Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Annette Agru. She is Senior Director of Medical Affairs and we talk about what it takes to become a people manager. So amazing conversation. Annette is awesome. She was also on our MSL Talk Live earlier this week, so check that out on LinkedIn. And don't forget to follow on Instagram and check us out on our YouTube channel, which is MSL Talk Podcast.
Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Annette. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Hi, Tom. I'm glad to be here and, just really honestly grateful for the opportunity to talk to you and talk to the audience. So, yes, this is awesome. Thanks, Tom. Very exciting.
And for those of you that may not know, so Annette joined us this week for MSL Talk Live, which was an amazing conversation where we talked about career pathways for MSLs. It was awesome. So if you didn't get a chance to check that out, it's on LinkedIn. You could just search on my LinkedIn. You'll see it in there. But, yeah, check that out. And that was amazing. And you guys are gonna love this. So we are actually going to talk about, how to become a people manager.
And this was a topic that Annette came up with. And, so before we get into that, I'm gonna have Annette, why don't you introduce yourself and where you're from and all that good stuff? Excellent. Thanks, Tom. So, Tom, just in terms of a very brief background and at OG Brew, I'm a PharmD MBA by training. I've been in the pharmaceutical industry for close to 16 years. I've worked for small, midsize, large pharma.
And, you know, one thing I will say about this industry, no 2 days will always look the same. So I'm one of those who that believes every single day there's something to be learned. I think in terms of where I see myself growing, I think as long as you stay hungry and you stay curious, there's always something new you can pick up and learn. But, yes, the pharmaceutical industry is something I think I've I've, I feel really connected to, and I see myself continuing to grow in this space as well.
But, that's me in a very quick nutshell. I live in Maryland, and, yeah, also have, 3 beautiful children, and, married to an awesome guy as well. So that's me in a nutshell, Tom. I love it. We got the we got the 30,000 foot overview. So we're gonna dive into a little more detail because I wanna go into kind of your career history and transition. So let's start. So you began your career as an MSL, or you transitioned from something else into an MSL role? Yeah. Great question.
So for me, Tom, I actually started in the industry as a fellow. I was one of those who did a postdoctoral fellowship with Rutgers. This is back in the day, almost 16 years ago, but that's how I came into the industry. I did a 1 year postdoctoral fellowship with Bristol Myers Squibb. And I remember then working with a couple of the MSLs back in the day with BMS, and I thought to myself, wow, what an exciting profession to be in. These are the folks who have the business acumen.
They've got the scientific acumen as well, and they truly are the face of the company when it comes to the interactions with the KOLs. And also, quite honestly, they're the ones who are the experts with internal colleagues as well. So I was very inspired to go into the MSL route. And once that postdoctoral fellowship was done, I became an MSL with a company in California, Allergan. So that's how I got my first start, actually. Oh, you make it sound way too easy.
So, like, tell us a little bit about how that did you know someone? Did you have a mentor? Right place, right time? Was it networking? Curious as to how you actually made that transition. Yeah. It's a great question. So it's interesting, Tom. Today, every company has an MSL team, and I think it's not as hard perhaps as it was maybe a decade and a half ago. Mhmm. You know, so years ago, everybody wanted MSLs who already had the experience.
So I remembered coming out of the fellowship, looking for MSL jobs, and quite honestly, every job I had applied for at the time said, you're great. You're wonderful. We're looking for somebody with experience. And I remember applying to a company, getting that opportunity, but I couldn't take it because my husband was moving to California. He's got a great opportunity. So I had to turn down that offer, but this is the power of networking.
I remember telling that manager, even though I cannot unfortunately take this offer, if you happen to know of any other company that's looking for somebody like myself, please let me know. And I'm not kidding you, Tom. The following day, he reached out to me and said, Annette, I know somebody who's looking for an MSL in California. This is Allegan at the time. Again, no promises, but apply. Let's see what happens. And, Tom, that's how I applied. I applied. I did my best look forward.
And the manager at the time, who is one of my biggest, mentors, told me, Annette, there were so many people that were actually great fits for the role, but there was something about you. Even though you were the least experienced, there was something about you that made me take notice, and I wanted to give you the opportunity. So, Tom, that's how I got my first job.
