Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Chad Fellers. He's director of MSL's at Harmony Biosciences. And we talk about how to create a great MSL team culture. Chad's awesome. He's a return guest. I think you guys are really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube. And join us for MSL Talk Live on Clubhouse, which is the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. Thanks a lot.
Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Chad. Welcome back, my friend. Thanks for joining me again. Man, Tom, it is so good to be here. Thanks for the opportunity to to connect again, and we're looking forward to the talk we have today. No doubt. We had a great chat last time. It was very popular, and I'm really thrilled. I'm I'm really appreciative. Love talking to you. Love having you on.
So this, you know, just to give a little background, this topic came about we talked about this the first conversation we had as, hey. You know, it would be another follow-up podcast, is to talk about how important it is to establish the right culture, on an MSL in an MSL team. So I think this is great. I can't wait to talk about it. Why don't you do a quick intro just to remind everybody who you are and, you know, who you work for and all that all that good stuff?
Sure. So, again, my name is Chad Fellers. I'm a director of medical science liaisons at Harmony Biosciences. I've had the fortune of being able to serve in some capacity, really since the beginning, just in different ways. I came on as a senior MSL, transitioned to a regional, director, and then I've been serving in this official capacity since the beginning of of 2021. I serve a team of 8 MSLs across the US. That's changed a little bit since the last time you and I talked.
I think that there's been opportunities we can, we can discuss more when we talk about investment in people, but we've had some transitions over the years, some growth, and opportunities for individuals. And so yeah. So it's been an amazing journey. The team that I get to work alongside is truly best in class. And really it is just in essence because of what they do and how they care and the way they conduct themselves.
So, when we talk about this conversation, it's really not about it it could be part about mindset, but it's certainly the people that help really drive kind of those ideas. So yeah. So that's a little bit about me. Awesome. Awesome. Well and before we get into it, I have a real quick shout out and this is amazing. So just looked at our rankings today, and we're actually ranked 10th in Hong Kong in the careers category. So I just wanna give a quick shout out to all listeners in Hong Kong.
Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you for bringing us to, to the top 10. So, appreciate you. So, Chad, let's get back. So you have this team of 8 MSLs, and I know you've you've built this team, and you, you know, you created this great culture, which we're gonna talk about. But you're a great leader. So you say I got this great team, and, you know, it's all about the people, but it's a it's about the leader. And I wanna know right from like, I guess, the the just cut to cut to the chase.
What do you what do you do to foster the right team culture? And where does it start? Yeah. So really good question. I think one of the biggest things for me is, there's some foundational principles I think are necessary to really kind of shape culture and what you wanna do and how you wanna lead. So, one of the things and we'll we'll talk about those, but it's always, our guiding principles.
And we have these conversations routinely, whether it's through our 1 on 1, conversations, between myself and the MSL. It could be as a team. We usually review this a few different times a year. Part of this is setting the groundwork when someone's onboarded. So, some of those things that that are really, foundational, that I've seen really just based off of just my experience with an industry or just career in general positive intent.
So and we can talk about each one of these individually if you'd like or we can just we can go through those but positive intent granted trust servant leadership. And really, those are kind of some of the key things. People first, team centricity, transparency. Those are really kind of foundational and and drive the success of of our team. So we revisit these time and time again, and look for ways to act actively embody them.
So let's talk let's let's kind of break some of these down because I I I'm I'm taking some notes here. Talk about positive intent, and how do you instill that in people or look for it in people or foster that kind of environment? Yeah. So positive intent, if I could say it in simple terms is really how do we communicate with one another? I think about even just the, world that we live in, it's easy to pick up a text or communicate via text or email.
Those have no emotion that are attached to them. So, oftentimes, our personalities, the way we say things can be received in a multiple different ways. So I think this is just kind of a fundamental thing that we are for one another. We are not in competition with one another. The things that we do are really set to how we can elevate our team, how we can really improve things for our company and ultimately for our providers who take care of patients.
So when we approach conversations, everything that we do is with a positive intent. So if there is something that is received in the wrong way, the way we respond, hey, Tom, you know, you sent this text. This is what I think it says. Help me understand a little bit more what you were trying to communicate. So setting that aside, we want to assume that, we are for one another. Mhmm. I love that. And so you have this this team philosophy of positive intent in your communication internally.
