Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Donnie Wooten. He is head of global medical excellence at Organon, and we talk about how omnichannel engagement provides strategic value for MSLs. Guys, as you know, omnichannel is the buzzword of the current times right now in medical affairs, so you guys are gonna really love this conversation. It's amazing. Don't miss it. Share it with your friends.
Don't forget to check us out on YouTube and MSL talk live, which is on the LinkedIn live platform once a month, typically 1st Tuesday of every month, and connect with me on LinkedIn if you haven't already. Thanks for joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Donnie. Thanks for joining me, buddy. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me, Tom.
I I'm enjoying what you're doing with this MSL podcast and connecting MSLs all around the world. So it was great seeing you at Mass East too. Thanks, brother. Yeah. It was so awesome seeing you. And, guys, you're in for a treat. Okay? I'm just gonna before we even let Donnie do an intro, I'm gonna tell you how this whole thing came about. I'm at Mass East, which is a conference, and I attended a session on omnichannel engagement. Of course, Donnie was the presenter.
He knocked it out of the park. It was so good that I literally, like, harassed the poor guy when he was done. I'm like, Donnie, you gotta come on, Donnie. Like, alright, Tom. Alright. We're ready to go. So before we get into it, Donnie, why don't you tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? Yeah. I had Global Field Medical Center of Excellence at Oregonon, and I'm been in the field. I've been a field leader. So, I'm excited to talk about this topic.
Yeah. So and I will say, we all know we hear this term omnichannel. I think a lot of people still don't know what it is. I think a lot of people know what it is, but they're not exactly sure how it applies to them. And I think that there are people out there that are using it, but are probably can use your insights and more. So I'm gonna present I'm gonna get going on this in as if nobody knew anything about it. It's a brand new topic.
So if you don't know anything about omnichannel, you're gonna get a crash course. Now when I went to Donnie's session, you, Donnie, you started by talking about the difference between omnichannel and multichannel engagement, and you gave this example of the differences. Can we start there? Because I really got a lot out of that example. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. And and you're right. Omnichannel is a huge buzzword in the industry.
We're hearing it from every congress you go to, every site you visit. And, it is it is something that we're all kinda in that space. You said, like, we're new to it, especially in medical affairs, because it's not really a medical affairs centric approach. It's a, marketing commercial approach that's been around for decades. We're just getting tapped into it because of this whole digital transformation of COVID. But to your point, like, what is it?
Omnichannel is one of those concepts that puts the customer in the center of how you're engaging with that customer. The best way to think about it is multichannel. So multichannel is like what you're doing. Like, you have your podcast, you have your website, you have all these channels that you can engage with your customers or your your, audience. The difference between Omni and Multi is the Omnichannel experience puts it all around the customer and it's synchronized.
So, like, the example I gave when we were at Massey's, if you can imagine, like, a department store, like, a NIMAS, Nordstrom's, Macy, wherever you choose to go, one of the channels that you can engage to get your product is, like, going in their store. But you can go on their website, you can go on their social media, you can see what they're doing on Twitter. All of those are channels that that company has created.
What they've done a better job at now with the, you know, the spin of digital transformation is synchronizing that channel. So when you go to their website and you click that shirt that you like, now when you go to your social media, you see that shirt. Or when you go to their Twitter page, you're getting insights about that shirt all around that experience. Medical affairs is different. Right?
We don't have a product that we're trying to get someone to drive towards, but we have something either like educating or trying to drive scientific gaps. But that whole model is still relevant because you're putting the customer's needs at the center and making sure wherever that customer is engaging with you, rather it be through your people, your medical informations, phone calls, or through your company website, your social media for your company, they all tell a story.
So if that customer sees something and they really wanna learn, they can go write and have that synchronized approach. I love that. Helps. It does. It absolutely helped me. And I think that after I learned that from your session, it's it made me think about this. Maybe start to now that I have a better understanding, how do I fit it into my world, and how do I get to how do I talk to MSLs about it so that if they're unsure or anybody in the industry, how would I describe it?