It wasn't easy because back then, everybody wanted an MSL with experience, but there's something about bringing your best foot forward, bringing your positivity, bringing your confidence, and and and be also humble quite honestly to say, hey. I'm not saying I have it all. But if you give me time, I will showcase to you that I can bring the biggest impact, not only to you, but to the company. And that's what I did. That's a great story. Amazing.
There's so many people that listen to this podcast that are looking to transition. And there's also a lot of MSLs that are listening to this, thinking about how they can become a people manager. So but before we get to that, it's hard now. It's really hard now for people to break in. But you just there's so many good takeaways from what you just said. I think networking is really important. Putting yourself out there, raising your hand, asking for help and and mentorships.
And the fellowship piece is huge. If you can get a fellowship, I think that that's a great way to make that initial transition. But like you said, you've got to go the extra mile. You have to stand out. You have to give people the reason to hire you. Exactly. Because you're gonna be competing, especially now. It's a very competitive market. You're gonna be competing against other people for sure. You will. You will, Tom. And that's just the bottom line. You have to have a brand. Right.
It's your brand. Yeah. What are you known for? And the more you can command your own narrative for your brand, that's what's gonna set you apart from the pack. Yep. And that brand could be scientific. It could be a degree. It could be, you know, just a certain skill set. There's so many different things that that that play into that. But let's transition into so you get into the MSO role. You're successful in that role.
How did you transition from an individual contributor to a medical affairs leader? Yeah. Yeah. Tom, it's a great question. So I was with, again, this amazing company that I had already highlighted, in California. My husband got another opportunity. So we left California and came to the East Coast, and I unfortunately had to say goodbye to that company because they didn't have an opening in the East Coast. So now I'm looking for a company, and I did find a small company.
They hired me as an MSL, single contributor. And, Tom, I remembered starting, in this company. It was an ophthalmology company. There was something I was excited to showcase, which was my hunger for learning. So, Tom, on the 1st day of the job, I jumped in head first, feet first, and I really wanted to command my skill sets around the data. That was going to be how I was gonna set myself apart. So, Tom, I I jumped in, quickly became an expert in the therapeutic area.
And even though I was the newest person on the team, it wasn't just about myself and learning. I wanted to help others around me as well. So I was one of those MSLs that would reach out to people. How's it going? Hey. I learned something really cool. I wanna share it with you. So my whole philosophy is if you know something, pass it on, share it on. It everybody around you better and stronger. So, Tom, this was just the way I naturally acted and and and operated.
And out of the blues, the manager at the time said to me, Annette, we're about to actually, hire a director of MSL, and I want to encourage you to apply. Wow. And I remember thinking, oh, I just I just barely started in this company. I'm kinda 6 months in. There are others, quite honestly, who have been here longer. And the hard thing was there is truly something that you bring to the table, your positivity, your confidence.
You are looking out not just, of course, for one person, but you're looking out for the team. These were all the attributes that she highlighted and said, Annette, this is why I want to encourage you to apply. So, Tom, I applied for the job. I interviewed with a ton of other people, but the opportunity was given to me, and I became a people manager, in 20 2,009, excuse me. Wow. Did it, without even honestly planning for it.
It happened because I was already showcasing the skill sets, and I didn't even know I was, but apparently, I was. So You took the initiative to play the role of a leader and act as a leader and be a leader because that's what leaders do. Leaders act as leaders. And so you took that initiative, showcased your skill set and your abilities and did the role before you had the role. Is that I have the yes.
And, Tom, I like what you just said that sometimes people sometimes think when I get the job, then I showcase the leadership. And the truth of the matter is no. You start to showcase the skill sets now. That's how people can go, ah, she's ready now. Some people are gonna be ready in a year or 2 or 5. But if you're already showcasing this now, then they call it you are ready now for the promotion. And whether you might know it or not, that's what people are looking for in potential leaders.
They're looking for people who can grow, who can stretch themselves, who can take on new responsibilities, who can be adaptable and flexible during times of change, but more importantly, someone who can motivate others, somebody who can influence others. And I tell people, you don't have to be a people manager to know how to influence others. Mhmm. You can doing it now. So that's really what people tend to look for when they're looking to promote someone within their companies.
That's such amazing advice. And, I I mean, I think that anyone out there that's listening, if if you have an ambition to become a leader, a manager, a director, whatever the title might be, it really, this is probably the best advice that you're going to get because there's no nobody there's no barrier of entry. You don't have to be ordained to do this. No one has to give you permission. In other words, you could just start doing this.