Do you carry that out externally too? Sir, absolutely. I think that even as we think about how we approach engagements, sending things electronically, we have to be mindful of how this could be received. So that is part of a best practice that we have when we have our weekly team meetings. This is a, this is a common discussion topic is how do we impact? How do we reach people? How do they receive information? How can we foster, as we talked about last time. Right?
More of a mindset of, a partnership or an advisor, a colleague with our KOL. So part of this is foundational and how we, how they may receive the information we we send them. Yeah. Awesome. So let's talk about servant leadership. Tell me a little bit about what that means to you and to your team. This is one of my favorite things. So, I servant leadership is what can I do, to empower the others on our team to make them look good, to make my customer look good? It's not about me.
And there's some reasons behind this, you know, so I've, the and hopefully, this will speak to the scientists, right, that are that are listening, the MSLs that are listening to this. So I'll say Cleveland Clinic, actually published the benefits of serving others really in 2, 2020. And so here's some things that they noted when we do this and have this kind of mindset. So they talk about things that it does, like lower blood pressure. It increases self esteem. There's less depression.
There's less stress levels, longer life, greater happiness, and satisfaction. So we have to take a step back for a second and really to that even to the granted trust that we talked about. Right? So when we think about the things that we had to do to earn our, our d degree, if you will. So I would say earn trust is a norm. It's part of our doctor our doctoral training. We have to defend our work. We have to prove ourselves. In a corporate environment, we have to prove that we are trusted.
So if we have a mindset of, hey, you bring value. We assume this. We're gonna give you opportunity to do this, and part of that is serving others. And when we do that, it goes back to it's better to give than receive. You can see there's evidence. I I get carried. I get excited again. So let me just say one more thing.
So there's evidence that when you give these behaviors, we actually secrete what we call feel good chemicals in our brain, serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, which is much more impactful than just taking something on on our own and owning it ourselves and trying to make a name for ourselves. So servant leadership is key, and I think it's really important as leaders that when we are really highlighting individuals, we're highlighting their success of leading in that way.
It just allows opportunity and growth beyond what our current capabilities are. And you're also elevating the team. The team's pulling together to help each other to bring everybody else up to another level. That's right. Exactly. That's great. I love that. And I you know, not to, you know, but just to jump in, I I I always feel better giving a gift than receiving a gift. It's just that feeling you get, the look on the person's face, the appreciation, the gratitude, and it just feels good.
So in the same way, I love this idea of servant leadership and what it means to the individuals, but also the team. And and and what kind of culture I'm sure that winds up, cultivating. So you mentioned team centricity. Mhmm. Yeah. That's yeah. So that is exactly what you just said. Right? So if we have a people first mindset Mhmm. And which is really my approach to to leadership.
I think when I'm invested in the person, not what they can do for me or their their experiences, how I can plug and play them. I think that that's been a common question with we've had the fortune, like I said, of building our team this year with 3, 3 new team members. The questions that they've asked is, you know, so where do you see me fitting in? Or what can I bring to the team? And that often stifles people. So I think I try to relate to them as, hey.
I wanna understand what where you want, what brings you life, what your giftings truly are, not your experiences in the past that you've been pigeonholed. So having a people first mentality, that the things that we do impact the team, that's like you just mentioned, that's that mindset. The that the things that I bring are a piece of a puzzle, to really be able to elevate things beyond what we ever thought could be. Right? I think that it goes back to our convert first conversation.
How do you assess value of an MSL? Mhmm. And because it's this closed fisted mindset sometimes of I'm trying to prove myself. If we think about, elevating the team, the things that we can do, the, possibilities are really limitless. So that's why we have that mindset. Awesome. You mentioned transparency, which is pretty self explanatory, but you also mentioned granted trust. So let's talk about that. Yeah. So, again, I think it goes it really kinda goes hand in hand with with positive intent.
So when I think about, and I think we're gonna I I can imagine this leading to another place in our conversation, but will my grant trust to others around me? Listen, the IQ around my team, the EQ around my team is far greater than mine. So why would I not, empower others to be successful, whether it's on a project, whether it's an initiative, whether it's building from the ground up on a process we've never done? Why would I not invite them in?
