Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Mike Hankethman, who is a career coach and president of the Pilotage Group. And Mike and I talk about how to build high performing MSLs, teams, and leaders. Great conversation. And don't forget to follow us on YouTube and Instagram. We're on both now. Much appreciated. Thanks, guys. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Mike. Thanks for joining me, buddy.
How are you doing? Good and well, Tom. Thanks thanks for having me. I've been really enjoying your, podcast on the MSL talks. It's outstanding. Well, come on. You're you're saying that because yeah. You're saying that because you're a friend. You're biased. Of course. Now listen. I'm I know I've been asking you for a while to come on. I I know that you have helped so many people in the medical affairs space, So I'm really eager for you to share your knowledge.
So why don't you tell everybody what you do and and what you're up to these days? Sure. Thanks, Tom. I I I'm founder and owner of Pilotage Group, and our primary focus is pharmaceutical industry. And and my personal focus and passion, probably the last 10 years, has been around, field medical development. And in the areas we focus on is, team training, soft skills training on effective KOL engagement, storytelling, on how to have an impactful story from a slide deck, things like that.
And, the biggest part of my practice lately is a lot of executive coaching. I work currently with about 26 executives in field medical. I just found 10 years ago, Tom, I love working with field medical folks. It's you know, I I really enjoy working with people much smarter than I am. I learn a lot a great deal, but I think it's the passion for helping patients and and developing and in improving science. It really intrigues me. Awesome. Well, you know, I I you do you're very good at what you do.
I know because I know a lot of your your your clients and customers. So what let's let's kinda jump into I know we were gonna talk about, you know, performance and and how to, you know, improve, MSLs and MSL team, you know, performance. But what what are you seeing right now? Obviously, it's a crazy time here in 2021 coming from a crazy 2020. You know, what are you seeing these days? Yeah. It's it's interesting.
So, you know, with the pandemic, there's been a a major shift in not being able to get out and see the customer. And what I've been working on with customers is how can I have a better virtual approach? What are some tricks that I can be using? And, you know, and simple ones that I've been talking to clients about, Tom, is, you know, dress for success. Dress as if you're going to be in front of the customer live. Be well prepared. Do your homework before you have that interaction.
Look for commonalities in in the discussion where you can move From a scientific discussion to an emotional based discussion. I you know about 10 years ago, you were mentioning performance. A senior director client of ours, had mentioned hey you guys do this great training on soft skills understanding our customer and, really analyzing the msls Have you ever thought about doing high performance work?
So that started a really cool journey for me about 10 years ago And we started interviewing, and and I looked at it before our call today, Tom. I've actually interviewed 232, what we call, high performing field medical folks, whether it's an MSL, a national, managed markets medical managed markets person. And we're looking for key attributes of high performance. And and the the big takeaway that I've gotten is that entrepreneurial spirit. I'm running my own territory, my own list of KOLs.
Yeah. How can I be more effective in those areas? And and what I've seen is a real strong development. So you're talking about how can I be successful this year?
We're seeing a a a great change in the MSL role to being more of a instead of just delivering scientific information, to becoming the partner of choice, bringing outside resources to the customer building those strong collaborative relationships So it's been a lot of fun 10 years ago The job of the msl was really go out and deliver scientific information Now companies are realizing the importance of field medical in the relationship building and
bringing more value to the KOL, to the payer groups, and all all their customers out there. They're actually an integral part of that bringing most value, to the KOL. So I I've seen a real nice shift in the role of the MSL the past 10 years. Yeah. No. For sure. I mean, there's a whole different value proposition now, than there ever was.
So what are you what are you hearing and what are you seeing from leadership, from medical affairs leaders, and what they're looking for expectations, and and and what are you hearing from that side of the equation? Sure. Sure so, you know as I said I'm working with a good good amount of leaders in field medical And you know, they used to focus on you know quantity of the interaction how many interactions are we having? I'm seeing a shift there as well where they're going in and looking out.
You know, what's the value of that interaction? Mhmm. What is what resources are we bringing to the customer? What are they telling us to collect insights? I'm seeing a need for best practices, asking better open ended questions, building those stronger relationships. So I think the leaders I'm I'm working with lately are more focused on the quality of the interaction. How are we bringing value in the field and collecting really good intel to share internally?