Be a mentor, be a leader, help others, stand out, go the extra mile, showcase your abilities. I love this. I think this is amazing. So what other skills do you feel people need to develop and hone and work on as they're trying to get themselves noticed for these types of roles? Yeah. I'm a big believer in you have to stay hungry, hungry for learning. There is something very authentic about talking to other people to learn from them.
I was one of those people that would, you know, join a team and naturally I was drawn to so who are the people within my team that I can learn from? And when I say learn from, it could be anything. It could be learning about work life balance. It could be, of course, learning about the management role. It could be also things like business acumen. They're going to be people within your company that you're going to look up to and honestly be motivated and inspired by. I say take that step.
Be intentional with putting time on calendar to talk to people so you can learn from them. When people know that you are that kind of a person that's continuously learning and growing and soaking up knowledge, who doesn't wanna be around someone like that? Because most likely, whatever you learn, you're gonna pass it on to somebody else so they can be stronger and they can be better. So that's one of the things I know that I still do till today. I want to learn from people.
And I feel like, Tom, what you're doing with your amazing range of podcasts is just that as well. You're helping people. You're keeping people knowledgeable. So just be hungry for knowledge and and seek it and find it. Yeah. So that's another big one. That's amazing. Yeah. And it's it's so true. And I think that there's so many resources that are out there, and available now that I don't think were available, you know, back in the day when you were doing it.
You were just you were just hungry and you found the knowledge on your own. Right? Yeah. And you made yourself stand out. So let's talk about that. How can other people get themselves in the same position as you? Like, what other things did you do to stand out and get noticed? Yeah. So, Tom, I think one of the best ways I would say to kind of set yourself apart is I kinda touched on it a little bit. It's that branding. What is your brand? What are you known for?
When people are behind closed doors and they talk about you, what do you think people are going to associate you with? That's going to be your telltale sign of how you can set yourself apart. For me, Tom, I wanted to be known for quality. I wanted to be that person that if someone heard Annette was working on that, they go, oh, she's got it. Annette's got it. I wanted to be known to be that person who if whatever high or not even a high end project. It could be any project.
But as long as it wasn't Annette's hand, there was gonna be some quality, critical quality associated with it, and that's what I wanted to be known for. And, Tom, that's what I did. It didn't matter whatever the project was. I was going to give my best to it. I'm talking triple check your work, quadruple check your work before you turn it back in. The more you do this and you've learned and you become known for the quality, people begin to trust you.
And when you have trust, that's really what it's about. People want to surround themselves with people that they can trust at the end of the day. And I think for me, Tom, that was something that did help me a ton that I became known for quality and people then begin to trust the quality of work that you bring to the table. Other things that can set you apart, of course, I I I also say impact. What is your impact?
We're all, you know, can stay busy for the sake of staying busy, but when you put whatever it is you put forward, what's the impact for your team? What's the impact for your company? And if you're one of those people that can say, ah, I wanna help with something because I can help bring impact, then that's gonna set you apart. I'll give you a good example. A lot of people, say, wow. How do we help our teams with their learning continuum?
It's one thing to just say, well, I think you should do this. I think you should do that. But it's another thing to say, hey. I can put a framework together for how we can help train this team. I wasn't the trainer at the time, but I put my my head together with the trainer at the time to say, hey. I have some ideas. I have some ideas of how we can help bring our MSLs to this best in class mantra. And this is almost like 10 years ago. Like, a lot of, companies now have training divisions.
The company I was with at the time didn't even have a training division, but it was something about me raising my hand and saying, hey. I wanna help. I'm volunteering, to help and to showcase that I can bring some, you know, transferable experiences here to help this team. So, Tom, these are just some of the examples of ways that you can stand out. Raise your hand, volunteer, be mindful of your brand, be mindful of the quality you bring, and also always think about what's the impact.
What is the impact I'm bringing? That can definitely help set you apart from, again, the pack. Amazing. There's so many good takeaways in that. Like, I don't even I'm not even gonna go back and summarize and unpack it because there's so many good things. I just think that we're just gonna have people gonna have to like rewind and listen to this again. But I think in a nutshell, if you get an A on every test, you're gonna get noticed.