I think and you tell me. I think the one word if we had to break it down to one word to describe omnichannel, it's personalization. Would that make sense? 100%. It's 100%. And and it's personalized in a in a way, but it's done in a way where you know based off of if you survey your audience, like, you know people who might know about your podcast. You might have people who don't. Or you might have people who are super users. They're always listening. Those are personas.
Like, there's 1, 2, and 3. There are some people who know about omnichannel, some people who don't. They're doing it, and some people are really doing it. That's how they're personalizing it. So that same shirt example, like Mhmm. They've got a model for someone who's also looking at shirts, period. So they build that framework. So you don't have to personalize it to the deep, deep, deep detail of individual, but to the persona that you're mapping out in your strategy.
For instance, if you're launching a product in oncology and you're targeting rheumatologists, how are you strategically segmenting all those customers? And how what do you do to help them get to that information that they want based off of the channels of interest, based off of their desired content of style? And you kinda just navigate them through that journey.
And, ultimately, you wanna get everybody to that final place where they know about your podcast, they know about your sites, or they know about Omnichannel, and they're doing it. Or they know about whatever scientific thing you're doing. MSOs are the linchpin of that. They're the ones that are gonna really provide that engagement journey and know your your providers. They're gonna know their channels they're on. They're they're really a key element.
I I always say, for me, the value of the field is that they're the closest to the patient by way of our connection to the provider. So they're gonna be a huge asset. Yep. It make it really makes sense. Once you understand it, it makes sense. But here's my question. Now that we understand it, what are the benefits to MSLs and to medical affairs organizations through adopting this form of engagement? Huge amounts of benefit.
It's huge amounts of benefit to, like, everyone involved from you and the strategy worlds who are, like, creating your strategy, or to the field person who's engaging with that individual, or the provider themselves. And so for strategically, you put your customer in the center. You know where your customer's going, and you're able to look at that journey. How successful are we being able to, like, move that needle scientifically or whatever it is. You can map that out more harmoniously.
So for the customer I mean, for the internal counterparts, it's huge amounts of value. For the field, field teams gain a lot of value in it too because one of the things that we know is MSL teams often cover huge territories. Not just small zip code territories like their commercial counterparts, but huge. This broadens their reach. This allows them to get to those customers that might be difficult, who who prefers certain channels.
So how do you get those people on that channel that your customer is providing? Also, we do a really good job as an industry standard with deal teams of, like, informing them of what the provider's doing outside of the company. Clinical studies they're working on. What are they tweeting about? But omnichannel, a true omnichentric strategy, allows them to know what's going on about that customer internally.
I can't tell you how many times I've got the the conversation when I was in the field about a doctor saying, do you guys talk to each other? I just met with your your colleague 2 weeks ago. That's if you're building a really good omnichentric journey. You know where that customer is at. You know who's meeting with them. You know who's already met with them. You know where they're at, so you can continue to move them around that continuum.
So huge amounts of value to the MSL being able to know how their providers are interacting with the with the company. When it comes to the KOLs or the HCEs, it's tailored for them. That alone means that you're gonna be providing the right content that they desire, the right channels in which they wanna be on at the right preference, meaning frequency.
Like Mhmm. I shared this when we were at Mass Ease that there's data out there that shows that providers just don't have time to go through the amounts of information that's out there. And grow in chat gpt. You got, like, information overload. You know? So they need the they're looking for it to be a bit more customized, exactly what they need so they can get that information quickly.
And it just obviously, the experience that the KOL gets from this because it's personalized, because it it's a more efficient process, is gonna build that relationship, which is a benefit to the MSL and the medical affairs organization, obviously, because it creates value. But it's also a benefit to the KOL because now they have this trusted resource Wonderful. Which ultimately what's the end goal? The end goal is the patient.
Mhmm. And freeing up time for the KOL to to do what they're supposed to do and spend their time, you know, doing, which is caring for the patient ultimately at the end of the day. So, so this is awesome. I think this is really helpful. I mean, we talk about we always talk about insights and insights gathering. Is this kind of the ultimate tool to help that piece of it as well?
Yeah. I mean, I with with insights, there's always gonna be a core butter and bread of of the world for field medical because of just that connectivity to what you said. Like, the patient the person closest to the patient is the provider. Closest to the patients internally for us is the field. So you're never gonna get, like, just quick insights by googling informations about a patient. Like, you'll get that.