What resources can we bring besides that disease state that we're talking about? What other resources can we bring to bring more value to our customers? So it's a it's been a nice shift from quantity to really quality of the visits that they're seeing. Yeah. And that makes sense. And we're hearing that, really pretty much across the board. So let's get back to the MSL.
What other what other advice do you have for MSLs on how they might may be able to excel as we move into 2021, and then hopefully come out of this current pandemic into a time where it might resemble older days where, you know, you can actually go visit KOLs. And we're we're hoping that starts pretty soon. Most of our, clients that we're working with, you know, their POAs, their their various meetings that they're having are pretty much put off for the rest of this year.
I am seeing some areas that are starting to get back to live visits. But you and I both being on the East Coast, I doubt that will happen again this year. So it's it's really working on being more effective virtually Mhmm. And working on those skill sets. But what I found the MSL areas is intellectually, they're super strong. They know the science. They're good they're good at discussing science. The real focus for this year, I would focus, is more on the soft skill development.
How do I build those relationships? And I always say beginning of the year, you know, do a self assessment. What was I successful at last year? What do I need to work on to develop those relationships going forward? And we look at high performance shoe. Interesting fact is most high performers that I've interviewed, 70% of their time was in cultivating and building effective relationships in the field, whether that's virtually now or or in person.
And I I don't mean just going to see the customer or the KOL. What I mean is the preparation, the pre call planning, doing the research on the KOL, looking for commonalities. What white papers have they have they written? What is their interest? What is their what is their focus within their office? Look for commonalities. Do that homework so when you get that time with them, you can hit it right out of the park by getting an understanding what's important to them.
I always say to MSLs, don't fuck focus on what's important to you. Focus on what's important to the KOL, and guide that discussion around what their needs are. You can get your KPI and and the information you need kinda wedged in there, but find out really build a rapport and relationship by understanding the customer first. That is absolutely key. Yeah. That's such great advice. And I know, you know, you're an expert in evaluating high performing MSL teams.
So let's talk about that a little bit in what your experiences and what you've noticed, how MSLs are evaluated, what you're picking up on, and what advice you're giving to companies to help them to really, improve their team performance. Sure. So, you know, about as I mentioned, about 10 years ago, Tom, we we have a proprietary system that we walk folks through, and it really understands their thinking systems, how they think, how they process information.
And then we have a program where we run through 64 different skill sets, productivity, organizational skills, how they act in front of the customer. And and we score those. And we developed a benchmark based on high performance. And from my interviews, you know, few key takeaways is really understanding the customer better. As I said earlier, 70% of the time, high performance is spent on cultivating and building and meeting with KOLs. Mhmm. An entrepreneurial approach. It's your business.
You have to run that. What I really like about high performance is the collaborative environment, bringing other experts to the table, bringing other resources from the company, to to their customers, their KOLs, etcetera. I find that the they're always looking to develop and improve soft skills, better, communication skills, understanding how to move in a conversation, how to tell a great story from a slide deck. And I I have a great example.
I was talking with a high performer last week, and I said, you know, walk me through a customer engagement. And she said, Mike, I focus on what's important to them, and I try to create indebtedness. And I said, oh, interesting. Walk me through that. And I'm a big fan of creating indebtedness. She goes, I I do a lot of research on on the customer I'm going to see, and this happens to be a, national payer account.
And she said, in my research, I found that they were really focused on their presentation skills, developing a really effective presentation style. And she said, funny enough, I had just gone through a course, and, you know, she's a very good presenter. So she said, I called and said, hey. I have some ideas around that presentation program you're looking to improve. Can I share some ideas with you? Well, she went and did her presentation, and they said, wait a minute.
Would you come back and do it for the whole team? And she said absolutely. Had nothing to do with the science piece of it. It was meeting the client where they are and finding something important. She created indebtedness. Now she calls. They take her call immediately. She needs time with them. She gets the time. So it's it's thinking outside of the box. I think high performers are never satisfied with where they're at. They're always looking to improve.