And if you bring quality to everything that you do and if you're the go to person and you stand out and you take initiative, you're going to get noticed. And that's the key. And I think a lot of times what people say to me is that I really wanna be a people manager, but I don't have any experience managing people. You just, again, throughout the course of this conversation, have explained that you could start doing the role without having the role. Exactly. Yep. Exactly.
Yep. And that's the best way to prove that you can quickly absorb the functionalities of the role. I'll be very honest with you, Tom. There are people who have been people managers, but that doesn't automatically mean that you're good at being a people manager. Right. You can have somebody never officially done their role, but they work well with others. They're kind. They're compassionate. They've got something about the way they motivate people.
Like, these are all the skill sets that you can start to hone in. And if you don't have them yet, that's okay. I don't know if you can see the back of my shelf here, but I have so many books, Tom. Yeah. So books. And that's what I had hinted to earlier. If you're in that continual mode of learning, there's so many things you can pick up from, of course, talking to people, but also by reading. Yeah. Influencing that authority. There's so many great books about that.
The 306 Degree Leader, there's so many wonderful books about that. My one of my all time favorites is Speak Up for women leaders who are aspiring to to lead but feeling very doubtful. How can I, you know, speak up and use my voice authentically? There's a wonderful book called Speak Up that, you know, people can can can read up on and and get some tips and tricks. So these are all critical. And I take reading very seriously because I have a You sure do. A lot of books.
Well, and I think that that so that intrinsic, work that you're doing and that work that you're doing, like, let's just say in self improvement, professional improvement, and development is really kind of sort of outside of the organization because you're doing it on your own. That's something that you are taking initiative to do. You're a lifelong learner. You're reading books and you're developing this this knowledge and honing skills.
And but what about what should people be looking for within their company? So like are there management training programs? Are there mentorship programs? Whether it's inside companies or maybe in outside. I know there's a lot of organizations right now that provide these sort of things. So what advice do you have as far as more formal programs? Yeah. It's an excellent question.
And, Tom, this is connected to that amazing, discussion we had earlier this week in the podcast where we had talked about just developmental plans, how everyone should really be in the driver's seat of their developmental plan. And the reason this is important is if you are aspiring to be a people manager and you put that in your people, in your developmental plan, you should have frank and honest conversations with your manager about how do I how can the company help me get there?
So I will say that lots of companies do have leadership courses and leadership programs. Some of these programs are within the US. Some of these programs are are are such that they put them globally where people fly out to the headquarters, wherever that headquarters might be, and you're there for about a week or so having very, intensive, you know, skills or developmental courses. So companies do offer this, and I would encourage folks to ask, probe, talk to HR, talk to your manager.
These programs exist within your companies, and if you don't ask, you probably may not know. So that's one thing. The other thing I would encourage is there are lots of societies these days that do offer great, leadership courses. Everything from MAPS, you name it. There are not a ton out, and I'm not gonna highlight one over the other.
But if you do your research, there are lots of leadership courses that are offered, and I've been known to grant my direct reports, you know, yes, go take a course on the company. It can be expensed. You go take that day or 2 and go learn whatever those skill sets are that you're trying to hone in on. So that's definitely things that, folks should be aware that they exist. Those opportunities do exist. I definitely also wanted to highlight, Tom, mentorship.
I will I will be the number one person to advocate for mentorship. It's one of the biggest things. I would say one of the biggest ways I was able to hone my skills in my role was being able to seek out mentors, people who would be honest with me, people who would say, Annette, wow, I saw you in action at that meeting. I liked how you communicated that. Or Annette, hey, great job, but there were some opportunities to fine tune this and fine tune that.
There was something about finding authentic leaders who are going to allow themselves to be vulnerable with you. If you don't have that sort of a person in your career, in your professional, career, I would say seek one out. And it's not just to seek someone out, but you've gotta build that relationship with that person where you're saying, wow, I'm seeking you out to be an authentic, feedback, authentic voice in my journey, someone that can give me honest and candid, suggestions and ideas.
So I would say mentorship, Tom, is so important, and I would encourage folks to see people that you are motivated by, people that you are inspired by. We all have people within our companies that we are, like, respecting. We we like how they present themselves, how they communicate. And I would say stretch yourself even broader than your company. If you know other leaders in other companies, don't be shy. Send them a message via LinkedIn.