But that real hands on information about them, you're gonna get that directly for someone who's engaging, being, and living, and doing that with them, and and learning from them directly. Now what does this omnitrach strategy do for insight gathering? It it fortifies it. It makes it that much more stronger. So no longer are you just strategically looking at insights on the field level. What insights are you gaining with how these folks are engaging with your content?
What content is most relevant to them? What content is resonating with them? How are you analyzing? What sentiments are you influencing? For instance, if you have someone, if you're launching an immunology product, like I said, and this one's a dermatology product or something, how are you showing that you're moving them scientifically across that spectrum?
Because, ultimately, you know, you want to survey your your your your your customers or your providers and know where they are, like how I told you. We know that people don't know a lot about omnichannel medical affairs. So we survey at MAPS at Mass East, and we asked them 1 question. 1, 2, and 3. 1, are you doing omnichannel? Do you know it? Most people say, nah. We don't. Have you started? Some people said, yeah, and there's very few that said, you know, we're doing it well.
But our goal is to move everyone over to the doing it well. Your yours is gonna be the same thing. You're gonna have segments of providers that if you're launching a product, our goal is to educate them and get them aware, comfortable, and able to use this in the right patient and be able to provide some type of safety around how they do that, and and they feel good. Your goal's gonna be the same to move them across that continuum in a really effective omni strategy as you look at the insights.
You should start seeing things that are illustrating that these people are becoming more informed. They're becoming to take the type of actions that you're anticipating when people become more informed about products and patients for that fit right for that. So I think it's just gonna drive insights in so many different ways and in so many valuable ways to the provider. Yep. And you touched on something. So as you said, you know, some organizations still don't know that much about it.
Some are learning. Some are adopting it. So for the ones that you're seeing that are adopting it, what challenges are they facing right now, or what challenges do you expect people to face when they adopt an omnichannel engagement strategy? I think it's 2 fold. The first part I'll just say for everybody, omnichannel is not a one size fit all. Like, the way in which our company may do it may be totally different from another company.
Because everybody's customers, their products, their desired, you know, target audience is a little bit different. And where they are in that journey themselves, being able to do omnichannel is different. That's the biggest challenge. And with that, if you really think about the principle of omnichannel with the customer in the center and all your channels linked around that customer, that's a that's one of the biggest challenges.
Because you and, oftentimes, in medical affairs, we don't own all those channels. We don't own the Twitter sites. We don't own the Instagrams where our customers may be engaging with us. We don't own the company provider website oftentimes. Sometimes that's often sitting in the commercial side. So how do you influence what you want that experience to be from a medical perspective is so essential.
So as we talk to some companies, that are starting, finding out that are they partnering with their commercial colleagues because they're probably already ahead and making sure you're influencing what that experience should look like when they engage with a channel that's a medical channel or a medical, you know, message that you're trying to get across. That's the biggest challenge. The cross functional excellence is the biggest challenge to start.
For people who probably are doing it more and and better, privacy. Privacy and compliance around data, that's the bigger challenge down that line too. It's because if as you go around the globe, the way you meet the channel preferences of providers in the US are totally different when we go to LatAm or those Latin markets where they use WhatsApp a lot. Or if you go to China where they use this channel called WeChat.
Those are very different ways you're gonna engage with your customer or the provider and the how. Like, what are the regulations around those, oftentimes, or things that people have to figure out. So that's where I'm seeing the challenges now in our group as the I I I I don't know if I shared this, but I sit on a a FOG for MAPS. It's called medical affairs professional society FODSPILLED working group. Mhmm. And I support the omnichannel.
So all this I'm sharing is the work of many, many folks trying to figure this out. Yeah. Well and it's interesting. Just like anything else, it's a paradigm shift. Anytime you change things, there's gonna be growing pains. There's gonna be, you know, learning curves. So this is not unlike anything other you know, any other thing that we've seen, that strategic that causes a change in how we transact business for for lack of a better explanation.