And and she had this woman had a great great analogy. She goes she goes, I look at the customer like a puzzle. I wanna figure out how I can bring value, what's important to them, and said, you know what, Mike? It always boils down. It's never about me. It's always about my customer. And I'm like, that is the definition of high performance in my opinion.
Some other things that we look for is, you know, your strategic thought process versus tactical Are you initiator versus a maintainer of of new ideas new products and we find that high performers are great initiators They're great at strategic thought process. They're great at problem solving. But what really caught my attention was their collaborative environment. They're always looking to help others. They're always looking to bring teams together.
And I find high performers look at not only their external customers, but their internal customers, the account directors, the sales team, and they build a really cohesive, collaborative environment where they're they're sharing ideas together. They stay within the compliance. Don't get me wrong. There's that fine line. But the it's more of a collaborative environment that we're seeing. Well, I tell you, it it's I mean, I'm so much great information.
But in a nutshell, it's when you simplify it, you take care of your KOLs and your customers' internal and external, and therein creates the indebtedness. And from there, now you're developing the relationships around you, and it just brings things to a whole another level. I mean, is that is it that simple? It is. It's it is. It's not rocket science. Yeah. But it is simple.
It's about stepping outside of myself and meeting others where they're at to have to build those, what I call, trusted partnerships. That's our goal. Yeah. It's to create trusted partnerships with our customers Yep. By figuring out what's important to them. How can I bring them value? What resources? All those good things that build those effective relationships.
Yeah. And, Mike, so I know in our conversations, I know you've trained and mentored and and you've coached 3,000, you know, different job functions, different people from different job functions. So can you talk about what you've learned in all of your experience, how it might relate to, field medical, and what takeaways people might be able to just from from other learnings that you've developed. Yeah. So from I'll just talk leadership for a moment.
What I've seen in in in we talked high performance earlier on MSO, but, you know, we also look at high performing leaders. And and the interesting part I found with field medical leadership, the real good leaders that I see out there are not so much focused on their growth, but focused on building their teams, understanding the strengths, areas for improvement with those teams, areas where they can coach to build. What they're trying to build is a high performance team.
That's the goal of most leaders that I've worked with. So where we kind of bring value there is we help them walk through the assessment, identifying the high performers, and then give tools and techniques on areas for development, whether it's better strategic thought process, better, customer engagement skill set. So I find that leaders that are looking for team growth make the best leaders. So we always see those in the managing up theory. Right? So I need to match.
I always find leaders that promote and build their teams, get back recognition automatically. So that's one of the big things we see in leadership. In working with leaders currently, you know, things that I look for is helping them define their brand. Mhmm. Looking at their network internally and externally and building that strong network. I hate the following statement, but it's not so much what you know. It's who you know within an organization. So really building that strong network.
And we talked about creating this indebtedness earlier is bringing that value as a leader, and and really building those cross functional relationships is key. And as you know, in your business, it's those external relationships. LinkedIn is a great tool. Staying in touch with folks. Lightly touching. Hey. I've read this article. I thought it might be of interest to you. Those are little things building that network.
And then I always do in the beginning of the year, Tom, is is taking a look at, you know, where are we successful as a leader last year? Almost like, you know, a very simple stop, start, continue. What are some things I'm doing really well as a leader I need to continue doing? What are some things that might be getting in my way that I should stop doing? And and and holding that as a working document throughout the years and accountability factor.
But I find the best leaders are all about team development, Working, coaching their teams, spending a lot of time in development seems to be the areas that, the real good leaders I work with are focused on. Yeah. And now do you help these leaders and MSLs in establishing goals, or do they typically have goals that come from the organization that are already in place? Sure. So every year, we have the IDP. So I I kinda look at the IDP and say, let's let's kinda peel the onion a little bit.
How you know, what are your goals? Where do you wanna be in short term, long term goals? What are some things we should be looking at to get there? So I absolutely help with the goals. And and IDP being individual development plan. Correct. I'm sorry. Individual development plans. And and, you know, really the what I find with really well established good leaders Mhmm. Is they are looking for opportunities within that IDP for their team.