Introduce yourself and say, I'd like to please get to learn from you, and you'd be surprised how that can take you great places as well. So mentorship is It sounds like we talk about networking and how important it is for MSLs to to get into the the role to break into the role, but also to develop your career. So it's what you're saying. Networking never stops. Networking happens both internally and externally throughout your career. Is that pretty much what I'm hearing? Spot on.
And that's really it. Look at this as your priority. So a lot of us, you know, as we should, we we we put our heads down. We get the job done. But networking, mentorship should be part of should be part of what you do, you know, and be intentional. So what I tend to do, Tom, I will put reoccurring meetings on my calendar. It could be once a month, every other month, whatever the cadence is with whomever your mentor is, and make sure you're coming prepared to have these great conversations.
Don't just jump on the call and, yeah, shooting the breeze is fine, but come with questions. I wanna get your advice on this situation. The more intentional you are in those conversations, the more you're gonna get back. And then you know it's working when your mentor starts to ask new questions. Hey, Annette. You know what? I'm also getting myself ready for a pretty critical board meeting. I'd like to get your thoughts on this.
And then, you know, wow, we're in a sweet spot where we're each looking at each other as reliable sources of honest feedback. That's when, you know, you're getting to the sweet spot there with your mentors. Yeah. Well, one of the things I think is important.
You actually mentioned this before, but I'm gonna tie it back into this part of the conversation is that when you're in this networking relationship and you're seeking out mentors and you're meeting new people and you're developing these relationships, it's it's a two way street. You have to give back and offer your help to that person. So as you're seeking mentors, as you're seeking advice and seeking help, it's important to stop at some point and say, how can I help you?
I'm so grateful that you've been a mentor. I'm so grateful that we connected and that you've given me advice and you've answered my questions. How can I help you? And maybe maybe there's not much you can do for that person at that moment. But what you wanna do is you wanna make sure that they know that you wanna do something for them at some point in time. Maybe not now, but in the future, you wanna be a good Yeah.
Contact, and a good partner to them in your career whether it's now or in the future. You got it, Tom. I mean, you name it. I've done things such as I read a book. I loved it. I wanna recommend that you read it too. It could be something as simple as that. A lot of times mentors are, yes, maybe a couple of steps higher than you in the in the in the ladder, in the chain, but that doesn't mean that they're not yet also looking for some support in whatever fashion.
I've even offered things like, hey. I took, an awesome course. Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's for a direct report of yours in your company, but it's just little little things that you never know can actually make a difference in your mentors, your mentors' day as well. So, yes, it's an intentional giving back as well. You're receiving, but it's quite awesome amazing to to give back as well. Yeah. Yeah. No. I love this. I love this conversation.
So what other and you've you've just you've done so much. I mean, for those of you guys that don't know and that have never seen her LinkedIn profile or her background, she's just done so much. She's had such a tremendous career. Her career progression and trajectory has just been amazing. So what other advice do you have for people that are looking to grow in their career and develop their careers like you did?
Yeah. It's a great question, Tom. You know, I think for me, I look at my career as a journey, and that's just the the the truth that, you know, when you're on a journey, you don't wanna speed through it. You kinda wanna savor it because there's so many experiences you're gonna get.
For me, there was something about knowing what I wanted to to aspire to do and to be, again, very intentional with ensuring I was getting the skills along the way so that I could actually get to where I hopefully I will get to someday. I'm not actually still there yet, meaning I'm on a journey as we all should be. We're on a journey. One of the things I will say, I knew I wanted to aspire to be a people, people's manager.
So I've in the past, I've managed people, but now I'm no longer managing people. I'm managing the people who manage the people, if that makes any sense. Yes. And that's something I've been very blessed to have done more recently that I'm actually now I've I've had the opportunity to have managed people leaders. It's a whole different ballgame. Because when you're now in that space, it's no longer at all about you. It's about how do you empower others?
How do you empower others so that they also can get the experience that you now have? That's the gift you give to them. So I would I would encourage those who who are people leaders and who are also people people leaders that this is now your moment to help give those people leaders the experience.
And what I and the reason I say that is sometimes you may still feel that inclination to be the doer, and you want to now motivate, encourage others to really be the ones to pick up that baton so they can actually clench that experience. So that's the one thing I know I'm I'm learning and I've learned along this journey.