So I appreciate you telling us about what the challenges are. So let's talk about the companies that are like, okay. Okay, Donnie. I'm on board. I got it. Mhmm. I I wanna do this. So now what would you recommend to them as far as where do they start? Mhmm. Mhmm. That's a good question. Like, where do you start, with Omnichannel? Once you kinda peruse your organization and see where your organization is at, that's the first place. Like, know who's doing it already.
I think the the best what you what we're seeing now, we're seeing a lot of roles pop up around, like, omnichannel, digital. And all of this is linked digital content strategy and channels. All of this is linked to omnichannel. Understand where your company's trying to go. And I think the best way for folks to start is build a framework within their business that supports their ability to execute an omnichannel strategy. So that means getting all the right stakeholders involved across the aisle.
And I think that's a mindset shift, as you said, paradigm shift that we have to change in medical affairs. This this concept that we're talking about is a commercial concept. Like, they got it. They know it. Like, learn, leverage, and influence because what we do is so different than what they do. So it's important that we understand where they are and what they're doing so that the providers don't get a different experience when they're engaging across that.
Perhaps what they're trying to do might be different, but the how and what they should resonate from what we're all trying to do should be similar. Like, you know, you shouldn't go to one site and get a totally different understanding about a product, and then go to another site and it's a totally different one. If it's one the same product, it needs to be, in a way comprehensive. I think that's first. Figure out where your company is at, and then 2, really focus on what you're trying to do.
You'll you'll listen to a lot of audio books or go and read any books on Omnichannel. They gotta tell you, like, start small. Like, figure out how you can perfect all of what you're doing so that way you're not tied into so much going on at once. Like, figure out which one strategic objective you want to meet. Who's the right person for that? Meaning, your customers, your providers, segmenting them. What is the right channels that you wanna be on?
Meaning, mapping out all those channels that you wanna engage. What's the right content? What is and how do you create that content? So make all those stakeholders involved. And then what is that customer experience? You'll hear this word called CDX. It means customer experience. Like, how does your customer experience and you wanna build that out, like, that engagement journey for that customer. And a part of that engagement journey is gonna be your MSLs and how they know about that provider.
Move them towards that. And finally, just always looking at your outcomes. How are you measuring and pivoting back to your strategic objective to make sure you're hitting it? So first, figure out who's doing it in your business. Get that core concept team together. Focus on what are you strategically gonna do, and then build it out with those 5 essential things.
Right person, right content, right channel, right cadence, meaning how frequent are you interacting with these people, and then the right outcome. Awesome. Alright. Now that we're we're getting somewhere because now we're put putting all these pieces together before I get into the MSL piece. So then who would you say, now that we have that strategy, who should own it? And let me add a little more to that.
I'm starting to see, as you said, there are positions being created in organizations, larger organizations, you know, director of omni omnichannel engagement. Right? So now, obviously, that person owns it. But what happens if it's a smaller company or a midsized company that maybe they don't have a big excellence department, a big training department? It's a smaller organization, but they need to do omnichannel engagement. Who should who do you think should own that?
I think it's I I think that's that's gonna for sure be the conundrum that we're always trying to solve for. But I think, principally, across the omni strategy, Mhmm. No one owns it. Like, we're all sharing that, and we're just trying to own our experience and connect that experience with all the other owners. Corporate comms is gonna own a lot of those those external sites that you're on. You know? Commercial's gonna own just as much interaction with that provider as your MSL team. You know?
The content that they see is gonna be very, you know, owned commercially if they're driving what that content is or if you're driving it from the medical. So I think that's gonna be the the the conundrum. I I truly don't think we own any. Like, none of us truly own. We own parts of it. And we just wanna make sure all the parts tell the right story. So when they get to our part, it makes sense, and they fully understand what they're trying to execute.
And that's just gonna take a lot of cross functional excellence, cross functional collaboration. And, I do believe, wholly, that the MSLs play a huge role in in the success of this. So in terms of owning if it's resonating, like, it's gonna be the MSLs.
Like, the same way that they have that scientific dialogue about, you know, whatever therapies or data or studies they're rolled out, Their digital skills, their training, their capability, they gotta go up too because they're gonna have to start having conversations with providers about how to move them, not just in this PowerPoint presentation I'm giving, but to move them to another channel that might be beneficial for them. And I I had a conversation with you before I got on.