So I'm going to create a freedom to fail, in essence. I will protect them internally, but I don't want them walking. Tom, you may be able to relate to this, but it's like going to the the old refrigerator freezers that we had. Right? So what do we have to do? We had to create our own ice. You would you have to take the ice tray. You have to go over to the sink, fill up the water, then you would stare at it, trying to make sure you don't spill the water going back to back to the refrigerator.
And I'll never forget, my dad said, hey. So if you will just look up and go ahead, your body will naturally know how to respond, and you won't spill the water. So I want that for my team. I want them to be able to look up and dare to dream and have that. So that that's part of the Granite Trust. If they feel like they have to earn it from me, their head is gonna be down. They're gonna be focused on a tactic versus trying to really empower them to influence our strategy.
So that's that's really in summary what granted trust means for our for our team. Awesome. That's great, man. I love these. I mean, you you put together this philosophy, and and you have these key ingredients that it it just makes so much sense. And I'm gonna ask you a really obvious question. But so you use all these ingredients to develop this awesome team culture. So what kind of benefits do you see? What kind of benefits do you see for your team?
What kind of benefits do you see for the organization? So yeah. So, again, I think it all goes back to both the value that we can demonstrate Mhmm. Both internally and externally. It So we we're even talking about how do we assess and communicate the value that we're bringing to the organization. So, like we're working on I have I have 3 team members right now that are working on creating a territory tool.
Those things have been done before, but how do we standardize a process to articulate the qualitative information internally, in a quantified way? We talked a little bit about the importance of doing that from an insight perspective, but how do we really incorporate that and communicate that? How do we align together? So, I've cast this idea, to my my fellow teammates, these 3. We were on a call today, for about 2 hours. Just really just kind of how what does this look like? What's granular?
Okay. What are needed? You go and do it and or and and and bring back additional ideas. And so so being able to do those things, just opens up the doors. It opens up opportunities for patients. We talked about ways of engaging KOLs, during the pandemic, right? So, conferences were closed. They weren't seeing people in the office. What's a way we can think differently? We did that with pure discussions. Right? Bringing in KOLs who missed that connection.
Those things don't happen if you don't create the environment to think differently. Right? So that's the value, just a few examples of what we've seen just over the past year. Well, it's obviously the conversation in medical affairs always comes back to value and performance. And what types of things can medical affairs leaders do to to incorporate the the right principles and techniques and best practices to get more performance, better performance, more value.
But to be able to show that back to the organization, I think that these are just such great ideas of how to do that. You start with your own team and your own team culture. You look at all of these different elements and ingredients. You build this this team that collaborates really well together, that works really well together, that elevates one another. And then you take these principles externally too. And obviously, it's working for you.
Yeah. And so I think the thing the thing that, is important, Tom, is it has to be front and center. This is foundational. I I I cannot emphasize this enough. This has to be, a part of every conversation in some way. This has to be felt. Mhmm. And we all feel things in different ways. It has to be tangible, because you you never stay in the same place. Right? So if you're not actively moving forward, you were going to slide back.
So how do we bring what's the mission statement on a company culture, portion of their website. How do we bring that into action? And so, I think if there's an investment in that, the rewards, the potential, are really limitless. And we're we're just now really getting to continue to tap into that, as a team, and I'm excited to see how this continues to progress. Yeah. Me too. You you also mentioned to me one time that one of the key ingredients is a sense of ownership.
So how talk let's talk about that a little bit and how have you been successful in in in developing that sense of ownership within your team? So if I can even go back to just the importance of having a team and permission to be curious. Mhmm. I think curiosity, opens up plenty of opportunities. So my team has the comfort level of asking. We talked about the why behind the why when we're asking for insights, from our KOLs.
We try to have that same mindset for approaches to what we're gonna do as a team. Right? So I think the importance of really, creating a sense of ownership is what we talked about just a few minutes ago. The example of the territory tool, being able to share the why, leveraging the team's IQ to inform the strategy, to be able to inform the the processes. The what that yields, is a few things. They get to grow in in their development as leaders. They get to communicate that to their teammates.
What that does is it also leads to buy in from the greater team. Right? Instead of I think one of the most frustrating things sometimes is, having things kind of push down from headquarters, and not speaking directly to our company by any means, but just in general, oftentimes things are thought of, without really explanation of what needs to why things need to be executed the way that they do. And and thinking through this.