But I always tell leaders, MSLs, you are in charge of your own development. So if you have an IDP, don't rely on upper management or your leader to provide that. You have to go out and do the homework yourself. It's your development. Make time for it. That's the key. And then what about folks? So we talk about individual development plans. You know, you have your, your top performers or your your the the MSLs that are looking to advance. They're looking to get promoted within your career.
So what advice do you have for someone that's really looking to make a name for themselves? They may wanna get promoted into another role. What what do you say to them? Number 1, and and I'll I'll preach this till the day I die, is is networking. Make sure you are a collaborative team player. Make sure that you're working your relationships. You know, success is based on activity. So in the field, you make sure you're developing those relationships.
If you get an opportunity for a good work stream to to prove your visibility, look for your leader to help you with visibility. Those are key areas that I would focus on. Hone in on your, customer engagement skills. You know, what I see in high performance, those that have these really good relationships externally also have really good relationships internally. And we talked about indebtedness. Go above and beyond. Create indebtedness.
And one of the big things I'm a big fan of in in in my coaching, and and this is great for folks that are looking to get to that next level. And I I don't call it mentor. I think mentor is a different animal in itself. I call them setters of influence. And I say you only need 2 or 3, but let's say I wanna become a senior MSL. And there's a senior MSL that I admire, that I really look up to. They have certain skill sets that I'm looking to develop.
You know, have a conversation saying, hey, I really you know, first, it's give a compliment. Mhmm. I really like the way you conduct your meetings with KOLs. I'm looking to improve wondering if you'd be willing to help me. That's the key word is the word help because we wanna help others be successful. Right? Mhmm. Could I pick your brain from time to time? 15 minute meeting. Give me some ideas. Is there books that you're reading?
Is there approaches that you have in the field that would help me be more successful? So now I have these three centers of influence who have taken an active interest in my development. So when I come up for that senior MSL position, I have 3 folks that are looking for me to be successful, and they're going to be helping me get to that senior level. I always say, you always wanna gauge your success off of someone else's success.
So if I'm helping you, Tom, to develop your company and you have great success, I share in that success. So that's the beauty of those centers of influence. Someone normally higher than you in the company that you admire, it has to be genuine, and you have to trust that person in order to ask them for help.
But, I find that a really great way to build a strong network because as you build those centers of influence, those folks are introducing you to some of the folks in their network that could help you that may have helped them. So it's really full circle if you will. And I'll tell you, people are, from what I can tell, so willing to help others. I just think that you need to ask. You have to raise your hand. Right? And you have to put yourself out there.
And it goes back to what you were saying before. So now these centers of influence, they're helping others. Now they there's a sense of indebtedness for the people they're helping. Yeah. So, again, it it works both ways for the leaders and the folks that, you know, are raising their hand. You know, everybody winds up getting a piece of of, of that. Yeah. And the and the other piece too, there there's the to bring it full circle.
Mhmm. I always say, you know, when you ask that person to be your center of influence Mhmm. When you say you get that senior MSO promotion, the commitment you have to make is you have to help that next person underneath you. You have to pay it forward. I'm a big fan of paying it forward. And, also, if I want you know, say I'm I wanna be that senior MSL. I wanna be the associate director, whatever that may be. Let people know this is your goal.
Share your goals with others because some folks will say, hey. You know, I when I was trying to get to that position, here's some things that I did that I found successful that may help you. So people wanna see other people be successful. So they'll find avenues to help you be successful outside of the center of influence. So Yeah. If you have goals, share them with your leaders, share them with your teammates.
I always say when it's open in the universe, you probably picked this a little crazy, but when it's out in the universe, it's more likely to happen. I'm a big fan. I I but I am totally I feel like when you verbalize something, when you state your goals and you verbalize something, you know, you're you are putting it out there and you're making a commitment to it. You know, you can think it. You can even write it down.
But when you verbalize it and you tell others, you're making a commitment to it. You're making commitment to yourself, and you're making a commitment to whoever's hearing it. And I I believe that there's power in that. Yeah. I I absolutely agree. It's it's really essential, to be honest. And what if and let's let's talk a little bit about, writing stuff down and keeping a journal or or or documenting your goals. Are you a big advocate of that?
