Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Mark McKern. We call him Mac, and he is an executive coach and retired US army colonel and talks about how to emerge as an everyday leader and top performer. Awesome conversation. I think you guys are really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, and, of course, check us out on YouTube, as well as MSL Talk Live, which is now on the LinkedIn Live platform. And that is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
So thanks for joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Mac. Thanks for joining me, buddy. Welcome to the podcast. Oh, it's great to be here, Tom. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. So I'm gonna start with the obvious. Alright? Guys, for those of you who who know this, my son graduated from the United States Naval Academy last year. And I'm inviting an army retired army colonel onto my podcast.
If you know the rivalry between army navy, this kinda goes against everything that we stand for. But I have to tell you, I admire this guy. He is a true leader. He has helped me. He's helped my business. And we joke about the rivalry with Army Navy, but, you know, we all fight on the same side. And, this is gonna be a real treat because this guy is something special. So, Mac, why don't you do a quick introduction?
Yeah. Sure, Tom. So like you, I I cut my teeth as an athlete, and that's what really opened doors for me early in my career and got me into West Point as a recruited football player. And after graduating from there, spent 30 years in army aviation rounds and around the world, participating in a lot of different operations, culminating in command of an aviation brigade in Afghanistan, you know, roughly 3,000 people, a 100 helicopters.
Left the military, retired at 30 years as a colonel, went into private sector, went into aerospace, kind of a natural place for a helicopter pilot to go. Really enjoyed that, but it it I wasn't really finding my niche there. So I went into the coaching industry, leader development industry, and I've worked I'm working as a executive coach and peer group leader for Vistage, a national CEO organization, as well as a growth strategy consultant for generational consulting. Awesome, man.
Well, thank you again for being here. I'm excited to share your knowledge and experience with our listeners here. So before I do that quick shout out, I just got back from ASCO, which is the American Society of Clinical Oncology Annual Conference. And I have to tell you, I met so many awesome people. So I just wanna give a shout out to all the people that came up and introduced themselves, fans of the podcast, and just people that I never met before. You guys are awesome.
Thank you for taking time, and thank you for your support of this show. Thank you for sharing it. I really appreciate you guys. I love seeing people. So if anybody's ever out at a conference, if you ever see me around, make sure you you grab me and say hello because it really it made I mean, I was there for a couple of days, and it made the whole experience for me. So, Mac, let's jump into it.
So you have, over your military career and over your professional career, observed a lot of leaders, true leaders. What would you say are the characteristics that these folks share, whether it's on the the in the private sector or whether it's in the military? Sure, Tom. The best leaders I've observed have been the best communicators. They are able to provide strategic vision for an organization or goals or objectives for it.
They're able to unify the the people, bring them together to accomplish those, and they're able to really get into the untapped potential of folks. So the best leaders I've seen are able to do that. Some of their characteristics, they're selfless, in their approach to how they lead their organization. They they always put the team above what's best for them, So they're committed to, you know, being a part of the team.
I really think a character trait that I really learned after the military is be a better list. The best leaders I've observed really are do a great job, listening to people doing less talking about themselves and what they've done and really, bring out the best in their people by asking powerful and impactful questions to get them to open up and get them to find the solutions and be critical thinkers. Those are some of the key traits that, over time, I've observed. Yeah. Leaders. Good stuff.
Yeah. I'm sure I'm sure there'll be plenty others that we're gonna uncover in this conversation. But let's let's talk a little bit about obviously, these last 2 years have been difficult with the pandemic. And I know that there are a lot of leaders that are probably trying to help course correct or motivate their team or get their team back up to a certain level.
So what types of things do you think are important for leaders to do to help instill confidence in people and motivate people and get them back into, you know, the right the right mindset and, and get them back on track? Yeah. No. That's a great question. And, you know, certainly a lot of leaders who are challenged and not just the pandemic. I mean, look what's happening across the country relative to, you know, inflation, supply chain, you know, hiring retention.