This allows, this ownership allows them to be invested from the very beginning. Really having the mindset of yes if versus no because, and, it's something they can rally around, especially if they realize that it's a team goal with an ultimate purpose. Mhmm. Yeah. Awesome. So you you've worked really hard to develop this team culture and to instill these values and principles. But what happens before that?
So when you're recruiting and you're interviewing, I always have to bring it back to the recruiting side. When you're recruiting and you're interviewing folks, how do you assess candidates to see if they're a cultural fit? Yeah. It's a great question. And I and it's something I really need to think about as far as creating structure to it, if you will, as far as key questions.
But what I can say is the the first conversation I have with, someone that I'm considering to bring on the team is really just setting the mood, setting the tone that way. Right? This is going to be a conversation. Tell me about, obviously, tell me about yourself. But when I'm listening to the things that when I ask questions around what drives them, what, can you give me examples of how you've been successful?
The things I listen for are the ways that they have, really positioned the team for success. So we talk about, are there ways that they've demonstrated this type of servant leadership? Is that what brings them joy? Is it more of a, I I guess I could even say what, the things that, really are kind of, I wouldn't say red flags, but things I'd have to explore more is, do they have the mindset of keeping their is it about their individual success?
And do they keep it close to the best, to really kinda leverage themselves? Or is there are there individual ideas that they develop? Are they shared with the team to be more of a launching pad for new ways of increasing both influence, both to internal and external stakeholders. So I I really work to have a conversation and just listen. It's almost like the it's the 90, 10 rule or 80, 20, however you wanna look at. Right?
So, I wanna ask a question and get out of the way just to hear, because a lot of times it comes from the heart. I wanna get to the heart. Yeah. And you get a feel. Like, I know when I'm interviewing folks and hiring people from my team, you just wanna get that feel. You can kind of, you know, get that gut instinct. And the more you talk to to that person, the more you you start to develop an understanding and a gut feeling as to whether or not they're gonna fit within your culture. That's right.
That's right. It goes way beyond just what's on a piece of paper. Right. For sure. All the accomplishments or leadership things, those are all great and are certainly a component. But is this going to kill the momentum that we have? Or is this going to take it to the next level based on really their approach of executing that? So understanding how they've done that is certainly important.
And I think that there's a a lesson or a message to any job seekers that are out there that are listening to this. Realize that you're you're you're being evaluated from the very, very beginning to the very, very end of the process and everything that you're doing.
So everything from the way your CV or resume is is written and what you have on paper to the way you answer the phone, to the way you communicate, the questions you ask, if you ask questions, how engaging you are, the rapport that you build, every piece of it, you're being evaluated to see if you're a cultural fit. Right?
Yeah. Tom, I I can honestly say that if I look back to my team, I probably know within the first five minutes if there's someone that I want to move on to the next, the next conversation. And part of that is its authenticity, its energy, its sincerity. Mhmm. And it's a it's a curiosity component. All those things really weigh into that, that decision factor. Yeah. Amazing.
So you interview folks, you get that feel, you hire them, you bring them in, you train them, you have this awesome team culture. But now what do you do to cater towards their individual career satisfaction? Yeah. So again, this goes back to really the, the accomplishments or the thing, the leadership projects that they've been a part of, in their in their past.
Again, I reiterate to them, that we're going to the first thing that they're going to, have to do in many ways is a deconditioning process, of the standard that they've been a part of for many years, often times, right? Just because it is this approach, this focus on culture, in my experience is certainly different. And, whether it's, they have to receive and feel granted trust. They have to see this.
So I would even say during the training, I mean, one of the things that we're intentional, from the individual level is the number of conversations, checkpoints, etcetera, from each one of the teammates, just to get to know the person. Right? We we spend a lot of focus time, on our, weekly calls about sharing best practices or even experiences in the field, acknowledging, cheering on, etcetera. So they're they're feeling this. The team is really, invested in them.
But the things that I reiterate is, hey, we're going to I want them to get comfortable with that. And then as they start to, feel the trust that I've given them and, the way that I interact with them over a period of time, very few come in and say, hey. This is what I wanna do in 3 years, right, or 5 years, because they don't wanna give the impression that, that they're looking beyond kind of the current role.