I absolutely you know, if it's I you know, I'll speak about communication styles for a minute. Those, what I call, visual component folks that are very structured in their thought process. They write their goals out. I am a big fan of it. When it's down on paper, and I have it in whether it's my book that I keep, you know, my appointment book in my computer, on my screen, those goals are a constant reminder of where am I and where do I need to be to achieve those goals.
So I'm a big fan of writing them down. Even long term goals. Yeah. And as you go, as they get closer and closer, where am I? Where do I need to be? It kind of pushes you to achieve those goals. So, yes, I'm a big fan of writing them down. You know, we're old timers. We're we're kind of you just say, yeah. I write it down in my book. There are apps for this stuff. You know? Like, you can download apps to, you know, to keep yourself on track and stay organized, whether it's to do list or goals.
So there's so many tools. There's so much available right now to help with what we're calling you know, it's career development, but it's performance. There's so many different things that we can kinda give a name to it. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. We're looking now looking at into the future a little bit. What advice do you have for MSLs and even MSL leaders to help keep them focused, to help keep them on track? Any advice there?
Sure. I, you know, what I, what I'm really enjoying in the marketplace, especially in field medical, is the, the need for constant development. So, you know, what we're seeing lately is, slide deck presentations, the art of telling stories. So I I think what I'm seeing is a really good investment from a lot of these field medical teams in the development of the soft skills of their MSLs, their field folks. That's really encouraging because that's really, to me, where the rubber meets the road.
I I haven't met an MSL that wasn't strong in science and had very good intellectual skills. It's the emotional side is building that rapport. I would focus That would be my main main focus going forward is continuing in development of my soft skills. Yep That's great. Yeah Awesome. Well, I can't let you go without asking you. You know, a lot of folks that tune into this podcast are they're job seekers. You know?
They're they're listening because they're looking potentially to, you know, to either get into this role or to get into a new MSL position. So what advice do you have for for those folks, for job seekers? Sure. So as you know, you and I have worked together, and, you know, referred some of my clients to you, and we've kinda looked at, and you and I've had discussions around what I call fact to value. Mhmm. What I've seen most CVs out there are fact based CVs.
Mhmm. And and what they need to be is value. So if you're out there looking for a job, look at your CV and say, is it a value based? So ask yourself, based on that fact, what is the benefit or the value of that fact? And make that first in your statement. The fact is fine, but what value? When you can deal on a value resume, CV, conversation, that's where you that's where really, you'll seek you'll get interest from folks. It's how this person deals in value.
How many CVs have you reviewed in your day, Tom, where it's all fact based? And quite honestly, it doesn't tell the story. Yeah. So dealing in value. So if you were and if you're you're paying someone to do it, but look at a value resume, CV is key. Step outside of your comfort zone. Ask people for help. You know, LinkedIn is a great tool to network. You see someone at a company that you're looking to get into, reach out to them. Say, hey.
I have a great interest in in being an MSL at this company. Any advice you may have? Step outside of your comfort zone and start networking, to achieve your goals. Yeah. That would be my greatest advice. Value based resume, and then your ability to reach out to folks and ask for help and network. Yep. Great advice. Would you agree with that? I you may you may be And my advice is identical.
It's it's worded a little differently, but when we look at at CVs and resumes, it's like, don't document what you did, document what you achieved. Yes. Use action verbs to describe how you accomplished your goals, and what you were proud of, and how you completed projects, and how you were successful. Not just, you know, I showed up for work and I did this. Because it's that's the that's what your job function is, but it doesn't really show the value of what you what you did there.
Amen. Yeah. It's the exact same language. It's just it. Absolutely. Good stuff, man. Well, let we'll we're gonna leave it there because, I mean, I'll tell you, great, great info. Mike, totally not surprised. You did not disappoint. Appreciate you. You're, you're so great at what you do, and I wanna thank you for coming on. Tom, my pleasure and and really appreciate you inviting me on.
And, and as I said, I've been following your podcast, and some of the interviews are outstanding with the MSLs and some of the leaders that you're working with, which is really helping the industry. So, you know, hats off to you, sir. Thank you. I much appreciate it, and, best to you as well, my friend. Keep your pets. Great. Talk to you soon. Alright, man. Bye now. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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