I had to download Zoom. You know? Those are things that they're gonna also be responsible for. It's like ensuring that that engagement experience for that provider is seamless, and they know how to travel through your omni strategy. Yep. Yep. It's, we're moving fast, man. We're moving fast. Mhmm. So let's talk about the MSL. So now you have this coming to the MSL level, obviously. And what advice do you have for these folks, the MSLs that are now starting their omnichannel engagement?
What could you tell them and how they approach it? Yeah. I would certainly say be open. Be open to learning a new skill. When it comes to COVID, it expedited us all into this digital transformation. And I know a lot of of MSLs aren't always comfortable with, you know, new digital tools. You know? Sometimes one of the challenges that you'll find with Omni is that you gotta have content.
And a lot of times, like, MSLs, we'll go in and have a conversation that's salient enough to get the point across. But we know that content drives, you know, confirmational awareness. Like, they see it, they saw it, they got it type thing. So being comfortable using whatever tools your companies are trying to put in place to enable you to have those conversations with providers like your CRMs, your medias. I would say be open. But also be in control.
Like, I think for folks who are interested in the MSO role, this digital transformation just expedites your ability to show you can connect with these folks. Know where your providers are. Like, follow them. I I I I'm used to do this as MSO many years back. You know, privacy laws or rules weren't in place, but we knew, like, we couldn't engage on these channels. But my providers would follow me on Facebook. They would follow me on LinkedIn, and I'd follow them back.
And I know what they're doing. So if you're aware of what they're doing, how they're engaging, say you're a potential MSL, You might not be going into the office and calling on these documents, but you could be following these individuals that seeing who they are and mapping out that experience. MSLs now in their current role too could do that. I would say, consider where we're going and making sure you're able to meet the need for the future.
Like, the MSO role has tremendously evolved, and I think it's just gonna continuously as evolve as we, as a society, engage in more ways like this than in person. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. But I also think, as I'm listening to you, I and I I I wholeheartedly wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. When it comes to the MSLs, I think one of the things that's gonna be important, and you tell me how or you add to this, how important is it going to be to ask the right questions?
Because in order for you to personalize your engagement and personalize your strategy per KOL, you have to find out what it is that they want. So how different does that make the probing or the importance of questions and being a good listener? Because we know it's always important. But how much more important and what do you have to say about the MSOs responsibility to uncover the specific needs of each KOL? Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question and point to make it.
And and I'll answer it 2 ways. 1st, I think the MSOs are profilers. That's who they are. Like, we profile customers. We understand. We get to learn them, and we get to make sense of where they are. So they're going to be the ones that help understand the customer, the providers at that very ground level. When it comes to the MSO role, they're very familiar with that 7 step process called the scientific engagement model, where you pre call plan. You know, you build rapport. You discuss the data.
You answer questions, and then you post visit analysis. Although, they know that. How you weave that in to start getting more insightful about the customer is gonna be important. As you're pre call planning, thinking about what channels this customer on, when you're building that rapport, confirming that this is the preferred channel, how would how would they want to engage? Weeding that into your scientific dialogue, I think, is gonna be most beneficial.
What you'll find is that a lot of companies on the commercial side of this, they do focus groups. They know these customers. They do marketing app. They know cost like, our commercial colleagues spend a lot of money and time getting to know the customer's behavior. We do a lot of focus on understanding their scientific acumen, what they're trying to do, and helping support that. But this is where we get to lean in a little bit more.
So I think the MSL is gonna play a big role in understanding who that provider is as it relates to your omni strategy, how they want to engage with you, what type of information they want, and where do they want it, and how do they want it to look and feel. Yep. Yeah. It's big responsibility. That's why, thank God, all the MSLs listening to this are all superstars. Superheroes of pharma. Yes. Of course, I'm your biggest fan. You guys know that. I'm your savvy. What?
So what other what other ways does this drive value? Before we close out, there's such a there's such talk about this. This is one of the oddest topics I've seen in a long time. So what other ways would you say that this drives value? I mean, it drives value in so many ways. 1, it it it it addresses that age old question. If you're really doing the the omni centric strategy, it it it answers that question that providers ask. Are y'all talking to each other? You know?