All those factors are impacting leaders. And really, the leaders that have been the most successful from what I've observed and those that I've worked with, they have, they've taken charge. And that sounds, you know, okay. I get it. Leaders are supposed to take charge. But, no, they they have taken charge. They have, been very transparent with their people about what's going on. They haven't waited for perfect information to make decisions.
They've they've made critical or impactful decisions maybe with a limited amount of information, but they made the decisions that needed to be made. And and by being transparent and and open with their people, they've given their people a confidence, that we're gonna get through this. We're gonna get through this together.
It was interesting to see the reactions when the pandemic occurred from folks about who had people that were no longer really useful for them or or they weren't there wasn't active work for them to do. The good leaders made concessions across the whole team. For example, executive teams taking pay cuts, reducing hours to keep people on board, and they kept their teams together and did everything they could to work through that crisis.
And they're so much better off in the back end versus the companies to, you know, level level the the appointment of the workforce and just start letting people go. So in these in these times and the times it continues, it's the leaders that are that are just being open and communicating with their people and letting them know what's going on. I think they're gonna be most effective.
And that's it's done in so many different ways, whether it's town halls, emails, walking and talking with people within the organization because some some teams are so large. It's hard to get around everybody. But they are present with them and let them know, what's going on and what they're doing about it.
Yeah. You know, it's I'm listening to you, and it's and it's so what you're saying is so important because a company's culture is a mere image of leadership and how lead how leaders act and how leaders respond in difficult situations. Do you agree with that? No. I I totally. You know, you know, culture is how the organization behaves. And if it's not behaving well, it's gonna have a poor culture.
And if you let people remain in that culture because they're high performers, they'll cost you longer more in the long run. They're gonna erode, the workforce. They're gonna the results are gonna be people are gonna underperform or or quit on the team because of a a cancerous employee or team within the organization. So, yeah, culture is everything. And it's always it's always easy to instill the proper attitude in in good times. And it's great.
It's easy to have a positive culture when things are positive. Sure. You see true character when things start to go south a little bit. And there's always volatility. Especially where we are in the pharmaceutical industry, there's always volatility. So it's really important, especially as leaders, to lead by example, obviously. You mentioned confidence. What's the best way to instill confidence in your team? Yeah. Well, I you know, it starts in in how the leader presents themselves.
So some call it executive presence. How does that leader show up? 1st and foremost, the leader is prepared for whatever it is, whether it's, meetings for that day, 1 to 1 feedback sessions, whatever it might be, they are showing up prepared. And it's not just the the mechanics of preparation. It's the, visualization of what's gonna take place, so a mental rehearsal, what's gonna happen. It's being in the right mindset.
It may be a tough it's gonna be a tough day because you're gonna maybe somebody has to be let go. Somebody has to get a less than positive sit down, whatever it might be, or you just gotta make tough decisions on on on work. So your your mindset, you get ready for the day. So a big part of it is preparation, I think, for confidence. People see a confident leader. They feel good. How does that leader present themselves? Is in the communication pie, really only 7% of it's the words.
55% of it's the body language and 38% is the tone. So how you present yourself, the way you talk, the cadence of your speech, how you communicate, that that has a huge impact on people being confident. You you may have the best words in the world, but if you're not conveying the message in a confident way or a way that's, a way that's believable, you're gonna probably lose those people, and they're not gonna be confident in what you're saying.
So those are those are those are a few big ways to instill confidence, you know, in how you show up. I mean and there's other I guess you can also roll in there how you how you're you're showing up for the audience, how you're dressed, how you're that presence you have physically, how they see you and perceive you. You roll into a board meeting with a T shirt and a pair of jeans on, you're probably not sending a very good message and confidence into the numbers of the board.
So, the flip side of that, if you're meeting with some construction workers, a pair of Levi's is a good thing to wear, and a pair of boots. So, you know, it depends on the situation about how you show up physically for those meetings or for those communications. Yeah. Those those are great tips, and, you gotta know your audience. And, you know, the other thing that resonates with me, a lesson I've learned recently is how you do one thing is how you do everything.
