I think having a updated LinkedIn profile Mhmm. With as much detail on there as possible to to market yourself is really important.
To send an updated CV resume to your recruiter or recruiters, whenever you have an update thrown on there. And even if it's just a little bit of language or a few formatting, changes, send over those updated TVs, resumes to your recruiters. Make sure those are are synced up with your LinkedIn profile. And last, you know, not to be redundant, it is, you know, same thing, the open line of communication, and the honesty with your recruiter.
I think if you market yourself well, you know, on some of these platforms and you build up a good rapport with your recruiters, you're always gonna stay fresh in their mind. And it's the the back and forth at that point is easy, you know, especially after a handful of conversations or applications.
You know, you start to get a feel for each other, the working relationship, you know, the professional relationship, and it really turns into more of, you know, a team effort at that point, you know, the deeper you get, into the process. Yeah. And I'll tell you that that point about making sure that this the resume and the LinkedIn profile are synced up, like, it's so important because that's the first thing that recruiters do. It's we get a resume. What do we do? We go to LinkedIn.
We wanna see. What's the person look like? Does they have a professional photo? Is everything match up? Is it all in line? Is there something that I can learn from the LinkedIn profile that I didn't learn from the CV and vice versa? So, I mean, that's hue I think that's just best practice. Great. Yeah. And then as far as continuing the relationship down the road for the job seeker? Obviously, we try to keep in touch with folks and, from time we don't hound or, you know, hound people.
Usually, we reach out when we have opportunities. But for the job seeker, like, what would you say? How often should they try to maybe keep in touch, or does it make sense for them as common practice to send an updated CV every once in a while just to stay on the radar? Yeah. And this is another this is another good question. So being tactful, you know, and continually reaching out is really important to me.
And I tell the folks that I work with, you know, never hesitate to pick up the phone and give me a call or to send me an email, to shoot me a text, send me a LinkedIn message, you know, if you have any questions at all. At the end of the day, we are here to help any way we can even if it's not a position we're working on together. If you're working with a different recruiter or maybe it's a direct application, whatever, you know, referral it may be, you know, we're here to help.
So I would say to continually check-in with your recruiter or recruiters. Like I said, maybe maybe not send them a text every single night, but, you know, a monthly check-in, even maybe a weekly check-in, you know, especially if it's if it's a hot time of the year when there's a lot of hiring being being made.
It's important to you to stay fresh on their mind because, you know, I'm not sure about other agencies, but we we have a lot of volume, between our team, between the people that that we work with. So, it's important just to to do your thing with your recruiter as the position is available. But after, let's just say, you don't land the role, still continually check-in because we receive new positions on a weekly, daily basis.
So we'll get to you as soon as we get something for you, but it doesn't hurt to to send that quick text. You know, and if you have a really good relationship, you know, check-in on the holidays. If you know their birthday, send a, you know, a happy birthday text. Yeah. So it's important to be you know, we assess personality, as part of our job on the phone. You know, we we wanna make sure that we're matching personalities with our companies, with our clients.
So, you know, be yourself and and do everything you can to to make sure that you have a really, really strong rapport with your recruiters and have a good working relationship together. No. It's perfect. It's perfect. And that's a loaded question too because there's the passive job seeker. There's the active job seeker. Yeah. There's someone that maybe you just placed in a job, but you should still maintain a relationship.
You should still keep in touch from time to time, like you said during the holidays or birthdays or whatever. So, yeah, I think it's important to, to continue to have, you know, whether it's, you know, a semi regular check-in or whatever, just to kind of, you know, keep things going. So last question. So we as you know, we have we we have a lot of listeners on this podcast that are looking to break into the MSL role. They're, you know, aspiring MSLs. What advice would you have for those guys?
Obviously, we work, you know, we do a lot of work with, you know, more experienced MSLs and building out teams where it requires experience. But we do from time from time to time, we do get requests that would allow for somebody that doesn't have prior experience. But, you know, there's, you know, there's so many nuances to it. So what's your advice for these folks? You know, and this is like the chicken or the egg.
There are so many qualified candidates with the right interpersonal skills and communication skill set. And so for me, it it's a matter of of perseverance and persistence, remaining super positive.
And when you get your chance to get on the phone, whether it be with talent acquisition, HR, or with the hiring manager, you know, to really showcase your skill sets and to really that opportunity you have, the window you have, it's important to to what you said before, Tom, to to make the right impression, to put your best foot forward.
So I think making sure you're on top of your game is really important to do your homework, your due diligence, research on the company that you may be interviewing with, having a a really solid list of questions prepared for when you get on the phone, and also networking. Networking is a big one for me. This is something that I tell the folks that I work with all the time that, you need to connect with as many people as possible.
You need to start building rapport with industry colleagues, with recruiters, with HR departments. So the more the more involved you are, I think the better for you. And the conferences that that a lot of these different organizations hold is also a great networking event for you to meet people. Mass East and West, MAPS, MSL Society, to name a few. Mhmm. You know, get yourself to some of these conferences, you know, and start meeting these people live, you know, and and put on the fancy shoes.
Make sure you look the part. And like I said, do your homework. And I think positivity is a huge one for me. You know, people are attracted to positivity, to to that engaging positive energy. Not to misrepresent yourself by any means, but, you know, really to make sure that, you know, you know, your stuff and everyone know to tell, you know, how how much you want to be in the field to, you know, represent these organizations. Yeah. That's great advice, man. It's, that's that's it right there.
I mean, you you just hit on so many important things. So, I know people will appreciate it, and, and I appreciate you coming on, man. This was great. Great advice. Yeah. Yeah. So now get back to work. I yeah. I appreciate it too. I I hope this could, even help a few people. That that would be great. And thank you very much, obviously, Tom, for for having me on. And I was looking forward to it, and, I'm excited to see the the final product. Yeah, man. Good stuff. Alright, pal. Thanks. Alright.
Have a good one. Yep. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.