They're I think that they may be afraid that the leader that's hiring them will that will be held against them. That's quite the opposite. I'm invested in the person, and I'm going to position them for that. There's sometimes where things have to be done or different assignments, and we all know that. But I'm gonna find out I'm gonna go on a journey with them to explore what it is that brings them happiness and fulfillment.
If they have that and they can share that, then we'll get on that, trajectory faster. If not, I'm here for however long it takes. And so they get that sense of commitments, and trust from me. And that's how I try to set the stage, and there's no set time limit for that. And so it's it's really just more towards the person versus a process. That kind of really kind of resonates between the difference between a leader and a manager, and and that whole notion is just the is that is that approach.
Well, it's funny. You you you kinda took the words out of my mouth, because that's one of the things that you said to me is is the concept of leading versus managing. So you just gave a perfect example of that. Yeah. So, yeah, I would even say this is, most of the people that I I I well, I think all the people that I work alongside, they hate it, or they know that I I don't like it when they say the word, or here's my manager, or here is this.
Because, I mean, when I hear that, you hear the word micromanager? You've heard that before. Right? I've never heard I've never heard micro leader. Right? That doesn't seem and so there's some there's some core things. Right? So, managers are really characterized by power and control, whereas leaders influence and inspire. So there that's one thing managers hide areas of weakness.
I think the thing that we talked about transparency and vulnerability, I think leaders expose those areas of gaps in their own selves and invite others to step in and support. And then I would just say managers focus on process first, as we talked earlier, and then leaders focus on people. So, yeah. So that's, that's why I think leadership is different. Not, I don't know. Or I I think the models that are in place kind of lend themselves more to management versus versus leadership.
And that's something we wanna actively, I have a bunch of leaders on my team, and I wanna support. Right? So, I wanna get out of their way so they can do their job. Awesome. It's great stuff. So thinking about the current times in the pandemic, has that affected your culture? And has the pandemic been, has it made it a more challenging environment to be able to continue to foster your culture? So really good question. I was out with one of my, MSLs.
So I think region dependence, I think, I think there's an eagerness to get back in the field wherever possible. I think it's still region dependent, but that's, had a chance to go to New York, or Philadelphia, to to visit, they must sell in the New York, Philadelphia region. We went out to dinner with a KOL. But before that, you know, we we embrace that hello.
And she's like, you know, I mean, this doesn't feel much different because we see each other from the we've now see each other from the virtual standpoint. I think the pandemic has actually been a positive thing for our team culture. MSLs in my experience don't like to be on video. They don't like the video cameras.
Traditionally, that's something that you would see more in the commercial parts of the organization, making sure people are paying attention to the trainings and all these types of things and engagement from a virtual. But we really kind of leaned into just the technology and the capabilities that we bring.
So when we're having weekly weekly conversations and see each other 2 or 3 times a week on video versus in the past, we'd see each other once a quarter or the team would see each other, maybe semi annually. Right? So I think it's I think I think you can look at everything, and and choose to see the positive in it. And I think that because the environment we have, it's been a benefit. Awesome. I mean, I love that. I love so you're so positive, man.
You know, there there's nothing negative that comes out of your mouth. So you you definitely are just a tremendous, you know, talk to talk, walk the walk kinda guy. I just I appreciate you, and I appreciate everything that you're doing. And I I you're welcome on this podcast anytime. Just know that. Tom, I I really appreciate. Thank you for giving me the trust.
I mean, you've the the, venue and platform that you've, you've created really to empower MSLs to do their job well, medical affairs do their job well. It's just a it's it's been a great need, that you've been able to step into. Thanks for trusting me to be able to, be a part of it. I I do love our conversations. I'm passionate about these things that we've had a chance to to to connect about. So thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, man. No. I could I mean, people can see it.
We can hear it in your voice. And the reason this podcast has been successful is because of people like you and all the other awesome guests that I have. I'm just a tiny little piece of it. You guys are you guys are the mastermind. Mastermind. So thank you for coming back on. This was awesome. We'll have to think of, you know, episode 3. Let's do it. Part 3. Alright, pal. Sounds good. Alright. Thank you so much, Tom. Thank you. Alright. Okay. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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