I had an opportunity to tour the FirstForm headquarters in Saint Louis. FirstForm is a nutrition supplement and apparel company founded by Andy Frisella. If you guys never heard of Andy, he's awesome. He's, he has a podcast called Real AF. And that's their main slogan. How you do one thing is how you do everything. So you just reminded me of that because leaders really you know, your team is like a sponge. They're going to listen to everything you say.
They're gonna follow your your, your body language, the tone of your voice, the way you communicate, not just the message, but your actions, your reactions. Every piece of the equation is gonna be picked up. Nothing's gonna get missed. So I I appreciate what you're saying. I think it's really important. But I wanna ask you and talk to you about consistency.
You and I have had this conversation before, and I want you to share the importance of consistency and being consistent as a leader, on a daily basis. Yeah. No. That's a that's a great question. If if your employees wanted to go for a roller coaster ride, they would they'd go to the amusement park. So they shouldn't they shouldn't show up and wonder what is gonna be the mood or the attitude or the approach of the boss today, whether you're gonna be a good mood, bad mood.
You'll hear people talk about it. Well, boy, he or she's showing up in this mood today. Boy, you better avoid it. People inherently love predictability, and they certainly enjoy that from a leader. And you may be a grump all the time, but at least you're consistently a grump. So they're looking for predictability. I once worked in a organization which the senior commander talked about. He used an acronym called tips. Talk to people. Keep them informed.
Give them predictability, and show them that you care. And I've always hung on to that acronym. The one the piece I like the most of all that is predictability. People will do whatever you ask of them as long as you give them enough notice and time to prepare or be ready or what to expect. So I think predictability is a key piece of of what you can do to be, be consistent. And I really think that's key.
I mean, I think I think for for as a leader, you have to show up, in a similar manner or or or well prepared and communicating over communicating in some cases the message or important aspects of the organization. Awesome. I love that. Yeah. I I you know, it's funny. We you and I have talked about the predictability piece in the past too, and and, and that's something that you can control as a leader. You can control that.
So you can't fail at that because there's so many unknowns in any walk of life business or whether in the pharmaceutical industry. If you're an MSL manager or director or VP, you try to you try to control the things that you can control. So predictability is certainly one of them.
Another another area that we talk a lot about on this podcast, that's very relevant to the the MSL role, but I think it's relevant to anyone in a workplace, especially in a competitive environment or an environment that's based on production, is emotional intelligence. Mhmm. So can you talk about how important it is for leaders to show emotional intelligence, and and how that plays a factor?
Yeah. Sure, Tom. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna ask to circle back go back to that predictability piece before I answer that. And that's that's that you brought up a great point. I don't want it to get lost is Mhmm. You control you control what you can control. And that doesn't mean predictability means you're you're, not able to change or adapt to situations. It means you're controlling the environment that can be controlled so that you're prepared for the unknown. That's an important piece of it.
I I once had a leader, when I evaluate him, I said, he always prepared for the unknown. And he said, what do you mean by that? I said, well, you you took care of what need to be taken care of, but so you could handle the chaos or or or change that was was going on within the organization. And that's important part The leader's anticipating, the things that could go wrong or or could go bad, and they're ready for it. So just wanted to circle back to that. I thought it was an important point.
But, emotional intelligence. So, you know, as part of the triad of of leadership, you know, your your intelligence, your IQ, your behaviors, you know, partly how you're hardwired and how you behave, and the emotional intelligence, which a lot of leaders look at it or a lot of experts on leadership look at it now and say the most important component, your emotional intelligence.
How you see yourself, how you regulate yourself, and how it, in fact, impacts other people, and then how you recognize, the emotional state of others, around you in a group setting. So it's it's seeing yourself and understand how you're impacting people and then seeing the emotional state of a group gathering of others.