It it it makes that customer feel as if we're taking their concerns for in center, and they can see it and feel it because this is how they wanna see it and feel it. So it drives that deep rapport building with you, your company, and the people working in your company.
Now, data wise, the reason that some companies who have a product at the end, meaning, like, that example I gave you with Nordstrom's or the big department stores, they see a larger return on their investment, you know, doing this type of, approach. For instance, like, if we were looking for that shirt, I keep seeing it in my email. I keep seeing it here and there. At some point, I'm gonna either take action or go into that, that journey they're trying to take me on.
So they see a huge return on their investment. So this is just the way that the that the the industry has shifted. It's shifted towards a digital way. So people are online more than they are and and just out in person and experiencing. So the better and the easiest way you can connect them to what they're seeking online is the more success you're gonna have.
And so if you're recruiting for a study and you're only recruiting through your normal modalities and you got providers who are looking for, you know, studies on Twitter or something like that. Like, how are you getting to your audience in the ways and the places and spaces that they're in? So I think it brings huge amounts of potential return on investment for how we are scientifically engaging and the share of voice that we have with our customers.
Yeah. And then just I mean, out of curiosity, as I'm hearing you speak about this, like, is this being tracked? Is there are there KPIs around this and metrics around this? What and what is your experience with that? Yeah. I think I think that's another place where we're gonna see and continue to evolve. It's like, how do you show what your ROI? How do you track your key performance? Now there are some things that you can do simply that we're already doing.
Like, you know, if you wanna build rapport with someone, you know, you wanna track that engagement. So our our our field teams, they enter that in the CRM. But how will your customers or providers engaging with you on those other channels? Like, if you're doing something on YouTube, are you looking at that the traffic? Like, you shared with me one of your most successful, you know, podcasts. You looked at the number of visits, the number of watches you had.
Like, where are you posting that content? How many people are viewing it? What is that the the click through rate of an email campaign you might run just to get people? Or what is the, you know, the time spent on a particular part? Because that's gonna inform your next component for next year when you're planning out, like, oh, we see that folks really, you know, wanna focus on these types of resources, so you put funding. So it helps kinda align that as well.
But I think we'll continue to evolve in how you set those strategic KPIs that match what you're trying to, you know, succeed in that strategic objective of yours. But I think it'll continue to evolve, but there are some very simple things that are already in place, like content mapping, engagement journey mapping, like those types of things. I think it's gonna make it a little bit easier.
I think one of the things that's been a challenge with metrics is the the age old debate of qualitative versus quantitative. But to be able to finally, for MSLs, have some some tangible statistics that can be tracked, like you just talked about, as far as impressions and views and clicks and downloads and whatever else.
If there is if we get to that point, could be just another thing to add to the equation to show value and to show performance and show effort and how good people are at doing this. So I think that just that alone shows the importance to the MSL and why you need to adopt this and be really good at it. You know what I mean? Mhmm. 100%. I I I totally agree with you. The and I saw a role, like like you said, like, they're your number one fans. They're my number one fans.
That's my job is to enable and empower them because of that that responsibility they have for the scientific community and the providers. But we also know there's data that shows when people interact with MSLs, there's favorable data that show that that individual, that provider shares that with someone else, that connects that MSL with someone else. And that provider does something against the information shared.
So I think the MSLs are gonna be huge, huge, huge components, and their ability to just weave this into their already existing work is gonna be important because I feel like we're all working 2 jobs now in the digital age too because now you can you have so much access to folks. So to make it easier on them that we then enter that day to day job is gonna make it that much more successful for a field team. Awesome, man. I I knew this was gonna be good. I knew it was gonna be good.
That was, like, the fastest 30 minutes of my life. Oh, man. Thank you, man. You crushed me. Appreciate you coming on. That's amazing. Let's do it again sometime. I'm here. I'm here. Thanks so much for them. I can't wait to see you soon. Yeah, man. You're the best. Hey, guys. Thanks for listening. Go take this out into your KOL communities and crush it. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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