And other things I've I would say have have helped me a lot, again, for those who are aspiring to have long trajectories in their career, is being again in that space of, I call it humility. I've always been a big believer that you can have whatever title you have, but that does not automatically mean that others are not maybe equally, maybe even more savvier than you are.
So as long as you're bringing a level of humility and you set that tone in your environment, this is a safe place for people to learn, people to bump and stub their toes. In other words, it's a safe place for mistakes to happen. It's okay. Mistakes are part of the journey, and I would love to see more people celebrate, yes, the wins, but also celebrate the challenges and what you did with your challenges. I feel that's equally as important, and not enough of people are hearing that from leaders.
I think everyone feels it has to be the perfection story. I clench that win. I was amazing at it at the first go. I would actually argue that what builds character are the stumbling blocks along the way. So I would encourage people to not be scared of falling, not be scared of tripping, but to say, ah, ah, I tripped, but I learned something from it. And now that I have learned something from it, I'm gonna pass that tip on so others don't have to make the same mistake.
So so, Tom, that's how I live my professional career. And I think for those who are aspiring to have longevity in their in their path, whatever career they pick, that this is something as a people leader you should know who would think about. How are you gonna give back to others? Yeah. We're trying to, yeah, to do. Yeah. And and there's so much that you just said just to, just to go back a little bit is, like, what can you leverage? You can leverage your mistakes.
You can leverage your your learnings and and the times that maybe it didn't go the way that you would have wanted to. But if you package it the right way, that experience is extremely valuable. So you can leverage that. And it sounds like that's something that you were really good at doing throughout your career. Yes. And it comes with a territory. I I do think that I look back at my leadership style from 10 years ago.
It's not the same leadership style today because I've allowed myself to grow and to learn. And I'm a big believer that every single person that I interact with, I'm picking up something from them. You know, either thing I want to emulate or quite honestly something that I say, oh, that doesn't quite work for me. Now I know to stay away from that. Yeah. But there is always something to learn.
And I do feel that for people who are, again, aspiring to be people managers, this is your chance to say, what do I how do I wanna show up? What tonality do I wanna show up with? And then start being intentional with honing those skill sets to clench that. Yeah. And I love that word intentional. It's one of my favorite words.
Would you say, like, as I'm hearing you and as I know your career and we're giving everybody, you know, this great story and this advice, Were did you set goals for yourself? Did you it sounded sounds like you just knew what you wanted to do next. And is that, a, is that correct? Were you very goal oriented? And, b, how important is that for people? Yeah. Tom, I was, and I'm I'm and I'm I'm honest with that. I think there's nothing wrong in being goal oriented and not to be shy to say, yes.
I I do have dreams and I do have aspirations, and I want to learn and grow. So there's, again, that humility part to me. But, yes, being goal oriented, I think, is a wonderful thing. I do think, though, that sometimes you can't map it all out perfectly. Right? There are gonna be times where you may think you know where you're going next, but it may not work out that way.
And this is where people have to allow themselves to stay flexible and not to give up when things don't work out the way they expected it to, and to just appreciate the fact that every left or right turn you take on the journey is actually necessary because it will prepare you for that next best thing that might just be around the corner. But I do think having a goal, having a vision is critical because you now know what you're walking towards.
And then, of course, every now and then, you have those accidental finds of, wow, I wasn't even looking for that, but it just it landed on my lap. But I would actually argue that maybe it didn't land on your lap. You were preparing for it all along. You just didn't perhaps know. But you had all the necessary skills that you had been honing over the years that have made you ready for this right opportunity at this right time in your juncture of your career.
So Yeah. Well, you certainly, you certainly put it all together. So I wanna thank you for all this wisdom. It was exactly what I was expecting and hoping for. I learned a lot. You're amazing, and we have to do this again. And it was twice in 1 week, but I feel like it's not enough. Tom, I'm happy to come back, again again. It's again, my belief is it's great to share, and knowledge is power. And, there's something really great about just passing on your learning.
Even if it helps one person, then it's also, you know, worth it. But, I appreciate the opportunity, and, again, just thank you for the experience. So thanks, Tom. Alrighty. Well, thanks everybody for joining us. You guys have a great rest of your day. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.