And the leaders that understand that, they're the most successful in communicating, reading their people, and understanding, if what they are saying and doing, what the impact that is having, and then seeing that in others and recognizing and adapting the situation. And it's something you can change. It's a behavioral characteristic of of of people, and you can if it's something you can change, it's something you can improve on and get better.
So it's it's really critical to the whole person leader to have that, emotional intelligence and be able to read the room, read themselves, and properly interact. Yeah. I can't agree more. You know? And it and it makes me think so. As you mentioned those three pillars of leadership, would you say, are leaders born or made? Yeah. I know it's a tough question. I don't mean to hit you with that one, but No. No. No. It's, you know, it's a question that's often asked.
And and I think people are are born with an aptitude towards leadership, and then their formative years define, how much they they gravitate towards leadership, how they're raised, you know, what what they get from their parents, what they get from their colleagues, from their schools. But leadership, to be a leader, it's an evolutionary process. It's a continual learning and adaptive process that if you wanna be good at it or better at it, you've gotta work at it. It's like a relationship.
If you want it to be a strong relationship, you're gonna have to work at it. So I think it's it's it's an app you have an aptitude for, but it has nothing to do with introvert, extrovert. It has to do with, you know, your your ability to communicate with people and inspire them to do great things. You know, and I I agree with that. I mean, I think any like, we're we're talking about leaders, but not just to to leaders. Mhmm. I think what's important is anybody can show leadership.
Anybody can emerge as a leader. It doesn't matter how young you are or how tenured you are, what your role is, what the level is in that role, or where you fit on the team. You can display leadership every single day in the way you carry yourself, how you help others, how you treat others, going above and beyond, all the things that we already talked about to an extent.
But, I think it's important to realize that leadership skills and leadership ability and displaying leadership doesn't need to be reserved to the person that's in charge. Do you agree with that? Yeah. I mean, we you're describing informal leaders as well.
I mean, people that are stepping up and whether it's as simple as holding someone accountable to accomplish something or getting steering someone back in the right direction if they're getting off the path or or misunderstood what the guidance or direction was. It's and those are the most powerful people in the organization, those that are that are taking charge below the surface or stepping in below the surface who maybe don't have a formal leadership role in the organization.
But, you know, you you hit it. You don't have to be Vince Lombardi to be a leader. Right. That's my point. The yeah. The charismatic, maybe in your face or flamboyant person. The best leaders I've ever observed were some of the quietest people I've ever known. Yeah. Their words were impactful. They meant a lot when they said it because they didn't say much. But when they said it, it was really impactful. That's awesome. Yeah. So what recommendations do you have to help folks grow as leaders?
Yeah. Lot of things you can do. I think the most important thing is to observe other leaders and keep a book on it. And and I literally used to keep a book as a junior officer of what I liked and what I didn't like about leaders. And it was focused on different topic areas, but I would take notes. You know, that was a great way of doing that. I really don't wanna do it that way when I'm in that role or at that position.
So I think you observe and you you learn as much from those that are not effective leaders as you do from those that are good leaders. So I think that's an important piece of of being a growing as a leader. The other piece is to study the study the art of leadership, to read, for personal study, whether it's reading books about great leaders or reading books written by thought leaders about organizational culture, leadership, what successful leaders have done.
So I think those are those are 2 really important pieces. And and, lastly, I'd say, find mentors or people that are successful that you you you wanna grow up to be like or who you emulate or parcel and and and ask them questions and, directly you know, not confront them, but directly communicate with them. I'd like to you know, I'm interested to learn more about your thought process behind that. What why did you do it that way? What what inspired you to make that change?
I I saw that communication you had with that person. That was interesting. You know? Why didn't you approach it a different way? And to be curious about it and learn from others, I think that's a great great way to develop and grow as a leader.
Yeah. You know, a lot of people in in our world, they're they may be they may be looking to get to the next step in their career, whether it's, applying for a job, looking to break into industry, or maybe they're looking to position themselves for a promotion. So what advice do you have to those people where, to help them stand out? Yeah. Well, you know, in in the military, a lot of cases, you say if you're if you're working to stand out, then you're you're not being a good team player.
So there's there's a there's a it's a bit tainted with me. You know, my my short answer is do your job and do it well, and you're gonna stand out. If you got a culture of, of learning and growth, people are gonna recognize that you're doing your job well and you're standing up. But be a good teammate with others on your team. Be curious about what they're doing. You know?
One of the things we do in one of my leadership programs, it's called advancing leaders with Vistage, is we we give them assignments to grow cross functionally outside of their area. These are director level positions, leaders in those areas. And we say, every month, spend some time with somebody outside of your functional area and have a conversation so you have a better feel for it. So you're not in a meeting.
You can you can understand and have some empathy or maybe even some advice for someone not in your functionary because you you you invest the time to learn and grow, from them, somebody else. Another thing you can do is is make yourself available for, call it, additional projects or activities. You know, be be on a tiger team. Volunteer. You're looking for a group of people to plan something. Again, you're gonna get cross fertilized with people outside your functional area.
You're gonna learn and grow in other areas, and you're gonna be perceived as a team player who's who's giving more back to your organization than just what's in your job description. I think all of us are you can be impactful and and be noticed. Yeah. It really it boils down to doing your job well and and being a good team. Yeah. And I I'll tell you, I like, I'm a big advocate of you know, try to be a problem solver and try to serve others.
And I'm I'm talking to a guy who served our country for 30 years, and you know about service. And and, you know, so I'm, I I I'm sure you agree with me that if if you can help solve a problem for somebody, you're putting yourself in a position where there's a sense of indebtedness, and that person now is gonna appreciate you even more and say, hey. You know what? Mhmm. You know, I'll never forget that. You went above and beyond.
You helped me out of a situation or whatever the situate whatever the the the situation might have been. But I always try to tell people, you know, one of the best ways to to establish yourself in your career is be a problem solver, serve others, volunteer, raise your hand, go the extra mile. That's how you're gonna stand out. So and this is my chance to say, Mac, thank you for your service. I I wanna make sure that before I end this conversation, I say that.
So you you definitely I appreciate you coming on here. You're amazing. Any final pieces of advice, words of wisdom that you can share to our group here? Well, Tom, I first would I wanna say, thank you for being a parent who encouraged your your son to serve. People often ask me, you know, you know, thank you for your service. What can I do? And I my number one thing is encourage others.
You know, it's 1 half of 1 percent of our country that goes into the military service, and there's so many others serving the nation. You know, law enforcement, fire, you know, critical, industries and medical profession that that our country needs. But the the it's parents, that set the example and or friends or mentors to get people to to sign up and and put on a uniform. So you you encouraged and supported your son doing that, and thank you for doing that. Words of wisdom departing.
Leadership is, is pretty simple, but it's pretty complicated. I think I think I got a good friend who's a a thought leader who's, has a model called goodwill leader, and his definition of leadership is that leadership is a communication relationship in which the leader secures the cooperation of the problem. And that's that was it's a very impactful, statement and because there's so many different definitions.
Mostly, we we describe leadership by characteristics, but it's really that's one of the best definitions, if not the best definition I've ever heard. And it is a communication relationship that and you want that person to follow you. In the military, they follow you generally out of it's not fear, but it's, you know, the the ethos of loyalty and and commitment to the common cause and the selfishness. In the private sector, it's different.
So you have to secure that cooperation of the follower, and and you do it through effective communications. And I think if leaders recognize that and if leaders real realize that people don't really care what you know, they just wanna know that you care, then you can be a pretty effective leader. So that's my departing comments or or thoughts on leadership. Very complicated skill set, but also pretty basic if you really boil it down to something. Yeah. Good stuff, man. I appreciate you.
We're gonna end it at that, but thank you. I really appreciate you coming on. You're awesome. And, you know, we're we're definitely grateful again for for your service and and for everything you've done for our country. Thank you, Tom. Good to see you. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.